Ban on organ trading entirely irrational
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It's very hard to change appointments once it's fixed.Originally posted by LinYu:ST Forum 19 Jan 2007
MY FRIEND'S mother, who had been having diarrhoea for the past month despite seeing a GP, was given a referral to Singapore General Hospital (SGH) by Choa Chu Kang Polyclinic on Tuesday. However, she could be seen only on May 11.
My friend tried to get an earlier date for her mother, without success. She was concerned because a change in toilet habits might signal a more serious problem like colon cancer, to which she lost her father.
My friend called the hospital and was told the appointment book was full, and when she asked about alternatives, was advised to either call at the emergency department or call every day to check if there was any cancellation of appointment.
Why is the wait so long?
Gladys Tan Sok Hoon (Mdm)
Let be quote "this will not happen in Singapore" when the MAN was in UK with his spouse
The only way to jump queue, as I always do, just go straight to A&E and argue. -
we may end up to be like SGH if noit seeing specialist, you have to wait for 4 months before doctor even see youOriginally posted by Lowclassman:NTUC may not be able to handle this multi-billions dollars business. Thus, tomasick might have to be involved. When this day comes.....we peasants might have "some" shares of profits made from farming and trading of human Organs by tomasick.
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you mean the argumentative ppl has his way.Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:It's very hard to change appointments once it's fixed.
The only way to jump queue, as I always do, just go straight to A&E and argue. -
Wait 2 months before getting treated for cancer, the person might have died, depending on what stage of cancer he is at.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Because subsidized consultation and treatment is cheap and everyone crowds the public hospitals, regardless of whether they can afford private healthcare. Doctors get overworked in the public hospitals and are paid less than private hospitals, because Singaporeans want cheaper healthcare so the government cannot raise their salaries. Doctors leave and worsen the shortage...a vicious cycle builds up..
Healthcare has to be rationed. The most serious cases get treated first, the rest have to wait. Come to the UK and you can be waiting 2 months for treatment AFTER the diagnosis of cancer has been confirmed
The alternative is to lower the standard and bring in cheap foreign doctors without the requisite qualifications for public hospitals. (Specialists with internationally recognized qualifications will expect equivalent salaries as western doctors). You can have an early appointment with a foreign doctor or wait for a local specialist in the public hospital. It's your call.
Anyway, this whole thing is very disillusioned. Government teaches us to recognize symptoms early and get treatment early, yet when we need it, need to book appointments, drag this, drag that.
Lower the standard... I'm not willing to compromise on that. It's a person's health and life... -
Not always. Usually, if you have doctor's referral letter, signs or symptoms that indicate something serious, they will let you go through.Originally posted by LinYu:you mean the argumentative ppl has his way.
In Mdm Tan's case, she could do so. Doctor's referral letter, changes in bowel habits...
Still have to wait though, but better than waiting till May 11. -
Ya...people in UK do die before they get treatment. So the British government tried to cut the backlog by paying doctors more for seeing more patients. They fund it by raising taxes and hospitals who cut their backlog get more money whilst those who do badly get their funding cut. Over the past three years, the salaries of GPs in UK have jumped by a third.Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:Wait 2 months before getting treated for cancer, the person might have died, depending on what stage of cancer he is at.
Anyway, this whole thing is very disillusioned. Government teaches us to recognize symptoms early and get treatment early, yet when we need it, need to book appointments, drag this, drag that.
Lower the standard... I'm not willing to compromise on that. It's a person's health and life...
Are Singaporeans willing to pay more in taxes? No, I don't think so.
Get treatment early. Those who can afford it should go to the private sector. There are plenty of doctors who are more than happy to see new patients in private clinics and hospitals. But Singaporeans want healthcare cheap and all flock to public hospitals which are overloaded with work. Do we want doctors to see more patients but spend too little time to give the right amount of attention?
Make a fuss and jump the queue will get you seen earlier, but it means someone else who does not know how to complain will be seen later. The problem is just passed on to some other unfortunate soul.
So the solution is to bring in more cheap foreign doctors with lesser qualifications. But we are not willing to compromise on standards. Why not take in more medical students? We have, but once they qualify as specialists they will leave for private hospitals. My ex-student leaves immediately to work in a private hospital once he qualifies as a specialist and immediately earns more than me as his teacher. How does training more doctors help when the problem is not that we lack doctors, but too many doctors leaving for the private sector.
As long as public hospital charges are so much lower and people are willing to wait 4 months rather than go to the private sector, doctors in public hospitals will be overworked and underpaid. The problem will continue unless we force those who can afford it to seek treatment in the private hospitals. -
Back to the topic...
Like little ant I am against trading in organs. The rich will be able to afford to get organs and the poor will not. That is unfair and unethical.
Some have suggested that the State should pay for organs and then distribute to all based on clinical need, not ability to pay. It is naive. So who's paying for all these organs and who's selling? You must be really poor to be willing to sell your kidney to someone you don't even know and I don't see Singaporeans willing to pay more taxes for the government to buy all these organs.
If you allow trading in organs, we will see most organs coming from the desperately poor in China, India, Burma and Bangladesh. Is that something Singapore should be proud of?
No, I am against organ trading but I do agree we can relax our regulations on live organ donation. If Fiona Xie needs a kidney and thousands of starry-eyed young guys are willing to donate their organs, there is no reason to stop it as long as there is proper counseling. Some of these young chaps may hope she might be so touched as to marry them... -
If the government care about peoples' health, then i don't see a reason why selling of human organ is a crime. If the government can sell its land to foreigners for the casino project, reaping profits and increasing the GST, why is it wrong for people to sell their human organs which will do some good for others who are suffering.
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her view can't be more realistic! if you've money you can buy everything.Originally posted by sir_peanuts:i seriously think the princess doesn't have a realistic view of the real world. -
Why gets so personal?Originally posted by foomwee88:Mamai also dont want her!!! she looks like Brue Lee!!!! -
because it will be the poor who sells the organs and the rich who buys them?Originally posted by bila_prem:If the government care about peoples' health, then i don't see a reason why selling of human organ is a crime. If the government can sell its land to foreigners for the casino project, reaping profits and increasing the GST, why is it wrong for people to sell their human organs which will do some good for others who are suffering. -
if both parties are willing, why not?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:because it will be the poor who sells the organs and the rich who buys them? -
Anyone here wants to sell his or her backside?
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I think the Devil is in the Details.Originally posted by dragg:IN THE Review article, 'To receive, S'poreans must learn to give' (ST, Jan 11), Ms Salma Khalik argued that the Human Organ Transplant Act, which states that specified organs taken from deceased persons can be given only to Singaporeans or permanent residents, is selfish.
This is because if no Singapore citizen or permanent resident is waiting for an organ, it cannot be harvested, even if there are foreigners who need it urgently.
A Ministry of Health (MOH) spokesman responded by saying that 'We don't want to be seen as doing a tourist trade in organs. We don't want to see a waiting list of foreign patients.'
Ms Khalik had earlier pointed out that Singaporeans have no qualms getting organs from abroad. I would go further.
The MOH spokesman's explanation is politically correct. Organ trading is frowned upon and usually not allowed in countries where political correctness reigns. However, it is entirely irrational and medically incorrect.
No one is harmed by harvesting an organ for transplant into a foreigner needing it desperately when there is no potential local recipient.
On the contrary, a life is likely to be saved. Whether money changes hands is irrelevant. If a person needing an organ transplant is willing to pay for it, what is wrong in us allowing this, so long as Singaporeans and permanent residents take priority over foreigners?
To go further, our law which prohibits live-donor organ transplant whenever there is a contract or arrangement is irrational.
Healthy people can live with one kidney or after having part of their liver removed. If monetary incentive makes a potential living donor more willing to save another life, what is wrong in allowing that?
What is important is that a competent doctor must have assessed and determined that the potential donor's health is not at risk when he gives away the required organ or part of it.
Once that has been confirmed, whether the living donor is doing it from the goodness of his heart, or because he needs money desperately, the fact is that another life is saved.
So long as the donor is fully appraised of the risks and consents voluntarily, who are we to decide for him?
Some years back, a TV personality was allowed to receive part of the liver of her fiancee, yet an Indian woman in a similar dire situation was not allowed to receive a transplant.
This probably was because it could not be confirmed then that there were no commercial considerations involved. So that poor woman died.
This contrast is ethically very muddy. It should not happen again.
Dr Lee Wei Ling
National Neuroscience Institute
NO REASON FOR BAN
If a person needing a transplant is willing to pay for it, what is wrong in us allowing this, so long as S'poreans and PRs take priority over foreigners?
There is no first principle reason why organ trading MUST necessarily lead to a scenario where the rich benefits and the poor suffers.
Risks and fear associated with the transplant procedure will help discourage many potential organ sellers. Layers of regulation can be imposed to minimize impact to the poor.
However, idealism aside, such legal details will have limited precedent in the international community. Organ trading law itself will be a risky legal innovation, unless we wish to copy countries which currently permit organ trading.
Such bastions of human rights and compassion they are. -
I REFER to the recent debate on the sale of human organs.
While there are many forms of organ transplant, kidney and liver transplants would be the two most viable and much needed that would be carried out under a legalised human-organ trade.
A check with the Ministry of Health website revealed that there are approximately 600 people waiting for a kidney transplant every year. Every year, patients die because they are unable to get a suitable transplant.
The demand for organs is compounded by the shortage of organs. Currently, under the Human Organ Transplant Act (Hota) and the Medical (Therapy, Education and Research) Act (MTERA), cadaver transplants are carried out. However, only 53 cadaver kidney transplants were carried out in 2005. Even taking into account the 43 live-donor transplants, it still falls short of the required number.
Already, many Singaporeans have gone overseas for transplants, and the article, 'Allow the sale of human organs?' (ST, Jan 1
, mentioned that 'Singapore bans organ trading, but it supports people who go elsewhere to buy an organ by giving them subsidised drugs on their return.'
What are the implications here? When we are allowed to buy organs overseas, why should we be disallowed from selling them?
What is the alternative solution to the problem of organ shortage, if we are against the trade in human organs?
In my opinion, Singaporeans need to more willing to donate their organs to those in need. They should not be opting out of Hota, and should pledge their bone marrow more readily under the bone-marrow transplant programme.
However, if cadaver organs are still insufficient even if no one opted out of Hota and all Singaporeans opted into MTERA, do we still have reason to ban organ trading while patients continue to die every year, and some Singaporeans go overseas to buy organs for transplant?
Chew Yun Zhi -
If it is not for money,who wants to sell his organ?Originally posted by shade343:Whats wrong with selling your organs? Its a fundamental belief from everybody that your body is your asset. So what is wrong with selling your assets?
Singapore is a developed country,do u mean there are ppl who are so poor that they have to sell organ to survive?If that is the case,don't u think something is wrong with this country?
Everyone should be equal.So selling organ is wrong. -
If both parties are willing, why not legalize prostitution? If both parties are willing, why not legalize morphine and heroin? If both parties are willing, why not allow women and children to be bought and sold? If both parties are willing, why not allow someone to sell himself into slavery? If Lowclassman wants to sell his backside and someone wants to buy, why not?Originally posted by vito_corleone:if both parties are willing, why not? -
prostitution is LEGAL in sg. i m talking abt the houses in geylang, not freelancers. gahment wants a share of the profit man. as long as hooker declare n pay taxes den its legal.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:If both parties are willing, why not legalize prostitution? If both parties are willing, why not legalize morphine and heroin? If both parties are willing, why not allow women and children to be bought and sold? If both parties are willing, why not allow someone to sell himself into slavery? If Lowclassman wants to sell his backside and someone wants to buy, why not? -
if organ trading is allowed, then who will donate?
if i m dying, then obviously i will rather sell my organs den to donate after my death. extra cash for family
wat will happen to the poor? they wont be able to afford it
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i am sure not all donors are poor. and not all donors want money.Originally posted by menoob:if organ trading is allowed, then who will donate?
if i m dying, then obviously i will rather sell my organs den to donate after my death. extra cash for family
wat will happen to the poor? they wont be able to afford it -
One of this day will come. SG will tax heavily on prostitutes.....To stop illegal prostitution...easy lah...deploy more police and anti-vice on whole singapore.
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The prostitutes in geylang are allowed to operate so long as they come for their regular checkups for sexually transmitted diseases and have their 'yellow cards' stamped. The authorities make regular visits and if they fail to show their yellow cards or did not turn up for their checkups, they can be arrested. This is a compromise to ensure that they are not driven underground and makes it easier to monitor them for STDs and treat them early.Originally posted by menoob:prostitution is LEGAL in sg. i m talking abt the houses in geylang, not freelancers. gahment wants a share of the profit man. as long as hooker declare n pay taxes den its legal. -
All the pimps and whores will run when they see the police in uniform. Use STOMP instead. Photograph the prostitutes, pimps and their customers to post on STOMP...will be really effective.Originally posted by Lowclassman:One of this day will come. SG will tax heavily on prostitutes.....To stop illegal prostitution...easy lah...deploy more police and anti-vice on whole singapore. -
double post
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A pramagtic suggestion
Based on the reality & to help those patients,i suggest the govt allow foreigners (those who work here are not included) to sell organ here.Since S'poreans can go overseas to buy organs,it might as well let them to sell their organs here.
The govt & the society should take care of any individuals,so S'poreans should not be allowed to sell thier organs.