PAP moves to counter criticism of party, govt in cyberspace
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here's something we learn in the internet..
Do Not Feed The Troll
would work well for him..Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:There is a big difference between how the Govt silences the Opposition and how silencing is done here, unless you are suggesting we are also a bunch of autocrats who rule by the sword. OM has consistently not backed up his arguments and in the rules of debate, that can be regarded both as disrespectful and dishonest. Hammering him for not backing his arguments is a direct end result.
Go read some of the other threads where OM was involved and see his high handedness in debates and you will understand the level of consternation with regard with debating with him. -
(re-posted from youngpap site on 14.2.2007)
As government really succeeded in engaging its people or countering cyber criticisms?vocalkid wrote:
The 20 major government policy errors may be just the tip of the iceberg.
hi robert
i suggest u go write a book titled "20 Major Policy Boo Boos of Singapore".
You can set up a stall beside JB Jeyaratnam outside Centrepoint Shopping Centre and promote ur book.
But first u must find a printer brave enough to publish it.
Cheers.
I am doing my part to tell the truths as they are so that there will not be so many problems.
Finally citizens must take an interest in their country and stand up for the rights and deny wrong doings by anyone who are in charge of their destiny.
If citizens continue to muddle along and not knowing rights or wrongs, they will live with more and more GST increases, double-charging and profiteering and all the NKF and Shin Corp problems. -
Robert sir,Originally posted by robertteh:(re-posted from youngpap site on 14.2.2007)
As government really succeeded in engaging its people or countering cyber criticisms?
The 20 major government policy errors may be just the tip of the iceberg.
I am doing my part to tell the truths as they are so that there will not be so many problems.
Finally citizens must take an interest in their country and stand up for the rights and deny wrong doings by anyone who are in charge of their destiny.
If citizens continue to muddle along and not knowing rights or wrongs, they will live with more and more GST increases, double-charging and profiteering and all the NKF and Shin Corp problems.
The majority of locals here does not relish the prospect of a legal tango with our almigty gov by so doing as per your suggestions. They just either play along as best they can, till when they cannot anymore, they simply pack up and migrate - just like myself.
With all the barb-wired policies and regulations governing people's expressions, it is very telling that they DO NOT want any of us to meddle but just tag along obediently....infinitely. -
He is by the definition a bloody troll. Some forums have rules for banning the troll when they don't back up their arguments.Originally posted by the Bear:here's something we learn in the internet..
Do Not Feed The Troll
would work well for him.. -
Pretending to open up is what I see it. How many a times have they received public feedback but only to brush it away. Look at the rise in cost of our public transportation, the general public is up in arms against the pathetic attempt by PTC to help us, but what can we do? They ''attempted'' to help the general population...Originally posted by stupidissmart:In many decision they do hear wat the population say such as casino where there is a lengthy decision making process and the polticians do address issues make by the population. According to them they seek the pros and cons and hear opinions before deciding to go ahead. On hanging of the australian guy, they do seek feedback and come out with statistic tat singaporean prefer the existence of the death penalty. And surprisingly for the last election, no opposition is sued till bankrupt. The past previous elections someone is bound to be sued. I think there r signs tat the country is opening up. Has it opened up enough is another question
People are not demanding free land, that would be impossible to find in any part of the world. I must admit the old guards have done a good job in providing affordable housing for the masses. However, to counter the rising cost of living in this millenium (and the stagnant income level amongst the lower income population), isn't it better to lower the cost of owning a HDB flat thus allowing the person in question to have more CPF funds for his retirement?Originally posted by stupidissmart:On the problems singapore population faces, I got to ask is it the problem of capitalism problem or is it the problem of politician here ? On the first page robertteh mention public housing earns a profit based on construction cost, and not look at land cost. Now which city in the world offer free land for housing for the poorer people ? Do Shanghai give free land for housing ? Neh... Do tokyo give free land for housing ? Much worse... Do New York give free land for housing ? Nope. Do our neighbour KL give free land ? Also no. All these cities that were mentioned r bigger than singapore themselves and they all charge a high price for the land. All gov consider their land as their precious resources and seek to earn tax from it. In a way it is good since the people who own more land, less efficient with land and stay in a good location generally pay more tax than others. Tis is not the problem of singapore, every city faces tis problem. It is the problem of capitalism.
This is a unique problem that Singapore faces thus we need unique solutions. We should not look at big cities like KL, Shanghai, Tokyo for solutions.
Regarding the scholars in question, I noticed many non-performing scholars in the SAF that are promoted when the time comes, taking credit from the work and advices of the more knowledgable and experienced (but less educated) warrant officers. Obviously there is something wrong with our SAF system but no one is willing to change it. Everyone knows about our screwed up officer system, but why isn't anything done?Originally posted by stupidissmart:About whether should we have the idea of "scholars" and emphasis on study result, I think to be fair, wat other telltale signs do we have when we want to employ a good person ? Tat is why generally education level and having a good CV land u in a better job isn't it ? Don't look at the public sector, look at the private sector. Most of them still look at education level. We cannot blame parents for pushing their children to study hard, and we cannot solely push the blame to gov and not to the companies here as well. Talking about Bill gates or other successful people, it is true tat there r such talents. But then again bill gates himself still use education qualification as a gauge in recruiting people
Anyway I probably not going into tis discussion again after tis reply. I think tis is too time consuming and too bad I am not paid to do tis
Just some points on the other side of the fence to reflect. -
Like it or not, at least we respect the freedom of speech here.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:He is by the definition a bloody troll. Some forums have rules for banning the troll when they don't back up their arguments.
"I may not agree with what you say, I may even think that you spew utter crap, but I will defend your right and freedom to say it"
This is far beyond what the state has done. -
Just some one line reply
There is a big difference between how the Govt silences the Opposition and how silencing is done here, unless you are suggesting we are also a bunch of autocrats who rule by the sword. OM has consistently not backed up his arguments and in the rules of debate, that can be regarded both as disrespectful and dishonest. Hammering him for not backing his arguments is a direct end result.
Can just point it out when he made groundless arguments, and point it out again when he did it again I am just hoping it to be done without pointing it out and scolding that person is an idiot then when he do it again, u point it our and say tat guy is an idiot in another way again. It saves a lot of spaces as well isn't it I am pretty sure tis censor the opposition, especially the timid, which is really wat the gov had donePretending to open up is what I see it. How many a times have they received public feedback but only to brush it away. Look at the rise in cost of our public transportation, the general public is up in arms against the pathetic attempt by PTC to help us, but what can we do? They ''attempted'' to help the general population...
Tis I got to agree They get a lot of feedback but they still decide to carry out nonetheless. But tis is an improvement as they will tend to look at other ways the next time and knowing wat does the public feel about certain policies. It is better than without feedbackPeople are not demanding free land, that would be impossible to find in any part of the world. I must admit the old guards have done a good job in providing affordable housing for the masses. However, to counter the rising cost of living in this millenium (and the stagnant income level amongst the lower income population), isn't it better to lower the cost of owning a HDB flat thus allowing the person in question to have more CPF funds for his retirement?
Then how to recover the loss from tax from housing ? It is easy to spend money but difficult to earn money...
This is a unique problem that Singapore faces thus we need unique solutions. We should not look at big cities like KL, Shanghai, Tokyo for solutions.Regarding the scholars in question, I noticed many non-performing scholars in the SAF that are promoted when the time comes, taking credit from the work and advices of the more knowledgable and experienced (but less educated) warrant officers. Obviously there is something wrong with our SAF system but no one is willing to change it. Everyone knows about our screwed up officer system, but why isn't anything done?
Well all big organisation have some people tat leech the work from their subordinate. U do not need to be a scholar, u just need to be a supervisor in anyway and tis can be abused... I heard a lot of bosses tat claim the work of their subordinate as their own. Sounds familiar ? -
The first task is to continue to give our feedbacks even if the leaders are too proud to listen because they regarded any listening as losing face.Originally posted by ShutterBug:Robert sir,
The majority of locals here does not relish the prospect of a legal tango with our almigty gov by so doing as per your suggestions. They just either play along as best they can, till when they cannot anymore, they simply pack up and migrate - just like myself.
With all the barb-wired policies and regulations governing people's expressions, it is very telling that they DO NOT want any of us to meddle but just tag along obediently....infinitely.
The second task is to demand through legal means remedies to all wrong doings as has happened in NKF, Shin Corp and many others which are slowly but surely surfacing like this big spending on biomedical researches without accountability.
The citizens will begin to exercise their rights - every drop counts.
The emergence of collective citizens' responses will eventually result in either exposing the durais with losses of votes and make a dent in the false sense of confidence in the elites.
Sooner they ought to come down to earth and try to show us citizens that they are accountable for their actions and mistakes.
Citizens have a stake in this metropolis and I don't see anyone should lose out to hypocrisy or falsehood or forego their right due to fear to exercise their duties as citizens. -
Strongly agree. Look at philippine what happen to thier people's money? The ex president Ferdinand Emmanuel EdralÃn Marcos looted billions of dollars when there was lack of check for transparency and accountibility. Do Singaporean want to end up like them?Originally posted by robertteh:The first task is to continue to give our feedbacks even if the leaders are too proud to listen because they regarded any listening as losing face.
The second task is to demand through legal means remedies to all wrong doings as has happened in NKF, Shin Corp and many others which are slowly but surely surfacing like this big spending on biomedical researches without accountability.
The citizens will begin to exercise their rights - every drop counts.
The emergence of collective citizens' responses will eventually result in either exposing the durais with losses of votes and make a dent in the false sense of confidence in the elites.
Sooner they ought to come down to earth and try to show us citizens that they are accountable for their actions and mistakes.
Citizens have a stake in this metropolis and I don't see anyone should lose out to hypocrisy or falsehood or forego their right due to fear to exercise their duties as citizens. -
lols watch out mr brown, you'll be first to be targetted..
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Originally posted by (human):
That assumes it hasn't happened already.
Strongly agree. Look at philippine what happen to thier people's money? The ex president [b]Ferdinand Emmanuel EdralÃn Marcos looted billions of dollars when there was lack of check for transparency and accountibility. Do Singaporean want to end up like them?[/b] -
Attempts by the government to engage in open feedback have been at best half-hearted. I would appreciate the government to address some of our concerns rather than just brushing us aside like rag dolls after we have given our votes. Their explanations being that the policies are like good medicine that must be taken. Dear sir, can you please kindly explain why this medicine is good for us instead of shoving it down our throat?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Tis I got to agree They get a lot of feedback but they still decide to carry out nonetheless. But tis is an improvement as they will tend to look at other ways the next time and knowing wat does the public feel about certain policies. It is better than without feedback
The onus is on the government to convince most of the general public, however it appears to me that most are not convinced. A quick survey amongst your friends and colleagues will quickly confirm what I said.
Rather than recognizing and considering the views and feedbacks of intellects and scholars only, the government will do well to enable the common joe, armchair critics to examine and dissect positions taken by our leaders. Valuable feedback can be obtained from these sessions and it will greatly entrench their image of a genuinely concerned government and gives them the advantage of addressing and fixing loopholes that they have not previously thought of.
HDB dwellers as we all know are not nomads. We do not move base every 5 years. On average, families can easily reside in their current abode for 10 years and more. Should the government kindly reduce the prices for their HDB units by say $30,000, it could mean an additional $40,000 for Singaporeans in their CPF kitty when they retire.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Then how to recover the loss from tax from housing ? It is easy to spend money but difficult to earn money...
The advantage? The citizens get to pay off their housing more quickly, meanwhile the government can still utilize our CPF money to invest in their off-shore investments. ItÂ’s a win-win situation for both parties but the banks (and the money minded MIW) will of course prefer that the average joe bleed for a longer period.
Well in big organization, you can sack a non-performer easily. Once you have regulars as kakis, they will reveal to you that nobody gets fired in SAF. Rather they will wait for your contract to expire. Meanwhile all you need to do is to stay out of mischief as that would give them a reason to terminate your contract. Many competent Regulars have left the force because they donÂ’t feel appreciated. Promotions come when the time comes, and the general advice given by the seniors is that just do what you are told, donÂ’t go and be a hero.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Well all big organisation have some people tat leech the work from their subordinate. U do not need to be a scholar, u just need to be a supervisor in anyway and tis can be abused... I heard a lot of bosses tat claim the work of their subordinate as their own. Sounds familiar ?
In SAF, a military organization, you find massive wastage of manpower and time devoted to their commitment to maintaining their ISOXXXX. IÂ’ve seen officers devoting their time to reports after reports with little interaction with the men. How are you going to command respect with your men when you distance yourself from them? -
We'll never know, will we?Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:That assumes it hasn't happened already. -
Given the Singularity object known as the PAP ? NahOriginally posted by bigmouthjoe:We'll never know, will we?
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The presumptious attitude found in policymaking stems mainly from an internalised belief in the superiority of their abilities.
Thus, they believe that they are always right, and we the common people, have to believe in their prescription. Problem is, there's only one GP and two TCMs. -
To play safe is better than to say sorry later.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:That assumes it hasn't happened already. -
Attempts by the government to engage in open feedback have been at best half-hearted. I would appreciate the government to address some of our concerns rather than just brushing us aside like rag dolls after we have given our votes. Their explanations being that the policies are like good medicine that must be taken. Dear sir, can you please kindly explain why this medicine is good for us instead of shoving it down our throat?
Well the gov always state the reason why the medicine is good for u, it is just tat it is not accepted. Some of the concerns is true, but there is no real solution sadly... maybe u can propose practical suggestions on how to solve the problem of stagnant wages ?The onus is on the government to convince most of the general public, however it appears to me that most are not convinced. A quick survey amongst your friends and colleagues will quickly confirm what I said.
Well the gov should acts in the best manner tat is good for the citizen. Looking at the example of IR, there r people tat will never be convinced, such as asking religious people to accept IR. 6 months for the decision and the convincing, yet there r always people who r not convinced... Give it another 1 year and people r still not going to be convinced. In the end someone had to make the decision
Lee, who has been prime minister since August 2004, took significant political risk when he made the decision, with some of his cabinet members even against the plan. Nonetheless, Lee decided to go ahead with the decision; he stated:
"As prime minister, I carry the ultimate responsibility for the decision".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Casino
Since he had already say it tat way, I guess the cast is set.Rather than recognizing and considering the views and feedbacks of intellects and scholars only, the government will do well to enable the common joe, armchair critics to examine and dissect positions taken by our leaders. Valuable feedback can be obtained from these sessions and it will greatly entrench their image of a genuinely concerned government and gives them the advantage of addressing and fixing loopholes that they have not previously thought of.
How do u know their views r not recognised or not asked ?HDB dwellers as we all know are not nomads. We do not move base every 5 years. On average, families can easily reside in their current abode for 10 years and more. Should the government kindly reduce the prices for their HDB units by say $30,000, it could mean an additional $40,000 for Singaporeans in their CPF kitty when they retire.
Well i don't think money flies so much so tat the CPF money can double itself to reduce the price HDB unit by letting gov to invest it.
The advantage? The citizens get to pay off their housing more quickly, meanwhile the government can still utilize our CPF money to invest in their off-shore investments. ItÂ’s a win-win situation for both parties but the banks (and the money minded MIW) will of course prefer that the average joe bleed for a longer period. In fact losses can be made in investing. If tat being known, where should the rest of the money for the HDB come from ? Frankly, tat is really a passive way of working in a way tat "I not going to make more money nor I take the risk of investing my money, gov should make more money for me by letting them investing my money". Do u treat the gov as your parent or superman ?Well in big organization, you can sack a non-performer easily. Once you have regulars as kakis, they will reveal to you that nobody gets fired in SAF. Rather they will wait for your contract to expire. Meanwhile all you need to do is to stay out of mischief as that would give them a reason to terminate your contract. Many competent Regulars have left the force because they donÂ’t feel appreciated. Promotions come when the time comes, and the general advice given by the seniors is that just do what you are told, donÂ’t go and be a hero.
Tat is very true. Unless u cock up big time u r not going to be fired. But then do u think gov should fire people who cannot perform ? A lot of people will be fired u know. Wat happened to these people then ? If they cannot perform even in public sector, they r going to be worse off in private sector. So we have a big social problem then isn't it ? Furthermore, there face a shortage of people applying for public job like teachers, army or police. Is a slightly performing badly battalion worse than no battalion ? At least they follow orders, can run and shoot straight.In SAF, a military organization, you find massive wastage of manpower and time devoted to their commitment to maintaining their ISOXXXX. IÂ’ve seen officers devoting their time to reports after reports with little interaction with the men. How are you going to command respect with your men when you distance yourself from them?
To maintain ISO thingy is not only a problem for public sector but private secotr as well. However the objective is to make the system more effective. And sad to say, in the military and police, it is written in their training that they cannot be too familar with the people below them. Otherwise they cannot make good judgement but emotional judgement in time of crisis like deploying the soldiers which is critical for success but suicidal...
Tis is really going to be the last reply to the threads in speakers corner
I have not time for tis.... -
I'm sorry to intrude, but I simply must after seeing your post.
Listen, I am not paying my taxes to feed those that are not performing, and god darn the government if they allowed that to happen. If they can't perform, they jolly well pull up their socks and seek to improve themselves!Originally posted by stupidissmart:Tat is very true. Unless u #*@$ up big time u r not going to be fired. But then do u think gov should fire people who cannot perform ? A lot of people will be fired u know. Wat happened to these people then ? If they cannot perform even in public sector, they r going to be worse off in private sector. So we have a big social problem then isn't it ? Furthermore, there face a shortage of people applying for public job like teachers, army or police. Is a slightly performing badly battalion worse than no battalion ? At least they follow orders, can run and shoot straight.
The increase in GST is also a big social problem isn't it, but it's a bitter medicine that one has to take (to quote the government). Isn't asking our people to shape up or ship up a bitter medicine that one has to take too? To quote you:
So do you treat the government as a charity organisation?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Do u treat the gov as your parent or superman ? -
Listen, I am not paying my taxes to feed those that are not performing, and god darn the government if they allowed that to happen. If they can't perform, they jolly well pull up their socks and seek to improve themselves!
Now we have to set your idea of "not performing" people, because the private sector companies don't fire their employees as well if they fail to perform (especially Jap company) If the set sales is 100 but the guy only manage to sell 90 despite the best of his ability should he be fired ? Another qeustion should we keep the salesman tat only manage to sell 90 units when we can't find any other people to take over his duty ? Though he sell lesser than expected, he still sell 90. If he is sacked, he sell 0. So wat should we do ?
If it is something serious like awol etc, the person is gonna get sack even if he is in public sector.So do you treat the government as a charity organisation?
I treat the gov as gov. They just set the policies and they don't spoonfeed us like helping us invest money and must make a profit. I don't treat them as charity organisation. BTW wat is your idea of charity organisation ? -
If you've ever been in the army, you will be quick to recognise that many regulars are non-performers. That includes the commissioned officers. They just wait for their performance and bonuses... I should know better than anyone because I USED to be in the civil service too. Many people in there don't deserve to stay...
In government agencies, you will notice the first thing is that it is over-manpowered. I should not comment further, perhaps we should start another topic on how inefficient government agencies are?
NKF.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I treat the gov as gov. They just set the policies and they don't spoonfeed us like helping us invest money and must make a profit. I don't treat them as charity organisation. BTW wat is your idea of charity organisation ? -
If you've ever been in the army, you will be quick to recognise that many regulars are non-performers. That includes the commissioned officers. They just wait for their performance and bonuses... I should know better than anyone because I USED to be in the civil service too. Many people in there don't deserve to stay...
Ok, can u suggest wat do u mean by non-performers ? How do they fail their performance ?NKF
If u ask me whether do I treat gov as NKF, then my answer is no
But everybody here seems to treat the gov as some NKF and keep on blaming all their social problems on the gov. They also view other countries much better than singapore. Up till now on my overseas trip, I don't feel singapore as being inferior to other country in terms of living . In fact the people there find singapore to be a good place to go for permanent residence. But I guess opinions differs and the grass always look greener on the other side -
When all the arguments have subsided, opnions won, and the water clears,
at the bottom of the pond is still mud... -
(Another cyber-agent post at youngpap site on 15.2.2007)
Metaphorical wrote:
Good budget because again it taxes and gives a bit of goodies then claims it is helping the people.
My MP say is good budget, take care citizens budget! Forever pap gov style, only want look after own sg citizens & make sure all sg peoples enjoy fruit of gov hardwork!
What happens to all the windfall profits from land sales, and all the off-budget surpluses made by HDB, JTC, URA, SLA, and all the GLCs through double-charging and profiteering in the sale of low-cost housing.
You mean your MPs do not have the accounting training to know that these are monies they made due to over-charging on the people which should be avoided by a good government. At least the MPs must have the compassion to use these surpluses to set up endowments to lower the ever-increasing fees in necessities and medicare, bus fares and utility bills now costing S$1,000.00 per household and killing off our economic competitiveness.
Why do we elect an MP if he cannot voice this concern of over-charging by the HDB and all these GLCs. -
I hope the ban button would be used for those sgmites who are part of PAP
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then aren't we as terrible as the PAP?Originally posted by ceecookie:I hope the ban button would be used for those sgmites who are part of PAP