Real reason behind Indonesia sand dispute
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any lifeline i can use, lazerlordz?Originally posted by LazerLordz:Our HADR in Aceh fulfilled two objectives. The second one made the Indonesian govt shocked, although they will not publicly say it.
Deployment to Sumatra in 48 hrs..etc..go figure.
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Originally posted by tripwire:
No, Singapore has an even deadlier WMD:
according to australian intelligience leaked report... singapore has at least 2 nuclear warheads..
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i am shocked they actually care about the effect the sand sales have on the environment!!
i fail to understand why these countries feel threatened by our land reclamation. -
Originally posted by dragg:i fail to understand why these countries feel threatened by our land reclamation.
Precisely. It is our business that we're reclaiming lands in OUR territory, with sand that we used OUR money to buy. Does it matter if Indonesia is losing their "little islands"? The seas are still within their borders, are they not? They're just looking for an excuse to put some pressure on us. I'll bet those islands aren't inhabited anyway.
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Speaking of Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia ganging up on Singapore, whoever said that has a point there... Shin Corp, sand and whatever Malaysia has got against us which I don't happen to know. -
If I'm not wrong, recently the Indonesian envoy said that the S'pore-Indonesian ties was very good. If the ties was that good, then why Indonesia still play this kind of childish & idotic 'game'? The leaders of Indonesia go eat cow dung lah, f_u_c_k_i_n_g chee bye!!!
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So come July they will smoke us again.Originally posted by dragg:i am shocked they actually care about the effect the sand sales have on the environment!! -
heard the alternative source of sand had been faced with the same problem. local govt gave the go-ahead but the central govt stepped in and stopped sand export to us at the end of last mth.Originally posted by Ponders:What Singapore Government wants you to know:
That Indonesia stopped sand exports is due to the reason that Indonesia wants to pressure Singapore into signing an extradition treaty with them.
That Indonesia is using totally unrelated matters as a form of political moves.
What is prefered of Singaporeans NOT to know:
That sand purchases are conducted thru local intermediaries and the transactions are made in such a way that they are not inter-governmental trade.
This way, local (as in us) intermediaries contacts sand suppliers and buys them at dirt cheap prices. With lax controls over sand mining, sand suppliers simply go to a uninhabited area and dig sand out of the area.
Any governmental interference is simply paid off by money which in turn was reimbursed by intermediaries. Overall cost is that sand is still way cheaper that market rate (though there are no fixed commodity price), the sand in question is about 15-20% of the market average.
This has been the practice for many years and it has created many ecological damage and has gone mainly unchecked due to questionable business practices thru out the years.
Indonesian Government suddenly place this matter at the highest level so as to prevent further "pilferage" of sand. At the moment, they are straightening out licensing process.
now, they have to source for sand for other places.... most likely indonesia will allow the resumption of sand, probably by may, but at a higher price... -
I guess in the end, it all boils down to 1 word: Jealousy.Originally posted by dragg:i am shocked they actually care about the effect the sand sales have on the environment!!
i fail to understand why these countries feel threatened by our land reclamation.
Also. someone once said Singapore is the Israel of SEA. Go figure. -
This be the price of being great buddy with Bush...
I don't see China worrying over terrorism, bombs going off, or bomb threats... -
They can be very strict on Singapore in many aspect, many rich ppl with money keep flowing into Singapore and one day they may put a stop to it too.
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Indonesia says Singapore wants to retain laundered money
Radio Australia
1 Mar 07
http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/news/stories/s1859778.htm
Indonesia's vice president claims Singapore is refusing to sign an extradition treaty because it wants to retain billions of dollars in allegedly corrupt money.
Jusuf Kalla says the cash was allegedly taken out of Indonesia by fleeing tycoons during the 1997-1998 Asian financial crisis.
He says if the treaty is signed, the corrupt Indonesians will not want to live in Singapore, but their money strengthens Singapore's economy.
The absence of a bilateral extradition treaty is causing friction between the two countries.
Jakarta claims many suspects wanted in Indonesia have fled to Singapore, which is also used by Indonesian criminals to launder money.
Indonesia unhappy over Singapore's refusal to sign an extradition treaty
John Aglionby
Financial Times
1 Mar 07
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/999a74ac-c693-11db-8f4f-000b5df10621.html
Indonesia's economy will grow by up to 7 per cent this year, its fastest growth in the decade since the Asian financial crisis, the country's powerful vice-president forecast on Tuesday.
In an interview with the Financial Times Jusuf Kalla also lashed out at Singapore for refusing to sign an extradition treaty with Indonesia, accusing the island state of trying to keep billions of dollars in allegedly corrupt money siphoned out of Indonesia by fleeing tycoons in the 1997-98 financial crisis.
"Singapore often says there's so much corruption in Indonesia. But when we want to work together on combating corruption, they don't want to," Mr Kalla said.
Singapore has said that Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, Indonesian president, and Lee Hsien Loong, the Singaporean prime minister, agreed in 2005 that any extradition treaty could only be signed together with a defence co-operation agreement. But Mr Kalla dismissed that claim.
"They're thinking on the business side. If this treaty is signed then the corrupt Indonesians won't want to live in Singapore any more. That's all it is. It strengthens Singapore's economy."
Mr Kalla's predicted growth rate is well above the government's stated goal of 6.3 per cent growth this year in south-east Asia's largest economy. Most independent economists have predicted growth of about 6 per cent after last year's 5.5 per cent.
"Our growth this year can be above 6 per cent, up to 7 per cent," he said. "Perhaps it's too optimistic but with all the conditions that are now in place it should be achievable."
Mr Kalla has long been one of the most bullish figures in Mr Yudhoyono's government, which took office in 2004 with a mandate to accelerate reforms and boost economic growth.
One Jakarta-based economist said the vice-president's prediction was unlikely to be met for years because "the pace of reform is just moving too slowly".
But Mr Kalla said the resolution of ethnic conflicts in places such as the tsunami-ravaged Aceh province, a reduced threat of Islamic terrorism and accelerating infrastructure development were all positive for the economy.
"In 2000 there were all kinds of risks, political, security, conflict everywhere," he said. "Now there isn't any of that...But the bottom line is that no country's image is going to be good if the economy is not in good shape. For example, China used to be bad. But now people are not talking about democracy there. They think the place is great. So in Indonesia the economy has to take priority." -
Before we examine the red-eye disease that swept across our neighbourhood, first we must look at our own behaviour and find out what actually causing such epidemic.
Singapore is doing well no doubt and most feel that our local media are boasting too much day in and day out about our achievements. That 'BEST IN THE WORLD", "FIRST IN THE WORLD",should not use too often and we need someone else to praise our achievement and we should not praise ourself too often. Our lcal media are trying to boost our confidence but inadvertantly hurt them too often.
Our ministers earn the highest salary in the world have already causing them some discomfort, that inferiority complex is part of the normal and healthy human reactions but a little red dot keeps projecting itself "THE BEST IN THE WORLD, THE FIRST IN THE WORLD, THE HIGHEST IN THE WORLD" may give them many sleepless nites!
Think for youself, if you are staying in the HDB neighbourhood and you earn 50 times the salary more than your heighbours' and you keep boasting about your achievements to your neighbours, check to see how your neighbours react!
No matter how Singapore needs to be more humble and gracious. If you are rich, keep it to yourself!If you are good, let others look up to you. If you are smart, let the world judges you and you need not have to hurt others by hinting that they are stupid!
Our local media should refrain from all those unnecessary connotations -
http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp?fileid=20070303.B09&irec=8
So this is the main reason - $$$. -
Kalla's getting to be a mighty pain in the ass.
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if sg happen to be world best or no.1 in the world in certain areas, why should the neighbours be sore eyes? If they have the capability, by all means, since they are much bigger and much more populated. Being world best or no.1 in the world is a fact, not boast leh... our press only let sg ppl know that's all.... did sg govt go advertise in our neighbours papers?
anyway that's just a personal thought.
so why they sore eye? is like what that taiwan guy Li Ao said : "breed not good" ..why only these countries sore eye... how come other countries/regions never make noise? Great man like China's Deng Xiao Ping even ask the chinese to learn from us openly...isn't china much bigger than our neighbours combined? Want face but lazy and "breed no good" what to do? blame us? blame lor, try harder lor....in the end still no result.
likely these neighbour countries have internal problems and try to divert attention....since sg usually don't react violently and teach them lesson or skin them alive..so sg become the easy target lor. we help our badly managed neighbour countries in a very special way -
eh.. are we talking bout the same Deng xiao ping who probably had a hand in the 'Crackdown of the Tiananmen Square Protests'?Originally posted by audiovideo:if sg happen to be world best or no.1 in the world in certain areas, why should the neighbours be sore eyes? If they have the capability, by all means, since they are much bigger and much more populated. Being world best or no.1 in the world is a fact, not boast leh... our press only let sg ppl know that's all.... did sg govt go advertise in our neighbours papers?
anyway that's just a personal thought.
so why they sore eye? is like what that taiwan guy Li Ao said : "breed not good" ..why only these countries sore eye... how come other countries/regions never make noise? Great man like China's Deng Xiao Ping even ask the chinese to learn from us openly...isn't china much bigger than our neighbours combined? Want face but lazy and "breed no good" what to do? blame us? blame lor, try harder lor....in the end still no result.
likely these neighbour countries have internal problems and try to divert attention....since sg usually don't react violently and teach them lesson or skin them alive..so sg become the easy target lor. we help our badly managed neighbour countries in a very special way -
Becoz Singapore is ruled by dictators,n nobody like dictators,so......Go go go,Singapore lose.Originally posted by norm:Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia all try to bully Spore. 3 vs 1 match. So unfair. -
Precisely - internationally, we're looked upon as sheeps being herded around by our own gov! Silenced with legal threats!Originally posted by drawer:Becoz Singapore is ruled by dictators,n nobody like dictators,so......Go go go,Singapore lose. 
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Thailand is ruled by a military junta, Malaysia by a communal political system that discriminates against its own citizens, and Indonesia, being Indonesia, need I say more?Originally posted by drawer:Becoz Singapore is ruled by dictators,n nobody like dictators,so......Go go go,Singapore lose.
Against this regional competition, Singapore dictators are saints. -
Actually I spoken to a thai friend- he supported the military coup because of reasons which are beyond me . We don't live in thailand - we don't know the whole story about thaksin so we should not be commenting on their military junta . The thai people respect the thai king and he is not ousted but instead gave the junta his blessings.Originally posted by Typhoon:Thailand is ruled by a military junta, Malaysia by a communal political system that discriminates against its own citizens, and Indonesia, being Indonesia, need I say more?
Against this regional competition, Singapore dictators are saints.
As for Malaysia , sure there is the bumiputra policy which discriminates against non bumiputra but does it really cripple them ? No. Malaysia is progressing slowly because of it , it is not stopping . I also happen to know that despite the bumiputra policy , their consulate always send representatives if their consul cannot make it to a scholarship presentations in one university regardless of whether the scholarship holder is a non bumi or not. I also know that alot of rich malaysian chinese don't act like some Singaporean spoilt brats whom I personally met and detest.
As for Indonesia, once a mess always a mess - still remains a mess. However if they do not wish to trade a commodity with Singapore - there are always other willing parties to trade sand with.
So really , does Singapore have the right to criticise anybody especially when they choose to fuck up on the wrong turf especially someone elses ? We will be making noise like the thais if Temasek was sold to a foreign country.
Remember Suzhou park? How about SIA falling from the best to rank number 7 airline? Retrenchment of local staff in SIA? Temasek overpaid 10 billion for optus in Australia? Bearing in mind, you cannot even look at what other big mistakes which has been made openly and transparently until much later when the news breaks.
It is good to be nationalistic but not when the government or its agencies makes one big mistake and muddies the transparency issues that many citizens would like to have . -
Aiyoh, I work like a dog everyday, sleep also not enough sleep, give my cpf money to elites to anyhow invest.
And once investment run into problem, cow bay cow bu in newspaper say other people bully singapore, Please define singapore in this instance? 1) an island, 2) the common people, 3) the elite government, 4)your father company?
Did they bully youo? did you buy anything in thailand?Certainly not me, not even so much as a bowl of tom yam soup.
Did they, the elites ask me if i want to buy a not?
If Singaporeans buy the shares/ stakes, and if there are profits, will the money go into our pockets? BUT, if they was a lost, SINGAPORE/EANS your cpf money was much appreciated, thank you for your participation, we will try better next time.
How many napoleanic investment can we survive? -
The article appear in today's Suday Times .Originally posted by Manager433:http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp?fileid=20070303.B09&irec=8
So this is the main reason - $$$.
Singapore is currently buying sand from China for S$36 per cubic metre.
Before the ban, exactly how much did Singpore pay for Indonesia's sand?
Now Indonesia is asking for S$20 per cubic metre. Business is about fair deal, even if it's between govt of two countries.
If these figures are facts, just buy from Indonesia at her asking price, S$20, problem solved.
Or is it more complicated than that? Anything else PAP don't want ppl to know? -
So the real reason behind this hoo-ha is $$$$$$$Originally posted by googoomuck:The article appear in today's Suday Times .
Singapore is currently buying sand from China for S$36 per cubic metre.
Before the ban, exactly how much did Singpore pay for Indonesia's sand?
Now Indonesia is asking for S$20 per cubic metre. Business is about fair deal, even if it's between govt of two countries.
If these figures are facts, just buy from Indonesia at her asking price, S$20, problem solved.
Or is it more complicated than that? Anything else PAP don't want ppl to know?
anything $$ can solve is not a problem
so.. for this indon govt, $20 per cubic metre enough?
ok... batam & bintan cost how much? ...just kidding -
2 things in the minds of these indonesiansOriginally posted by audiovideo:what was the border dispute about?
wah lao they have thousands of KM and wana cat about that few km?
How many more KM can we take from the sea?
well we can do nothing to them .. hopefully karma will
(a) hinting they want more money for selling sands to chinkapore
(b) to show off to others that they are 'big brother' to chinkapore
Wonder what will happen if chinkapore threatens to pull out from
participating and helping out with the building of special economic
zones(SEZ)s in Riau, Batam & Karimun.
Even if the SEZs are completed I wonder how many foreign investors
would want to park their investments in Indonesia.
Just because they see SEZs are working in other countries, they
thought they could build some to get out of their poverty trap.
The SEZs will become 'White Elephants' in Indonesia.
The widespread corruptions going on among the officials and
weak political leadership would mean - the concept of SEZ will not
work in Indonesia. -
We should pull out and let malaysia to partner them lor
see if these 2 will fight like hell since they so selfish in nature.