PAP moves to counter criticism of party, govt in cyberspace
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I noticed you use the word they ''find'' singapore to be a good place for PR. How many people have you asked? For your information, I have asked my indonesian Chinese friends, my Thailand friends, my Australian friend. I can tell you what they think of Singapore. Would you want them to send you an email? I would make sure they describe to you how they felt about their life in Singapore as compared to their home. These are people who have spent some time in Singapore, not some newbie immigrant who's easily impressed. Most of them are now back in their homeland, good riddance you might say, but they are glad they did not give up their passports.Originally posted by stupidissmart:If u ask me whether do I treat gov as NKF, then my answer is no
But everybody here seems to treat the gov as some NKF and keep on blaming all their social problems on the gov. They also view other countries much better than singapore. Up till now on my overseas trip, I don't feel singapore as being inferior to other country in terms of living .
In fact the people there find singapore to be a good place to go for permanent residence. But I guess opinions differs and the grass always look greener on the other side
I've got one BMT buddy who was forced by his parents to return to Singapore from the USA. Given a choice he would gladly give up his citizenship. I use the word GLADLY. He went to OCS by the way so he was not some sissy who likes to complain.
Overseas trip meaning holiday does not give you the ability to fully understand a country. Being in Thailand for some time has allowed me to appreciate some things that you can't find in Singapore, it has also allowed me to appreciate Singapore in ways that Singaporeans take for granted.
Yes the grass always look greener on the other side, but lets say you have tried the grass on both sides, do you then have the right to compare? In my case, yes. -
Let me start by asking you this. How many years have you been in the civil service? If you want examples I can give you aplenty.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Ok, can u suggest wat do u mean by non-performers ? How do they fail their performance ?
You want failures in terms of leadership quality, failure in terms of motivational quality, failures in terms of job know how, failures in terms of general knowledge?
Tell me what you want and thou shall receive. -
I noticed you use the word they ''find'' singapore to be a good place for PR. How many people have you asked? For your information, I have asked my indonesian Chinese friends, my Thailand friends, my Australian friend. I can tell you what they think of Singapore. Would you want them to send you an email? I would make sure they describe to you how they felt about their life in Singapore as compared to their home. These are people who have spent some time in Singapore, not some newbie immigrant who's easily impressed. Most of them are now back in their homeland, good riddance you might say, but they are glad they did not give up their passports.
Well given the fact tat I do not know u and u do not know me, it is equally likely tat I may have asked more people than u But regardless of this fact the reply u give is really simply... weasel words... U can say u know 1000 people who say singapore is bad I can say 2000 people say singapore is good. U can say u went to overseas for many years I can say I live in many countries overseas for more years. It is just silly to really compare claims or personal experience etc I am not saying u r lying or anything but just telling me your personal experience without labeling why do u think singapore is just trying to appeal to emotion and bypassing logic. Let me start by asking you this. How many years have you been in the civil service? If you want examples I can give you aplenty.
Frankly speaking, the only years in civil service is when I am in NSYou want failures in terms of leadership quality, failure in terms of motivational quality, failures in terms of job know how, failures in terms of general knowledge?
Why don't u just start by telling me your bext example of poor performance
Tell me what you want and thou shall receive. -
(Another cyber-countering as posted at youngpap site)
47WYL18RW wrote:
If the root of the problem "taxing and recovering all possible costs" is not solved, such a thing will always happen and keep happening.
nothing gov. do will match u guys cynical pessisum.
if give money--too little
if no give money--cheap not caring
if give money--must be tax payers" money.
how ?
That is why NKF has been denied for years and finally the root cause has been found and durai and its board of conspirators taken to court.
How about finding the root cause of people's unhappiness with the government and solve it more effectively instead of trying to increase taxes and giving some to the poor to look good and justify past policy and postpone problems.
The whole system of government is to tax and recover and keep taxes or hoarding monies at the expense of people.
Such a system will impoverise the people and cause job losses especially when government also goes into business through corporatizing essential services to charge higher fees.
All these government's policies and actions have been the root cause of our people's crying and suffering and our businesses closing so much so that people have to be given rebates or else more and more will be jumping into MRT track.
Who causes the problems to Singapore? Were the past policy errors of raising taxes and recovering fullest costs and even double-charge the people on lands etc lead to a united people or inclusive society?
Will raising GST and giving some conservancy rebate better solve the problems we are facing? -
I find it funny to actually discuss this topic with someone who doesn't even know how things are like in the public sector. Maybe you might even say that my examples are fabricated (to quote you). Why don't you ask your friends that are working in the public sector (namely the SAF) since you don't believe me.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Why don't u just start by telling me your bext example of poor performance
Why don't you even start asking around since my words and experience are at best weasel words... -
My CO and RSM always go teabreak one leh, one day like 5 teabreak excluding smokebreak. I think they confirm kena fried sotong in the outside world.
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If you've ever been in the army, you will be quick to recognise that many regulars are non-performers. That includes the commissioned officers. They just wait for their performance and bonuses... I should know better than anyone because I USED to be in the civil service too. Many people in there don't deserve to stay...
In government agencies, you will notice the first thing is that it is over-manpowered. I should not comment further, perhaps we should start another topic on how inefficient government agencies are?
agree! been a former regular in the armed forces myself.
though technically and combat train, ppl like us spent hours in office trying to figure out how to compliance with ISO and related paper work. instead of doing what we are train for and end up doing something we are not train for and dump to do a job which our scholars CO end up claiming all the credits. -
would you mind explaining how he was forced?Originally posted by bangkokboy:I've got one BMT buddy who was forced by his parents to return to Singapore from the USA. Given a choice he would gladly give up his citizenship. -
My CO and RSM always go teabreak one leh, one day like 5 teabreak excluding smokebreak
Ah... tat seems pretty bad... bu have competed their job scope ? I know a sale person on the private sector who go around in his car and drinking kopi with friends and telling his boss he is going and meet customers. But he meet sales target so no one cares...If the root of the problem "taxing and recovering all possible costs" is not solved, such a thing will always happen and keep happening.
which country never tax its people Never recover cost may = budget deficit = like people eating into your saving while not working = can't last forever
Just because NKF has been corrupted doesn't means every company is corrupted.Will raising GST and giving some conservancy rebate better solve the problems we are facing?
How do u suggest gov raise money for budget ? -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Aiyo they are management leh... show so bad example. Somemore they are not the boss loh, drawing salary.
[b]
Ah... tat seems pretty bad... bu have competed their job scope ? I know a sale person on the private sector who go around in his car and drinking kopi with friends and telling his boss he is going and meet customers. But he meet sales target so no one cares...
[b] -
So much bombastic words to say something so simple.Originally posted by LazerLordz:The presumptious attitude found in policymaking stems mainly from an internalised belief in the superiority of their abilities.
Thus, they believe that they are always right, and we the common people, have to believe in their prescription. Problem is, there's only one GP and two TCMs.
Haiz. -
PM LEE HSIEN LOONG CNY MESSAGE : PRESERVE THE FAMILY UNIT
Yes, we people agree that family unit is important. But the picture of family unit disintegrating painted by PM Lee and several MPs are one-sided putting the blame squarely on the people.
Who is the biggest culprit causing breakdown of family unit? Is it culture? Is it the rat race? Why so many problems affecting our society despite all the so-called successes like the GDP growth of 7% pa. I would think that if we are that successful, there would not be so many suicides and dispossessions of homes under our low-cost public housing schemes/
So my new-year message is different from PM Lee's. I am hoping that PM Lee will not govern the country like his predecessors - taxing and recovering all possible costs and keeping taxes as surpluses to be spent on shin corp or souzhou and encouraging over-spending on durai talents they were proud of on extravagant projects or self-rewarding themselves and their cronies.
If PM Kee sincerely believes that Singapore should preserve the family unit to avoid welfarism, then the first tasks he should attend to after the Chinese New Year should be:-
(1) stop all the current double-charging and over-charging by all the ministries and stop all the creative accounting which drive up family household expenditure currently to above S$1,000.00 which are too much for the families to stay peaceful and together.
Until and unless the government corrects the fundamental error of governing the country based on current income and expenditure format which allow ministries to hoard taxes as hidden profits and surpluses, the government will wrongly claim its incomes from revenues are not enough to meet certain costs.
(2) Include incomes from land sales, capital gains from surpluses, extra revenues from IR and COEs and car parks and HDB flat sales (at market prices less discounts) in 2008 budget so that before raising taxes and recovering more fees, we could call see how true is the so-called deficits or expenditures behind all the presentations in raising fees and charges.
Government should not give inaccurate or creative accounts if it does not want to raise more GST and recover all possible costs as their actions will break up more families.
So it is of no use for PM Lee to talk about building family unit until he walks the talk himself.
Now more and more families are being broken up now because of inability by family to pay for all the rising costs and hidden surplus accumulations by all ministries and GLCs imposed by our monopoly utility companies, hospitals, public transport, etc.
I foresee that the government like in the past will refuse to admit this as their fundamental policy error and it will continue to use the media to tell the people about globalization to distract their attention to their most unfair method of governing a country.
I foresee all the ministries and its GLCs will continue to say that their current incomes are not enough and will have to raise fees again using creative accounts which allow them to increase taxes and fees to meet so-called deficits which are not true at all if we look closely. -
You want to show your disgust at them, you must use language that is superior.Originally posted by charlize:So much bombastic words to say something so simple.
Haiz. -
47WYL18RW wrote:
Why keep pushing up taxes through the HDB's sale of HDB flats and double and triple charging on vehicle Execise, COE, ERP, Petrol Tax, Car Park fees (Car Park and land costs already computed and charged in the HDB development costs.
working population in spore=800,000 workforce + 160,000 foreign maids+ 189,000 foreign workers/talents=2,100,000 in the work force.
spore unemployment is -4.25%=90,000 unemployed or underemployed including over 40s/50/56s non-workers.
so--is this a horrible figure for unemployed from a sum total of 2,100,000??????.
any country in the world FULLY 100% EMPLOYED?
germany is 27.2% unemployed
Indonesia 30% unemployed.
so , there u r .
spore is much worse ?
NO.
Such hidden profits and surpluses made by HDB and all ministries are profiteering and such monies taken away from the people should have been put to good use to lower costs of living and increase our economic competitiveness instead of increasing GST and charges to crease employments.
We are now seeing extravagant spending on taxpayers' monies on unnecessary concrete arches and golden facade costing millions just because these monies were allocated for ministerial budgets.
Must budgeted expenditure be necessarily spent? Why can't ministries avoid over-spending on unessential concrete arches just to decorate housing estates ? Such monies should be transferred to the national endowment funds to lower transport/utility/medicare costs rather than increasing GST to do so.
There should be no more extravagant spending or rash investments overseas on ventures like Shin Corp or Souzhou.
Citizens who are unemployed are being concealed in some statistical data to avoid revealing the extent of unemployments and under-employments of our own people.
As long as there is no willingness to solve problems in an objective, accountable and factual manner, all we will continue to see is more unemployments, more taxes and more hypocrisy.
Your so-called figures of job creations have failed to account for those who could not find jobs no matter how long they have been trying.
It is another inaccurate NKF type of management - only falsehood and look-good justification to conceal facts and problems from the public.
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suddenly all your reply seems to be the same telling about "triple taxing" yah, "double taxing" yah (all cities tax their citizen, money have to come from somewhere),
money never go to lower standard (they r part of the budget and it is pratically lowering cost of living)
suzhou (which is earning money)
foreign investments (which is earning more money),
linking gov to NKF yah (the thing is, they do it openly so don't have to worry about internal corruption. But then their rationale is there r talents drawn to work by money. If I have a choice of working as CEO for HP at $100,000 a month or minister for $20,000 a month. I rather be HP CEO. I don't donate 80% of my pay for ideals)
But there is something new here. The figures of job creations have failed to account for those who could not find jobs no matter how long they have been trying. (Lets put it tis way, the figure for people in other country who is unemployed also include people who persistently cannot find job.But since their percentage is higher, their problem is more acute) -
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congratulation. your time can be better spent elsewhere.Originally posted by Sagara: -
just when i wanted to look for some comedy...Originally posted by YI:congratulation. your time can be better spent elsewhere. -
just when i wanted to look for some comedy...Originally posted by YI:congratulation. your time can be better spent elsewhere. -
Your statement "If someone is worth S$100,000.00 pm why should he accept S$20,000.00 pm is just an assumption.Originally posted by stupidissmart:suddenly all your reply seems to be the same telling about "triple taxing" yah, "double taxing" yah (all cities tax their citizen, money have to come from somewhere),
money never go to lower standard (they r part of the budget and it is pratically lowering cost of living)
suzhou (which is earning money)
foreign investments (which is earning more money),
linking gov to NKF yah (the thing is, they do it openly so don't have to worry about internal corruption. But then their rationale is there r talents drawn to work by money. If I have a choice of working as CEO for HP at $100,000 a month or minister for $20,000 a month. I rather be HP CEO. I don't donate 80% of my pay for ideals)
But there is something new here. The figures of job creations have failed to account for those who could not find jobs no matter how long they have been trying. (Lets put it tis way, the figure for people in other country who is unemployed also include people who persistently cannot find job.But since their percentage is higher, their problem is more acute)
There is no guarantee that Durai was worth higher than S$600,000.00 pa at the material time so please do not assume he is when he and his board committed those wrongs as found in the court judgment.
In any event, many of the so-called ministers worth S$2,000,000.00 pa did not quite succeed in turning around private enterprises after they left government service so the assumptions made by our leaders as to their worth in order to push up their own salaries through self-rewarding recommendations and voting in parliament were not borne out in practice and fact. -
Your statement "If someone is worth S$100,000.00 pm why should he accept S$20,000.00 pm is just an assumption.
Ahh... but u also make the same assumption tat the minister r pretty lousy and can only find a, lets say $2,000 job outside ? Why don't we just see the system instead of the people. Do u agree tat the job of a minister is either equivalent or close to the job of a CEO of a MNC company ? If the pay is lousy, the people who can get $100,000 outside will not join as minister because they r donating a 80% salary donation to the country.
There is no guarantee that Durai was worth higher than S$600,000.00 pa at the material time so please do not assume he is when he and his board committed those wrongs as found in the court judgment. If the pay is equvalent, then it is likely people who have talent to run as CEO will consider joining as minister. At least we can be sure tat there will be more candidates interested than giving 20,000 in the post and thus able to pick the better man for the job. The system can get better qualified people to turn the economy u desire isn't it ? -
NKF revealed many malpractices one of which is the claim that it is peanut to pay its CEO S$600,000.00 pa not to mention the several months of bonuses.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Ahh... but u also make the same assumption tat the minister r pretty lousy and can only find a, lets say $2,000 job outside ? Why don't we just see the system instead of the people. Do u agree tat the job of a minister is either equivalent or close to the job of a CEO of a MNC company ? If the pay is lousy, the people who can get $100,000 outside will not join as minister because they r donating a 80% salary donation to the country. If the pay is equvalent, then it is likely people who have talent to run as CEO will consider joining as minister. At least we can be sure tat there will be more candidates interested than giving 20,000 in the post and thus able to pick the better man for the job. The system can get better qualified people to turn the economy u desire isn't it ?
This malpractice could have been encouraged by the assumption you have clearly made that in order to encourage good and talented people, government must pay such an amount of salaries to ministers, MPs as and civil servants as to prevent corruption.
There are many flaws in such an assumptions which rest essentially on comparison of the highest pays of bosses in the private business world as many of them are capitalist investors who reward themselves highly from their own business profits or own monies which in a down time could turn into quick losses.
The ministers are mostly in charge of straightforward passing and administration of laws and regulations and collections of monies and spending them without any worry about source of funds. This was acknowledged by none other than ex-senior civil servant like Mr. Ngiam Tong Dow after his retirement and assuming the post of ceo of HDB Corp.
They are not entrepreneurs in the private sector who are able to push up their pays by comparing with the highest and not being accountable to their shareholders for lack of performance or mistakes like our ministers such as in NKF or Shin Corp/
So if one has to make comparison one will have to be balance and objective and honest and not go about making comparison in such an artful and dubious manner.
Iaococca is another example of a private sector CEO who understands such a predicament of benefits and reward system. He gave up his CEO pay during the period Chrysler was in financial crisis to show that if he wants to be talented and be paid high salaries he must be answerable for performance.
I am sure I have by now shown you that it is only an assumption that in order to attract talents we must pay the highest salaries equivalent to The bosses of legal firms, stock companies and all the investor category of private sector CEO. There is no end to such comparison as our MM Lee might well next make comparison with salaries of Bill Gates and Sim Wong Hoo who are extremely creative in their entrepreneurship and deserve all their reward whereas public sector employees or public officers are only in charge of passing laws and collecting monies.
At the most our ministers should be benchmarked to the best governed country's leaders from among the successful economies like the Korean or Finland or the best-run public organizations in charge of collecting and spending monies from members or subscribers. -
NKF revealed many malpractices one of which is the claim that it is peanut to pay its CEO S$600,000.00 pa not to mention the several months of bonuses.
If I do not read wrongly, the point above just state tat Durai act in such a way because he is "following" gov lead in pay taking. But then again wat does tis have to do with whether the gov is corrupted or not ? Durai is being sued and charged now isn't it ?
This malpractice could have been encouraged by the assumption you have clearly made that in order to encourage good and talented people, government must pay such an amount of salaries to ministers, MPs as and civil servants as to prevent corruption.There are many flaws in such an assumptions which rest essentially on comparison of the highest pays of bosses in the private business world as many of them are capitalist investors who reward themselves highly from their own business profits or own monies which in a down time could turn into quick losses.
Do they compared themselves with the highest pays of bosses ? Furthermore the pay for some CEO is fixed and whether the company decline or not, he still get his pay. Doesn't the ministers get a pay cut when the economy is faltering ?They are not entrepreneurs in the private sector who are able to push up their pays by comparing with the highest and not being accountable to their shareholders for lack of performance or mistakes like our ministers such as in NKF or Shin Corp/
Lack of performance ? Mistakes ? Whether shin corp, in the long run, will fail is sill not confirmed yet. Overall for the year they still make more profit then the losses so should they get fired for making profit ? NKF has nothing to do with the Gov. It is not even gov linked.Iaococca is another example of a private sector CEO who understands such a predicament of benefits and reward system. He gave up his CEO pay during the period Chrysler was in financial crisis to show that if he wants to be talented and be paid high salaries he must be answerable for performance.
U see, he is a classic example but u can't expect everyone to follow him. He does not do wat common CEO will do. Mother Teresa went to africa to help the needy so does it means every nuns have to go to africa ?I am sure I have by now shown you that it is only an assumption that in order to attract talents we must pay the highest salaries equivalent to The bosses of legal firms, stock companies and all the investor category of private sector CEO. There is no end to such comparison as our MM Lee might well next make comparison with salaries of Bill Gates and Sim Wong Hoo who are extremely creative in their entrepreneurship and deserve all their reward whereas public sector employees or public officers are only in charge of passing laws and collecting monies.
Again u have no specifically answer my queries on the point
If the pay is equvalent, then it is likely people who have talent to run as CEO will consider joining as minister. At least we can be sure tat there will be more candidates interested than giving 20,000 in the post and thus able to pick the better man for the job. The system can get better qualified people to turn the economy u desire isn't it ?
Realistically speaking, people r moltivated by money. U can't deny tis fact. Pay peanuts and we get monkeys.At the most our ministers should be benchmarked to the best governed country's leaders from among the successful economies like the Korean or Finland or the best-run public organizations in charge of collecting and spending monies from members or subscribers.
Minister, if I am not wrong, r picked from candidate with a good track record. And they have a much higher population than singapore and singaporean r particularly fixed on the idea of meritocracy and money. As said, if u have a choice to work for CEO of HP for 100,000 a month, will u drop your pay to 20,000 to work as a minister ? Most people here will say no. -
The superior man understands what is right; the inferior man understands what is gain. -ConfuciusOriginally posted by stupidissmart:Realistically speaking, people r moltivated by money. U can't deny tis fact. Pay peanuts and we get monkeys.
Moltivate by money? The people don't need such people to serve them. Pay peanuts i don't see it will only invite monkey.Originally posted by stupidissmart:
You yourself admitted that most people don't some will. We want those Some people not most people. Soil is more than gold which one is more precious?
Minister, if I am not wrong, r picked from candidate with a good track record. And they have a much higher population than singapore and singaporean r particularly fixed on the idea of meritocracy and money. As said, if u have a choice to work for CEO of HP for 100,000 a month, will u drop your pay to 20,000 to work as a minister ? Most people here will say no. -
Moltivate by money? The people don't need such people to serve them. Pay peanuts i don't see it will only invite monkey
With a lower pay, r we gonna get capable people for the job. I believe more people will apply if the pay is better and a better candidate can be chosen. Notice tat politics is still nevertheless a job. So if u get a $100,000 job now will u go to help gov and take a $20,000 job ? If u have $3000 dollar job now will u get a paycut and apply for a $1500 job to help gov ?You yourself admitted that most people don't some will. We want those Some people not most people. Soil is more than gold which one is more precious?
Given lesser candidate to choose from, the people chosen is likely not to be capable and the country will implement lousy policy. Then overall the whole country suffers. Ideal and realistic situation differs.