Latest news on countering cyberspace criticisms - banning
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nope, why should i be embarrassed? i'm not the one who made a fool out of themselves by criticizing the website for banning robert...Originally posted by foomwee88:Dont u feel embarrassed n ashamed of to post all these stuff here!!!
Luckily, I cant type otherwise I will be a secretary rather than a chairman of a MCST!!!!
i gave different points of view...
whether or not they really intend ban robert, we will never know for sure..
I was talking more about robert's whining and also suggesting different solution to his problem...
But i think what i said will be lost on you, because your mind cannot absorb the opinions of an impartial person. -
U r impartial person.pls dont make me laughing at loud!!!!!Originally posted by saffron60:nope, why should i be embarrassed? i'm not the one who made a fool out of themselves by criticizing the website for banning robert...
i gave different points of view...
whether or not they really intend ban robert, we will never know for sure..
I was talking more about robert's whining and also suggesting different solution to his problem...
But i think what i said will be lost on you, because your mind cannot absorb the opinions of an impartial person.
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Shit!!!quiet!!!
I c the next door dogs r doing some f business!!!! -
If you have enough time to whine on somebody else's 'whining' then i suggest you spend time doing community work or something more constructive.Originally posted by saffron60:I was talking more about robert's whining and also suggesting different solution to his problem... -
Good suggestion!!Originally posted by Sagara:If you have enough time to whine on somebody else's 'whining' then i suggest
you spend time doing community work or something more constructive.
But if he is paid to post here,we cant blame him right!!! -
No,i was only defending my views since a lot of people attacked my views earlier....that's not whining...Originally posted by Sagara:If you have enough time to whine on somebody else's 'whining' then i suggest you spend time doing community work or something more constructive.
why don't you take your own advice? I take my own advice..by countering censorship..i look for other ways all the time.... -
Ermmm.....Originally posted by Sagara:If you have enough time to whine on somebody else's 'whining' then i suggest you spend time doing community work or something more constructive.
When you are being paid a salary, it's your livelihood, if he doesn't do it, then there won't be any food on the table.
Hell!!! If PAP decides to pay me a good salary, I will even agree with their policies and defend them on any forum.
Hahaha.......
So....give the guy a break, he's just doing what he's suppose to do and earning his keep.
Maybe we can all pretend to agree with him, then his boss will be less harsh on him. -
Robert has already said that's he's not banned from the website, can't you people just let it go?
There's no use being overly paranoid, no one really cares about what's happening in this forum..other than the people in the forum
Just move on to the next topic...don't be too sad that robert's accusations were wrong....
There will always be more suspicion for you guys pick on..this is just a false alarm
Time to move on........ -
robert
please check your PM.
thanks! -
All must grow up to accept what is good for the country. Therefore people must be welcome to debate the Government policies with sincerity and not hard feeling. Government could and should learn valuable lessons no matter how right they have been in the past in certain policies from past mistakes like the lack of accountability and transparency in NKF, Shin Corp etc.Originally posted by saffron60:Robert has already said that's he's not banned from the website, can't you people just let it go?
There's no use being overly paranoid, no one really cares about what's happening in this forum..other than the people in the forum
Just move on to the next topic...don't be too sad that robert's accusations were wrong....
There will always be more suspicion for you guys pick on..this is just a false alarm
Time to move on........
When government begins to show that they are open and care for the views of forumers and other active citizens and will respond positively, there will be no need for countering. I am sure with a more sincere and open attitude it will eventually win over the whiners and all critics to their more insightful points of view and be back of the driver seat once again.
Government is paid to do the job. No matter how good they are they should not be arrogant or confrontational. The people will remain the judge of its performance. No body should be the judge of his own case. -
When government begins to show that they are open and care for the views of forumers and other active citizens and will respond positively, there will be no need for countering. I am sure with a more sincere and open attitude it will eventually win over the whiners and all critics to their more insightful points of view and be back of the driver seat once again.
Tis point seems to be repeated for some time
I wonder why r u so afraid of countering ? U r free to criticise the gov but the gov cannot criticise u nor correct your statements ? If wat u say is right, why do u fear people who counter u ? Isn't a robust debate wat u want ? If u want the people to counter u to disappear, isn't tat as low as gov banning u from forum ?
My observation is tat most of the debate here r one sided, i.e. gov bashing. A lot of infomations r taken at face value without verification. (Such as u claiming u r banned) If there r gov counters and opposition, 2 sides of the story r told and people can be more informed. Tis is good for the overall population and the real meaning of free speech. On one hand u want free speech, on the other u want to practise censorship. Wat do u really want ?
I repeat wat bigmouthjoe have said in his reply before. I find it very interesting
A forum is meant to be a two way discussion. You have a PRO, you have an Opposition. What kind of forum, what kind of discussion is this if you only choose to hear what you wish to hear? A cowards' place of gathering?Government is paid to do the job. No matter how good they are they should not be arrogant or confrontational. The people will remain the judge of its performance. No body should be the judge of his own case.
I think tis is probably the case of a posecutor and a defence for a trial. I can see a lot of prosecutors tat objective is to sue the gov to acknowledge their failure. If there r counters, they act as defence lawyers tat offer their side of the story. Otherwise it become an unfair trial. Overall, the judge, or the readers, can form their own opinion.
After all tis is said, I still have to inform u people tat I am NOT a cyber buster
But of course to most people, anyone pro PAP must be a cyber buster, and tat is really a biased view. I must restate tat there r people like me who r simply pro PAP.
Furthermore, I don't see why a cyber buster or anything need to hide his identity. If I am really one I won't deny it. I don't know why cyber buster r treated with distain and why opposition with their clear objective of gov assault r any different. They both have their own agenda. The bottom line is to see whether does his posts make sense or not. If his post make sense, he can be road sweeper and I will still respect tat and treat his post seriously. If it doesn't make sense, even if he is LKY or chiam see tong himself, I will think in my heart he is uttering rubbish.
Anyway, I think saffron is really from the cyber busting group
Up till now he neevr deny his involvement... -
:When government begins to show that they are open and care for the views of forumers and other active citizens and will respond positively, there will be no need for countering. I am sure with a more sincere and open attitude it will eventually win over the whiners and all critics to their more insightful points of view and be back of the driver seat once again.
If you want the truth, you may wish to verify from youngpap web administrator whether I have been banned as I was greeted by the message "You have been banned ...as posted by other forumers as well and could not access the site.
Stupidismart:-
Tis point seems to be repeated for some time Rolling Eyes I wonder why r u so afraid of countering ? U r free to criticise the gov but the gov cannot criticise u nor correct your statements ? If wat u say is right, why do u fear people who counter u ? Isn't a robust debate wat u want ? If u want the people to counter u to disappear, isn't tat as low as gov banning u from forum ?
My observation is tat most of the debate here r one sided, i.e. gov bashing. A lot of infomations r taken at face value without verification. (Such as u claiming u r banned) If there r gov counters and opposition, 2 sides of the story r told and people can be more informed. Tis is good for the overall population and the real meaning of free speech. On one hand u want free speech, on the other u want to practise censorship. Wat do u realy want ?
There could have been a technical problem right. I am prepared to make allowance for a likely technical problem. But you should not be presumptuous to conclude without further information that I was not banned as stated in my posts.
It was after my email to them asking them for the reasons for banning me that I was able to access the site on 23.2.2007.:Government is paid to do the job. No matter how good they are they should not be arrogant or confrontational. The people will remain the judge of its performance. No body should be the judge of his own case.
Is there a problem with being accountable to the people for any actions taken like the NKF or Shin Corp case ? What is your defence since you claim that you have the right of defence in any pronouncement of judgements.
Stupidissmart:
I think tis is probably the case of a posecutor and a defence for a trial. I can see a lot of prosecutors tat objective is to sue the gov to acknowledge their failure. If there r counters, they act as defence lawyers tat offer their side of the story. Otherwise it become an unfair trial. Overall, the judge, or the readers, can form their own opinion.
Can you say that the government did not wrong in these cases and people should not even bring up a wrong like the whistle blowers in the NKF.
So please do not detract from the main issue here by bringing the whole lot of other issues and just answer the simple question - did the government do no wrong in the NKF or Shin Corp and has ordinary citizen a right to bring up any wrong to the attention of the government or the public at large. Why be so sensitive over such bringing up or discussions of problems among the people.
This seems to have been the same attitude persistently adopted by the government in running this country - that they are infallible without any willingness to admit any mistakes and errors of judgment.Stupidissmart:
No body knows. You could still be one of the cyber agent to counter criticisms of the government or government policies although you have denied it.
After all tis is said, I still have to inform u people tat I am NOT a cyber buster Mr. Green But of course to most people, anyone pro PAP must be a cyber buster, and tat is really a biased view. I must restate tat there r people like me who r simply pro PAP.
It is not very honourable for a government officers or the governing pap members to hide behind pseudonyms to post any counter views against the citizens' internet views being the only available source of freedom of expressions in our autocratic society. -
See the pic i posted on page 2 SiS.
That will clear your doubts. -
Today, 24.2.2007, the above ban message came back when I tried click the "forum" menu of youngpap site.
Young PAP Discussion Forum Forum Index
Critical Information
You have been banned from this forum.
Please contact the webmaster or board administrator for more information.
There could have been a technical problem or it could be that the ban stays. -
If you want the truth, you may wish to verify from youngpap web administrator whether I have been banned as I was greeted by the message "You have been banned ...as posted by other forumers as well and could not access the site.
I think tis is a mistake lah. I have never signed in in my life and I also receive the same critical information. If it is not a technical problem, can u explain why I receive the same error message ? U do not need to believe my account but so far it seems I am not alone. Other people also face the same glitches. Unless u come out with a convincing reason otherwise I think it is obvious it is a simple technical issueIs there a problem with being accountable to the people for any actions taken like the NKF or Shin Corp case ? What is your defence since you claim that you have the right of defence in any pronouncement of judgements.
I think u need to get the issue right. It is never about whistle blowers or NKF etc. Everybody will encourage whistle blowers or showing gov do wrong and proving it.
Can you say that the government did not wrong in these cases and people should not even bring up a wrong like the whistle blowers in the NKF.
The whole issue is why r u so against cyber countering. Why do u want to silence the government voice and monopolise the arena with opposition ? Aren't u practising censorship ? I repeat wat another forumer had said
A forum is meant to be a two way discussion. You have a PRO, you have an Opposition. What kind of forum, what kind of discussion is this if you only choose to hear what you wish to hear? A cowards' place of gathering?
Why r u so against cyber countering ? -
You have been banned from this forum.
I got tis same message too. And I wasn't even asked for my password etc. And I have never register or went there before.
Please contact the webmaster or board administrator for more information. -
:If you want the truth, you may wish to verify from youngpap web administrator whether I have been banned as I was greeted by the message "You have been banned ...as posted by other forumers as well and could not access the site.
We can only wait and see youngpap's reply to my email and see what it will say. For now I suppose its silence confirms that it has banned me from posting since I received the banning message coincidentally after my several rebuttals to cyber-agent's postings.
stupidissmart:
I think tis is a mistake lah. I have never signed in in my life and I also receive the same critical information. If it is not a technical problem, can u explain why I receive the same error message ? U do not need to believe my account but so far it seems I am not alone. Other people also face the same glitches. Unless u come out with a convincing reason otherwise I think it is obvious it is a simple technical issue:Is there a problem with being accountable to the people for any actions taken like the NKF or Shin Corp case ? What is your defence since you claim that you have the right of defence in any pronouncement of judgements.
I think you are avoiding the issues about NKF and Shin Corp because this is where the root of the problems lies.
Can you say that the government did not wrong in these cases and people should not even bring up a wrong like the whistle blowers in the NKF.
stupidissmart:
I think u need to get the issue right. It is never about whistle blowers or NKF etc. Everybody will encourage whistle blowers or showing gov do wrong and proving it.
The whole issue is why r u so against cyber countering. Why do u want to silence the government voice and monopolise the arena with opposition ? Aren't u practising censorship ? I repeat wat another forumer had said
A forum is meant to be a two way discussion. You have a PRO, you have an Opposition. What kind of forum, what kind of discussion is this if you only choose to hear what you wish to hear? A cowards' place of gathering?
Why r u so against cyber countering ?
Since you insist on getting the issue right let us examine freedom of expression in Singapore and see how the government has made headway over the years of such tight-fisted control.
The issue to be looked at is whether the government having established such tight control over the freedom of expression that must it now also extend its similar control over news and facts as reported over the net among the people.
By means of exaggerated selective comparison or assumption, about laws and orders, newspapers today have come under the total control of the government.
Let us be honest, have all these assumptions made behind all the above-stated policies been justifiable on facts and results.
Or has the government been too paranoid and has become afraid of its own citizens may be up to mischief once they are granted such freedoms.
Must our national newspapers be negatively conceived as liable to mischief, lawlessness and all sorts of laws have been passed to prevent such consequences.
Many years after such total clamp-down have we succeeded in having a more objective and responsible press providing news and information bringing about the greater national cohesion or greatest benefits of the greatest number.
Or is our newspapers only serving as a tool of government in dishing out propaganda, untruths, half-truths and conducting themselves with hypocrisy.
Many well written letters sent to the newspapers were witheld from publication for fear of offending the power that be.
Under such tight control over the freedom of expression, the only freedom left today is for citizens to rant at coffee shop hypocrite speaker corner at Hong Lim and the internet.
Under such tight-fisted control what intellectual space is left for the citizens to discuss problems and issues like their high costs of living or wrongful losses of their monies in some overseas ventures.
Is not enough is enough and why should the government be so paranoid that there will be no end of excuses for cyber-countering to check any opinions which in any event are mostly ranting and non-issues.
It is worse if it has to do so under surreptitious pseudonyms which are rather unbecoming of elected representatives of the people.
The government therefore must change its attitude to one which is more proactive and positive to avoid more problems. Enough is enough. -
As if it is possible to censor the Singapore Government!Originally posted by stupidissmart:Why r u so against cyber countering ? What is wrong with you?
We are against banning people and stopping people from speaking. You think that they are speaking nonsense then speak what you think is sense. If you cannot, if you are so incapable, you have no right to ban people! -
You already admitted earlier that you are not banned from the website, so what more do you want to prove? no matter how you try to defend your actions, it doesn't make sense to me, cos there wasn't a problem in the first place. You made a very quick judgement about being banned and you came straight to the forum and made a big hoo haa out of it, then your league of discontent joined you, you are just looking for any excuse to bash the gov.Originally posted by robertteh:All must grow up to accept what is good for the country. Therefore people must be welcome to debate the Government policies with sincerity and not hard feeling. Government could and should learn valuable lessons no matter how right they have been in the past in certain policies from past mistakes like the lack of accountability and transparency in NKF, Shin Corp etc.
When government begins to show that they are open and care for the views of forumers and other active citizens and will respond positively, there will be no need for countering. I am sure with a more sincere and open attitude it will eventually win over the whiners and all critics to their more insightful points of view and be back of the driver seat once again.
Government is paid to do the job. No matter how good they are they should not be arrogant or confrontational. The people will remain the judge of its performance. No body should be the judge of his own case.
My guess is that you want to get banned so that you have a valid excuse to continue your ranting. Why not do the reasonable thing and wait and see whether you are really banned or not. Instead you go on to create more suspicion that you are being banned. C'mon, you really think that people can't see what you are doing?
That is not what i call objective thinking, that is outright bias and i have no respect for people like that no matter what their views are. Of course you can judge the gov, but in this issue, you have no basis to judge. You are unapologetic in your mistake...instead you want to continue your ranting, no use whining about something that didn't actually happen. Only your league of discontent will listen to you.
Realist (me) and idealist (you) will not share the same views most of the time.
Better you move to US or parts of europe if you want more transparency in the gov.Transparency is subjective, to some people it might mean being able to walk in and out of the white house as a tourist. But there's no guarantee that the govs there will be more 'accountable' than the sing gov, but you can give it a try. -
[quote]Originally posted by stupidissmart:
[b]
I think tis is probably the case of a posecutor and a defence for a trial. I can see a lot of prosecutors tat objective is to sue the gov to acknowledge their failure. If there r counters, they act as defence lawyers tat offer their side of the story. Otherwise it become an unfair trial. Overall, the judge, or the readers, can form their own opinion.
After all tis is said, I still have to inform u people tat I am NOT a cyber buster But of course to most people, anyone pro PAP must be a cyber buster, and tat is really a biased view. I must restate tat there r people like me who r simply pro PAP.
People accuse me of being pro pap although i maintain that i'm not pro anything, overall, these people are just politically motivated, they got their own personal agenda which is self serving. How can i be politically motivated when i don't even particpate in any other the political discussion on issues involving pap and opposition..like temasek and so forth?
Furthermore, I don't see why a cyber buster or anything need to hide his identity. If I am really one I won't deny it. I don't know why cyber buster r treated with distain and why opposition with their clear objective of gov assault r any different. They both have their own agenda. The bottom line is to see whether does his posts make sense or not. If his post make sense, he can be road sweeper and I will still respect tat and treat his post seriously. If it doesn't make sense, even if he is LKY or chiam see tong himself, I will think in my heart he is uttering rubbish.
Anyway, I think saffron is really from the cyber busting group Up till now he neevr deny his involvement... [/quote][/b]
again, this is paranoia talking, those who are pro-this, pro-that have a hard time understanding anything that comes from someone who is not politically motivated; at the end of the day, everybody suspects everybody of having their own agenda, so there's no chance of having any fair debate in this forum. At the end of the day, what good will come out from this forum when everybody's personal agenda is self-serving? Basically, those who are politcally motivated are here to feed their own ego...that's what i think.
Answer me this, how can i be politically motivated when 90% of my participation in this forum is in light weight topics? (some may involve a bit of politics, but not the kind of stuff that you and robert talk about) Are you keeping a close check on the subjects that i write about? Now, i'm starting to sound like you ....paranoid. You appeal to people to make sense in their discussion, it's about time you take your own advice. -
Originally posted by robertteh:
Is not enough is enough and why should the government be so paranoid that there will be no end of excuses for cyber-countering to check any opinions which in any event are mostly ranting and non-issues.
As i mentioned earlier, you can counter cyber-countering by the gov. You can set up your own website and deploy some tactics so that you can get those who are anti-pap to go to your website. If the gov try to shut down your website, then you can say that your paranoia is really valid. Now what you have is only suspicion, no proof. Has anyone tried to close down your blog before?
It is worse if it has to do so under surreptitious pseudonyms which are rather unbecoming of elected representatives of the people.
This shows how paranoid you really are. Just 'cos you use your real name, u think that automatically gives you credibility on what you write. I see that move as a tactic to score points on the credibility scale. It doesn't increase your credibility whatsoever, (maybe only to the gullible ones it does). At the end of the day, you just want to be recognized in this forum and 'prove' how brave you are by using your real name and you would have an excuse to accuse those people who use pseudonyms as being sneaky or coward or cyberagent or pro pap...the list goes on. So by any chance that you should take a 'fall' (cos your real name is exposed), then you can assume the position of a martyr and you can rally more support for your cause. -
We can only wait and see youngpap's reply to my email and see what it will say. For now I suppose its silence confirms that it has banned me from posting since I received the banning message coincidentally after my several rebuttals to cyber-agent's postings.
I never write anything and receive the same error message. Wat is your explanation for tis then ? I see tat u r avoiding the question and come out with your own conclusionBy means of exaggerated selective comparison or assumption, about laws and orders, newspapers today have come under the total control of the government
If u talk about news, newspaper etc, I agree with u it is under gov control.Is not enough is enough and why should the government be so paranoid that there will be no end of excuses for cyber-countering to check any opinions which in any event are mostly ranting and non-issues.
Though I agree tat news and press r with gov now, I still feel tat in forums, everyone have the right to express their opinion, even PAP. If u act like PAP and control forums, then how different r u from them ? In forum, everybody is on even ground. Everyone present their facts etc. The readers be the judge themselves. Overall it benefit the reader by presenting 2 sides of the fence.We are against banning people and stopping people from speaking. You think that they are speaking nonsense then speak what you think is sense. If you cannot, if you are so incapable, you have no right to ban people!
I agree with u banning is wrong. But no one is banned. -
Forgot which thread IÂ’ve read which discussed about 84 MPs vs. 50 MPs.
So I just post it here. Can read the report about Blackie in todayÂ’s New Paper On Sunday.
ItÂ’s about an Ambassador Of Love called Blackie. SheÂ’s been living at a void deck of block 835, Yishun for the past 3 years. Duirng this time, sheÂ’s a friend to the children and cats living in the neighbourhood, a companion to the elderly and provided solace to those who lost lost their loved ones.
Then a nincompoop alerted the AVA and center for animal welfare and control(CAWC) about Blackie. She almost got impounded. You know what that means. She would have been put to sleep.
Fortunately, one group of residents were determined to save Blackie. They sought the help of their MP.
MP Lee Bee Wah would adopt the dog if worse comes to worst.
S h it ! Is it a problem to let Blackie stay on to continue her good work?
Shame, shame PAP MPs. You see, Blackie is a 4 year old mongrel !
She has managed to do what many PAP MPs would never be able to do: to bring bond and harmony within the community, regardless of race and religion.
Dear PAP MPs, you all are not even as capable as a mongrel! You all have a lot more to learn from a Blackie !
All dogs go to heaven. Long live, Blackie.
Let cancer grow or kidneys fail on PAP MPs instead of on dogs or cats ! -
U mean these PAP MPs r worsen than dogs or cats????Originally posted by googoomuck:Forgot which thread IÂ’ve read which discussed about 84 MPs vs. 50 MPs.
So I just post it here. Can read the report about Blackie in todayÂ’s New Paper On Sunday.
ItÂ’s about an Ambassador Of Love called Blackie. SheÂ’s been living at a void deck of block 835, Yishun for the past 3 years. Duirng this time, sheÂ’s a friend to the children and cats living in the neighbourhood, a companion to the elderly and provided solace to those who lost lost their loved ones.
Then a nincompoop alerted the AVA and center for animal welfare and control(CAWC) about Blackie. She almost got impounded. You know what that means. She would have been put to sleep.
Fortunately, one group of residents were determined to save Blackie. They sought the help of their MP.
MP Lee Bee Wah would adopt the dog if worse comes to worst.
S h it ! Is it a problem to let Blackie stay on to continue her good work?
Shame, shame PAP MPs. You see, Blackie is a 4 year old mongrel !
She has managed to do what many PAP MPs would never be able to do: to bring bond and harmony within the community, regardless of race and religion.
Dear PAP MPs, you all are not even as capable as a mongrel! You all have a lot more to learn from a Blackie !
All dogs go to heaven. Long live, Blackie.
Let cancer grow or kidneys fail on PAP MPs instead of on dogs or cats !
Then wat r they??? -
These MPs are humans. However, they are PAP members, the so called elites. They are a breed apart form the rest of us.Originally posted by foomwee88:U mean these PAP MPs r worsen than dogs or cats????
Then wat r they???