More foreign doctors to increase capacity and lower costs
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I hate to say this, but let's put it in the simplest terms here: Singapore is too darn expensive to live in and frankly any damn fool will have a better life else where if not for the fact that many of these said doctors became doctors because either parental pressure as Asian parents have an idiotic tendency of thinking that a doctor is a great and honourable job for some great entrenched idiotic reason and these doctors have parents who expect them to follow the silly Asian tradition blah blah blah. The other reason simply because many western countries are very protectionistic about foreign doctors entering the market hence they restrict their entry.Originally posted by Gazelle:I personally think that the government did the right thing to allow more foreign doctors to serve in the public sector. What the government need to tackle now is the aging population because they need help and we can no longer depend on those greedy bunch of singapore doctors who are all looking at make big bucks in the private sector.
Honestly, why should singapore care too much about those greedy singapore doctors who chose to migrate overseas because of $$? The reason why they have chosen to become a doctor is not because of passion to treat the sick and poor, but to make big bucks for themselves so that they can live comfortably in big houses in district 9 and 10.
If you are going to throw greed into the equation, i would say that foreign doctors also came here out of greed and if you are going throw in the morality of hospital care, you can go build a castle in the clouds. Everyone is looking to make big bucks and pretending that doctors should do community service instead of doing it for profit is frankly absurd beyond definition. -
exactly, doctors are not saint and why should they deserve better treatment than said Singaporean construction workers? And why nobody is suggesting that we should ban cheap foreign construction workers into singapore? Is it because the job is too tough for singaporeans and singaporeans are too afraid that they will have to pay more when they buy their next property in Singapore?Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:I hate to say this, but let's put it in the simplest terms here: Singapore is too darn expensive to live in and frankly any damn fool will have a better life else where if not for the fact that many of these said doctors became doctors because either parental pressure as Asian parents have an idiotic tendency of thinking that a doctor is a great and honourable job for some great entrenched idiotic reason and these doctors have parents who expect them to follow the silly Asian tradition blah blah blah. The other reason simply because many western countries are very protectionistic about foreign doctors entering the market hence they restrict their entry.
If you are going to throw greed into the equation, i would say that foreign doctors also came here out of greed and if you are going throw in the morality of hospital care, you can go build a castle in the clouds. Everyone is looking to make big bucks and pretending that doctors should do community service instead of doing it for profit is frankly absurd beyond definition. -
Wait, Singaporean construction workers!?! We even have them?!?! No one can survive on a wage like that in Singapore and even live decently! That's a whole different ball game and some economists wonder if our over reliance on foreign workers has driven wages to the point that one can't live with the hellishly high costs of living without huge loans. Here in the US construction workers earn heck a lot more and still able to support family and live in a home. You can't do that in Singapore!Originally posted by Gazelle:exactly, doctors are not saint and why should they deserve better treatment than said Singaporean construction workers? And why nobody is suggesting that we should ban cheap foreign construction workers into singapore? Is it because the job is too tough for singaporeans and singaporeans are too afraid that they will have to pay more when they buy their next property in Singapore?
Foreign doctors will not solve the problems of health costs. It will solve the problem in the short term but not in the long term. If people feel they are being squeezed in the medical sector less will enter the profession or migrate. Then in the future we will be so reliant on foreign doctors we have to instead pay big bucks to get them to stay here and then you are back to square one. The same thing happened with lawyers, and the same thing will happen with doctors. -
3 yrs ago, my son and I went to UK and on a return trip via Brunei to Spore,there is a very sick pregnant lady and her husband on board , and an Indian lady sitting beside us also on board in Brunei.Originally posted by fymk:Frankly I would not see a doctor with an MBBS from calcutta, delhi or whichever part of India.
Got misdiagnosed by one before...don't play play . My mom also kenna a few times when hospital assign her some graduate from indian medical school . Besides working as a nurse , I have to work with foreign doctors . The doctors who graduated from india, talk alot , cannot do . Only jump at the chance of procedures but pushing all blame to other doctors if something goes wrong. I don't trust them at all especially on night shift. One misdiagnosed a Ventricular Tachycardia for normal rhythmn - Ox would know this life threatening condition . My colleague was like hey this ECG doesn't look normal and I look and said Shit ..prepare to call code soon. I had to overwrite the damn doctor from india , and call for registrar. Then told the registrar what this guy did - he went actually blame the lighting ! MY GOD.
And then you have DR Jayant Patel aka Dr Death , who trained in India and then went for training in USA and got banned then he lied to come into Queensland and I pity the little girl who saw him anyhow plunging the needle 50 times into her father and now he is claiming that Australia is racist and picking on him.
Sorry . I don't give a shit about graduates from some new delhi or whatever indian medical school. Enough is enough.
On the way,the pregnant lady vomitting badly and feeling sharp pain,the air hostess of RAB r in panic and announed that whether there is a Doc on board can help,after serveral announments,no one came forward, my son was the final year medical student then had no choice but to attend to it but he is not a profeaasional Doc yet,what he can offer is to make enquries about the situation, the air hostess finally found out from the passengers' lists that the Indian lady sat beside us is a Doc working in RIPAS hopistal in Brunei, my son immediately asked her for assistance for she is a qualified Doc , she finally reluctantly rendered her help to the pregnant lady together with my son.
After half an hour,the pregnant lady clam down on board and slowly recovered.
When we arrived in Spore, I questioned her why she dare not declear herself as a Doc when emergency arose on board the plane,she told us that although she is a Doc in Brunei but she is not qualified as a Doc in Spore.In addition,she admitted she was not trained in A&E Dept b4 graduation in India.
OMG!!! my son n I nearly fainted in the arrival hall of Spore.
Does Spore need such a Doc from a third world country!!!!She is not well trained b4 graduation and who is dealing with life and death matter!!
She also told us that all the well trained Docs r all in Developed countries in where they can earn high income and those so so Docs would be in Brunei and other developing countries.
Is Spore a developed country to attract first class Docs or r we attracting files same as those self proclaimed Doc with fake qualifications here??? -
I am aware of the cost of "legal" construction workers in USA, and I am also aware that the world largest debtor is also USA.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Wait, Singaporean construction workers!?! We even have them?!?! No one can survive on a wage like that in Singapore and even live decently! That's a whole different ball game and some economists wonder if our over reliance on foreign workers has driven wages to the point that one can't live with the hellishly high costs of living without huge loans. Here in the US construction workers earn heck a lot more and still able to support family and live in a home. You can't do that in Singapore!
Foreign doctors will not solve the problems of health costs. It will solve the problem in the short term but not in the long term. If people feel they are being squeezed in the medical sector less will enter the profession or migrate. Then in the future we will be so reliant on foreign doctors we have to instead pay big bucks to get them to stay here and then you are back to square one. The same thing happened with lawyers, and the same thing will happen with doctors.
I think the problem here is Singapore doctors are moving to the private sector and not because they are make a living serving in public clinic. Any idea how much a doctor is being paid in polyclinic?
Pay big bucks? Why dont we pay big buck to bring back Singapore construction workers so that those without education can still make big bucks like other singaporeans? -
aha ! ... there lies the problem ...Originally posted by foomwee88:3 yrs ago, my son and I went to UK and on a return trip via Brunei to Spore,there is a very sick pregnant lady and her husband on board , and an Indian lady sitting beside us also on board in Brunei.
On the way,the pregnant lady vomitting badly and feeling sharp pain,the air hostess of RAB r in panic and announed that whether there is a Doc on board can help,after serveral announments,no one came forward, my son was the final year medical student then had no choice but to attend to it but he is not a profeaasional Doc yet,what he can offer is to make enquries about the situation, the air hostess finally found out from the passengers' lists that the Indian lady sat beside us is a Doc working in RIPAS hopistal in Brunei, my son immediately asked her for assistance for she is a qualified Doc , she finally reluctantly rendered her help to the pregnant lady together with my son.
After half an hour,the pregnant lady clam down on board and slowly recovered.
When we arrived in Spore, I questioned her why she dare not declear herself as a Doc when emergency arose on board the plane,she told us that although she is a Doc in Brunei but she is not qualified as a Doc in Spore.In addition,she admitted she was not trained in A&E Dept b4 graduation in India.
OMG!!! my son n I nearly fainted in the arrival hall of Spore.
Does Spore need such a Doc from a third world country!!!!She is not well trained b4 graduation and who is dealing with life and death matter!!
She also told us that all the well trained Docs r all in Developed countries in where they can earn high income and those so so Docs would be in Brunei and other developing countries.
Is Spore a developed country to attract first class Docs or r we attracting files same as those self proclaimed Doc with fake qualifications here???
if we do not pay wages as competitive as those of developed western countries, then I suppose we'll have to accept that those "FTs" that come to Singapore are second-raters who couldn't make it anywhere else ... bear in mind that even with competitive wages, the allure of the west can often be stronger than what we can offer in Singapore ....
but if we do ... then it brings us back to the question of lowering costs, eh ? ...
it's the same thing with every industry, not just health care ... -
The reasons why doctors leave for the private sector is because work in the public sector means you serve tonnes of patients and you are overworked, stretched and tired beyond definition. Who wants to work in such conditions then?Originally posted by Gazelle:I am aware of the cost of "legal" construction workers in USA, and I am also aware that the world largest debtor is also USA.
I think the problem here is Singapore doctors are moving to the private sector and not because they are make a living serving in public clinic. Any idea how much a doctor is being paid in polyclinic?
Pay big bucks? Why dont we pay big buck to bring back Singapore construction workers so that those without education can still make big bucks like other singaporeans?
Why we don't pay big bucks to bring back Singaporean Construction workers? I can imagine the Govt will freak out at that possibility I can assure you and kid you not. The idea of construction works commanding wages at 1K at the minimum will send them freaking out and then telling people not to go in. Why? Because every single wage in Singapore will go up and the Govt will likely freak out at the possibility taht we will fall further down the competitive index. -
I am not sure if it is overworked or "underpaid" because what you are saying is that if government pays more singapore doctors will be more capable to handle "stress".Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:The reasons why doctors leave for the private sector is because work in the public sector means you serve tonnes of patients and you are overworked, stretched and tired beyond definition. Who wants to work in such conditions then?
Why we don't pay big bucks to bring back Singaporean Construction workers? I can imagine the Govt will freak out at that possibility I can assure you and kid you not. The idea of construction works commanding wages at 1K at the minimum will send them freaking out and then telling people not to go in. Why? Because every single wage in Singapore will go up and the Govt will likely freak out at the possibility taht we will fall further down the competitive index.
I think that the lower income will freakout if government annouce that we have to charge more at polyclinic and extent waiting times because we MUST depends on Singapore doctors. -
That's not the point. The point about paying them more is in hope that they will be lured to stay because of the money. Else, they will, as all humans would do, look for greener pastures.Originally posted by Gazelle:I am not sure if it is overworked or "underpaid" because what you are saying is that if government pays more singapore doctors will be more capable to handle "stress".
I think that the lower income will freakout if government annouce that we have to charge more at polyclinic and extent waiting times because we MUST depends on Singapore doctors.
Whereas I sympathise with poor's plight, the Govt will have to shoulder that burden and acknowledge that not everyone is capable of living on their own two feet, much less one. -
Why should the government pay more to HOPE when they can pay less to be SURE?Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:That's not the point. The point about paying them more is in hope that they will be lured to stay because of the money. Else, they will, as all humans would do, look for greener pastures.
Whereas I sympathise with poor's plight, the Govt will have to shoulder that burden and acknowledge that not everyone is capable of living on their own two feet, much less one. -
i THINK FOR HEALTH AND EDUCATION MATTERS, SG SHOULD NOT TREAT AND USE THEM TO MAKE PROFIT .Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:That's not the point. The point about paying them more is in hope that they will be lured to stay because of the money. Else, they will, as all humans would do, look for greener pastures.
Whereas I sympathise with poor's plight, the Govt will have to shoulder that burden and acknowledge that not everyone is capable of living on their own two feet, much less one.
THAT WHAT WE SAID PAID PEANuT TO GET MONKEY!!!!
FTs n Docs from third world countries would not contribute much to Spore progress but will definitely hurt the well beings of Sillyporeans!!!! -
Much as I agree, the Govt's unofficial policy is to maximise profit at every corner, hence the myraid of taxes we have to pay, and the fact that HDB is at times similarly priced to the cheapest Condos around.Originally posted by foomwee88:i THINK FOR HEALTH AND EDUCATION MATTERS, SG SHOULD NOT TREAT AND USE THEM TO MAKE PROFIT .
THAT WHAT WE SAID PAID PEANuT TO GET MONKEY!!!!
FTs n Docs from third world countries would not contribute much to Spore progress but will definitely hurt the well beings of Sillyporeans!!!! -
So you accept that the government should increase pay to public hospital doctors to retain more of them. But where is the extra money going to come from? You are saying the government should pay but the government's revenue ultimately comes from tax payers.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:That's not the point. The point about paying them more is in hope that they will be lured to stay because of the money. Else, they will, as all humans would do, look for greener pastures.
Whereas I sympathise with poor's plight, the Govt will have to shoulder that burden and acknowledge that not everyone is capable of living on their own two feet, much less one.
How many Singaporeans are prepared to pay higher taxes? On top of that, higher taxes will erode Singapore's competitiveness. -
That is true. If these FTs are second raters compared to local doctors, then it is both a reassuring and troubling fact. Reassuring because it means our doctors have high standards and justify their higher salaries. Troubling because with Singaporeans want more doctors in public hospitals but without raising healthcare costs, the only solution is to bring in these very second rate FTs who cannot work in the West like Singapore doctors and nurses.Originally posted by Fatum:aha ! ... there lies the problem ...
if we do not pay wages as competitive as those of developed western countries, then I suppose we'll have to accept that those "FTs" that come to Singapore are second-raters who couldn't make it anywhere else ... bear in mind that even with competitive wages, the allure of the west can often be stronger than what we can offer in Singapore ....
but if we do ... then it brings us back to the question of lowering costs, eh ? ...
it's the same thing with every industry, not just health care ...
Quality or pricing...Singaporeans may have already decided that cheaper is better. The Health Minister is only responding to the two clear messages from Singaporeans in this issue: more doctors in public institutions but lower healthcare costs -
There is already going to be higher taxes in any case. It should be further noted that the Govt runs surpluses every year and that year where they claimed they didn't was simply an accounting nonsense as there were analysts who pointed out that the Govt does not consider land sales as part of the surplus. Why the Govt needs to run huge surpluses every year is quite beyond me. Why the Govt resorts to the same o' alarmist nonsense to justify the huge reserve is again beyond me, unless they are trying to make up for lost billions like the Suzhou project and the impending loss from the Thaksin affair.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:So you accept that the government should increase pay to public hospital doctors to retain more of them. But where is the extra money going to come from? You are saying the government should pay but the government's revenue ultimately comes from tax payers.
How many Singaporeans are prepared to pay higher taxes? On top of that, higher taxes will erode Singapore's competitiveness.
Singapore's competitiveness is sometimes a joke because the Govt has to compromise hugely on citizens' welfare while putting out the begging bowl for foreign companies to come in. -
The problem is not about white doctors or grey doctors or yellow doctors or whatever color you like to call it. The problem is the inconsistent standard of training in india - I have no issues with australian trained doctors or Singaporean trained doctors.Originally posted by Gazelle:quote:
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Originally posted by fymk:
All you need is a Dr Death like Dr Jayant Patel who killed a few patients to know the impact .
Oxford is not worried because he is ALREADY in UK. HAHHA
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As usual white co.ck suckers will not mentioned anything bad about white doctors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Shipman
As usual australia co.ck suckers will not mentioned about bad things that is happening in white country.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/rapist-doctor-gets-13-years/2007/01/25/1169594407650.html
If they do something wrong - I will report on them too and there have been times where I reported interns to their registrar for issues pertaining to patient care regardless of whether they are caucasian or asian.
Bearing in mind there are chinese-australian, indian-australian, vietnamese-australian and caucasian australian doctors who trained in Australia. Their training is different from indian medical school graduates . They at least ask the senior nurses for advice on how to deal with certain situations and if I say call the registrar - they do call .
Indian medical school grads - their word is law and they treat most nurses' report or opinions like crap even though they might be dealing with the situation wrongly. That is my impression of them.
I told one such indian medical school grad (he claims he has 5 years of experience but only can start off as intern status in Australia) to call the registrar because I knew that what he was doing is not right, and he told me I know nothing since I am a nurse. Well , his registrar ( who I might add is Singaporean-trained for the benefit of gazelle) said that he should not insert intravenous cannulas into a diabetic's partially infected foot in the first place at all !
I would suggest that you refrain from namecalling. Just because greengoblin locked your thread of calling names doesn't mean you can start a flaming thread here. -
OM the voodoo math wizard did not elaborate on how bringing in foreign doctors can lower cost?
He side stepped everything again, lost the argument and squirm away as usual. Like the nematode that he is. -
OM+=lol:Originally posted by maurizio13:OM the voodoo math wizard did not elaborate on how bringing in foreign doctors can lower cost?
He side stepped everything again, lost the argument and squirm away as usual. Like the nematode that he is.
In Japen, they emphasize when u repair something ,u must ensure to do it right at first go,otherwise, we have to spend more cost if complication arises!!!
Futhermore, as a Doc is dealing with human life , quality of the health care is the utmost important matter to us,no major mistake at all can be allowed when repairing the human body!!!!
Bringing in foreign doctors of good quality will only increase the cost of health care instead of lowering it,the reasons r as follows;
Firstly, the not so well trained Doc will give more problem or double work to the well trained Doc
Secondly,the well trained foreign Docs will migrate elsewhere when their pay doennt commensurate with market rates in developed countries.
Finally as the cost of living is high in Spore,we have to provide the good foreign Docs with accomodation etc -
To be honest, doctors aren't stupid and they are going to demand equal pay to local doctors in addition to paying for their moving costs, housing etc.
It's going come back to square one. -
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
With your PhD in the field of medicine, why do you insist on imposing your authority - with such limited expertise - in other areas that you are unfamiliar with, and defending your unfamiliar turf as if you are the only owner ?
So you accept that the government should increase pay to public hospital doctors to retain more of them. But where is the extra money going to come from? You are saying the government should pay but the government's revenue ultimately comes from tax payers.
How many Singaporeans are prepared to pay higher taxes? On top of that, higher taxes will erode Singapore's competitiveness.
The revenue of this Government is NOT necessarily from taxes imposed on Singaporeans; but also from the huge amounts of profits that they have made from the investments of the SINGAPORE RESERVES.
The SINGAPORE RESERVES have been accumulated from a variety of TAXES paid by Singaporeans - directly and indirectly.
The huge amounts of annual profits that have been annually reported from the vast stable of Government Owned and Linked Companies is much larger than all the various direct and indirect taxes paid by Singaporeans.
These profits from the various Government Owned and Linked Companies are seldom returned to the Treasury, but remained in the coffers of the respective Companies - paying million dollar salaries to retired political cronies assigned to head the various Companies as decided by the Ruling Political Party. -
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
u mean GST hike is not higher taxes... isn't it a convenient truth that higher ministerial pays mean more taxes have to be collected too? water flows downward, right?
So you accept that the government should increase pay to public hospital doctors to retain more of them. But where is the extra money going to come from? You are saying the government should pay but the government's revenue ultimately comes from tax payers.
How many Singaporeans are prepared to pay higher taxes? On top of that, higher taxes will erode Singapore's competitiveness.
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OM,Originally posted by oxford mushroom:So you accept that the government should increase pay to public hospital doctors to retain more of them. But where is the extra money going to come from? You are saying the government should pay but the government's revenue ultimately comes from tax payers.
How many Singaporeans are prepared to pay higher taxes? On top of that, higher taxes will erode Singapore's competitiveness.
Are u in the govt?That's the govt problem.
If the govt want to raise taxes,can the ppl say no and would the govt just accept? -
Who is OM?Originally posted by PRP:OM,
Are u in the govt?That's the govt problem.
If the govt want to raise taxes,can the ppl say no and would the govt just accept?
I know an OM is a phd in a pig industry!!!!! -
R u a Gods???Originally posted by Gazelle:Why should the government pay more to HOPE when they can pay less to be SURE? -
Originally posted by Gazelle:
since when gahmen pay anything for anything, they practise the no free lunch game, the only SURE thing is that they make SURE people pay for the policies... where got HOPE for anything LESS...
Why should the government pay more to HOPE when they can pay less to be SURE?