You need chair? I don't care!
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did she tell him he wants the seat?
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Good. You accepted the fact that it's society's fault and societal norms that dictates the action of this person.Originally posted by fymk:Cool it people.
In my opinion, the blame cannot be placed all on the government. The government policies may be linked (and disliked by me) but it does not present a direct causal effect on the outcome. It can also be argued that there were courtesy campaigns during my time ( anyone remember that smile campaign with that silly looking lion?)
It is the society's fault and the failure of parents to bring up a civil minded person. Societal norms dictate that if it is not your business, you just turn and look the other way - so people don't bother unless it is an accident and they want to buy 4D numbers off the carplate then it becomes their business to be busy bodies. Another norm involves expecting someone to take the initiative instead of asking directly for something because the person did not want to seem rude. But if they expect and their expectations fall short even though THEY NEVER BOTHER TO ASK-- they will whine like this woman did.
However the fault cannot be laid totally on the society because you still have considerate Singaporeans around who would gladly do the right thing when it happens in front of them.
So we can only conclude that it is more of the result of the upbringing and societal norms. People who don't ask and expect to be given something ,as well as People who just look the other way.
What governs society and societal norms?
Abstract from Sociology by Macionis & Plummer:
This chapter investigates the dynamics of power, the ability to achieve desired ends (often despite resistance from others), and focuses mainly on it as a process within societies and among nations. Formal politics is the social institution that distributes power, sets a society's agenda, and makes decisions; and governance is the exercise of political, economic and administrative authority in the management of a country's affairs at all levels. -
Originally posted by maurizio13:
Societal norms and societal agendas are far different. Definition of a norm states that "a behavior or belief that is considered typical of a community " . The definition of an agenda is " item/s to be acted on " . No way does it say that formal politics is involved in creating a norm . Influencing perhaps but not creating.
Good. You accepted the fact that it's society's fault and societal norms that dictates the action of this person.
What governs society and societal norms?
Abstract from Sociology by Macionis & Plummer:
This chapter investigates the dynamics of power, the ability to achieve desired ends (often despite resistance from others), and focuses mainly on it as a process within societies and among nations. Formal politics is the social institution that distributes power, [b]sets a society's agenda, and makes decisions; and governance is the exercise of political, economic and administrative authority in the management of a country's affairs at all levels.[/b]
A norm gives a person a rule of thumb for how she should behave and how others will act in a similar situation. An agenda is more of a action to be taken on a plan.
I say the society and family is to be blamed : less on the society but MORE on the family upbringing. -
Sometimes I feel that in a society like this, you've gotta stick up for yourself... My younger sis recounted this incident on an MRT a few yrs back and we had a good laugh over it. She was weary and in a foul mood that day.
When she boarded, there was only 1 empty seat.. just as she was about to sit down, a strange woman (who boarded the train behind my sis), then used her bag and threw it onto that seat to "chop" it for herself!! My sis said since there was no point scolding the woman, she simply ignored her, swept the bag onto the floor, and took the seat for herself. The other commuters were stunned at 1st, but some started snickering. The strange woman merely glared, retrieved her bag, and hurried off to another part of the carriage.
I'm not trying to say people should just take all matters into their own hands.. it's just that I feel most Singaporeans don't get what we want because we're too soft, too timid. -
Originally posted by spinsugar:Sometimes I feel that in a society like this, you've gotta stick up for yourself... My younger sis recounted this incident on an MRT a few yrs back and we had a good laugh over it. She was weary and in a foul mood that day.
When she boarded, there was only 1 empty seat.. just as she was about to sit down, a strange woman (who boarded the train behind my sis), then used her bag and threw it onto that seat to "chop" it for herself!! My sis said since there was no point scolding the woman, she simply ignored her, swept the bag onto the floor, and took the seat for herself. The other commuters were stunned at 1st, but some started snickering. The strange woman merely glared, retrieved her bag, and hurried off to another part of the carriage.
I'm not trying to say people should just take matters into their own hands.. it's just that I feel most Singaporeans don't get what we want because we're too soft, too timid.
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I didn't equate societal norms with society's agenda, we know it's different.Originally posted by fymk:Societal norms and societal agendas are far different. Definition of a norm states that "a behavior or belief that is considered typical of a community " . The definition of an agenda is " item/s to be acted on " . No way does it say that formal politics is involved in creating a norm . Influencing perhaps but not creating.
A norm gives a person a rule of thumb for how she should behave and how others will act in a similar situation. An agenda is more of a action to be taken on a plan.
I say the society and family is to be blamed : less on the society but MORE on the family upbringing.
My original post:
What governs society and societal norms?
Abstract from Sociology by Macionis & Plummer:
This chapter investigates the dynamics of power, the ability to achieve desired ends (often despite resistance from others), and focuses mainly on it as a process within societies and among nations. Formal politics is the social institution that distributes power, sets a society's agenda, and makes decisions; and governance is the exercise of political, economic and administrative authority in the management of a country's affairs at all levels.
What is an agenda?
[According to Merriam-Webster]
Main Entry: agen·da
Pronunciation: &-'jen-d&
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, neuter plural of agendum, gerundive of agere
1 : a list or outline of things to be considered or done
2 : an underlying often ideological plan or program
- agen·da·less /-d&-l&s/ adjective
An agenda is an underlying often ideological plan or program.
Doesn't this show that the society's agenda affect the societal norms? -
some old pple are really farked up, on the bus also take up 2 seats and refuse to allow other passengers to sit.
but then again they only have a moral and not legal obligation to give up the empty seat -
Maybe they should enact a law, fine for those who don't give up seats to others who need it more than you.Originally posted by vito_corleone:some old pple are really farked up, on the bus also take up 2 seats and refuse to allow other passengers to sit. but then again they only have a moral and not legal obligation to give up the empty seat
Hahahaha
Everything in Singapore is enforced by law (spitting, littering, etc), left to our own devices we will probably................... -
Basically, there are some who will do the ethical thing.
But as I pointed out before, it is the general characteristics of living in a "No Free Lunch" society. -
Agree, it's a "No Free Lunch" society here, like the not so recent issue of the girl being stabbed in public, yet nobody steps out to help. They were busy taking video so they can post it on the net.Originally posted by ShutterBug:Basically, there are some who will do the ethical thing.
But as I pointed out before, it is the general characteristics of living in a "No Free Lunch" society.
Everything here is determined by monetary value, that's the kind of society the government imposes on us. -
No, our gov did not imposed on society, but they have however unwittingly or not, raised a society in which every act is based on monetary values.Originally posted by maurizio13:Agree, it's a "No Free Lunch" society here, like the not so recent issue of the girl being stabbed in public, yet nobody steps out to help. They were busy taking video so they can post it on the net.
Everything here is determined by monetary value, that's the kind of society the government imposes on us.
Calculative & exacting, financially motivated, & self-preserving. Which mirrors the very chracteristics of our gov and their policies...
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It is regrettable that our own local people react in this manner. Such an incident would seldom be replayed in a more developed country.
These are times when i believe we should adopt a more 'aggressive' approach in handling matters. Another commuter should have intervened and either offered his/her seat or told the old man off. The level of civic-apathy is truly disgusting. -
Photograph the man's face lor and post on STOMP. Name and shame...that will work.
I bet if you take your camera out and openly photograph him, he will move aside his things... -
she say excuse me if you had read the article properlyOriginally posted by dragg:did she tell him he wants the seat? -
Most Singaporeans have the entitlement attitude as if the world owes them a living.
there are lots of old folks who would not sit, there are also preggies who do not ask for seat. There are lots of youngsters who fight for a seat with people who need them. There are lots of younsters who would turn a blind eye and play with their toys when lots of tired, worn out, people old, pregnant or whatever stand around them. Well, expect more of these kind of pictures in STOMP in future.
Seriously, If she is so in need of a seat, she can lift the bag off and put it on the floor. She didn't do anything to help herself beyond asking and expecting people to give way. Anyways, the old guy is entitled to ignore her.
Just met a aunty, saw me coming towards the lift athough she's already there. She rather not lift her hand and press for the lift. She waited for me to press for her as if I am the lift operator. She got in and expected me to ask her for her floor and proceeded to stand at one corner until she saw I was not going to bother. Then she come forward to press it herself.
TIS: this is singapore. What did anyone of you expect? -
This is why i hate old men nowadays...Grrrr...They are not only inconsiderate but super rude!
I was walking along a street and then "BAM", an old man ram right past me and he look ard and stare at me...(=_=) Not a single apology... -
so it's her own fault for being shy and not doing more than asking for the seat while it is perfectly fine for the old guy to be so inconsiderate?Originally posted by mistyblue:Seriously, If she is so in need of a seat, she can lift the bag off and put it on the floor. She didn't do anything to help herself beyond asking and expecting people to give way. Anyways, the old guy is entitled to ignore her.
i agree that no one is obligated to give up their own seat but putting some stupid stuff on an empty seat is downright inconsiderate and wrong. -
old men in cars are worse. They think they build the road you walk on even if you have the right of way on a crossing.Originally posted by Wanjing83:This is why i hate old men nowadays...Grrrr...They are not only inconsiderate but super rude!
I was walking along a street and then "BAM", an old man ram right past me and he look ard and stare at me...(=_=) Not a single apology... -
Did I assign any blame?Originally posted by UandMe:so it's her own fault for being shy and not doing more than asking for the seat while it is perfectly fine for the old guy to be so inconsiderate?
i agree that no one is obligated to give up their own seat but putting some stupid stuff on an empty seat is downright inconsiderate and wrong.
Did I condone anyone's action?
There are aunties who does what I said and take up a seat. If fact, they had rudly throw other people's packages on the floor. Is the aunty wrong or is the person who left his stuff on the seat wrong?
Its just is. People react differently why do people always expect other people to react/know according to some unwritten 'rules'. Besides, the train does not look too packed. The girl don't have to get all worked up over one old person who didn't give up the seat. Move on to look for the next empty seat lah. By hanging around there and taking pictures just tell me that the woman also cannot let go. You mean in a day, you do not meet any transgressions.
Nowadays, Singapore people just must win at all cost, feels that they are better than the next person and cannot let go and move on. Is not giving a seat, even to a preggie such a big deal that a picture is taken and posted?
Such a lack of grace. -
Yea! Even worse de is those pedestrains tat are old ppl...Red Man liao still can purposely walk slowly lor...If its coz they old then walk slow can understand...But they purposely de...My fren had to Rev his engine at him sia...I guess they must be feeling proud that they are old sia...(=_=)Originally posted by mistyblue:old men in cars are worse. They think they build the road you walk on even if you have the right of way on a crossing. -
there doesnt seem to be a solution to this problem
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stay rational. this is not a govt affair lah. we singaporean should just take a look at ourselves in the mirror. whether we are pretty on the outside and ugly on the inside.
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Solution is simple ma...I agree with misty blue in as much as a commuter can always ask the old man to remove his stuff. If he does not not, just throw the bag on the floor and take the seat lor.Originally posted by confusedboi:there doesnt seem to be a solution to this problem -
She should just remove the plastic bag , give it to the uncle and sit down =)
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excuse me, to a lot of people, means only excuse me.Originally posted by ghimpheng:she say excuse me if you had read the article properly