PAP shamelessly accept bribe infront of the public?
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Article from Asiaone.com
Singapore's style of government delivers the goods
In the Review article, 'Singapore changing for the better' (ST, Jan 25), Liu Long Chang writes: 'Singapore has a powerful ruling party. It practises a form of democratic autocracy that accommodates popular will to vigorously implement its policies and get effective results.' He mentions this in light of the various challenges that Singapore had experienced and the Government's ability to effectively deal with them.
Detractors of 'democratic autocracy' regard it as a form of pseudo-democracy. This implies that the ideals of democracy - namely, the promotion of civil and political liberties, limited government, free and fair competitive elections - are not implemented by the regime even though it claims to be democratic. While the aforementioned ideals are characteristics of liberal democracies, let us remind ourselves that liberal democracy is just another form of democracy.
That means democracy is an essentially contested concept, one that is subjected to personal interpretation. The Singapore Government, according to the article, believes in an autocratic form of democracy which is deemed necessary to stave off challenges that threatened to destabilise the status quo.
Such a perspective would make Thomas Hobbes proud. According to Hobbes (1651), absolutist government is the only alternative to anarchy and disorder and that citizens have an unqualified obligation to the state. To limit the power of government is to risk a descent into 'a state of nature'. Such arguments can be found in his book, Leviathan (1651).
Given that Singapore is such a small country with big neighbours and limited resources, then perhaps the existence of a Leviathan-type government is more beneficial than a liberal democracy. Politics requires one to be practical. Idealism serves no purpose if it does not yield effective results. I maintain the argument that Singapore's form of democracy serves to establish an efficient and effective government that is able to deliver the goods. Rather than aspiring for limited government, let's think about its feasibility in terms of efficiency, especially so in contingent times.
Perhaps we could benefit from Plato's wisdom when it comes to democracy. Plato used the analogy of the ship (Republic, 488 AD) to describe the inefficiency of democracy - everybody on board wants to take control of the ship, regardless of whether they are competent.
In this state of affairs, Plato argued that only a carefully designed rule by highly educated experts would be equal to the task - a rule based on a carefully designed dictatorship of reason.
Reza Shifdar Buang -
Democracy passes into despotism-Plato
Are we not at the stage of despotism?
Despotism means a person, especially a ruler, who has unlimited power over other people, and often uses it unfairly. -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
Yes wisdom. Plato mentioned about wisdom
Article from Asiaone.com
[b]Singapore's style of government delivers the goods
Perhaps we could benefit from Plato's wisdom when it comes to democracy. Plato used the analogy of the ship (Republic, 488 AD) to describe the inefficiency of democracy - everybody on board wants to take control of the ship, regardless of whether they are competent.
In this state of affairs, Plato argued that only a carefully designed rule by highly educated experts would be equal to the task - a rule based on a carefully designed dictatorship of reason.
Reza Shifdar Buang [/b]
Perfect wisdom has four parts, viz., wisdom, the principle of doing things aright; justice, the principle of doing things equally in public and private; fortitude, the principle of not flying danger, but meeting it; and temperance, the principle of subduing desires and living moderately.
Do you think those so called highly educated today have those wisdom? -
No need to complain so much 1. The sgforums is always filled with complaints against the government 1, but for the past few years, the PAP always managed to continue to stay in the parliament. I hope every single 1 of us can bring out our guts & vote for the opposition especially the Workers Party during the next general elections. SDP is definitely out for me. I think it is time to kick the ruling party out of the government, if not reduce their percentage.
I really hope to see the outcome of the next GE entirely different.
The Pay And Pay has been continuously sucking the people's money, pls every single Singaporean send a clear message to them that "Sorry it is time for u to go. Adieu, & we will not miss you." -
Hi,
What I meant by saying it's going to affect everybody including school teachers and police sargeants, and it being impossible to adjust only the top....is because of the principle of remuneration.
Everything is pegged according to responsibility and position, and also relative to other people's salary in that structure. I forgot the formal term for this principle.
If only the top salary is lowered without the rest following....like only those of the president, PM, Ministers, MPs, without lowering the salary of school teachers and police sargeants.....well......I guess it can be done, but it will jeopardize the entire system idea. The attractiveness to become top leaders and to remain there is lessened.
In private sector, the CEO and directors can earn even more glaringly wider salary gap, compared to other employees.
Why...???
Let's say the salaries of the CEO, directors, members of the board, are lowered....without lowering those of other employees such as clerks etc.
Then......what happen? For a while maybe it's ok, but if it is long time, then those top people will eventually leave. Then the management will change into worse.....then the whole company is worse off.....
There is no difference between a company, a school, a hospital, an association, a hobby club, or a government, whatever the institution. It all depends on the management, who are the people running it. Once lousy people are running something, then it become lousy as well.
If the salary of employees like clerks are not lowered, things will still go bad, because clerks don't really have much say in the running of the bigger scheme of things. Same principle here, everywhere, not just in government. The top people have disproportionate pay because they have disproportionate importance.
This is just a basic or foundation idea and it's right to implement this idea in government/ politics, in my opinion.
Meat Pao. -
I find the AsiaOne article interesting.
For some time, I have been wondering myself too about the Singapore model.
I like their term 'autocratic democracy' or 'democratic autocracy' although I think it is an oxymoron and feel forced. But anyway, I cannot come up with a better term myself.
This may be another topic by the way, not sure if we should discuss it here in this thread...
Meat Pao. -
even more outrageous is the fact that they seem to think of themselves as 'civil servants'. which they are sooo NOT.Originally posted by Dounut:I don't understand this:
If Durai's $600 Thousand salary package is not acceptable in the "Charity" Sector, why is our minister salary package of $1 Million +++ acceptable as a "Civil" Sector ? ?
Isn't it outrightous ? ? -
In private sector you can increase profit, but you have to do it without incurring the wrath of the people. If they see you increase price without rhyme or reason atmost they use another service or product.
In Singapore public sector, they increase their reserves, incur the wrath of the people but what can those people do? You think move to another country so easy meh? If change government also must wait 5 years, by then they introduce sweet sweet policies to make the people forget again... -
Wow.... you prefer like Indonenasia ,China , India ,Philippine..... every Minister get low pay to ''please'' people like you, but behind our back, the whole family is on the take...... police also the same. How many S'porean complaint kena booked for nothing by Malaysia traffic police asking for $$$. Yet how often we hear story of S'pore traffic police doing the same..Originally posted by (human):Look at thier sky high pay, even US president is not thier match. What kind of big deeds have they done to receive such a huge amount? Don't the excuse given by LKY sound very absurb? Those who shamelessly accept the pay are not worthy to represent Singapore or fit to be in the paliament. Those who seek power are not worthy of that power.
No use if civil servant take low pay but do no work......... i rather they work and get good pay. No one ever ask me for extre $$$ to get a form fill up, or that my Passport will not be ready unless i give extre. For this and more, i willing them to get good pay
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Yes good pay. Good pay doesn't mean stretching salaries leaving a huge gap as god like. Good pay comes with worth, do you think the work they have done is worth that much? Please do not compare with private's CEO, we are talking about government bodies representing people of Singapore here.Originally posted by hloc:Wow.... you prefer like Indonenasia ,China , India ,Philippine..... every Minister get low pay to ''please'' people like you, but behind our back, the whole family is on the take...... police also the same. How many S'porean complaint kena booked for nothing by Malaysia traffic police asking for $$$. Yet how often we hear story of S'pore traffic police doing the same..
No use if civil servant take low pay but do no work......... i rather they work and get good pay. No one ever ask me for extre $$$ to get a form fill up, or that my Passport will not be ready unless i give extre. For this and more, i willing them to get good pay
If TT Durai marked his salary to 600k, don't you think the ministers are worst than him? -
There is no 'principle of renumeration' that dictates that pay cuts should be consistent across the board. It makes no sense to deliberately reduce the wages of lower level staff by bundling the same percentage reduction to that of the senior management level, as the senior management should take greater responsibility if the company is in the black.Originally posted by Meat Pao:Hi,
What I meant by saying it's going to affect everybody including school teachers and police sargeants, and it being impossible to adjust only the top....is because of the principle of remuneration.
Everything is pegged according to responsibility and position, and also relative to other people's salary in that structure. I forgot the formal term for this principle.
If only the top salary is lowered without the rest following....like only those of the president, PM, Ministers, MPs, without lowering the salary of school teachers and police sargeants.....well......I guess it can be done, but it will jeopardize the entire system idea. The attractiveness to become top leaders and to remain there is lessened.
In private sector, the CEO and directors can earn even more glaringly wider salary gap, compared to other employees.
Why...???
Let's say the salaries of the CEO, directors, members of the board, are lowered....without lowering those of other employees such as clerks etc.
Then......what happen? For a while maybe it's ok, but if it is long time, then those top people will eventually leave. Then the management will change into worse.....then the whole company is worse off.....
There is no difference between a company, a school, a hospital, an association, a hobby club, or a government, whatever the institution. It all depends on the management, who are the people running it. Once lousy people are running something, then it become lousy as well.
If the salary of employees like clerks are not lowered, things will still go bad, because clerks don't really have much say in the running of the bigger scheme of things. Same principle here, everywhere, not just in government. The top people have disproportionate pay because they have disproportionate importance.
This is just a basic or foundation idea and it's right to implement this idea in government/ politics, in my opinion.
Meat Pao.
How will that jeopardize the 'system'? The attraction to serve should be the overiding principle, not the attraction of very high wages bordering on exhoribitant.
You seem to forget that these super-scale earners are being paid with taxpayers' monies- our monies, and they are adamently refusing to disclose the formula by which they 'calculate' they pay. Herein lies the difference between the govt sector and the private industries - open competition and the drive to meet operating profits determine how much pay and bonuses a CEO or director is given.
Govt institutions on the other hand, do not have profit-driven indicators to demonstrate why certain people deserve the wages and bonues they are receiving. It is all too convenient that our ministers peg their pay to those of TOP SALARIED staff working in MNCs, claiming that is what they would have earned had they turned down the chance to 'serve', the opportunity cost if you will.
Given how certain minstries are being run, i'm not sure whether they would indeed be able to earn equivalent salaries compared to what they currently take home had they dived into the private sector.
For private sector companies, to survive, one must embrace change; the company culture must embrace it. With the changing face of consumers and the impact of globalisation, any organisation that does not effect change as a norm will surely lose out to far more competitive companies. Thus i cannot understand why your mindset believes a change in management is BAD for a company. Wage costs are perhaps the biggests overheads of any private company, and wage caps are always in place to stem the flow.
If managers feel they are not being paid sufficiently, it is only natural that they leave for better opportunities in the market. This frees up promotion vacancies for promising stalwarts or protégés who could even do the job better.
The pull and push factor of the job market is a fundamental concept of any industry. It is what drives the private sector to provide suitable renumeration packages for their employees, under threat of losing their best talents if they fail on this account.
Can the same be said of underachieving ministers or senior civil servants? Do they deserve their pay if they are not producing and is there a neutral board of directors that reserves the right to dismiss them for failing specific targets? -
Singapore's ministers are one of the highest paid in the world.Originally posted by hloc:Wow.... you prefer like Indonenasia ,China , India ,Philippine..... every Minister get low pay to ''please'' people like you, but behind our back, the whole family is on the take...... police also the same. How many S'porean complaint kena booked for nothing by Malaysia traffic police asking for $$$. Yet how often we hear story of S'pore traffic police doing the same..
No use if civil servant take low pay but do no work......... i rather they work and get good pay. No one ever ask me for extre $$$ to get a form fill up, or that my Passport will not be ready unless i give extre. For this and more, i willing them to get good pay
but do they deserve it? Are they doing as well as, or even better than the other ministers in other countries? not forgetting singapore is a small country, other country's ministers have to deal with isues across a large piece of land.
You cited the example of the police force. I believe the singapore police force is paid a decent amount and thus i wont call that "good pay". However most(i hope) understand their responsibilities as policemen and wont do stuff like collect extra cash from people.
What we want are ministers who are passionate to serve the country. Ministers who put country above self and will carry out their duties with dignity without the need of "bribes", regardless of whether its daylight bribery or having to use underhand methods.
If the current ministers are unable to fit into this criteria, please step down. I'm sure there're many singaporeans who will be able to fit in and take over their place. -
Yes good pay. Good pay doesn't mean stretching salaries leaving a huge gap as god like. Good pay comes with worth, do you think the work they have done is worth that much? Please do not compare with CEO, we are talking about government bodies representing people of Singapore here.
You misunderstood..... I'm not comparing them to CEO.... only to other Minister from surrounding countries. Whatever angry or unhappyness u have, would you want to trade-in your S'pore Passport for that of Indoneasia, China... etc. All of us won't mind the trade-in if we are going there as ''Rich'' man/woman...... but do you want to go over as a avg Joe
If TT Durai marked his salary to 600k, don't you think the ministers are worst than him? . How many people have to leave such countries to work because of lack of jobs back home ?? I believe ur Mom, Sister, Wife have no need to work as 'Maid' in another country, Right ??
Ur complaint is about Minister in S'pore having higher pay then those from other Countries...... And I say that as long as I have work (Job).... a roof over my head (I own a 4Room HDB).... No civil servant trying to get extra $$$ from me to get work done.... And me & family is living in safetly for crooks...... I have no complaint about Minister's pay....... -
Do you know people in tomasick...how much are the powerful man and woman's next-of-kin and relatives are paid?.....dividends, perks, entertaiment, loyalty shares, bonuses, salaries and ect.Originally posted by hloc:Wow.... you prefer like Indonenasia ,China , India ,Philippine..... every Minister get low pay to ''please'' people like you, but behind our back, the whole family is on the take...... police also the same. How many S'porean complaint kena booked for nothing by Malaysia traffic police asking for $$$. Yet how often we hear story of S'pore traffic police doing the same..
No use if civil servant take low pay but do no work......... i rather they work and get good pay. No one ever ask me for extre $$$ to get a form fill up, or that my Passport will not be ready unless i give extre. For this and more, i willing them to get good pay
If LHL would allow me to run tomasick...I could guarantee minimum 50% return of net profits annually. No Gimmick!!!
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1st off...... I'm no die-hard PAP supporter.... I don't really care for polictic. Since the beginnig of time, there haven't been a goverment that is ''like'' by all its people........
Singapore's ministers are one of the highest paid in the world.
Compare with all our surrounding neigbours, is your life really sooo bad
but do they deserve it? Are they doing as well as, or even better than the other ministers in other countries? not forgetting singapore is a small country, other country's ministers have to deal with isues across a large piece of land. U should compare ur lifestyle with theirs..... If you rich, compare with the rich. If mid-income.... compare with mid-income. S'pore is small and in theory, easier to govern..... but we also don't have Land, Gas, Oil or Timber..... now even no Sand...... We are easy to govern, but hard to make a living from........ Since most of us DO have work, can AFFORD to buy a PC to surf the Net and BIT*H about the Minister's pay...... we already much better than some young girl selling herself in Batam...... At least the girls here sell their bodies to buy Branded Goods..... so sad.... 
You cited the example of the police force. I believe the singapore police force is paid a decent amount and thus i wont call that "good pay". However most(i hope) understand their responsibilities as policemen and wont do stuff like collect extra cash from people.
The Chinese have a saying...... I try to translate - The top column not set straight, bottom column will be crocket. If our Minister is not more or less upright....... how would the police chief and policeman not be taking bribes... look at the Thai generals..... giving themselves a pay rise after the coup.What we want are ministers who are passionate to serve the country.
This I agree...... if you want the job, better be sure you will do a good job. To those who only wants to ''make a living''..... please F off. But over all, I'm happy with my life here...... Please lah..... prices goes up where ever you go. In Aust, NZ, USA or other countries..... u think there are on poor people there
Ministers who put country above self and will carry out their duties with dignity without the need of "bribes", regardless of whether its daylight bribery or having to use underhand methods. If the current ministers are unable to fit into this criteria, please step down. I'm sure there're many singaporeans who will be able to fit in and take over their place. To those who have a Axe to gride with the PAP..... ask yourself please - What Have You Given Back To S'pore ..... Bit*hing no count.... -
That does not mean our ministers should be uniquely over paid. Have they shown that they are uniquely wise or uniquely foolish in term of performance compare to the governments in the world? If you paid yourself the highest, be prepare to be compared to the best. If you are paying youself to the extreme, be prepare to be compared to the extreme.Originally posted by hloc:You misunderstood..... I'm not comparing them to CEO.... only to other Minister from surrounding countries. Whatever angry or unhappyness u have, would you want to trade-in your S'pore Passport for that of Indoneasia, China... etc. All of us won't mind the trade-in if we are going there as ''Rich'' man/woman...... but do you want to go over as a avg Joe . How many people have to leave such countries to work because of lack of jobs back home ?? I believe ur Mom, Sister, Wife have no need to work as 'Maid' in another country, Right ?? -
Originally posted by hloc:
People like you will be happy even if whacked by a 190% GST...
This I agree...... if you want the job, better be sure you will do a good job. To those who only wants to ''make a living''..... please F off. But over all, I'm happy with my life here...... Please lah..... prices goes up where ever you go. In Aust, NZ, USA or other countries..... u think there are on poor people there To those who have a Axe to gride with the PAP..... ask yourself please - What Have You Given Back To S'pore ..... Bit*hing no count....[/b]
Have you ever questioned the need for a privatised public transport system when I've seen no visible improvement in services. Not to mention the numerous other 'privatised' government companies...
To you who have nothing to grind with the PAP, ask yourself this, do you, can you accept their reasoning behind the policies?
If they cannot convince me, I don't see how you telling us to fark off can further convince me. -
privatised is just an excuse for ruling party in profits steering and more gain for themselves.Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:People like you will be happy even if whacked by a 190% GST...
Have you ever questioned the need for a privatised public transport system when I've seen no visible improvement in services. Not to mention the numerous other 'privatised' government companies...
To you who have nothing to grind with the PAP, ask yourself this, do you, can you accept their reasoning behind the policies?
If they cannot convince me, I don't see how you telling us to fark off can further convince me.
Soon zhe wo chang, Biak zhe wo wang. -
That does not mean our ministers should be uniquely over paid. Have they shown that they are uniquely wise or uniquely foolish in term of performance compare to the governments in the world? If you paid yourself the highest, be prepare to be compared to the best. If you are paying youself to the extreme, be prepare to be compared to the extreme.
During the 97 Asian Financial Crisis when most of the other asian countries were in deep sh*t, only S'pore could lend $9B to thailand in the hope of stopping the baht from dropping...... I admit that the plan failed...... But it is well known that S'pore suffer the less during the Crisis. That itself prove that we were in good hands....... Yes, we expect the highest of performance from the govt..... it is our right..... it is also your right to question Minister's pay, as it is my right to feel that i like their performance. Lets be honest.... most of us will never be happy no matter what pay the Ministers take home.... just because we are S'porean and can't stand the idea of other people taking more pay then us........People like you will be happy even if whacked by a 190% GST...
Num 1..... I'm asking that, Minister who just want to make a living..... F Off, not you or others. My grammer no good..... feel free to sue MOE for me. 2nd, are you the only person that never makes a mistake ?? I not trying to defend PAP from their wrong policies...... but is PAP the only govt that make mistake
Have you ever questioned the need for a privatised public transport system when I've seen no visible improvement in services. Not to mention the numerous other 'privatised' government companies... To you who have nothing to grind with the PAP, ask yourself this, do you, can you accept their reasoning behind the policies? If they cannot convince me, I don't see how you telling us to fark off can further convince me. If the Rise of GST from 5% to 7% really bring help to the poor in the form of workfare.... I say go ahead I'll never know if one day I will also need to claim workfare. I'm not trying to convince you of anything...... It is your right to compliant as it is my right to point out....... My point of view is that as long as most.. impossible to be all.. of S'poreans have work, food & roof, then I will still be happy. Ooh... if GST goes up to 190%..... they better give me welfare instead of workfare. -
When you have faults, do not fear to abandon them-confucius
If they are heading on moderate path, we people have no reason to make noise. If they are showing you the extreme way in doing thing it's our part to point that out and thier part to correct it. -
At last..... something we can agree on. But I also believe that very little govt around the world will admit that they are wrong...Originally posted by (human):When you have faults, do not fear to abandon them-confucius
If they are heading on moderate path, we people have no reason to make noise. If they are showing you the extreme way in doing thing it's our part to point that out and thier part to correct it. -
The first step towards amendment is the recognition of error.Originally posted by hloc:At last..... something we can agree on. But I also believe that very little govt around the world will admit that they are wrong... -
The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal.Originally posted by OO_OO_OO:Singapore's ministers are one of the highest paid in the world.
but do they deserve it? Are they doing as well as, or even better than the other ministers in other countries? not forgetting singapore is a small country, other country's ministers have to deal with isues across a large piece of land. -
If they can't convince the people their work is worth that much. Shouldn't they correct it to the level like American? Or they want to be regard as thieves who are robbing the citizens?
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They are not even trying to convince us... I don't think it even crossed their mind to convince us... they just say it needs to be pegged.Originally posted by (human):If they can't convince the people their work is worth that much. Shouldn't they correct it to the level like American? Or they want to be regard as thieves who are robbing the citizens?