IDF in Jenin
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Wonder what you guys think of the situation so far. It's a huge mess I must admit, but I think the palestinians are to blame for it, using their city as a shield and a terrorist base.
The next issue is, after the firefight, the clean up begins. Who do you think should be responsible for the cleanup? Already the palestinians are getting maimed by all the booby trapped aread left by their own militants and now they have the nerve to complain that IDF sappers have not cleared the place for them! http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=155517&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0
On the issue of the UN fact finding mission, I think it is only right that neutral military personnel be sent verify the claims of the palsetinians of 400+ 'massacred' vs the Israeli claim of 40 militants KIA. It's a shame that it had to come to this, but sending in diplomats who have never witnessed the horrors of FIBUA to verify Jenin is a huge mistake. These civilians will just see rubble and be immediately biased against Israel. Rather neutral military observers are needed as they are trained to assess such situations and verify the Israel position that there was a huge and hard fought battle.
Israel could have levelled the place with bombs and artillery, but they chose to reduce palestinian casualities by sending the infantry in.
As one militant happily explaimed when he saw the IDF troopers coming in "allah be blessed, it is a godsend...we will kill them all here...we have women and children and they won't fire"
With attitudes like this, it's no wonder the Israeli public has swung far right. The monster that is Ariel Sharon is the inevitable creation of the terrorists. Now they have only themselves to blame for putting this hawk into power.
it's just...sad. -
No Frill....How would you like it if We invade U all and destroy everything that is Yours in the First place ?Originally posted by No Frill:it's just...sad.
You will feel Damn Piss off and Angry Right?
Okay Some buggers here are going to Talk About SAF bullshit again...but not my point here
At least You all have the SAF to defend U...But those Palestinians ? What Do they Have? Just some AK47s and some equipment to protect their already Limited Property and now further reduced by Sharon.
U view them as terrorist...But in some sense they are Freedom fighters....trying to carve out a small area for Themselves called home.
You quote the militant tolking of IDF as sending in troops as a big MISTAKE...of COURSE....But in all cases it is Still Genocide and to kill one more Israeli to them is to save one more Palestine Life in the future...
U of all people...as an Army Officier Should know this...
BE more objective
[This message has been edited by FuckSpore4ever (edited 24 April 2002).] -
I agree totally with your point. The palestine have only themselves to blame for this. Had Arafat argeed to rein in the militants, this would not have happen.
One interesting thought, what would happen if Israel should pull out totally of palestine? History has shown that the arabs will not tolerate the state of Israel in middle east. My opinion is that should Israel pull out of palestine, the arabs will next press on to drive them out middle east. Does anyone have a different opinion?
From what I know, the Jews have been in that land since 3000 BC and they were driven from there and the palestine came in the 7 AD. So, in that case, the Jews should have rights to that land.
Does anyone knows the ancient detail of the Israel/palestine conflict? Appreciate it if you could share. -
I think I would speak for everyone here when I say that you are obviously capable of a good sensible mature debate on politics and issue of the world, and we would be happy to do that with you. BUT I refuse to do so with you until you change that offensive name you go by, and I urge everyone else on this board to join me.
Until then, I will not raise any of my points to debate this issue with you.
Respectfully yours -
*laff*...me U are tolking about ? Well Why is it so offensive ? SPORE okay not S'poreOriginally posted by Viper52:Until then, I will not raise any of my points to debate this issue with you.
Respectfully yours
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mfscrewu, How DO U LIKE IT if someone coems in and attack Your girlfriend of wife? Will U retaliate? Will U rein back Your family members for taking action?Originally posted by mfscrewu:I agree totally with your point. The palestine have only themselves to blame for this. Had Arafat argeed to rein in the militants, this would not have happen.
One interesting thought, what would happen if Israel should pull out totally of palestine? History has shown that the arabs will not tolerate the state of Israel in middle east. My opinion is that should Israel pull out of palestine, the arabs will next press on to drive them out middle east. Does anyone have a different opinion?
From what I know, the Jews have been in that land since 3000 BC and they were driven from there and the palestine came in the 7 AD. So, in that case, the Jews should have rights to that land.
Does anyone knows the ancient detail of the Israel/palestine conflict? Appreciate it if you could share.
Same analogy here. Under Rabin, there was some real chance of peace. Sucide attacks were significantly lower. But what did The PEACE LOVING Israelites do ? Kill the only chance that could buy them at least 5 months of peace initially.
FYI, 2/3 of Israel don't support Sharon. Reservist who were called to Gaza Strip prefered to be jailed then to fight...Why? This is because it is a pointless war...they are Fighting for the vainity of the FAR RIGHT who are instigating all these bullshit and nosense.
Want to have peace....easy....just return the land to palestine and get UN to patrol the area to prevent any Jews from going there and any Palestines from spilling over effectively forming a human war.
As for history...read historical sources like the bible for example. They provide some clues to why they left due to the deposition by the Roman Empire in 63 AD.
*laff* As for your argument that jews sholud have right to that land because they were there first....then Mongoria should own the whole world since the Khan took over nearly all of Asia. -
I don't like Ariel Sharon, the man, his policies and his politics. but I feel that the situation today, though partly was due to Israeli overreaction, was mainly brought about by instrangience on the part of Arafat and the Palestinian Authority. The Mitchell and Tenet plans offered as an adjunct to peace, a couple of years ago, would have brought the idea of a fully independent, self contained Palestinian state a lot closer. In exchange the PA would work to try to ensure Isrsels security. That is the basic idea. Yes, both plans fall short of what the PA wants, and whaty it essentailly gave was control of Gaza, along with PA enclaves of control inside the West Bank, and I believe on control of East Jerusalem(not too clear on the last point). But what did they expect, the Israelis to just cave in hand over the entire West Bank in one fell swoop? C'mon, if this were to occur, Israel would be 7-8 miles long at its widest point. Do they even think the Israeli would accept that overnight? The Israelis wouldn't get what they wanted from the plans either, but they were willing to make concessions for peace. Thats what negotiations are about right? For all parties to compromise until a solution is reached?Originally posted by No Frill:Wonder what you guys think of the situation so far.
The plans were not perfect, but if implemented properly, what it would give is confidence and trust to both sides, and would act as a prelude to further negotiations. It might not produce a breakthrough in a year, but who knows in 5 or 10? Mistrust was built up over 40 years, did they think the Israelis would trust them overnight? What it basically required was for each party to trust each other tentatively, and use that as a basis for further talks. Israel accepted, Arafat didn't. What we see is a direct result of that.
By consistently refusing to ensure Israels security, and using the suicide bombers to continually try to pressure Israel into more concessions, hoping the Israeli public would eventually tire and give him what he wants, Arafat miscalculated by forcing the Israelis into a corner, and inviting the ensuing backlash. Hes trapped, hungry and uncomfortable? Serves him right. he had a chance to make peace with Rabin and Peres, and become a statesman in the process. Instead he chose war and to become a 'lau hero'.
FWIW, IMO the wars in the MidEast, were all either started by the Arabs or goaded by the Arabs into starting. They lost all of 'em, and now they come crying like spoilt brats to try and use world opinion to get back what they lost fair and square.
Moral of story: Don't start what you can't finish -
The land they occupy, they are using as bases to launch SUICIDE bombers into Israel. Acts that TARGET civilians primarily. Does the international community condemn this? Yes, but yet why are many still shielding the Palestinians? The Palestinians are not as poorly armed as u state them to be, mr. offensivenick. The IDF managed to sieze one massive shipment of arms, finding them to contain katushya rockets, as well as other heavy weapons. Poorly armed? I think not, Palestinian terrorist groups just like parading their AK-47s, then showing them getting brutally wounded.
Freedom fighters my foot. If u call people who targets children, and unarmed civilians freedom fighters, then you bring great shame to real freedom fighters like Ghandi. Freedom fighters are heroes, not cowardly people who murder children. If Robin Hood existed, he would have been the example of freedom fighters. Not these crazed men who strap explosives to their backs.
In anycase, why should the Palestinians be fighting for freedom at all? The land was never theirs, their land was the various province of southern Syria. Unfortunately, they were kicked out of their land, and none of the arab nations would take them in.
"Return all the territories conquered in the 1967 war in exchange for normalization of ties?" Bloody bullshit if you ask me. Surrendering regions like the Golan Heights is like surrendering crucial and advantageous ground. Why should any country surrender any amount of land that was captured in a defensive war? Literally mobbed by her arab neighbours, yet she survives and pushes the invaders back to where they came from and beyond is no easy feat. Consider the land reparations if u may.
According to the Resolution 242 (1967)
of 22 November 1967, quote, "(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;" The resolution called for return of territories and not return of ALL territories. That Israel has already met. Now why should any of the Arab countries insist on getting the remaining land back just to "normalize" ties? Sounds like bloody blackmail to me. Israel should not return the occupied territories as a warning to everybody around the world, YOU don't start wars without consequences. -
The ancient detail I don't have. What happened in more recent times is that after WWII, Britain administered Palestine. In 1947 the UN voted to force Britain to hand over Palestine into 2 separate entities, one under Jewish admistration and one under Palestinian. Problem was, there are significant minorities of the other side in land under each side's control. Thus the last few months of British rule was marked by fighting as both side strove to gain the upper hand. The Palestinians were supported by the Arabs while the Jews were supported by Jewish expatriates from all over. Things exploded into full scale conflict in 1948 after the Brits left, and eventually the Jews won and Israel was born, with the West Bank and Gaza under Arab control. A few more wars were fought, in 1956 when Nasser tried to nationalise Suez Canal(ended with UN ceasefire- no lands lost either side), 1967 when continual provocation forced Israel into launching a pre-emtive strike(6 day war- Golan Heights, Gaza Strip and West Bank captured), 1973 Yom Kippur War(surprise Arab attack, Sinai lost by Egypt - returned in 1979 as result of Camp David accords), and 1982(and 1985 IIRC) when Israel invaded Lebanon to secure a buffer zone to 1)drive the PLO out of Lebanon and 2)to stop cross border attacks on N Israel. In between there have been low level conflicts and skirmishes, particularly in the late 60s/early 70s, those are the major wars.Originally posted by mfscrewu:Does anyone knows the ancient detail of the Israel/palestine conflict? Appreciate it if you could share. -
Mr Shotgun....What about IDF going into Palestine territory to shoot Palestine Children and women? Justified?Originally posted by Shotgun:The land they occupy, they are using as bases to launch SUICIDE bombers into Israel. Acts that TARGET civilians primarily. Does the international community condemn this? Yes, but yet why are many still shielding the Palestinians? The Palestinians are not as poorly armed as u state them to be, mr. offensivenick. The IDF managed to sieze one massive shipment of arms, finding them to contain katushya rockets, as well as other heavy weapons. Poorly armed? I think not, Palestinian terrorist groups just like parading their AK-47s, then showing them getting brutally wounded.
Freedom fighters my foot. If u call people who targets children, and unarmed civilians freedom fighters, then you bring great shame to real freedom fighters like Ghandi. Freedom fighters are heroes, not cowardly people who murder children. If Robin Hood existed, he would have been the example of freedom fighters. Not these crazed men who strap explosives to their backs.
In anycase, why should the Palestinians be fighting for freedom at all? The land was never theirs, their land was the various province of southern Syria. Unfortunately, they were kicked out of their land, and none of the arab nations would take them in.
"Return all the territories conquered in the 1967 war in exchange for normalization of ties?" Bloody bullshit if you ask me. Surrendering regions like the Golan Heights is like surrendering crucial and advantageous ground. Why should any country surrender any amount of land that was captured in a defensive war? Literally mobbed by her arab neighbours, yet she survives and pushes the invaders back to where they came from and beyond is no easy feat. Consider the land reparations if u may.
According to the Resolution 242 (1967)
of 22 November 1967, quote, "(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;" The resolution called for return of territories and not return of ALL territories. That Israel has already met. Now why should any of the Arab countries insist on getting the remaining land back just to "normalize" ties? Sounds like bloody blackmail to me. Israel should not return the occupied territories as a warning to everybody around the world, YOU don't start wars without consequences.
And for Your Info, when before Israel was formed, the Palestine and Jews lived in peaced until the Sten Gang did terrorist actions which resulted in the formation of Israel. Read the Century of Warfare by Charles Messenger. It shows who were the first terrorist. And For Your Info, this Sten Gang became the basis of the IDF.
So who is the terrorist ? -
I agree with you Viper. Under the Oslo accords for example, the Israelis were more willing to budge, but afarat refused to, hoping to use terror as a tool to goad the Israelis into surrendering more. I think he obviously thought that the Israelis would have no more stomache to do battle after their withdrawal from Lebanon.
He's also obviously miscalculated the fighting spirit of the Israelis.
Sharon came into power because of how arafat refused to reign in his suicide bombers and this triggered a huge shift of public opinion from 'peace is possible' to 'only if we kill them all first' modes. This, i hold arafat and those islamic terrorists like hamas commands fully responsible.
The only reason why the IDF undertook this recent 3 week incursion was to protect the Israeli public from a wave of suicide bombers, let loose by arafat and sponsored by saddam. I think people who tell their children that to strap a bomb onto themselves and to detonate it in the hope of killing a few soldiers are demented and twisted.
And yes, the Israeli public wholeheartedly endorsed the recent incursions cos they all felt that enough was enough. As for those reservists who refused to serve, they refused to serve in the enforcement of patrols in the occupied territories, NOT in the incursions into the terrorist infested cities of ramallah, jenin etc. Get your facts straight, and yes, as viper suggested, change your damned nick. It's highly offensive.
Lest we forget too quickly, all the times the wars were fought, it was because the arabs wanted to (as sadat called it) 'drive the Jews into the sea'
If these arabs refuse to acknowledge the fundamental tenenat of Israel's existence, how can Israel ever view them with anything more than hostility and suspicion?
It also doesn't help that arab leaders and the palestinains openly declare to want to wipe the Jews of the earth every time they stand in front of a camera.
the reporting is biased...all we see are pictures of lone and masked palestinaian terroris standing against an israeli tank...what a publicity coup for these terrorists! What the World's press refuses to show is how badly Israel has been pushed into a corner.
They don't show the devastation that the suicide bombers bring, and they don't show the dead Israelis scattered on the tarmac. It just ain't fun news.
It's always better to sell pictures that people want to see...that of the big modern IDF 'bullying' the poor underarmed terrorists. And that's the sad thing. People blind to the fanatical fundamentalism of these terrorists, and who prefer to call them freedom fighters. What an insult to the term ... these are people who walked away from freedom and walked away from negotiation and embraced militancy.
I have a friend who serves in te IDF and I write him an email almost every day to see if he's still alive. I'm glad he still is. And I tell him that everytime he does his job, there'll be one less terrorist loose on this world.
God bless Israel. -
ugh , more misinfo from the poorly read offensivenick. (either that, or he's only reading into what he wants to)
The sten gang was formed in reaction to the british supported palestinian para-military terror groups whose mandate was to crush any Jews who breathed...
Jews were being butchered with impunity and the British just turned a blind eye. so the only reaction was to form a defence force to deal with those terrorists.
These palestinians are terrorists and bullies then, terrorists and bullies now.
They rightly deserve a good bloody nose from Israel. -
If the cowardly palestinian fighters don't keep ducking behind their own women and children for cover, there wouldn't be any civilian casualties. They hide within the civilians instead of away from them. Tell me, is that in the interest of the palestinian population, or in the interest of self preservation?
Personally, I've seen Israel take waves and waves of suicidal attacks, and I feel its about bloody time they hit back hard. -
Hey No Frill, on second thought, leave the guy's choice of nick alone. If people want to debase and humiliate themselves by attaching a crude and vulgar name to their opinions, power to them I say!Originally posted by No Frill:change your damned nick. It's highly offensive.
After all, it does speak volumes for the guy's opinions, character(or lack thereof) and dare I say it, his country.
Whoops...there I go being "arrogant" and "insensitive" again, to paraphrase from "101 ways to abuse Singapore, 2002 edition".
Man that book never changes, always the same few words. Limited vocabulary I guess. -
Read Pg. 359
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[B]But Jewish Hardliners were bent on creating an all Jewish state there, and formed two secret TERRORIST groups. One became known as the Stern Gang, after its leader, Avraham Stern, and COMMITED A NUMBER OF ATROCITIES, INCLUDING ASSASSINATING LORD MOYNE, THE BRITISH MINISTER RESIDENT IN CARIO........
The UN tried to establish a truce between the Jews and the Arabs under Count Bernadotte...but he was assasinated for his efforts by Jewish TERRORISTs.
U want more ? Read the book YOurself -
Sigh. A little knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing.
Isn't literacy such a wonderful thing? -
Yes sudaimiki, we can read without you capitalising everything in your sentence. I'm quite sure that the people in this forum know where your sympathies lie and what point you're trying to emphasise. Shouting is rude.
As Shotgun said, there'd be less civilian casualities if those cowardly palestinians stopped hiding behind their women folk.
Their womenfolk...what a convenient excuse. Can't drive, can't walk around without men from the family, can't go to school, can't seek medical treatment, can't go to school, but hey! They can be used as a human shield for hamas and fatah terrorists to cower behind their veils.
Hey girl! you can't go to school, but you'd be a martyr if you strap this thing to your chest and blow yourself up. That's your purpose in life. Oh yeah, and if you survive, come home, wash the dishes and don't let me catch you studying cos i'll burn your books.
As for the terrorists, I find it extremely repugnant for them to make a 'home video' of each 'martyr' (i call them victims) before they are sent out to die.
It's strangely ironic. The leaders like arafat and saddam and those in hamas all preach suicide bombing...but are poor followers of their own doctrine. I guess if you're the head honcco, it's ok to ask innocent young men and women to go blow thmselves up (for the great cause...72 virgins await) but someone has to stay around here to ask more people to go huh.
"young men, blowing yourselves up is your god-bound duty! You will all become martyrs, better than me! but much as i'd like to join you in self sacrifice, i have an appointment later with other leaders who just sent their legions of bombers off. Then i have to speak to CNN to tell you what a good job you did"
How pathetic.
If Saddam and araft belived so much in martyrdom, they should lead by example. I'm very sure the Israelis wouldn't mind that. (and I'm sure neither would the rest of the world)
Real leaders practice what they preach.
When the ANC renounced violence and turned itself into a legitimate political party, most of its leaders lad down their arms and called on their followers to do the same. Those that refused were expelled from the group.
Unfortunately, the snake that is arafat offers flowers in one hand and bombs in the other. with such a mixed and equivocal message being sent to the Israelis, it's no wonder that they don't trust him.
"Hey guys, I really really do want peace with the Israelis, but just to keep them on their toes, here are a few more human bombs coming your way."
Ah. Palestinian logic backed with Iraqi money working at its best. -
Isn't that what the terrorist always do, hide behind civillians and us them as human shield. Iraq did the same, Taliban did the same so why wouldn't Palestinians do that? They are so eager to cry foul if the civillians are killed. But it was ok with them when the sucide bombers kill dozens of Israeli civillians everytime. Their mind are really twisted to the degree that the can justify whatever they do but condemn anyone who do the same to them....Originally posted by Shotgun:If the cowardly palestinian fighters don't keep ducking behind their own women and children for cover, there wouldn't be any civilian casualties. They hide within the civilians instead of away from them. Tell me, is that in the interest of the palestinian population, or in the interest of self preservation?
Personally, I've seen Israel take waves and waves of suicidal attacks, and I feel its about bloody time they hit back hard.
I have no sympathy for the fanatics muslims or anyone who call for a Jihad. However, I still think that Israel do need to be very careful and exercise restraint when they hit back. Afterall, this is non conventional war. Do have to take civilians into account.
US would have felt what the current Israeli army is going through after the Somalia black hawk issues. My hearts go to those Israeli soldiers in the heat battles.
BTW, the Palenstinians did get a kick when they blew up a Merkava 3. Well, I think they just got lucky that their trap worked. I still think Merkava is still the best protected tank in the work. An Abram M1A2 or Leo 2A6 would suffer the same fate if hit by the same mine. -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1948000/1948502.stm
Hey, what do you know, more hamas lofic at work.
"hey boys, don't kill yourselves now trying to sneak into Israeli lines...wait till you're older when we train you how to sneak in properly, THEN kill yourselves."
Precious lives my ass. These people are heartless terrorists who have twisted logic. -
There seems to be rather skewed sympathies present here... Has it ever occurred to anyone that BOTH sides are villians?
Sharon is a definite political "hawk" given his credentials and experience... He doesn't trust the Arabs and given his formative experience, why should he? They did try to invade his country twice u know... and they've been blowing themselves up in crowded places for a long time; suicide bombing is nothing new to him.
Arafat is a trapped because he can see no other way to make the Israelis listen: thats why he deems it necessary to "bomb them to an agreement" which blew up in his face instead. And his formative experience was that the Israelis tried more than once to kill him and previous talks have led to very little breakthrough and they only understand and listens to the language of Force.
U put these two together and u have what happened in the past month... 2 stubborn, intransigent individuals with vested interests trying to get their way through force because they know the other side is not willing to listen.
Hence, I believe that the only victims here are the civillians, both Israeli and Palestinian. Men with guns killing each other don't deserve that label, neither do stubborn, crooked politicians who won't commit themselves to peaceful solutions.
------------------
I never saw a wild thing
sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.
D. H. Lawrence -
CX,Originally posted by CX:There seems to be rather skewed sympathies present here... Has it ever occurred to anyone that BOTH sides are villians?
Sharon is a definite political "hawk" given his credentials and experience... He doesn't trust the Arabs and given his formative experience, why should he? They did try to invade his country twice u know... and they've been blowing themselves up in crowded places for a long time; suicide bombing is nothing new to him.
Arafat is a trapped because he can see no other way to make the Israelis listen: thats why he deems it necessary to "bomb them to an agreement" which blew up in his face instead. And his formative experience was that the Israelis tried more than once to kill him and previous talks have led to very little breakthrough and they only understand and listens to the language of Force.
U put these two together and u have what happened in the past month... 2 stubborn, intransigent individuals with vested interests trying to get their way through force because they know the other side is not willing to listen.
Hence, I believe that the only victims here are the civillians, both Israeli and Palestinian. Men with guns killing each other don't deserve that label, neither do stubborn, crooked politicians who won't commit themselves to peaceful solutions.
I agree with you when you say that both leaders are who set this entire bloodbath whch has been the last 3 weeks. But read my post above, didn't Arafat have chances to work with Rabin, Peres and even Netanyahu before Sharon came to power? Oslo, Tenet, Mitchell and Camp David II came and went, even before Sharon managed to legitimise himself and bring conflict to the region again. Yes, maybe back in Rabin and Peres days, Arafat was sincere about peace, but he sure could have done a damn sight more than he actually did to stop Hamas and Islamic Jihad from torpedoing the peace process. That was when the world had a real chance of peace, all it required was a little sacrifice, to risk a bit of wrath from his countrymen, clamp down on Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and even though he would be condemned initially for arresting his own, once the benefits of peace become obvious, with the radicals truly in jail where they belong(instead of putting them in jail thru the front door and letting them out thru the back), the people would soon be willing to make peace. Instead he became greedy, held out for compromises no Israeli leader could make, and be elected next term, and when that failed, sent his goons to pressure them. This is what brought Sharon to power. Nothing else.
I've said before, I don't like Sharon, I hate his politics, but Arafat brought him to power.
In short, he asked for it. You reap what you sow. -
Do U think it is that easy stopping Hamas if the Jews don't give way? During the time when Rabin and Peres or even Barak was in charge, there was significantly less sucide bombing with exception from th extremist. Why? This is because the Palestine were willing to believe that Israel was willing to give peace a chance. However under the far right now, what have they shown so far? Reduction of territories, killing of children.Originally posted by Viper52:CX,
I agree with you when you say that both leaders are who set this entire bloodbath whch has been the last 3 weeks. But read my post above, didn't Arafat have chances to work with Rabin, Peres and even Netanyahu before Sharon came to power? Oslo, Tenet, Mitchell and Camp David II came and went, even before Sharon managed to legitimise himself and bring conflict to the region again. Yes, maybe back in Rabin and Peres days, Arafat was sincere about peace, but he sure could have done a damn sight more than he actually did to stop Hamas and Islamic Jihad from torpedoing the peace process. That was when the world had a real chance of peace, all it required was a little sacrifice, to risk a bit of wrath from his countrymen, clamp down on Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and even though he would be condemned initially for arresting his own, once the benefits of peace become obvious, with the radicals truly in jail where they belong(instead of putting them in jail thru the front door and letting them out thru the back), the people would soon be willing to make peace. Instead he became greedy, held out for compromises no Israeli leader could make, and be elected next term, and when that failed, sent his goons to pressure them. This is what brought Sharon to power. Nothing else.
I've said before, I don't like Sharon, I hate his politics, but Arafat brought him to power.
In short, he asked for it. You reap what you sow.
You claim that Arafat created the devil called Sharon. Have U ever wondered why? Do U think it is possible to wipe away 40 years of mistrust in just a matter of 5 years?
U claim that everything was done to make the Israelis look bad....have U all ever try considering yourself in the Palestine shoes? When face with tanks and infantry trying to destroy your homeland, would U all not try means and ways to defend your home? So what a shipment of rockets where found? Can it fight the best pilots in the world trying to reduce your home to rubble?
U all claimed that I was biased. But looking at Your post, there hasn't been a single moment U all been condemning Palestine again and again. I presented facts, but U all chose to view it under a pro-Israel's stance.
Suppose Singapore is invaded one day, won;t U all do the same? Won;t U all hide behind rubble and kill one more person trying to invade your nation?
These people, viewed under their circumstances are freedom fighters. Who wants war? Who doesn't want a peaceful enviroment to allow their children to grow in? But unless Israel and their allies PRo-right US stop all their double sided ways...there will be no peace.
Sudaimiki formerly known as FuckSpore4ever -
Freedom fighters? Then they are not merely fighting for their own freedom but to deprive others of this same freedom as well.
As far as i'm concerned, anybody who walks into a restaurant, shopping mall or place of worship with a bomb round his waist and blowing himself, along with everybody else up, is no freedom fighter, but a fucking terrorist.
The Palestinians have legitimate grievances: that is a point which nobody in the world can deny... but Israel and America are not the only ones treating them like shit.
Ask yourself: how many Palestinians are stranded in refugee camps in the Arab states, living in squalid conditions, with no future, no rights of return and no future? and Why? So they can be showcased to the world once in awhile to prove that the Israelis are the bad guys!
I don't agree with Israel's military actions but I simply cannot accept the PoV that Israel alone was responsible for this mess.
That Arafat refused to do anything more than pay lips service to stopping the suicide bombing just shows that (a) he doesn't really care if more people die and (b) he thinks that it'll further his political ends and (c) he may not even be in control of his people or he does not wish to piss off the hardliners by appearing soft. Either way, that he has actually condoned or failed to stop the organised murder of civillians is unforgivable.
In the same way, Sharon, by refusing to address the Palestinian problem, by provoking the issue by building more Jewish settlements in the west bank and by authorising brutal military crackdowns whose long term effectiveness was questionable has shown himself for what he really is: a war criminal.
Viper52,
I hope u see that i am trying to offer a balanced view here... Many things could have been done by both sides at many points in time, but they weren't. I am not under the illusion that the Israelis are more flexible than the Palestinians in their terms: they certainly are not. They want security, they want land and they are willing to fight for it. The Palestinians are no different. The problem is that both sides perceive that real gain can only be acquired from the other party's loss, which is fucked up. This is a place in the world where "collective security" means nothing at all!
A popular right-wing argument in Israel is that the Arabs want East Jerusalum now. If Israel gives it to them, whats gonna happen when they demand Tel Aviv and Haifa?
This precisely highlights my point: they don't trust each other and have no reason to do so because they've all proven themselves to be crooks at one point in time or the other!
I've said this before and I'll say this again: everybody in the Mid-East is at least partially responsible for this mess now.
------------------
I never saw a wild thing
sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.
D. H. Lawrence -
and Sudaimiki.
I have nothing but scorn and disgust for Arafat for condoning the murder of men, women and children.
I detest Sharon with every iota of my existence for his intransigence and his brutal military campaign against terrorists which resulted in so much civillian casualties and needless suffering.
But if I call Sharon a war criminal, I believe I will be fully justified to call Arafat a terrorist as well.
But tell me this: what would you rather have both of them do in light of the fact that these two people as you say, have distrusted each other for 40 years??
Why is America involved in the Gulf? For obvious reasons: Oil and Jews. There would've been another holocaust in that region if the US were not there to restrain the radical Arabs and America needs the region to be stable so that the oil will flow. So in fact, stability is the region is important and beneficial to them.
What they can't handle is the complexity of that region and the diverse interests which they have to balance. Interests incidentally, which no one is willing to compromise on.
So really, who's left to blame for a bad poker game when all the players refuse to blink and have their cards under the table instead of on it?
------------------
I never saw a wild thing
sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.
D. H. Lawrence -
Give way? Give way to WHAT? The Palestinian people aren't even a nation. They should count themselves lucky they aren't, cos I would probably declare war officially, instead of this overt "covert" war.Originally posted by Sudaimiki:Do U think it is that easy stopping Hamas if the Jews don't give way? During the time when Rabin and Peres or even Barak was in charge, there was significantly less sucide bombing with exception from th extremist. Why? This is because the Palestine were willing to believe that Israel was willing to give peace a chance. However under the far right now, what have they shown so far? Reduction of territories, killing of children.
You claim that Arafat created the devil called Sharon. Have U ever wondered why? Do U think it is possible to wipe away 40 years of mistrust in just a matter of 5 years?
U claim that everything was done to make the Israelis look bad....have U all ever try considering yourself in the Palestine shoes? When face with tanks and infantry trying to destroy your homeland, would U all not try means and ways to defend your home? So what a shipment of rockets where found? Can it fight the best pilots in the world trying to reduce your home to rubble?
U all claimed that I was biased. But looking at Your post, there hasn't been a single moment U all been condemning Palestine again and again. I presented facts, but U all chose to view it under a pro-Israel's stance.
Suppose Singapore is invaded one day, won;t U all do the same? Won;t U all hide behind rubble and kill one more person trying to invade your nation?
These people, viewed under their circumstances are freedom fighters. Who wants war? Who doesn't want a peaceful enviroment to allow their children to grow in? But unless Israel and their allies PRo-right US stop all their double sided ways...there will be no peace.
Sudaimiki formerly known as FuckSpore4ever
Now, as for Lord Moyne, let us consider. Lehi, the organization that perpetrated the the assassination. They considered the brit to be responsible for the deporation of immigrant ships. That was why he was targetted. 2nd, consider the era of 1940, and 1948, people were fighting for their independence from the British colonial rule. Unfortunately, Lehi's activities included the attacks of british government officials, as well as military targets. Eventually, when they murdered Swedish count, Folke Bernadotte, they got themselves outlawed and hunted. Finally tried in a military court with long jail terms.
Compare this to the ruckus in the Middle East now. The stark differences stand. Hamas is targetting civilian populations, killing women and children. Utter bullshit if you say they were targeting military personnel, cos Israeli government keeps the bulk of military personnel near border zones, well away from civillians. Finally, Lehi was eventually captured, closed down, trialed. Has this happened to Hamas? As Arafat even taken any other steps to stop Hamas's attacks? Arafat's words are worth NOTHING, it is the Hamas leaders that are in control of the situation now.
If you think about it yourself, now. Sure, Lehi, the Jewish "Terrorist" organization commited acts that are not tolerable. But they were doing this to get out of Colonial rule. Both Singapore and Malaysia was under heavy British influence and control at that time. Tell me, was it pretty? The Brits abandoned us when the Japs came in charging. Do you think that the Jews would have tolerated the British at that time? What the organization did was wrong, but they carried it out in desperate times, where many others around the world were trying to forsake their Colonial masters.
What are the Palestinian's trying to escape from? "Oppressive Jewish Masters?" I tell you, nobody wants conflict. Israel, an ESTABLISHED country, has no reason to seek conflict with a people that doesn't even own the land they sit on. As far as they are concerned, they'd rather mind their own business.... not that their Arab neighbours allow that is.
Read the book? More like read the bookS, and examine results for various sources. Books tend to be biased, thus its better extract from more sources and obtain your own opinion.