Taiwan revised "CHINA related" textbook
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China's modern history is a very sad story of miscommunications, betrayals, confused national pride and bloodshed.Originally posted by Mitsubishi hater:God damn it!
Taiwan ROC deserve to be invaded by the PRC.
What do they think they are trying to do?
acting like the Japanese?
bunch of moron!
When you make this statement...
"Taiwan ROC deserve to be invaded by the PRC!"
...I know you are not well read in the history of this entanglement.
You assume there are only two political entities in this story.
Actually there is at least three - China (ROC), China (PRC) and Taiwan - excluding others such as USA or Japan.
China (ROC) was born in 1912, with Dr. Sun Yat-Sen as the provisional President. The early Republic years were tumultous and full of in-fighting, betrayals and corruption. The Republic isn't even really united until 1928 (By Generalissimo Chiang Kai-Shek) - fighting between warlords, and later with the communists sapped its power to effectively fend off Japanese invasion in 1937. The KMT were defeated on the mainland in 1949 and fled to Taiwan. Ever since then, they have dreamed an increasingly impossible dream to reunifying China under the ROC political structure.
China (PRC) was born in 1949, after the communists successfully chased the remnants of the KMT government out to Taiwan. The CPC led by Mao Zedong, considered the ROC extinct, and the PRC became the new China, centred on Beijing. The reality is that the world now considered Taipei the new capital of China, until 1971. Indeed the PRC did try to finish off the nationalists with a series of coastal attacks in the 1950s, but suffered huge losses. The PRC government wants reunification with Taiwan as a subset of the PRC political structure.
Taiwan (Republic of) is a short-lived state born in 1895. It was the first republic in East Asia and was declared by Governor Liu Ming Quan. There were two major reasons for its existence. The Taiwanese have moved to Taiwan (Formosa at that time) since the Ming Dynasty, and have enjoyed de facto self-governence for hundreds of years. Unfortunately, Japan's increasing aggression towards the Qing Dynasty forced them to cede Formosa to become Japan's first overseas colony. The local leaders were fed up of mismanagement by the mainland and opposed Japanese rule, so they declared an Republic, althought it was crushed by the Japanese in less than a year. This rebellious spirit remains active in Taiwan today.
The Chinese nationals (PRC,ROC) want reunification with each other, but under their own respective power structure. The Taiwanese nationals (especially from southern Taiwan like Tainan and Kaohsiung) are suspicious of mainlanders of any political affliation. They want to minimize cultural similarities with the mainland, because they want to maintain their own self-determination, rather than let "outsiders" in either Taipei, Beijing, even Washington DC or Tokyo to control them.
Please do more background reading before calling other people a bunch of morons.
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The main issue of this textbook revision is that the pro-independence DPP govenment is trying to spread the idea of a sepearate taiwanese identity to its youths. This revision of the history textbook is another attempt of DPP to create a 'taiwanese' identity, apart from the proposed constitution admentment.
However, the constitution admentment may be justified due to the large irrelevance of the document to today's stituation. To be biased on historical accounts is not, the youths deserved to know what really happened in the past. Using history as a political tool will only twist history and history will become propaganda, not the truth.
From history, we can learn from the mistakes of the past and know our roots. It doesn't matter whether u r chinese or taiwanese, the roots r the same, history cannot be changed. -
If they dare to proceed, then the DPP should stop speaking Hokkien and using Chinese characters altogether.
Oh...and Taiwan or Dai Uang or whatever they call the Island is Chinese too.
Chen Shui Bian is also a Chinese name. I urge him to change it as well. -
I beg to diff ,yes,we r chinese but not PRC chinese!!!Originally posted by ChineseThai:If they dare to proceed, then the DPP should stop speaking Hokkien and using Chinese characters altogether.
Oh...and Taiwan or Dai Uang or whatever they call the Island is Chinese too.
Chen Shui Bian is also a Chinese name. I urge him to change it as well.
We r overseas chinese has nothing 2 do with this bloody communist chinese!!!
U may be a thai chinese, I m a spore chinese but we hve no association with this present shti PRC!!!!!!even we use chinese name same as all of us in TW n Spore!!!! -
West Germany embraced East Germany that led to the collapse of Berlin Wall. The total costs of reunification are estimated to amount to over €1.5 trillion.
Will that ever happen to PRC and ROC in the future is anybody guess. -
Yes,anyboby guess, but as an overseas chinese ,we r looking down on some of these PRC chinese.Originally posted by qpicanto:West Germany embraced East Germany that led to the collapse of Berlin Wall. The total costs of reunification are estimated to amount to over €1.5 trillion.
Will that ever happen to PRC and ROC in the future is anybody guess.
They r shameless,useless and ruthless communists!!!!
They sell away away thier soul 4 $$$$$$$$$!!!!!Fruk them!!!!! -
The communist threat is still big obstacle for the Taiwanese.Originally posted by foomwee88:Yes,anyboby guess, but as an overseas chinese ,we r looking down on some of these PRC chinese.
They r shameless,useless and ruthless communists!!!!
They sell away away thier soul 4 $$$$$$$$$!!!!!Fruk them!!!!!
China at her peak now in modern history. Even the West trying to pick on China on environmental issues. -
I think PRC is a big threat to the whole world, wat they want is $$$ nothing but $$$ selling their soul 4 anythings in this world including their bodies and environments n foods etc!!!!Originally posted by qpicanto:The communist threat is still big obstacle for the Taiwanese.
China at her peak now in modern history. Even the West trying to pick on China on environmental issues.
They dont care but themselves and yet we welcomed them with open legs,I think SG also sick liao like LHL said take 2 at one go!!!!
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The world even more dangerous when u have Bush as the commander in chief with all his toysOriginally posted by foomwee88:I think PRC is a big threat to the whole world, wat they want is $$$ nothing but $$$ selling their soul 4 anythings in this world including their bodies and environments n foods etc!!!!
They dont care but themselves and yet we welcomed them with open legs,I think SG also sick liao like LHL said take 2 at one go!!!! -
Wat Bush wants is oil only, but wat PRC wants is the whole world economic!!!!Originally posted by qpicanto:The world even more dangerous when u have Bush as the commander in chief with all his toys
That why they created such a high F reserve!!! -
New York stock exchange just tied up with Tokyo's.Originally posted by foomwee88:Wat Bush wants is oil only, but wat PRC wants is the whole world economic!!!!
That why they created such a high F reserve!!!
It is Japan, China/s got to watch out for. They are and happy to be used by US, in view of the China and Japan past rivalry. -
I hope these PRC spies will not go into yr house!!!!Originally posted by Mitsubishi hater:that is a good one.
I have this Dr Goh KS's story book from PRC very juicy one.
But in my heart , I pity him ,I dont know why all these professionals in Sinkapore let these PRC grls play like this be him like Profs and Drs from NTU etc!!!!
Anyway,it is also good to teach all these sillyporeans to know their true colour!!!!
Last heard these old ppls at HDB void desk in sopre also been cheated by these flies!!!!so old cant stand up oreliy still paly2!!!!OMG!!! -
At least, you and I admit that we are Chinese. That means we accept the Chinese identity.Originally posted by foomwee88:I beg to diff ,yes,we r chinese but not PRC chinese!!!
We r overseas chinese has nothing 2 do with this bloody communist chinese!!!
U may be a thai chinese, I m a spore chinese but we hve no association with this present shti PRC!!!!!!even we use chinese name same as all of us in TW n Spore!!!!
What I meant was if they dare to create 'Taiwanese Identity and totally separated from the Chinese' and that Taiwan history is not related to China. Then just give up everything. And if they want to remove all the labels that identify Chinese identity in the ROC national museum, they'd better return those treasures to the Mainland, instead of claiming as their own. Don't take it as Taiwanese knowing too well that they are the remnants of Ancient Chinese civilization. Don't they feel ashame at all??
Singapore's history proves that it does not have anything related to China at all except it has Chinese majority.
Don't just look down upon the Mainland as a mere communist regime. It is just too convenient to bring that up. I urge you look back to yourself. In essence, S'pore is no different than a communist country masked by western parliament and modern facade. All in all it is governed by the Lee Dynasty. Just speak up and criticize in the public harshly against them and see what happened. Democracy under ironfist is just a fake democracy. Admit it.
And I don't mean that Thailand has achieved those democratic values or is superior to S'pore. Still long way to go. But at least we have started to enlighten that democracy is not limited to facades like constitutions, elections, and parliament. -
Can you try not to talk from your ass for a change? How much do you know about China? What is your justification for making such derogatory rantings against another nation? I don't think you are one of those who can actually afford to travel internationally. If you don't know much about the outside world, try not to talk shit as you are disgracing yourself and your fellow countrymen.
Those who harbor such intense bigotry as you display are usually from the lowest stratum of society, who have failed in their life and are reduced to whining about their pathetic existence and bashing of others. What a scumbag.Originally posted by foomwee88:Yes,anyboby guess, but as an overseas chinese ,we r looking down on some of these PRC chinese.
They r shameless,useless and ruthless communists!!!!
They sell away away thier soul 4 $$$$$$$$$!!!!!Fruk them!!!!! -
Originally posted by JuanCarlos:
I have highlighted your main point in bold.
The main issue of this textbook revision is that the pro-independence DPP govenment is trying to spread the idea of a sepearate taiwanese identity to its youths. This revision of the history textbook is another attempt of DPP to create a 'taiwanese' identity, apart from the proposed constitution admentment.
However, the constitution admentment may be justified due to the large irrelevance of the document to today's stituation. To be biased on historical accounts is not, the youths deserved to know what really happened in the past. Using history as a political tool will only twist history and history will become propaganda, not the truth.
From history, we can learn from the mistakes of the past and know our roots. It doesn't matter whether u r chinese or taiwanese, the roots r the same, history cannot be changed.
I definitely agree with your ideals, but in reality history is often "adapted" by different states to suit their own political goals. The DPP government is starting to do this, whereas the KMT (when it was government) and the CPC have been adjusting their history for many years.
Let me provide an example. The KMT government bore the brunt of the casualties during the Sino-Japanese War from 1937-1945. Around 3 million Nationalists soldiers died in the brutal and largely one-side war. Of course the KMT are eager to highlight the fact that the CPC used this destructive conflict as an opportunity to increase their military strength and eventually oust the ruling government.
Not surprisingly, the CPC highlighted the indecisiveness of the KMT government, and its weakness during the War, while proclaiming its disproportionately better performance despite a smaller army size.
Whose version is more objective? The same events can be interpreted 180 degrees from each other. The DPP government is no angel but its counterparts in either PRC or ROC (and Japan) have not set any good examples. -
Originally posted by ChineseThai:
I wrote my post to address the TS's comment that:
At least, you and I admit that we are Chinese. That means we accept the Chinese identity.
What I meant was if they dare to create 'Taiwanese Identity and totally separated from the Chinese' and that Taiwan history is not related to China. Then just give up everything. And if they want to remove all the labels that identify Chinese identity in the ROC national museum, they'd better return those treasures to the Mainland, instead of claiming as their own. Don't take it as Taiwanese knowing too well that they are the remnants of Ancient Chinese civilization. Don't they feel ashame at all??
Singapore's history proves that it does not have anything related to China at all except it has Chinese majority.
Don't just look down upon the Mainland as a mere communist regime. It is just too convenient to bring that up. I urge you look back to yourself. [b]In essence, S'pore is no different than a communist country masked by western parliament and modern facade. All in all it is governed by the Lee Dynasty. Just speak up and criticize in the public harshly against them and see what happened. Democracy under ironfist is just a fake democracy. Admit it.
And I don't mean that Thailand has achieved those democratic values or is superior to S'pore. Still long way to go. But at least we have started to enlighten that democracy is not limited to facades like constitutions, elections, and parliament.[/b]
"Taiwan ROC deserve to be invaded by the PRC. What do they think they are trying to do? acting like the Japanese? bunch of moron! "
Let me state that I personally disagree with the move to make such changes in their history books. However, I also disagree that this is "acting like the Japanese" or "bunch of moron" since I have already explained their rationale for doing this.
This is a political decision, just like China's decision to shoot down a satellite and add thousands of pieces of dangerous debris in space.
You claim that the Taiwanese are progressing towards "giving up everything" and "removing all the labels that identify Chinese identity". I don't think it's that extreme. I doubt the DPP government is denying that their ancestors come from China, just overemphasizing that they are not the same political entity with CPC, which unfortunately carries the "China" label.
As for your statement "Singapore's history proves that it does not have anything related to China at all except it has Chinese majority" let me also remind you to read more about Singapore's history first before making snap remarks.
Also, your personal attack on Singapore is unwarranted and outside the topic of this discussion. If you are unhappy about certain posters, please address them directly rather than making overgeneralized insults. -
I agree with you that the interpretation of historical events is susceptible to one's political agenda. However, interpreting events differently is not the same as obliterating or twisting historical events. The when, where and what of a historical event must be truthfully there, regardless of your political inclinations. I think what some demented TW politicians are pushing for is deliberate obliteration of historical facts in order to suit their political agenda. That's not excusable. BUt I don't give it a damn!Originally posted by Cystaire:I have highlighted your main point in bold.
I definitely agree with your ideals, but in reality history is often "adapted" by different states to suit their own political goals. The DPP government is starting to do this, whereas the KMT (when it was government) and the CPC have been adjusting their history for many years.
Let me provide an example. The KMT government bore the brunt of the casualties during the Sino-Japanese War from 1937-1945. Around 3 million Nationalists soldiers died in the brutal and largely one-side war. Of course the KMT are eager to highlight the fact that the CPC used this destructive conflict as an opportunity to increase their military strength and eventually oust the ruling government.
Not surprisingly, the CPC highlighted the indecisiveness of the KMT government, and its weakness during the War, while proclaiming its disproportionately better performance despite a smaller army size.
Whose version is more objective? The same events can be interpreted 180 degrees from each other. The DPP government is no angel but its counterparts in either PRC or ROC (and Japan) have not set any good examples. -
aiya just bomb both of them the can already lor..
our global warming settled, food shortage settled, water supplies settled etc.. -
Many of the details of historical events are uncertain to begin with, so I don'Originally posted by dreameryb:I agree with you that the interpretation of historical events is susceptible to one's political agenda. However, interpreting events differently is not the same as obliterating or twisting historical events. The when, where and what of a historical event must be truthfully there, regardless of your political inclinations. I think what some demented TW politicians are pushing for is deliberate obliteration of historical facts in order to suit their political agenda. That's not excusable. BUt I don't give it a damn!
t consider obliterating or twisting history necessarily more damaging than interpreting events differently. Indeed the interpretation can twist the event around completely.
Take for example the kidnapping of Chiang Kai-Shek by Chang Shueh Liang in the Xian Incident.
By the mid 1930s, Generalissimo Chiang was well aware of the popular hatred against Japanese harassment. He is even more aware that the impoverished Nationalist Central Army cannot take on the formidable Japanese Imperial Army in the short term.
The people want to fight a war that is doomed to massive casualties, and they want it now. He is against the popular sentiment - he needs time to organize a batch of German-trained commandos to fight the Japanese.
He believed that China should settle her internal unrest first before addressing Japanese aggression. The communist army is sapping his Army's strength and will continue to become a threat to the state in future.
Then he got kidnapped by his own General Chang Shueh Liang, who was pro-communist. General Chang wanted him to cooperate with the communists to fight against Japan.
His trust and confidence was utterly shattered. He realized that nothing he can do will stop the war. His own generals cannot understand the importance of patience and preparation. He announced that the next harassment by the Japanese will result in war. This came in the Marco Polo Incident.
The Japanese were so surprised at the timing of this response that they had to move troops from Manchuria to fight China.
The Xian Incident sealed the fate for millions of Chinese combatants and civilians who will die in the Sino-Japanese War, arguably one of the most unbalanced conflicts in modern history.
Yet from the CPC point of view you can say it was a triumphant moment when the armed forces of China finally united against the Japanese, and the communists finally convinced the indecisive Generalissimo to do what is right.
And when the war was finally "won" using massive blood-shed and lots of foreign support, the same war-hungry people turned against the government and supported the communists into power.
What is the truth?
All I can say is that its all twisted and tragic.
If you read more about modern Chinese history, you will understand why Taiwanese politicians, especially from the south, are so reluctant to be associated with the political entity of CPC in China. -
Then that begs the question: whose version of Chinese history are we talking about? That written by China, Taiwan or the West that is ideologically aligned with Taiwan and thus might be inclined to side by TW in the arguments. Truth is always a constructed notion, relative to the audience it is targeting and the interests that are being served. Truth is an interpretation, if I could put it this way. However, fact is not. Using your example, the basic fact that Chiang was kidnapped by Chang in the Xi'an incident must be preserved and respected. However, your interpretation as to who is the good guy and who is the bad guy in this incident is essentially colored by your own ideological proclitivities and interests and political opinions which are always relative. For whatever reasons pro-independent TW politicians do not want TW to be associated with mainland China, I do not care. But if they went to the extent of stop recognizing Sun Yat Sen as their founding father in the official textbooks is a bit jarring. My opinion is then that facts must be stated in books. However you interpret that is a different matter.Originally posted by Cystaire:Many of the details of historical events are uncertain to begin with, so I don'
t consider obliterating or twisting history necessarily more damaging than interpreting events differently. Indeed the interpretation can twist the event around completely.
Take for example the kidnapping of Chiang Kai-Shek by Chang Shueh Liang in the Xian Incident.
By the mid 1930s, Generalissimo Chiang was well aware of the popular hatred against Japanese harassment. He is even more aware that the impoverished Nationalist Central Army cannot take on the formidable Japanese Imperial Army in the short term.
The people want to fight a war that is doomed to massive casualties, and they want it now. He is against the popular sentiment - he needs time to organize a batch of German-trained commandos to fight the Japanese.
He believed that China should settle her internal unrest first before addressing Japanese aggression. The communist army is sapping his Army's strength and will continue to become a threat to the state in future.
Then he got kidnapped by his own General Chang Shueh Liang, who was pro-communist. General Chang wanted him to cooperate with the communists to fight against Japan.
His trust and confidence was utterly shattered. He realized that nothing he can do will stop the war. His own generals cannot understand the importance of patience and preparation. He announced that the next harassment by the Japanese will result in war. This came in the Marco Polo Incident.
The Japanese were so surprised at the timing of this response that they had to move troops from Manchuria to fight China.
The Xian Incident sealed the fate for millions of Chinese combatants and civilians who will die in the Sino-Japanese War, arguably one of the most unbalanced conflicts in modern history.
Yet from the CPC point of view you can say it was a triumphant moment when the armed forces of China finally united against the Japanese, and the communists finally convinced the indecisive Generalissimo to do what is right.
And when the war was finally "won" using massive blood-shed and lots of foreign support, the same war-hungry people turned against the government and supported the communists into power.
What is the truth?
All I can say is that its all twisted and tragic.
If you read more about modern Chinese history, you will understand why Taiwanese politicians, especially from the south, are so reluctant to be associated with the political entity of CPC in China. -
As I mentioned earlier, there are three political entities in this turmoil: China (PRC), China (ROC) and Taiwan (Republic Of).Originally posted by dreameryb:Then that begs the question: whose version of Chinese history are we talking about? That written by China, Taiwan or the West that is ideologically aligned with Taiwan and thus might be inclined to side by TW in the arguments. Truth is always a constructed notion, relative to the audience it is targeting and the interests that are being served. Truth is an interpretation, if I could put it this way. However, fact is not. Using your example, the basic fact that Chiang was kidnapped by Chang in the Xi'an incident must be preserved and respected. However, your interpretation as to who is the good guy and who is the bad guy in this incident is essentially colored by your own ideological proclitivities and interests and political opinions which are always relative. For whatever reasons pro-independent TW politicians do not want TW to be associated with mainland China, I do not care. But if they went to the extent of stop recognizing Sun Yat Sen as their founding father in the official textbooks is a bit jarring. My opinion is then that facts must be stated in books. However you interpret that is a different matter.
You state that the Taiwanese politicians are twisting the basic facts of history. But they did not deny that Dr. Sun Yat-Sen is the founder of modern China, just that Dr. Sun is not the founder of Taiwan (Republic Of) which was started by a more obscure anti-Japanese uprising by President Liu Ming Quan in 1895.
Remember that after the KMT fled to Taiwan, China (ROC) ruled Taiwan by martial law until after the Kaohsiung Incident. Native born Taiwanese who have been on the island since the Ming Dynasty are not appreciative of people (Dutch, Qing Chinese, Japanese, ROC Chinese) who march in and impose their own laws on the local people.
In addition, mainland China is currently ruled by the PRC government under a single party system which makes it impossible to dissociate the label of "China" from its political power structure. When you say China today, very few people will think of the KMT government.
The DPP political desire for self-determination is what fuels this textbook change.
I don't agree with the action, but it is understandable. Arguably more understandable than anti-satellite missiles. -
Yes, we r in the lowest stratum of the society!!!Originally posted by dreameryb:Can you try not to talk from your ass for a change? How much do you know about China? What is your justification for making such derogatory rantings against another nation? I don't think you are one of those who can actually afford to travel internationally. If you don't know much about the outside world, try not to talk shit as you are disgracing yourself and your fellow countrymen.
Those who harbor such intense bigotry as you display are usually from the lowest stratum of society, who have failed in their life and are reduced to whining about their pathetic existence and bashing of others. What a scumbag.
But,we r a retiree,hve so much $ 2 spend in anywhere in the world Unlike u As a dog will not climb up fast!!!
Just know to carrying balls 2 survive n claiming credit 2 post here n earn a living!!! very poor thing oh!!!
u know nut about 1950s where I born,we killed all the dogs n monkey n eat it up!!!
May be u r monkey????
Fruk UUU!!!! -
Rebars chairman Mr Wong was in Spore this pm but refused entry into spore!!!
He is with a USA's passport, SG dares not 2 touch him!!!
He may need to flight back USA again!!!
Mr Wong has make a scene in the airport now!!!
Tw policeman r now in spore 2 escourt him back but he stage a hunger strike!!!
Sinkapore is in trouble again, PRC will KPKB again!!!! -
Ok, so you are a scumbag and a geriatric retard.Originally posted by foomwee88:Yes, we r in the lowest stratum of the society!!!
But,we r a retiree,hve so much $ 2 spend in anywhere in the world Unlike u As a dog will not climb up fast!!!
Just know to carrying balls 2 survive n claiming credit 2 post here n earn a living!!! very poor thing oh!!!
u know nut about 1950s where I born,we killed all the dogs n monkey n eat it up!!!
May be u r monkey????
Fruk UUU!!!! -
Anyone free nothing 2 do!!!coming down 2 airport,good show!!!
TW's spies r very well informed about this Rebars chairman!!!
SG dont kmow wat 2 do liao!!!
may be asked all these forums Gods 2 help!!!