Real reason behind Indonesia sand dispute
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Singapore Indonesia border dispute built on sand
Mark Forbes, Sydney Morning Herald Correspondent in Jakarta
February 17, 2007
Sand is stirring up a diplomatic storm between Indonesia and Singapore, exposing rifts over disputed borders and Indonesian graft suspects seeking refuge in Singapore.
Indonesia has banned sand exports that are vital to the Singaporean construction boom. Earlier this month, Indonesia claimed sand mining was erasing small islands, shrinking its territory, while Singapore was using the sand to reclaim land and expand.
But senior Indonesian officials yesterday confirmed the ban was also aimed at forcing Singapore to sign an extradition treaty. Several Indonesian businessmen accused of large-scale corruption have fled to Singapore to escape prosecution.
The admission provoked a rebuff from Singapore's Foreign Minister, George Yeo, who said the link was counter-productive and suggested shortcomings in Indonesia's judicial system were hampering the extradition treaty.
Mr Yeo said negotiating the treaty was difficult because if Indonesia sought extraditions, Singaporean courts would consider the conduct of the resulting trials. "Which means that, inevitably, a judge in Singapore would have to examine the conduct of their police and their judges," he said.
The Indonesian Foreign Ministry's director general for Asia, the Pacific and Africa, Primo Joelianto, said Singapore had to understand both countries needed each other. "Besides concern about rising environmental deterioration in the areas, the ban also aims to push them in extradition and some border negotiations."
Indonesia had become very impatient with the slow progress of extradition and defence agreements, as well as border negotiations, Mr Joelianto said. The extradition treaty was vital to anti-corruption crackdown, Indonesia officials have claimed.
Several Indonesian bankers accused of stealing hundreds of millions of dollars are believed to be hiding in Singapore.
The ban has been applied to all sand exports, but is focused on Singapore, the largest importer. Indonesia has reportedly sent eight warships to monitor its border with Singapore and enforce the ban.
Mr Yeo has denied Singapore was using Indonesian sand imports for land reclamation, stating it was utilised for construction. The sand came from inland areas, not island beaches, he said.
Singapore is releasing sand from government stockpiles to minimise the impact of the ban, which analysts have warned could have serious implications for its construction industry.
Meanwhile, Indonesia has also objected to Singaporeans buying islands in the neighbouring province of Riau. Navy commander Djoko Sumaryono said the purchases raised security concerns.
Vice Admiral Djoko said he had ordered an investigation into the illegal and "rampant" sales. "If the local administration is found to be incapable of safeguarding its areas we will take over security matters there."
Under a presidential decree, the administration must erect a name plate and raise the national flag on each of the Riau islands to signal they were Indonesian territory and subject to local regulations, he said. -
Just another way of saying ''Do as i tell you or then you'll know !!"....... Tell the Indonesia to go F**k Spider....... Malaysia tried for so many years and get them no where..... maybe it is indonesia's time. The local contracter will make noise for awhile...... then pay to buy from some other countires. Then Indonesia will look like a fool..... no $$$ from sale of sand, no agreement with S'pore also.
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Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia all try to bully Spore. 3 vs 1 match. So unfair.
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Iran is collaborating with Indonesia, for Indonesia to go nuclear. This will lead to regional arms race. Spore will also need to go nuclear.Originally posted by norm:Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia all try to bully Spore. 3 vs 1 match. So unfair. -
Its alright, we can buy sand elsewhere.
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If Spore go nuclear, there will no longer be need for NS. Nuclear bombs are so powerful, it makes NS army redundant and no longer necessary.Originally posted by norm:Iran is collaborating with Indonesia, for Indonesia to go nuclear. This will lead to regional arms race. Spore will also need to go nuclear. -
Maybe got a missile silo underneath the Istana liao. You never know~Originally posted by norm:If Spore go nuclear, there will no longer be need for NS. Nuclear bombs are so powerful, it makes NS army redundant and no longer necessary.
When Indoneasia goes nuclear, do you think USA and China will act blur meh?
USA will be worried about their interest in the region and take the chance to chup ji ka into SEA. A lot of Chinese don't really like Indoneasia due to the racial riot in 1997.
When they go nuclear, the only allies they have will be Iran. -
My father say that when he in NS, he hear rumours that Spore may have some small scale nuclear weapons. Small army like us can use nuclear tipped projectiles fired from tanks, that can easily wipe out the entire infantry and armour tanks units of a much bigger country.Originally posted by Hogzilla:Maybe got a missile silo underneath the Istana liao. You never know~
When Indoneasia goes nuclear, do you think USA and China will act blur meh?
USA will be worried about their interest in the region and take the chance to chup ji ka into SEA. A lot of Chinese don't really like Indoneasia due to the racial riot in 1997.
When they go nuclear, the only allies they have will be Iran. -
just send bird fluOriginally posted by norm:My father say that when he in NS, he hear rumours that Spore may have some small scale nuclear weapons. Small army like us can use nuclear tipped projectiles fired from tanks, that can easily wipe out the entire infantry and armour tanks units of a much bigger country.
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we better quickly get ready the LNG and have a huge storage for it. Else that's real big disaster if those countries go crazy and wana play a big game. maybe the govt has whatever strategic reserves but pls don't let the citizen worry by telling us our natural gas all from north and south ONLY. But haven we had enough of their nonsense? These neighbouring country govts don't care about law and order and contract agrreement. Not everyone think like us.
Perhaps MP Mdm Ho is right. We should not go around to help them too much during disaster else they see us as pity them and look down on them so they "lose face". If we give aid costing only $50K or $80K... aiya so little might as well don't give. Look at the place the indon receive the cheque and reporters... so very grand... maybe that 1 chair in that room cost more than the aid. Our govt should really cut down or even stop all this publicity and lay low and look else where. Get closer to the rest of the world and ignore these neighbour lahhh... since they don't like us.
And why the hell Temasek go buy that Shincorp shit. Why wana touch people's sensitive parts so itchy hand. Now really in deep shit and let see if the Thai military govt dare to rob our billions. -
More like a case of naive elites here acting like small bullies (can even go the UN and kao bei kao bu, meet Thaksin when other big boys don't), and are quickly put in their proper place.Originally posted by norm:Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia all try to bully Spore. 3 vs 1 match. So unfair. -
what was the border dispute about?
wah lao they have thousands of KM and wana cat about that few km?
How many more KM can we take from the sea?
well we can do nothing to them .. hopefully karma will -
You know there are some idiots in WWI threw the mustard gas when the wind is blowing IN their face?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:just send bird flu
You sure you PhD?
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You look at the Straits of Johore, a few KM means a lot.Originally posted by audiovideo:what was the border dispute about?
wah lao they give thousands of KM and wana cat about taht few km?
How many more KM can we take from the sea?
well we can do nothing to them .. hopefully karma will -
yu jia zi jiu he huang wu chi
ok sg'd fault because we small -
If Spore go nuclear, there will no longer be need for NS. Nuclear bombs are so powerful, it makes NS army redundant and no longer necessary.
My father say that when he in NS, he hear rumours that Spore may have some small scale nuclear weapons. Small army like us can use nuclear tipped projectiles fired from tanks, that can easily wipe out the entire infantry and armour tanks units of a much bigger country.
my father said to me USA missile got ppl hiding that why so accurate. do you believe? fire nuclear weapons also need specialise soldier. -
hmm.. how come this sounds so much like a package deal?
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If Spore go nuclear, there will no longer be need for NS. Nuclear bombs are so powerful, it makes NS army redundant and no longer necessary.
Nuts, it will be disaster for us.
Firstly you will spark off an arms race in the region... if we got the bomb, what is to stop others?
Secondly, it will be hard to achieve MAD. Other nations can tank a couple of hits and still make it through. Can we even tahan more then one? What's to stop a fanatical leader from letting his nation take a couple of hits as long as we were totally destroyed?
Thirdly, these are weapons of last resort. We cannot use them over simple things like border disputes or minor international incidents. So if we totally remove NS for nukes... whoes going to take care of these little things? What's to stop other nations from testing system with us as long as they don't cross the line to nuke? Would we nuke malaysia over them cutting water? If anything Singapore would be in a weaker international position then before if we decided nukes were enough... it actually allows you to be bullied because they know that you can protect your own existence with a great fail-deadily... but little else.
Not to mention, our allies like uncle Sam or just about any country will be on our butts in short order if we ever get the bomb. This is not to mention that getting nukes in the first place entails a lot of diplomatic and economic fallouts... can we tank this?
In short, no matter how we look at it... getting nukes means we are screwed.
Man, this sounds just like the compressed-air-in-MRT-tunnels-generating-power scheme. -
U know i always suspect there more than just a sand storage at tampines there, when PLAB is just behind oso
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according to australian intelligience leaked report... singapore has at least 2 nuclear warheads..Originally posted by norm:My father say that when he in NS, he hear rumours that Spore may have some small scale nuclear weapons. Small army like us can use nuclear tipped projectiles fired from tanks, that can easily wipe out the entire infantry and armour tanks units of a much bigger country. -
Hopefully they can resolve ... OF course le... Indonesia chinese are known to be rich so they come sg they will indirectly contribute to out economy... Furthermore, it must blame to indoneis failure to protect the rich chinese.. If there govt do something about the racism sg will not stand a chance ...
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How long can squeaky clean Singapore keep up its image?
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Our HADR in Aceh fulfilled two objectives. The second one made the Indonesian govt shocked, although they will not publicly say it.
Deployment to Sumatra in 48 hrs..etc..go figure. -
What Singapore Government wants you to know:
That Indonesia stopped sand exports is due to the reason that Indonesia wants to pressure Singapore into signing an extradition treaty with them.
That Indonesia is using totally unrelated matters as a form of political moves.
What is prefered of Singaporeans NOT to know:
That sand purchases are conducted thru local intermediaries and the transactions are made in such a way that they are not inter-governmental trade.
This way, local (as in us) intermediaries contacts sand suppliers and buys them at dirt cheap prices. With lax controls over sand mining, sand suppliers simply go to a uninhabited area and dig sand out of the area.
Any governmental interference is simply paid off by money which in turn was reimbursed by intermediaries. Overall cost is that sand is still way cheaper that market rate (though there are no fixed commodity price), the sand in question is about 15-20% of the market average.
This has been the practice for many years and it has created many ecological damage and has gone mainly unchecked due to questionable business practices thru out the years.
Indonesian Government suddenly place this matter at the highest level so as to prevent further "pilferage" of sand. At the moment, they are straightening out licensing process. -
wonder how long that will take. will it be before or after the signing of the extradition treaty?Originally posted by Ponders:What is prefered of Singaporeans NOT to know:
That sand purchases are conducted thru local intermediaries and the transactions are made in such a way that they are not inter-governmental trade.
This way, local (as in us) intermediaries contacts sand suppliers and buys them at dirt cheap prices. With lax controls over sand mining, sand suppliers simply go to a uninhabited area and dig sand out of the area.
Any governmental interference is simply paid off by money which in turn was reimbursed by intermediaries. Overall cost is that sand is still way cheaper that market rate (though there are no fixed commodity price), the sand in question is about 15-20% of the market average.
This has been the practice for many years and it has created many ecological damage and has gone mainly unchecked due to questionable business practices thru out the years.
Indonesian Government suddenly place this matter at the highest level so as to prevent further "pilferage" of sand. At the moment, they are straightening out licensing process.