IDF in Jenin
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Originally posted by Sudaimiki:Do U think it is that easy stopping Hamas if the Jews don't give way? During the time when Rabin and Peres or even Barak was in charge, there was significantly less sucide bombing with exception from th extremist. Why? This is because the Palestine were willing to believe that Israel was willing to give peace a chance. However under the far right now, what have they shown so far? Reduction of territories, killing of children.
You claim that Arafat created the devil called Sharon. Have U ever wondered why? Do U think it is possible to wipe away 40 years of mistrust in just a matter of 5 years?
U claim that everything was done to make the Israelis look bad....have U all ever try considering yourself in the Palestine shoes? When face with tanks and infantry trying to destroy your homeland, would U all not try means and ways to defend your home? So what a shipment of rockets where found? Can it fight the best pilots in the world trying to reduce your home to rubble?
U all claimed that I was biased. But looking at Your post, there hasn't been a single moment U all been condemning Palestine again and again. I presented facts, but U all chose to view it under a pro-Israel's stance.
Suppose Singapore is invaded one day, won;t U all do the same? Won;t U all hide behind rubble and kill one more person trying to invade your nation?
These people, viewed under their circumstances are freedom fighters. Who wants war? Who doesn't want a peaceful enviroment to allow their children to grow in? But unless Israel and their allies PRo-right US stop all their double sided ways...there will be no peace.
Sudaimiki formerly known as FuckSpore4ever -
My view is much more simplistic.....Originally posted by CX:and Sudaimiki.
I have nothing but scorn and disgust for Arafat for condoning the murder of men, women and children.
I detest Sharon with every iota of my existence for his intransigence and his brutal military campaign against terrorists which resulted in so much civillian casualties and needless suffering.
But if I call Sharon a war criminal, I believe I will be fully justified to call Arafat a terrorist as well.
But tell me this: what would you rather have both of them do in light of the fact that these two people as you say, have distrusted each other for 40 years??
Why is America involved in the Gulf? For obvious reasons: Oil and Jews. There would've been another holocaust in that region if the US were not there to restrain the radical Arabs and America needs the region to be stable so that the oil will flow. So in fact, stability is the region is important and beneficial to them.
What they can't handle is the complexity of that region and the diverse interests which they have to balance. Interests incidentally, which no one is willing to compromise on.
So really, who's left to blame for a bad poker game when all the players refuse to blink and have their cards under the table instead of on it?
Deliberate attack on civilians are nothing more then a terrorist act... which should be condemned by the whole world.... IRREGUARDLESS... the reasonings behind such an attack....legitimate or NOT.
The failure of the world to come to the aid of isreal when isrealis civilians were blown to smithereens embolden the terrorist and gave the isrealis the impression that they are alone.... HAD the EU (baboon politicians) get their acts together to come down hard on arafat... and give the arab leaders a few tight slap... all this would not have come to pass... BUT... OIL was on the EUs mind...
THE EUs dont give a fuck about whether isrealis die or the palestinians were rotting in some GOD forsaken land... they only care for themselves.... and when the arabs start to pull the oil pipe... suddenly these 'moralist' start to jump up from nowhere and condemn isreal for its incursion into the west bank!!
We may hate each other to the hilt.... but even then... we must control ourselves and see clearly that we must not go mad... if we start killing the enemies civilians... then... how can we blame the enemies for killing our civilians?? arent... the pot calling the kettle black?? If USA is double standard... the arab nations are not the fair either.... and IF USA is the SATAN... the arabs are not the far off either....
Organizations (state or otherwise) who perpetrate such acts of terrorism... either through active support or condoning such attacks by turning a blind eyes, be they HAMAS, ARAFAT or the IDF should be considered as partaking in terrorism and should be held fully accountable for such acts.
IF arafat cannot control the hamas.... then he should officially resign to take full responsibility for the deaths of the civilian isrealis.... this would show the palestinians that he does not support terrorism while at the same time show the isrealis.. that he does not condone such horrific acts of murder.... BUT... so far... all we see.. is he going around praising praising the terrorist....
The palestinians and isrealis are gonna be neighbour for a long time to come.... its in their hands to either shake hands and live harmoniously or they can place their hands on each others throat.... But understand... that eliminating one enemy... does not bring peace... it merely brings another enemy closer to your throat. -
just to add something.... i have met muslims who claimed that had isreal not existed... there would not have any conflict in the middle east.... BUT that can never be... ARABS... europeans or asians or americans... its all the same.... all have fear.. all have desire... all have wants thats exceed the resources available... all have their unique opinion.... and when interest crash... war sparks fly... even among arabs.. there were wars.. even among muslims... there were wars.... all this bullshit of commonality in religion or race is all cowdung in my view....Originally posted by tripwire:My view is much more simplistic.....
Deliberate attack on civilians are nothing more then a terrorist act... which should be condemned by the whole world.... IRREGUARDLESS... the reasonings behind such an attack....legitimate or NOT.
The failure of the world to come to the aid of isreal when isrealis civilians were blown to smithereens embolden the terrorist and gave the isrealis the impression that they are alone.... HAD the EU (baboon politicians) get their acts together to come down hard on arafat... and give the arab leaders a few tight slap... all this would not have come to pass... BUT... OIL was on the EUs mind...
THE EUs dont give a fuck about whether isrealis die or the palestinians were rotting in some GOD forsaken land... they only care for themselves.... and when the arabs start to pull the oil pipe... suddenly these 'moralist' start to jump up from nowhere and condemn isreal for its incursion into the west bank!!
We may hate each other to the hilt.... but even then... we must control ourselves and see clearly that we must not go mad... if we start killing the enemies civilians... then... how can we blame the enemies for killing our civilians?? arent... the pot calling the kettle black?? If USA is double standard... the arab nations are not the fair either.... and IF USA is the SATAN... the arabs are not the far off either....
Organizations (state or otherwise) who perpetrate such acts of terrorism... either through active support or condoning such attacks by turning a blind eyes, be they HAMAS, ARAFAT or the IDF should be considered as partaking in terrorism and should be held fully accountable for such acts.
IF arafat cannot control the hamas.... then he should officially resign to take full responsibility for the deaths of the civilian isrealis.... this would show the palestinians that he does not support terrorism while at the same time show the isrealis.. that he does not condone such horrific acts of murder.... BUT... so far... all we see.. is he going around praising praising the terrorist....
The palestinians and isrealis are gonna be neighbour for a long time to come.... its in their hands to either shake hands and live harmoniously or they can place their hands on each others throat.... But understand... that eliminating one enemy... does not bring peace... it merely brings another enemy closer to your throat.
And if sharon is a war criminal... then those people who sit in the UNSC... the EU and all those arab leaders are no better either.... they failed to rein in the terrorist... some even actively or covertly support the terrorist.... the puppet master behind the murderers....
AND if sharon should be send on trial... all the arab leaders too should be trialed with sharon....
BUT if the world felt that ARAFAT was not wrong and merely defending his people through watever means he can muster.... then the world must also ACCEPT sharon's action as nothing more then merely defending his people.... through watever means he can muster too....
[This message has been edited by tripwire (edited 26 April 2002).] -
Shotgun,Originally posted by CX:Freedom fighters? Then they are not merely fighting for their own freedom but to deprive others of this same freedom as well.
As far as i'm concerned, anybody who walks into a restaurant, shopping mall or place of worship with a bomb round his waist and blowing himself, along with everybody else up, is no freedom fighter, but a fucking terrorist.
The Palestinians have legitimate grievances: that is a point which nobody in the world can deny... but Israel and America are not the only ones treating them like shit.
Ask yourself: how many Palestinians are stranded in refugee camps in the Arab states, living in squalid conditions, with no future, no rights of return and no future? and Why? So they can be showcased to the world once in awhile to prove that the Israelis are the bad guys!
I don't agree with Israel's military actions but I simply cannot accept the PoV that Israel alone was responsible for this mess.
That Arafat refused to do anything more than pay lips service to stopping the suicide bombing just shows that (a) he doesn't really care if more people die and (b) he thinks that it'll further his political ends and (c) he may not even be in control of his people or he does not wish to piss off the hardliners by appearing soft. Either way, that he has actually condoned or failed to stop the organised murder of civillians is unforgivable.
In the same way, Sharon, by refusing to address the Palestinian problem, by provoking the issue by building more Jewish settlements in the west bank and by authorising brutal military crackdowns whose long term effectiveness was questionable has shown himself for what he really is: a war criminal.
Viper52,
I hope u see that i am trying to offer a balanced view here... Many things could have been done by both sides at many points in time, but they weren't. I am not under the illusion that the Israelis are more flexible than the Palestinians in their terms: they certainly are not. They want security, they want land and they are willing to fight for it. The Palestinians are no different. The problem is that both sides perceive that real gain can only be acquired from the other party's loss, which is fucked up. This is a place in the world where "collective security" means nothing at all!
A popular right-wing argument in Israel is that the Arabs want East Jerusalum now. If Israel gives it to them, whats gonna happen when they demand Tel Aviv and Haifa?
This precisely highlights my point: they don't trust each other and have no reason to do so because they've all proven themselves to be crooks at one point in time or the other!
I've said this before and I'll say this again: everybody in the Mid-East is at least partially responsible for this mess now.
As usual U take a biased view on the matter. Do U think Arafat would want to do the actions he did {that is assuming he even sent the sucide bombers in the first place}. Under his circumstances, then ends justifies the means. The palestine people are trying to protect their own home land.
Utter bullshit? U said that the palestines have no rigth to talk about because this was not their land to begin with? Then all chinese and indians and other races should go back to their respective homelands based on your arguments? Stupid isn't it? The palestines were there since 7 A.D or even earlier. This gives them as much right to the Israel's to the land. Further more under the 1948 treaty, there was to be a Israeli and Palestine state. Look what has happened today.
First in giving Israel their land, would they gain anything in return then ? There was no significant contributions nothing. Furthermore, there has been so much escalation before the first Arab-Israel war started.
If what did Lehi did was a justifiable wrong, then what the palestines are doing are correct also. And I have never once in my post supported Hamas for their sucide bombings on children and women. I am speaking out for those palestine in Jenin who had no other way out but to resort to what they did. All's fair in love and war.
Books, yes I have read books and I am merely quoting from one of them. All history books will show that what I had mentioned was the truth.
There is nothing more to be said by me since the people in this forum could not be convinced by rational thinking and argument and choose to follow their own biaseness in this matter. -
CX, I'm sorry if my reply to your post has caused any offence, it was not meant to.Originally posted by Sudaimiki:[QUOTE]Originally posted by CX:
There is nothing more to be said by me since the people in this forum could not be convinced by rational thinking and argument and choose to follow their own biaseness in this matter.
I agree with your point that a fair and balanced view is needed when judging the players and the situation in the Mid-East. That is why I wonder why the world is repeated criticizing the Israelis for taking out the leaders of the terrorist organizations, calling it "assasinations" and asking Israel to stop. These people are civilian in their clothing only, by leading a military campaign against Israel and ordering attacks on civilians, they have declared themselves to be legitimate military targets and therefore when they are attacked, they do not have the right to complain and accuse Israel of violating the rules of war.
Sudaimiki, Israel kills women and children? I cannot argue with that. The IDF itself has admitted that women and children were indeed killed by the offensive, and during its targeted killings of the murderers, terrorists and madmen of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, Al-Aqsa or whatever they call themselves. However we must take things into perspective. While I do not condone the killing of women and children, just simply answer me this: Which is less justifiable? The killing of women and children accidentally while attacking a legit military target whos hiding among them? Or killing women and children deliberately when they're out for a stroll or just eating lunch, with no soldier or military target in sight??
And as for the shooting of children during the stone-throwing phase of the intifada, the soldiers were condemned for shooting unarmed, protesting children. Well, to these people, let me ask you to stand still in front of me while I grab the biggest rock I can throw and hurl it at their face. If I don't kill you or injure you seriously then I'll happily condemn the IDF for shooting unarmed, defenceless children.
Your attitude is the precise reason why blood continues to be shed today. : His fathers brothers nieces uncles cousins aunts sisters father killed my fathers brothers nieces uncles cousins aunts sisters father 40(or 600 or 6000) years ago, therefore I'm justified in getting revenge. Of course the war will not stop. And this is a attitude problem thats happening with extremists on both sides, not just the Palestinians
As for the statement you've made above which I've quoted, thats just so typical. Lose an argument and you start ranting about how the other side in unreasonable unfathomable headstrong bulls with attitudes that left a lot to be desired. -
***** Do U think it is that easy stopping Hamas if the Jews don't give way? During the time when Rabin and Peres or even Barak was in charge, there was significantly less sucide bombing with exception from th extremist. Why? This is because the Palestine were willing to believe that Israel was willing to give peace a chance. However under the far right now, what have they shown so far? Reduction of territories, killing of children. *****
Yes I agree that suicide bombings were reduced in the past. But what I questioned is Arafats failure to even attempt to stop them, which as we have seen, has led to him graduating to even encouraging them. Do you think the Palestinians were the only ones who wanted peace? Did the Israeli public not celebrate when the first Oslo accords were signed in 1993? Did they not support Arafat's initial efforts? So why did it change? It changed not because the suicide bombings did not stop, it changed because he did not even lift a finger to try and stop it.
As for Israel not compromising, what do you call Israels acceptance of the Tenet and Mitchell plans, even though they fell well short of Israeli demands? The were willing to hand over the Gaza Strip, and hand over partial autonomy of the West Bank and E Jerusalem for a start, and continue discussions on eventually ceding all control of the West Bank. If these are not compromises, what are they? But what did Arafat do? He said no, he wanted all of West Bank and Jerusalem, and refused to call in Arabic to stop suicide bombing and try his utmost to ensure Israeli security. In short, he wanted everything but gave away nothing. So who did not compromise?
***** U claim that everything was done to make the Israelis look bad....have U all ever try considering yourself in the Palestine shoes? When face with tanks and infantry trying to destroy your homeland, would U all not try means and ways to defend your home? So what a shipment of rockets where found? Can it fight the best pilots in the world trying to reduce your home to rubble? *****
Yes...of course I would. I would defend my home by attacking the tanks and the infantry attacking my home. Not walking into a cafe carrying a bomb and blowing myself up, along with innocent women and children. Thats murder, not defending their homes. The soldiers and tanks are destroying their homes, not the women and children. They were just drinking coffee and eating pizzas.
*** U all claimed that I was biased. But looking at Your post, there hasn't been a single moment U all been condemning Palestine again and again. I presented facts, but U all chose to view it under a pro-Israel's stance. ***
We presented facts as well, lots of them. For starters,
1) Arafats refusal to condemn suicide bombings and stopping it.
2) Terrorists attacking women and children instead of facing the soldiers like they should.
3) Israel reducing its demands in the hopes of peace while the Palestinians refusing to budge at the negotiating table.
These are facts as well, and I've presented these. But to use what you said, you chose to view these facts using a pro-Palestinian stance. Haven't you become the pot that called the kettle black?
***** Suppose Singapore is invaded one day, won;t U all do the same? Won;t U all hide behind rubble and kill one more person trying to invade your nation? *****
Like I said. I would, but by shooting at the invading army, trying to kill their soldiers, destroy their tanks, shoot down their planes. That makes me a freedom fighter defending my family and my home. Not by blowing up a cafe full of women and children, regardless of their nationality. That makes me a cowardly murderer who does not have the balls to fight his oppressors
I refuted your arguments point by point, why don't you do the same instead of slapping us with childish tags like "pro-Israeli". I've said I don't like Sharon before, I disagreed with his policies and I hate his politics. I already called the recent operations and overreaction, yet I've not even seen you make one statement acknowledging the Palestinians could have done more to prevent this. Who's biased now?
[This message has been edited by Viper52 (edited 26 April 2002).] -
Viper, I have stated that I do not condone Hamas sucidal action. I only do not condone Israel's recent incursion. In such events, there has been bad blood on both sides that could not be resolved using words or actions in 10 years , mistrust which accumulated over 40 years.
First, I would offer my sincere apologies if I had been irrational on my part. This issue is extremely emotional for me and I have some friends who are Palestines...naturally I would want to be with their causes and share their pain.
Secondly, I wish to point out that us beening bystanders in this issue could not possiblity tell if either side have taken genuine action . Our knowledge and judgement are in a sense impared by what we have read and in some sense what we choose to believe.
I believe the truth will come to light as history unveils itself.
Till then it is nice debating this issue with U.
Ta. -
Sudaimiki, the ends do not justify the means. Suicide bombers are not a legitimate tool of war, no matter how justifiable the struggle.
Suicide bombers are repugnant, as are child soldiers, as are Irish terrorists who use nuns to hide explosives under their gowns to transport them.
Yes at some basic level I do sympathise with the Palestinians, OTOH, I also do not support Sharon's policies of settlement building. I think that that is unnecessarily aggressive and provocative.
But if the palestinians want international sympathy, they are not going to get it by blowing up civilian shopping malls and passover gatherings.
You say that Jewish soldiers shoot civilians, but these 'civilians' throw rocks and petrol bombs and hurl slingshots at the soldiers at the guard post. My friend is one of them and yes, he's shot at palestinian teenagers before. You would too if you were facing rabid mobs like that, outnumbered 50-1.
You say the palestinians have had no choice, but to resort to such tactics, but i disagree. If they are so well funded by the Iranians and the Iraqis, not to mention the syrians and Jordanians; and they have a vast array of weapons, they these weapons should be turned on soldiers, not on civilians. Besides, why even resort to weapons? The Palestinians were offered countless confidence building measures, which arafat rejected time and again; holding out for goodness knows what.
It's the palestinian policy of holding out for 'statehood and full independence or nothing' policy that is killing them. Israel has been through too much to just give it to them like that. What about Israel's position? And that is even assuming that there is even support for palestinian statehood. Ironically, more jews support a palestinian state than those 2 faced lying arab bastards. They use the palestinians like a continued fester on the israelis to justify their own militant causes and to prop up their own undemocratic rule.
They in fact are the worse violaters of palestinian rights , more than israel.
Did you know that before these incursions started, Israel was the palestinian state's biggest trading partner? Whereas Jordan and Syria slapped such huges taxes on palestinian produce that the their goods were effectively shut out - elsewhere, thousands of palestinians continue to be fenced in and continue to rot in refugee camps in egypt and other arab countries.
If these arab countries are so big on muslim brotherhood then, put their economies where their mouths are. These arab countries don't even allow the palestinians to work legally in their countries, So much for muslim brotherhood, those 2 faced liars. At least the great 'zionist satan' allowed restricted working passes for legitimate work in Israel.
The only things the arabs are interested in is in yanking the chain of the palestinians as their pet cause, to cause Israel more and more embarassment, and the only money they contribute to the palestinians goes to the militants.
Did one arab nation even bother paying for facilities for the palestinian authorities' structures before the incursion started? No, it was Israel, Norway and the US who paid the bucks for it, as well as other G-7 countries.
The only money i remember coming from the arabs like saddam goes to encouraging more cowardly dog suicide attacks.
"blow yourself for saddam and for martydom, uncle saddam will pay your family $25,000"
This money that can be well spent improving the living conditions of the palestinian refugee despora all over the middle east. Never ONCE have the gulf states done anything more than voice more than rhetoric about the palestinians, and giving moral support.
So much for muslim brotherhood. More like a convenient excuse for saddam and the undemocratic oil-pot monach dictators.
The jews have done much more for the palestinians that the arab world combined. -
Viper52,
Get real... I'm not that easily offended. I'm bigger than that.
Its true... our views are coloured by what we get to read. American newspapers are not always good sources to start on this topic 'cos its inherenly biased towards Israel. But that is precisely the point: why do they see a need to skew it unless the "truth" is in need of some creative re-interpretation... Furthermore, they are not the only ones doing it... Mid-Eastern newspapers do the same thing for the other side.
But what i do feel, is that while America remains consistent in its support for Israel, the Mid-east oil states expresses support or solidarity with the Palestinians only when there's a crisis or when it suits their purpose. A very good example is 1990. That Saddam Hussein actually tried to link the Palestinian issue to his invasion of Kuwait... thats twisted reasoning and no one else was fooled but thats exactly the point.
No Arab state has consistently sounght to rehabilitate the situation. They prefer to manage and exploit a crisis whe it occurs rather than address it and prevent it beforehand.
------------------
I never saw a wild thing
sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.
D. H. Lawrence -
i agree with nofrill... in fact.. i found a website that shows just that....Originally posted by No Frill:Sudaimiki, the ends do not justify the means. Suicide bombers are not a legitimate tool of war, no matter how justifiable the struggle.
Suicide bombers are repugnant, as are child soldiers, as are Irish terrorists who use nuns to hide explosives under their gowns to transport them.
Yes at some basic level I do sympathise with the Palestinians, OTOH, I also do not support Sharon's policies of settlement building. I think that that is unnecessarily aggressive and provocative.
But if the palestinians want international sympathy, they are not going to get it by blowing up civilian shopping malls and passover gatherings.
You say that Jewish soldiers shoot civilians, but these 'civilians' throw rocks and petrol bombs and hurl slingshots at the soldiers at the guard post. My friend is one of them and yes, he's shot at palestinian teenagers before. You would too if you were facing rabid mobs like that, outnumbered 50-1.
You say the palestinians have had no choice, but to resort to such tactics, but i disagree. If they are so well funded by the Iranians and the Iraqis, not to mention the syrians and Jordanians; and they have a vast array of weapons, they these weapons should be turned on soldiers, not on civilians. Besides, why even resort to weapons? The Palestinians were offered countless confidence building measures, which arafat rejected time and again; holding out for goodness knows what.
It's the palestinian policy of holding out for 'statehood and full independence or nothing' policy that is killing them. Israel has been through too much to just give it to them like that. What about Israel's position? And that is even assuming that there is even support for palestinian statehood. Ironically, more jews support a palestinian state than those 2 faced lying arab bastards. They use the palestinians like a continued fester on the israelis to justify their own militant causes and to prop up their own undemocratic rule.
They in fact are the worse violaters of palestinian rights , more than israel.
Did you know that before these incursions started, Israel was the palestinian state's biggest trading partner? Whereas Jordan and Syria slapped such huges taxes on palestinian produce that the their goods were effectively shut out - elsewhere, thousands of palestinians continue to be fenced in and continue to rot in refugee camps in egypt and other arab countries.
If these arab countries are so big on muslim brotherhood then, put their economies where their mouths are. These arab countries don't even allow the palestinians to work legally in their countries, So much for muslim brotherhood, those 2 faced liars. At least the great 'zionist satan' allowed restricted working passes for legitimate work in Israel.
The only things the arabs are interested in is in yanking the chain of the palestinians as their pet cause, to cause Israel more and more embarassment, and the only money they contribute to the palestinians goes to the militants.
Did one arab nation even bother paying for facilities for the palestinian authorities' structures before the incursion started? No, it was Israel, Norway and the US who paid the bucks for it, as well as other G-7 countries.
The only money i remember coming from the arabs like saddam goes to encouraging more cowardly dog suicide attacks.
"blow yourself for saddam and for martydom, uncle saddam will pay your family $25,000"
This money that can be well spent improving the living conditions of the palestinian refugee despora all over the middle east. Never ONCE have the gulf states done anything more than voice more than rhetoric about the palestinians, and giving moral support.
So much for muslim brotherhood. More like a convenient excuse for saddam and the undemocratic oil-pot monach dictators.
The jews have done much more for the palestinians that the arab world combined.
http://www.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk/warhist/wars/palestine.htm
The palestinians even attempted to overthrow the jordan king to establish their palestinian state in jordan!!.... luckily for jordan they won... after sending 35,000 palestians to their grave....
If isrealis raid on jenin can be called a massacre... wow .... the jordanians must be carrying out a genocide!!
As it goes to show... the palestinians are the least welcome lot in the middle east!! -
Freedom Fighters? I think not.
(Warning: The following link contains pictures that might offend some readers)
http://www.serve.com/lordgovernor/children/ -
No offense taken =) U are entitled to your views and I to mine. I won't want this to spoil our online rapport.Originally posted by Viper52:Freedom Fighters? I think not.
(Warning: The following link contains pictures that might offend some readers)
http://www.serve.com/lordgovernor/children/ -
The sad thing is that somehow all the news stations refuse to carry such pictures...instead preferring to carry pictures of wounded / dead paleatinians.
oh well. ironically, the 'evil zionist infidel' press that the palestinians rail against, actually do seem to show them better PR! -
After years of intermittent fighting between the Israelis and Palestinians, the two bitter enemies have finally taken the historic step to abandon the Middle East peace process, and to give war a chance to settle their differences.
In a brief statement, the Israeli government said, "Despite years of so-called peace talks, we have made no progress in resolving all our issues with the Palestinians. We believe that time has come to take the next, logical step, which is all-out war. We hope that this new development in our relationship will lead to a final, lasting settlement between our two peace-loving peoples."
In response, a spokesman for the Palestinian Authority had this to say. "We welcome this bold new initiative by the Israeli government. No longer shall insane hatred be constrained by talks of peace. Hopefully, all the really crazy militants on both sides will blow themselves up, and leave the rest of us alone."
Both sides were quick to act to this new development. Israeli troops swept through and occupied most of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, including Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's headquarters in the city of Ramallah, while Palestinian militants were seen busily handing out bombs and explosive belts to their recruits.
There was no official comment from the White House, which has tried to broker a last-minute peace deal between the two parties. But highly placed sources, who declined to be named, said that President George Bush's immediate reaction had been "that's so crazy, it just might work!" -
George bush (in the joke at least) might not have been too far off. There are some political theories that suggest that war is indeed a conflict resolution - albeit the most extreme one. If people (civilisations) cannot get along with each other, each having such unbridgable differences, then one of the ways is through a good 'ol slug fest and may the winner prevail.
When one examines history in the light of this theory, one sees it does have a certain attractive persuasiveness.
1) WW2 - The west could sit down and let Hitler run rampage; throw all the jews out etc but they stood firm - hence there was an unbridgable non-negotiable starting point - and as we know now, all manner of appeasement and negotiation failed with the great mustached one, and a total war resulted, in the utter destruction of one manner of civilisation and ideal (Nazism and national socialism) and replaced with democracy.
I doubt that our problems with malaysia will come to such civilisation ending consequences.
However, the possibility of the west (ie the loosely termed 'christian anglo saxon') having a final civilisational war with islam is very possible and real - and if there is one war to be afraid of, then that is the one.
Only in that scenario would S'pore go to a civilisational war with malaysia, a zero sum game of total annhilation and total war.
But i sincerely doubt so over land reclamation -
but usually before the BIG one.... there are always the Smaller regional ones... to gain advantages positions.... in preparation for the BIG one....Originally posted by No Frill:George bush (in the joke at least) might not have been too far off. There are some political theories that suggest that war is indeed a conflict resolution - albeit the most extreme one. If people (civilisations) cannot get along with each other, each having such unbridgable differences, then one of the ways is through a good 'ol slug fest and may the winner prevail.
When one examines history in the light of this theory, one sees it does have a certain attractive persuasiveness.
1) WW2 - The west could sit down and let Hitler run rampage; throw all the jews out etc but they stood firm - hence there was an unbridgable non-negotiable starting point - and as we know now, all manner of appeasement and negotiation failed with the great mustached one, and a total war resulted, in the utter destruction of one manner of civilisation and ideal (Nazism and national socialism) and replaced with democracy.
I doubt that our problems with malaysia will come to such civilisation ending consequences.
However, the possibility of the west (ie the loosely termed 'christian anglo saxon') having a final civilisational war with islam is very possible and real - and if there is one war to be afraid of, then that is the one.
Only in that scenario would S'pore go to a civilisational war with malaysia, a zero sum game of total annhilation and total war.
But i sincerely doubt so over land reclamation
So.... who can say... if a war between singapore and malaysia might not be one of those smaller ones to gain advantages position.... using land reclamation as an excuse ... so as not to trigger a major one too soon.... -
If u bank everything on history than US would belonged to the red indians,australia to the aboriginals,singapore to malaysia etc etc...Originally posted by mfscrewu:I agree totally with your point. The palestine have only themselves to blame for this. Had Arafat argeed to rein in the militants, this would not have happen.
One interesting thought, what would happen if Israel should pull out totally of palestine? History has shown that the arabs will not tolerate the state of Israel in middle east. My opinion is that should Israel pull out of palestine, the arabs will next press on to drive them out middle east. Does anyone have a different opinion?
From what I know, the Jews have been in that land since 3000 BC and they were driven from there and the palestine came in the 7 AD. So, in that case, the Jews should have rights to that land.
Does anyone knows the ancient detail of the Israel/palestine conflict? Appreciate it if you could share. -
If they (the suicide bombers/snipers) have the capabilities to match the IDF, they would not have restort the targeting of civilians.Btw, we all noe tt national service is compulsory for all isrealis, dosen't tt makes all the "civilians" part of the IDF tt robbed their land n humilated them for the last 40yrs?Originally posted by Shotgun:The land they occupy, they are using as bases to launch SUICIDE bombers into Israel. Acts that TARGET civilians primarily. Does the international community condemn this? Yes, but yet why are many still shielding the Palestinians? The Palestinians are not as poorly armed as u state them to be, mr. offensivenick. The IDF managed to sieze one massive shipment of arms, finding them to contain katushya rockets, as well as other heavy weapons. Poorly armed? I think not, Palestinian terrorist groups just like parading their AK-47s, then showing them getting brutally wounded.
Freedom fighters my foot. If u call people who targets children, and unarmed civilians freedom fighters, then you bring great shame to real freedom fighters like Ghandi. Freedom fighters are heroes, not cowardly people who murder children. If Robin Hood existed, he would have been the example of freedom fighters. Not these crazed men who strap explosives to their backs.
In anycase, why should the Palestinians be fighting for freedom at all? The land was never theirs, their land was the various province of southern Syria. Unfortunately, they were kicked out of their land, and none of the arab nations would take them in.
"Return all the territories conquered in the 1967 war in exchange for normalization of ties?" Bloody bullshit if you ask me. Surrendering regions like the Golan Heights is like surrendering crucial and advantageous ground. Why should any country surrender any amount of land that was captured in a defensive war? Literally mobbed by her arab neighbours, yet she survives and pushes the invaders back to where they came from and beyond is no easy feat. Consider the land reparations if u may.
According to the Resolution 242 (1967)
of 22 November 1967, quote, "(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;" The resolution called for return of territories and not return of ALL territories. That Israel has already met. Now why should any of the Arab countries insist on getting the remaining land back just to "normalize" ties? Sounds like bloody blackmail to me. Israel should not return the occupied territories as a warning to everybody around the world, YOU don't start wars without consequences.
What would u do if u r raised in a refugee camp in what used to b ur land,see ur people humiliated everyday by the ones tt robbed u of all ur rights,witness the killings of ur famaliy members in what they call "security measures",bombardments becomes part of everyday life........
I would not hestitate to sacrifice my life in order to inflict maximium damage on the invaders that cause me n my ppl all this misery.
Resistance fighters or terrorists. It dosen't matter. What matters is they did their part to stand up to the seemingly invincible invaders of their land. -
Suicide bombers are nothing but murderers. I am sorry that I have to say that but that's the truth. If the so called "freedom" fighters attack a military installation during fighting, that's legitimate. It is absolutely wrong to kill civilians while they are just sitting in a cafe enjoying a meal.
Your notion of every israelis is a legitimate military target is absolutely wrong. Have it ever occurred to you that some of the victims are new immigrants and some of them have not even served their national service? How would the world react if Israel start to classify every palestine as terrorist?
Humiliation...maybe. But maybe you should examine the real cause of this instead of blaming everything on the israelis? If the palestine have every right to their country, why is it that the arabs does not want the state of israel to exist at all. It was the reluctance of the arab world to make peace with Israel that causes all these.
Just as you said that these militant palestine stood up against invaders. Israeli soldiers are doing their job of protecting their home from being bombed by these brain washed murderers.
How would you like it, if soldiers go into a cafe in palestine and packed loads of C4 and then set it off while people are inside and then proclaimed that it is done in the name of protecting their homeland? -
Ur "some" of the victims r new immigrants definately account for much less than the hundreds if not thousands of palestinians CIVILIANS killed by isrealis' missiles,tanks n soldiers in these recent yrs...Originally posted by mfscrewu:Suicide bombers are nothing but murderers. I am sorry that I have to say that but that's the truth. If the so called "freedom" fighters attack a military installation during fighting, that's legitimate. It is absolutely wrong to kill civilians while they are just sitting in a cafe enjoying a meal.
Your notion of every israelis is a legitimate military target is absolutely wrong. Have it ever occurred to you that some of the victims are new immigrants and some of them have not even served their national service? How would the world react if Israel start to classify every palestine as terrorist?
Humiliation...maybe. But maybe you should examine the real cause of this instead of blaming everything on the israelis? If the palestine have every right to their country, why is it that the arabs does not want the state of israel to exist at all. It was the reluctance of the arab world to make peace with Israel that causes all these.
Just as you said that these militant palestine stood up against invaders. Israeli soldiers are doing their job of protecting their home from being bombed by these brain washed murderers.
How would you like it, if soldiers go into a cafe in palestine and packed loads of C4 and then set it off while people are inside and then proclaimed that it is done in the name of protecting their homeland?
Its a tic for tac, although the palestinians r at the losing end...Given this senerio, if the we r being invaded by x country, they move their ppl here n set up homes in our land. Would u blow up any x ppl u see n force them back? Dunno abt u but I would.... -
Have the Israeli deliberately targetted civilians? If the terrorists from Al Aqsa, Hamas and Islamnic Jihad insist of hiding amongst the population and carrying out their planning, bombmaking and hiding among the population of West Bank and Gaza, then there WILL be civilian casualties when the Israeli strike back. They are the unfortunate victims of war. Like it or not nobody has yet invented a weapon that can discriminate between civilians and soldiers.Originally posted by RAIDER:[QUOTE]Originally posted by mfscrewu:
Ur "some" of the victims r new immigrants definately account for much less than the hundreds if not thousands of palestinians CIVILIANS killed by isrealis' missiles,tanks n soldiers in these recent yrs...
Its a tic for tac, although the palestinians r at the losing end...Given this senerio, if the we r being invaded by x country, they move their ppl here n set up homes in our land. Would u blow up any x ppl u see n force them back? Dunno abt u but I would....
On the other hand, the terrorists are DELIBERATELY striking civilians they deserve nothing but contempt. And anyone who says they would do they same deserves that same contempt.
Therein lies the difference. Palestinian civilians were killed ACCIDENTALLY by Israeli attacks while Israeli civilians are killed DELIBERATELY by the Palestinian attacks. No comparisons there. -
both sides r targeting civilians...
but then again, most israelis r soldier...
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to live is evil...=) -
By using you line of reasoning, wouldn't that make it justifiable for the Israelis to hunt down and imprison or kill every Palestinian child, sterilise every Palestinian woman, and castrate every Palestinian man since every Palestinian child born is a potential Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Al Aqsa suicide bomber?Originally posted by RAIDER:Btw, we all noe tt national service is compulsory for all isrealis, dosen't tt makes all the "civilians" part of the IDF tt robbed their land n humilated them for the last 40yrs?
Why isn't it done? Because it is morally repugnant to fail to see the distinction between military and civilian targets and kill civilianS DELIBERATELY and kill kid because they are your potential enemy. It is morally repugnant to DELIBERATELY walk into a cafe strapped with explosives, to blow yourself up together with women and children.
BTW, no one robbed them of their land. Look at the military balance at the start of each war in the MidEast, 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973. Each time the Israeli were outnumbered by the Arab armies who started the wars. The Israelis took the land fair and square from the Arabs who attacked them first.
I've said this before and will say this again. Don't start what you can't finish.
Their behaviour is like the playground bully who runs crying to his parents when his victims fight back.
[This message has been edited by Viper52 (edited 02 May 2002).] -
Yes in a way,as they dun give a shit abt the hundreds of civilians around their "suspected terrorists" tt they r going to bomb.Fact is there r much more palestian civillians killed than the "terrorists" they r targeting.Originally posted by Viper52:Have the Israeli deliberately targetted civilians? If the terrorists from Al Aqsa, Hamas and Islamnic Jihad insist of hiding amongst the population and carrying out their planning, bombmaking and hiding among the population of West Bank and Gaza, then there WILL be civilian casualties when the Israeli strike back. They are the unfortunate victims of war. Like it or not nobody has yet invented a weapon that can discriminate between civilians and soldiers.
On the other hand, the terrorists are DELIBERATELY striking civilians they deserve nothing but contempt. And anyone who says they would do they same deserves that same contempt.
Therein lies the difference. Palestinian civilians were killed ACCIDENTALLY by Israeli attacks while Israeli civilians are killed DELIBERATELY by the Palestinian attacks. No comparisons there.
Which idiot would u stand out in the open against the awesome arsenal of ihe IDF? That would b suicide.
U dun call it an ACCIDENT when u deliberately bomb a building full of CIVILIANS just to weed out ur "target".U dun call it an ACCIDENT when u force CIVILIANS as "pointman" to go into suspectedly booby trapped buildings n u definitely won't call it an ACCIDENT planting car bombs in crowed streets n markets to annihilate a few suspected affiliates of the hamas...
Look up the stats urself. Palestinians CIVILIANS(EXCLUDING "terrorists") die by the thousands in the past 2yrs n Isrealis casualities(INCLUDING soldiers) numbered not more than 300.
Seems to me u dun give a damm abt the grossly unacceptable figures n how the palestians civilians die... -
IDF=Isreali Defense Force?
I think IOF(Isreali Oppress Force)would suit them more!