NS challenge question - something I read .
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www.sfdonline.org/Link%20Pages/Link%20Folders/01Ds/061001a.html
Above is a link to the topic. In gist - it is a father who wanted to know if his son was liable for NS if he migrated. Most unfortunately , his son has touched the items which obligated him to be included into NS enlistment so we will read of the unusual challenge from this father. It is not meant to say that his son should not do NS. His son is liable since he touched the 'fringe benefits' .This is just an excerpt:
I wondered what happened in the end...
Dear Madam,
1. Thank you for your reply below.
2. I have copied and pasted your reply to me (below) and used your email address found within your reply to address this email to you.
3. I have also pasted a news article that indicates the depth of a problem found in Singapore, that has cost young lives and blighted almost the entire school-going generation/s.
4. If you people consider the situation serious enough to desire a solution, I have one that will most likely work.
5. However, I have stopped giving free ideas, especially to people still engaged in hostilities towards me.
6. If you want this idea, which will greatly reduce school stress WITHOUT LOWERING THE PRESENT PRESSURE-COOKER STANDARD OF EDUCATION, OR REQUIRING A REDUCTION IN CONTENT OF SCHOOLWORK, then my son must not be liable for national service.
7. I am not interested how this is achieved; whether by allowing a renunciation of citizenship, changing the law on NS as it affects my son, or even changing the Constitution. Just do it.
8. After I get what I want, then I will give you what you want.
9. If you are interested, you know what to do.
10. If not, then you and the entire present and future school-going generations will just have to live with your choice.
Regards,
Robert Ho
26 Sep 01
(Below is your reply to me):
Dear Sir,
1. Please refer to your e-mail dated 10 Sep 2001.
2. This is to inform you that as a Singapore citizen, your son is liable for National Service under the Enlistment Act.  The holding of foreign citizenship does not absolve him from the liabilities under the Enlistment Act.
3. Under the Enlistment Act, he is required to register for National Service and apply for an Exit Permit to remain overseas at the age of 16½ years. He is also required for National Service Enlistment at the first opportunity after turning 18 years, unless he is deferred from National Service.
4. Since your son is between the age of 11 and 16½ years, he is affected by the Immigration Bonding Scheme if you are applying for a Singapore passport to enable him to stay overseas. Under the scheme, the parents are required to furnish a bond in the form of a bank guarantee to the Singapore Immigration & Registration. The quantum of the bank guarantee is a minimum of $75,000 or 50% of the total combined annual income of the parents for the preceding year, whichever is higher.
5. At the age the 16½ years, he is required to register for National Service and apply for an exit permit to remain overseas. He can be granted deferment to complete his present course of full-time overseas study provided the required Bank Guarantee is furnished to MINDEF. No further extension of deferment will be granted to him to pursue tertiary education unless he can commence the full-time University course before 17½ years old. The quantum of the Bank Guarantee is as stated above. Once the Bank Guarantee has been furnished to MINDEF, the Bank Guarantee which has been furnished to Singapore Immigration will be released.
6. We hope the above information is useful to you. You could contact Mdm
Tan at Tel no. 3733132 if your have any further enquiries.
Yours faithfully,
Leow Sui Lee (Ms)
Officer Commanding eServices Branch
Central Manpower Base
e-mail: [email protected]
http://www.cmpb.com.sg/
-----Original Message-----
From: MINDEF Feedback Unit To: cmpb Cc: [email protected] Date: 11 September 2001 08:57
Subject: Fw: Feedback via Gov.sg
Dear Officer-in-charge (Central Manpower Base),
Please refer to the email below and kindly assist Mr Ho accordingly.
Thank you and regards
Judy Tan (Ms)
MINDEF Feedback Unit
----- Original Message -----
From: To: Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 8:58 PM
Subject: Feedback via Gov.sg
On 2001-09-10 at 20:57:25,
The following information was submitted:
From Host: 202.156.208.236
name = Robert Ho
country = Singapore
submit_by = [email protected]
message = Dear Sir/Madam,
1. We are a family of three consisting of myself, my wife and a 15 year-old son.
2. We are thinking of migrating to Australia.
3. My son was born on 4 Apr 1986 and is currently in Secondary 3.
4. If we leave after he has completed his 'O' Levels, ie. after Dec 2002, what are his liabilities with regards to national service?
5. Is he allowed to leave and if so, under what conditions?
6. Does he need to obtain Australian Permanent Residence first before he can leave?
7. If so, how does that change the conditions?
8. If he leaves for Australia and obtains PR, is he still bound by law to come back to serve national service?
9. What if he does not or is unable to come back to serve? Does that make him a criminal in Singapore?
10. What if, he becomes a Singapore criminal by not coming back to serve but subsequently obtains Australian citizenship, does he still remain a criminal liable to be charged any time he sets foot in Singapore even though he may now be an Australian citizenship?
11. Is there any monetary bond/guaranty/surety before he can leave? How much is it? How is it executed?
12. Under what circumstances will it be forfeited?
13. Please answer completely to every point I have enumerated point by point. Please feel free to elaborate.
Regards,
Robert Ho
10 Sep 01 -
This is the trouble as Spore lacked the manpower already.
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Not really. If the man in the letter decides to let his son defaults on NS. His son will have difficulty in the future if should his son wants to study in Singapore or work in Singapore because he could get rejected or even worse jailed for defaulting on NS.Originally posted by will4:This is the trouble as Spore lacked the manpower already.
I do know one person who bonded his son into NS while his son was an infant , migrated to Australia and then let his son default. So his son and him cannot step inside Singapore at all . The most they can do is take Malaysian airlines - go to johor and wait for relatives to go over the causeway for reunion dinner. They cannot take airlines which land in Singapore even for transit. -
is this robert the same robert in sgforums whom got his letters rejected by ST continuously and ideas ripped off?
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This policy is really not fair to Sporean nut in the case of second generation PROriginally posted by fymk:Not really. If the man in the letter decides to let his son defaults on NS. His son will have difficulty in the future if should his son wants to study in Singapore or work in Singapore because he could get rejected or even worse jailed for defaulting on NS.
they required to serve NS but if they refused, they need to give up their PR.
No punishment is meted to these PR if they refused to serve NS. -
Reminds me of a storyOriginally posted by will4:This policy is really not fair to Sporean nut in the case of second generation PR
they required to serve NS but if they refused, they need to give up their PR.
No punishment is meted to these PR if they refused to serve NS.
My family friend's son is american by virtue of the father. When she went back into Singapore - she was holding the Singaporean passport while her son held the american passport. Being a junior , he has to follow mommy thru. The lady at immigration just say it out to her : " I do believe that you rob Singapore of a soldier" . To which she replied : " I don't believe so because I did nothing illlegal . His father is american ,so therefore he stays American". The lady at the immigration customs just show a lan lan face. -
Why worry if 1 really wants to leave Sinkapor?! Just leave as if the whole family is going for a holiday in Australia.
Leave and don't come back until the children become a fcuking good talent, by then they can't do anything but welcome him! -
There r cases of NSF in army running away to other countries by applying leave n never come back.Originally posted by fymk:Reminds me of a story
My family friend's son is american by virtue of the father. When she went back into Singapore - she was holding the Singaporean passport while her son held the american passport. Being a junior , he has to follow mommy thru. The lady at immigration just say it out to her : " I do believe that you rob Singapore of a soldier" . To which she replied : " I don't believe so because I did nothing illlegal . His father is american ,so therefore he stays American". The lady at the immigration customs just show a lan lan face. -
What happened after that?Originally posted by will4:There r cases of NSF in army running away to other countries by applying leave n never come back. -
The 2nd gen PR are not able to refuse NS, if they refuse NS, they are subjected to the same punishment. Even they gave up their PR, they are still required to serve the NS because this was stated to them when they first took up PR (sort of like a black and white thing).Originally posted by will4:This policy is really not fair to Sporean nut in the case of second generation PR
they required to serve NS but if they refused, they need to give up their PR.
No punishment is meted to these PR if they refused to serve NS.
That is why alot chose to take work permits and have their children on student pass so they totally avoided the PR-NS trap. -
Nah. I won't do it that way. I find it quite unfair when Singapore has given the son subsidised education and healthcare only to have the son run off.Originally posted by will4:There r cases of NSF in army running away to other countries by applying leave n never come back.
If I have a son, he will be likely to be born overseas. By virtue of being born in Australia - he automatically gains australian citizenship. He will not even touch the fringe benefits of Singapore which obligates him to serve NS.
Just like the son of my family friend. He studies in USA , he lives in USA and he only comes back to see relatives in Singapore. All perfectly legal. He even have a choice to be a Foreign Talent in Singapore without a problem because he wasn't even Singaporean to begin with. -
hey.. it's the same in most countries where they have conscript armies...
seems that an american was born in Italy when they had a conscript army.. he had american parents but by virtue of being born in Italy, he was supposed to serve..
when he visited italy again, he was classified as a 'deserter' -
If they're no longer going to be Singapore citizens, why do they still have to undergo NS?
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They have to make sure that the plane they take to anywhere does not transit in Singapore or land in Singapore. For example , if they go to Europe , they have to take the Australian-US route to LA and fly to Europe. Anywhere across asia will end up having to land in Singapore . Even in emergencies. To fly back to Malaysia - only through MAS with the risk of landing in Singapore in an event of an emergency.Originally posted by Darkness_hacker99:What happened after that?
Or else if they get caught ...too bad for them. -
i figure it's a dumb law.. but hey, like i said in the Nigerian Drug Trafficker topic, you are in a country, you abide by their laws..
if you want to be exempt, you get the exemptionOriginally posted by MooKu:If they're no longer going to be Singapore citizens, why do they still have to undergo NS? -
This case happned to one of my colleauges, a Cornell university graduateOriginally posted by Darkness_hacker99:What happened after that?
after his BMT in Pulau Tekong posted to our unit as a clerk.
He cannot stand our superior esp our Ops Warrant kept picking on his
Ang mo accent. There is once the Ops Warrant told one of the regular sergeant" Can u please teach ur man to speak proper english"
This serviceman decided to apply leave go other country n on the day he need to come back n he ran away. -
My friend is born in Italy. He was given the option of being conscripted but he surrendered italian citizenship. He can still go back to Italy with the australian passport with no problems. He just went back to Rome a few weeks ago. How come that american so suay?Originally posted by the Bear:hey.. it's the same in most countries where they have conscript armies...
seems that an american was born in Italy when they had a conscript army.. he had american parents but by virtue of being born in Italy, he was supposed to serve..
when he visited italy again, he was classified as a 'deserter'
Oh wait...the american went back before 2004 . Now in italy , after 2004, conscription is voluntary. -
i dunno.. i read that somewhere..
but now italy has done away with conscription...
maybe Israel still like that too.. we basically took our conscription and military stuff from them in the beginning when they were the only ones who helped usOriginally posted by fymk:My friend is born in Italy. He was given the option of being conscripted but he surrendered italian citizenship. He can still go back to Italy with the australian passport with no problems. He just went back to Rome a few weeks ago. How come that american so suay? -
ultra-orthodox jews and rabbinical students need not serve in the idf i think. and besides, most people in israel are very willing conscripts, even jews from other countries volunteer to serve. ours is..... the exact opposite don't be such a wuss, i hate ns but im still staying and finishing it. just take it as returning whatever stuff you may "owe" to singapore so those dimwitt scholar ministers have absolutely no damned right to call you a quitter
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Yes, and you choose to become a buddhist monk in Singapore, you can also be excused from NSOriginally posted by vito_corleone:ultra-orthodox jews and rabbinical students need not serve in the idf i think. -
It is everyone choice to stay or go, it is everyone right to serve or not. If regulars in the army don't know how to be kind to people, they are creating more internal enemies than a soldier to fight for country. There will be scenerio when you train soldiers and they pick up arm to kill thier own superior or turn against thier own country.Originally posted by will4:This case happned to one of my colleauges, a Cornell university graduate
after his BMT in Pulau Tekong posted to our unit as a clerk.
He cannot stand our superior esp our Ops Warrant kept picking on his
Ang mo accent. There is once the Ops Warrant told one of the regular sergeant" Can u please teach ur man to speak proper english"
This serviceman decided to apply leave go other country n on the day he need to come back n he ran away. -
National military service is compulsory for Jewish and Druze men, and Jewish women, over the age of 18, although exemptions may be made on religious, physical or psychological grounds (see Profile 21). Men in the Haredi community may choose to be exempt while enrolled in Yeshivas, a practice that is a source of tension,[1] though some yeshiva programs like Hesder provide opportunities for service, while Mechinot provide a one year course designed specifically to prepare students for their service period. - from wikipediaOriginally posted by oxford mushroom:Yes, and you choose to become a buddhist monk in Singapore, you can also be excused from NS -
Sorry, National Service term just cut short by 6 months. If a country is experiencing the lack of manpower, does she have the ability to do that?Originally posted by will4:This is the trouble as Spore lacked the manpower already.
Of course, we can also say that the National Service term was cut short because of a certain invisible animal, but izzit comprimising National Security a more serious issue? -
May I ask something? What is this second gen PR? Since when did this started?
I asked those question because I have a aunt, when she was about to give birth to her son, she went to New Zealand to gave birth (his father is from New Zealand, though he is now living/working in Sinagpore) and thus her son is holding New Zealand Citizenship.
Currently, her son is holding Singapore PR. She told me that when her son is about to reach 18, she is going to forfeit the PR so that her son can escape NS and go to New Zealand to live.
By doing so, is her son allow to come back to Singapore as a tourist or even step a foot into Singapore?
Will it make her son a criminal of Singapore?
What age, at max, must her son forfeit his PR to escape from being criminal of Singapore, if possible?
I think he is currently at the age of 4 to 5. When did this second gen PR started, long before he was born or after? -
2nd gen pr means at least one of your parents hold either sg pr or citizenship.