Fundamentally wrong assumptions of govt about their salaries
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normalsing wrote:
How much were the salaries of civil servants working in Singapore Post, Mediacorp, Singapore Power, PSA etc before these services were corporatized into Pte Ltd GLCs.
I have to disagree with your notion that this income disparity is a result of the high salaries for the public sector as compared to the private sector. It will be helpful if you can point to some information to substantiate the point.
From what I can see based on the median or average salaries posted by various headhunting firms, the salaries of the general civil servants in Singapores are usually close to the market rate. In some cases like Auditing and accounting, the salary may even be slightly lower than the market rate. Of course, you can say that the work in civil service is easier. But that is besides the point. The point is that the average pay in civil service (for the general population) does not drive this income gap.
I remember that at the earlier times, in the early 1970s Singapore Post, Mediacorp and Singapore Power and PSA etc were providing efficient services without the constant need to keep raising fees because their managers at that time were paid between S$3,000.00 pm and S$6,000.00 pm.
After corporatisation into Pte Ltd GLCs many of these government departments were upgraded with managers (without change with public advertisement) becoming CEOs and salaries jumping to S$10,000.00-S$20,000.00 pm while the services remain the same.
No wonder GLCs have to keep raising fees every two to three years to pay for their highly inflated bill collector positions.
No wonder Mediacorp/Mediawork sustained heavy losses by the hundreds of millions because these sinicure positions which do not need any entrepreneurial skills except to service the ministers are now eating into the company profits.
Similarly SBS and PSA which previously did not have GM/CEO have had to upgrade managers into high-flyer names each paid the inflated million-dollar salaries - perhaps so as to justify ministers' own increments and salary inflation.
Durai would not be wrong in thinking that he should be paid likewise. In a way, he was not totally wrong in pushing for his own rewards to keep up with what is happening in GLCs and the public sector's method of self-rewards.
SBS therefore has to keep raising their fares at the expense of the public commuters and tax payers because of such self-reward schemes instituted through corporatization under the Goh Keng Swee doctrine - push up salaries to upgrade the economy to value-adding model.
Major mistakes have been made by our political leaders in assuming that Singapore public sector was underpaid not knowing that by the 1980s, public sector sinecure managers who do not worry about profits or where the funds are coming from were paid three times that of equivalent positions in the private sector.
A Car Park division director was paid more than S$10,000.00 pm when private car park operator could only pay their equivalent manager only S$5,000.00 pm at the most.
So if you want proof, we do have plenty. Look at teacher's pay of S$8,000 pm as compared with adjunct teacher (relief) of S$100 per day.
The whole salary scheme for public sector has been screwed up on some wrong assumptions of the past and yet our leaders do not want to admit such fundamental errors of government. -
public services run by corporates?
well, that's what we will get...
but people must also remember one thing: politicians are NOT civil servants..
besides, politicians here have pegged their wages against people like Bill Gates and other CEOs... and the civil service gets the flak for it...
it's time people figure things out and learn that they are not the same things.. -
The problem is..what can we do about it??Originally posted by the Bear:public services run by corporates?
well, that's what we will get...
but people must also remember one thing: politicians are NOT civil servants..
besides, politicians here have pegged their wages against people like Bill Gates and other CEOs... and the civil service gets the flak for it...
it's time people figure things out and learn that they are not the same things.. -
let the 66.6% become heck of a lot less...Originally posted by Mid9Sun:The problem is..what can we do about it??
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Can only bare with the current situation and wait till 2011. Hopefully we have less idiots in the electorate.Originally posted by Mid9Sun:The problem is..what can we do about it?? -
Hopefully singaporeans won't suffer from memory loss when the government offers another package? New generation progress package anyone?
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Hahaha.....money illusion.Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:Hopefully singaporeans won't suffer from memory loss when the government offers another package? New generation progress package anyone? -
I hope i am dead by 2011...no eye seeOriginally posted by maurizio13:Can only bare with the current situation and wait till 2011. Hopefully we have less idiots in the electorate. -
Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error.
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the people?
slowly slowly... 66.6% vs 75.8% is a huge drop
if you are talking about the powers, it's no error on their partOriginally posted by (human):Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error. -
If a man fools you once, he's a jerk. If he fools you twice, you're a jerk.
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SingPost just released the result, earned almost 35million $ in last quater, profit up 4%, Still raised the postage;
SMRT released the result last week, earned almost 50Million $ in last quater, profit up 35%, Still raised the fare;
Originally posted by robertteh:How much were the salaries of civil servants working in Singapore Post, Mediacorp, Singapore Power, PSA etc before these services were corporatized into Pte Ltd GLCs.
I remember that at the earlier times, in the early 1970s Singapore Post, Mediacorp and Singapore Power and PSA etc were providing efficient services without the constant need to keep raising fees because their managers at that time were paid between S$3,000.00 pm and S$6,000.00 pm.
After corporatisation into Pte Ltd GLCs many of these government departments were upgraded with managers (without change with public advertisement) becoming CEOs and salaries jumping to S$10,000.00-S$20,000.00 pm while the services remain the same.
No wonder GLCs have to keep raising fees every two to three years to pay for their highly inflated bill collector positions.
No wonder Mediacorp/Mediawork sustained heavy losses by the hundreds of millions because these sinicure positions which do not need any entrepreneurial skills except to service the ministers are now eating into the company profits.
Similarly SBS and PSA which previously did not have GM/CEO have had to upgrade managers into high-flyer names each paid the inflated million-dollar salaries - perhaps so as to justify ministers' own increments and salary inflation.
Durai would not be wrong in thinking that he should be paid likewise. In a way, he was not totally wrong in pushing for his own rewards to keep up with what is happening in GLCs and the public sector's method of self-rewards.
SBS therefore has to keep raising their fares at the expense of the public commuters and tax payers because of such self-reward schemes instituted through corporatization under the Goh Keng Swee doctrine - push up salaries to upgrade the economy to value-adding model.
Major mistakes have been made by our political leaders in assuming that Singapore public sector was underpaid not knowing that by the 1980s, public sector sinecure managers who do not worry about profits or where the funds are coming from were paid three times that of equivalent positions in the private sector.
A Car Park division director was paid more than S$10,000.00 pm when private car park operator could only pay their equivalent manager only S$5,000.00 pm at the most.
So if you want proof, we do have plenty. Look at teacher's pay of S$8,000 pm as compared with adjunct teacher (relief) of S$100 per day.
The whole salary scheme for public sector has been screwed up on some wrong assumptions of the past and yet our leaders do not want to admit such fundamental errors of government. -
Precisely it is this sort of profiteering by government and its host of corporatised GLCs which has driven up the costs of living and doing business.Originally posted by play_n_play:SingPost just released the result, earned almost 35million $ in last quater, profit up 4%, Still raised the postage;
SMRT released the result last week, earned almost 50Million $ in last quater, profit up 35%, Still raised the fare;
No wonder citizens are hard pressed into financial straits of the kind witnessed today. The only sector which could do well would be the top 5% who are either working for the government, GLCs or the civil service. -
Singaporeans have been tamed by the government. People are no longer able to have their say or views on how the country should be run.
How did this happen? First - legalistic governance is complete with government run by passing of any laws the leaders want with a parliament that is totally under the control of the leaders.
Secondly the media has been brought under the total control of the government under licensing. Even people with objective and good views have been brought under control.
Even President Ong Teng Cheong was unable to do anything against a press which is able to sideline his views about guarding and proper use of reserve.
Such a country will be one which is sterile of creative solutions to problems and it will look like there is problem - the media in such a country will pretend there is no problem or there are better solutions like stability or rule of law being good when actually there are many hidden problems of the NKF kind.
In such a country there government will be able to use the media and write its own report card.
Citizens will therefore will have to fend for themselves and eventually find their own way to solve all their problems. -
well said robertteh. very true indeed.
if you need more example i can provide cases in the SAF where soldiers pay has gone up so much while their contribution i would say for most of them are not even justify half of their salary.
the rank in the SAF has lost its pride. a OC of a use to be a captain some 10 years ago. now it would like a major to do a job. like wise for a CO, segeant, WO , blah blah....
i guess most of the 2% increase in GST is use to pay for this F%*&ing civil servant high salary. -
I think the only person I respect is Ong Teng Cheong, he has a very sincere feeling.
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Robert, you mean re-nationalizing what was once state-owned entities is the way to go?
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"The cry of the poor demands a tangible and generous response from us, because development and progress cannot take place at the expense of man." John Paul II
For any commercial companies and even the not for profit ones, whats the maxim, tis but to lower cost or minimise input n optimise revenue or maximising output NOT losing the industrial or organisation objectives... whats a country's objective? R our leaders so handicapped that they cant resolve issues n cannot come up with better and alternative solutions except to raise costs in every which ways... ?
"A scholar, whose mind is set on truth, and who is ashamed of bad clothes and bad food, is not fit to be discoursed with."
"What is called a great minister is one who serves according to what is right, and when he finds he cannot do so, retires."
"When good government prevails in a state, to be thinking only of one's salary. When bad government prevails, to be thinking, in the same way, only of one's salary. That is what is shameful." Confucius
Some of such costs seem to be affected even if not intentionally through 'different layers' of different 'companies'' profits before the end users bear the blunt.
Notice the limits of the PM... with increased oppositions, he gotta waste too much time to think of ways to fix 'em (he may have retracted but he didnt do so personally... someone says what one says, what one is, no?)... to 'help' the poor he has to raise GST, inevitably, every public entities are doing just that n claim fat salaries for their 'best brains in the country' to run thus... WHERE IS THE CHALLENGE TO DO GOOD FOR THE PEOPLE WITHOUT TAXING THEM IN EVERY CONCEIVABLE WAYS...?
Measure performances, so wat have they done? have jobs created for people but no life for them to enjoy wat life should bring them... is this a country anymore? R concerns of fellow Singaporeans a joke to be dismissed, disbrowning them.
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A Freudian Slip.Originally posted by eyebuzz:For any commercial companies and even the not for profit ones, whats the maxim, tis but to lower cost or minimise input n optimise revenue or maximising output NOT losing the industrial or organisation objectives... whats a country's objective? R our leaders so handicapped that they cant resolve issues n cannot come up with better and alternative solutions except to raise costs in every which ways... ?
Some of such costs seem to be affected even if not intentionally through 'different layers' of different 'companies'' profits before the end users bear the blunt.
Notice the limits of the PM... with increased oppositions, he gotta waste too much time to think of ways to fix 'em (he may have retracted but he didnt do so personally... someone says what one says, what one is, no?)... to 'help' the poor he has to raise GST, inevitably, every public entities are doing just that n claim fat salaries for their 'best brains in the country' to run thus... WHERE IS THE CHALLENGE TO DO GOOD FOR THE PEOPLE WITHOUT TAXING THEM IN EVERY CONCEIVABLE WAYS...?
Measure performances, so wat have they done? have jobs created for people but no life for them to enjoy wat life should bring them... is this a country anymore? R concerns of fellow Singaporeans a joke to be dismissed, disbrowning them. -
Better opposition come and run for the seats in Sembawang leh....
The more I see the Hawazi and Maliki, the more buay song I am. The first one do nothing, except sit there jia liao bee; The latter tells everyone to stop whinging and go homeless by choice.
Ok, enough is enough. Better candidates for Sembawag GRC so that I don't need to choose the lesser of two evil. -
Parapraxia?Originally posted by maurizio13:A Freudian Slip. -
Yes, renationalising these GLCs or outsourcing is the way to go to now in order to restore the provisions of essential services to the citizens back to the people without all the scholars enjoying all the free-lunch self-reward at people's expense.Originally posted by Quincey:Robert, you mean re-nationalizing what was once state-owned entities is the way to go?
It is a shame that such free-lunches were being liberally spread nicely to all our scholars without proving their worth which Mah Bow Tan in increasing HDB prices and vehicle COE/ERP fees have cleverly told the people not to expect of the government. -
No teacher earns $8000 a month, not even if u serve 30 years because pay is determined by career grade. each grade has a pay ceiling that cannot be exceeded, not unless u get promoted to the next grade.
to hit $8000, u need to be at least on the senior's edu officer grade 1A1, which is at least a vice-principal or more likely a principal of some years. and even then, it does not start off at $8k. u need to work towards that salary scale. unless u a are a scholar who becomes a principal or some director at 35, most teachers/civil servants will never smell this amount of money in their career.
most civil servants work hard (12-14 hours a day) doing real jobs and are regular pple getting regular pay. they dont share in the extraordinary rewards paid at the top to those who have elite background or the inner circle. -
But do you think all the civil servant are really deserving the pay?Originally posted by Lefleche:No teacher earns $8000 a month, not even if u serve 30 years because pay is determined by career grade. each grade has a pay ceiling that cannot be exceeded, not unless u get promoted to the next grade.
to hit $8000, u need to be at least on the senior's edu officer grade 1A1, which is at least a vice-principal or more likely a principal of some years. and even then, it does not start off at $8k. u need to work towards that salary scale. unless u a are a scholar who becomes a principal or some director at 35, most teachers/civil servants will never smell this amount of money in their career.
most civil servants work hard (12-14 hours a day) doing real jobs and are regular pple getting regular pay. they dont share in the extraordinary rewards paid at the top to those who have elite background or the inner circle.
Some are empty inside and stayed on the job because of the rice bowl. That a big boo boo. -
Originally posted by Hogzilla:
sure some dont. in every industry there will be. even some in the political leadership also dont deserve the pay right?
But do you think [b]all the civil servant are really deserving the pay?
Some are empty inside and stayed on the job because of the rice bowl. That a big boo boo.[/b]
just cant tar all with the same brush lah.