Francis Seow,lawyers,politics& foreign powers
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Well, we have to start somewhere to balance out the state-run discourse in order to find a middle path eventually. Surely you would have to agree that our national discourse it has been far too lop-sided for too long.Originally posted by saffron60:Middle path? Haha...that's funny, since when are most of the forumers here interested in the middle path?
They only know one thing, that it is cool to be anti-establishment.
Some of us do try to be objective, but the signs are showing that it's increasingly hard to remain neutral about any policy post-1998, not to mention a seemingly marked refusal to quit ideological politics in our domestic arena by the MIW, and a sense of feeling that they do not measure up anymore these days, and that any one with some intellect can easily point out the spongy policies we see today.
The problem here is that one side believes that criticism without solutions are useless, and the other refuses to let such an elitist mindset take root any further than it already has. Politics is derived from polity, meaning from the populace. It is about the man in the street, you and I. Representation at the individual level means the government of the day has to let go of a mindset that says that only qualified people should be allowed into the arena of ideas.
This is not too good for a growing nation, because we cannot afford to sustain party control and dominance and lose out in the diversity of views that pluralistic politics might bring about.
We all want a robust and strong Singapore, but how we get there, I have to worry sometimes. -
So please dun criticise SG for the alleged ill-treatment/torture. Btw, losers like Fancis Seow and other who fled SG to avoid persecution have to drum up support by alleging SG's ill-treatment/torture, so they would look good and SG gov crap. If they are what they are, they should stand firm and fight it in court, win or lose. Why need to flee and claim persecution?
they run because they loose faith in singapore legislation.
" hao Han bu chi yan qian kui"
" liu de qing shan zhai na pa mei chai shao"
do you have faith in singapore legislation? is it still fair? maybe it is as long as it is non PAP related. -
Being the socilitor-general, are you so sure he did not earn sufficient $$$ to manage his own finances? Why do you reject the possibility that he earned every cent through legitimate work? Your counter-claim questioning the source of his personal wealth without providing evidence to support your claim is as good as no claim at all. This is little less than a hollow attempt to debunk his credibility.
if you said he being a socilitor general , he should earn millions of dollar over his life why risk taking $500k from USA to play politics in singapore if he know he is playing with fire? does it make much sense? can USA seriously by supporting francis 500k they can buy over singapore? common sense say no.
maybe ppl like "lion-noisy" can only make noise but without substances and common sense.
it time PAP spy sent out more credible ppl out to this forums. -
Middle path? Haha...that's funny, since when are most of the forumers here interested in the middle path?
They only know one thing, that it is cool to be anti-establishment.
to be anti-establishment we had to find reason to do so, why would we anti govt if it works and listen to what the mass populous want?. but to pro PAP, life is easy, dont think, follow blindly and accept it. -
I agree that there should be changes to certain policies and too much interference in people's daily lives can reach to a boiling point. But i just don't agree with outright biasness that comes from either sides when tackling a political issue (that's why i rarely ever comment on any heavy topic, because i believe that it's not going to achieve anything). Of course it is very easy to point out other's mistakes, all you need is a mouth and fingers to type.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Well, we have to start somewhere to balance out the state-run discourse in order to find a middle path eventually. Surely you would have to agree that our national discourse it has been far too lop-sided for too long.
Some of us do try to be objective, but the signs are showing that it's increasingly hard to remain neutral about any policy post-1998, not to mention a seemingly marked refusal to quit ideological politics in our domestic arena by the MIW, and a sense of feeling that they do not measure up anymore these days, and that any one with some intellect can easily point out the spongy policies we see today.
The problem here is that one side believes that criticism without solutions are useless, and the other refuses to let such an elitist mindset take root any further than it already has. Politics is derived from polity, meaning from the populace. It is about the man in the street, you and I. Representation at the individual level means the government of the day has to let go of a mindset that says that only qualified people should be allowed into the arena of ideas.
This is not too good for a growing nation, because we cannot afford to sustain party control and dominance and lose out in the diversity of views that pluralistic politics might bring about.
We all want a robust and strong Singapore, but how we get there, I have to worry sometimes.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that complaining is wrong, my point is that, when people are too biased, they can't have any objective views and somehow, can become detached from reality. They live in what i would call a 'big brother' world, where they get overly paranoid and turn even the most simple thing into something political. That is just my observation. -
Originally posted by reyes:
I understand where you are coming from but there are some people out there who are anti just for the sake of being anti. You are only one of the voices of the mass population, many of those other voices would not even know that this forum even exists. let's not forget those who are among the mass population who voted for PAP.
[b]Middle path? Haha...that's funny, since when are most of the forumers here interested in the middle path?
They only know one thing, that it is cool to be anti-establishment.
to be anti-establishment we had to find reason to do so, why would we anti govt if it works and listen to what the mass populous want?. but to pro PAP, life is easy, dont think, follow blindly and accept it.[/b] -
Let's throw a spanner into the works, and assume that more people are exposed to alternative views over the next 10-20 years, with the ability to make a rational choice based on ALL forms of evidence presented to them.Originally posted by saffron60:I understand where you are coming from but there are some people out there who are anti just for the sake of being anti. You are only one of the voices of the mass population, many of those other voices would not even know that this forum even exists. let's not forget those who are among the mass population who voted for PAP.
It would be an interesting study. -
i don't see the point in thinking about it in terms of an 'ideal' world, we don't live in an ideal world.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Let's throw a spanner into the works, and assume that more people are exposed to alternative views over the next 10-20 years, with the ability to make a rational choice based on ALL forms of evidence presented to them.
It would be an interesting study.
My concern is that because there's too much biasness going on in this forum, those who write seem to forget about those who read their writings, they may have scared off those who have alternative views and prevent them from writing what they really think. So, ultimately it results in a skewed outcome. We will never know what those 'silent' people really think because they don't want to get blasted by either side when it comes to politics. I think these 'silent' people represent the majority but those who write their 'brand' of politics only seem to be interested in their own writings and don't have much regard for those who read it (and bear in mind, this is only a forum). So, what will happen in the next election? Anyone can guess. -
i think they already didOriginally posted by reyes:it time PAP spy sent out more credible ppl out to this forums.
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I would hardly call the new ones they sent out here credible. They are just slightly better than the lion, they still make the same unsubstantiated claim as the lion. But it seems like they are trying to adopt a more subtle approach right now.Originally posted by 4getmenot:i think they already did 
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Like Saffron60's point. You can't be one-sided.Originally posted by maurizio13:I would hardly call the new ones they sent out here credible. They are just slightly better than the lion, they still make the same unsubstantiated claim as the lion. But it seems like they are trying to adopt a more subtle approach right now.
Party politics is about one-sidedness. You can't blame the PAP chappies for fronting their views, but if no one wants to engage them, it would be worse won't it?
Dialogue is better than no dialogue. And I find it heartening that the Americans are starting to try and normalise bilateral relations with NK as we speak. -
The fact that we do not live in an 'ideal world' has caused the imbalance of power that rest entirely in the monopolistic hands of this incumbent Ruling Party that has formed the Government over the last 40 over years.Originally posted by saffron60:
Quoted from Original post by LazerLordz:
Let's throw a spanner into the works, and assume that more people are exposed to alternative views over the next 10-20 years, with the ability to make a rational choice based on ALL forms of evidence presented to them.
It would be an interesting study.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------i don't see the point in thinking about it in terms of an 'ideal' world, we don't live in an ideal world.
Lazerlordz was merely trying to isolate the entire real non-ideal world - in experimental speculation of where things could have gone IF 'more people are exposed to alternative views over the next 10-20 years, .... so that they have .... 'the ability to make a rational choice base on ALL forms of evidence presented to them'... unlike the present REAL NON-'ideal world' where the people ARE FED WITH ONLY ONE OFFICIAL VIEW.
Your concern seems so close in parallel to Oxford Mushroom's line of thought - in his consistent condescending view of Singaporean's inability to discern between good and bad arguments.
My concern is that because there's too much biasness going on in this forum, those who write seem to forget about those who read their writings, they may have scared off those who have alternative views and prevent them from writing what they really think. So, ultimately it results in a skewed outcome.
This view is similar to that of the Ruling Party aka the Government, who is similarly fearful of Singaporeans being exposed to alternative views, new points of critical thinking instead of being fed the OFFICIAL LINE of thoughts, the fear that their influence is diminished; when the use of FEAR - to grip the population in a MINDLESS and disciplined effort to progress in ONE SINGLE DIRECTION - is no longer effective.
If "those who write seem to forget about those who read their writing" - then what is the purpose of writing at all ?
Has any alternative views frightened anyone from expressing their own views and prevent anyone from writing what they really think ?
It is a fact that the Ruling Party aka the Government has allowed and encouraged the FEAR FACTOR of legal reprisal to persist in the minds of many Singaporeans, so as to prevent them from participating in POLITICS.
This undue pressure has prevent anyone from writing, and silencing anyone - more than the alternative views from those who dare to write aggressively and bravely with the RARE ORIGNALITY and REFRESHINGLY ALTERNATIVE WAY.
If at all, those who are standing on the side-lines, observing the verbal bouts between two sides, are encouraged to participate and take sides - according to their opinions on the points of arguments and hidden facts that have been suppressed, and being exposed to NEW and ORIGINAL THINKING towards the OFFICIAL LINE OF THOUGHT.
When OPINIONS are formed from ONLY ONE SOURCE, the chances of a SKEWED OUTCOME can only be greater.
The SKEWED OUTCOME can happen when skewed arguments persist in a stubborn fashion without responding to the points of arguments raised on one side. Those observing on the side-lines can form their own opinion as to who is the mad fool, who prefer to argue in a consistently skewed manner.
How can you even hope to "know what those 'silent' people really think" - when you will believe that all those who will enter into a debate to write honestly and in a brave new way, are all attempting to silence those who prefer to remain silent. ?
We will never know what those 'silent' people really think because they don't want to get blasted by either side when it comes to politics.
It is obvious that the only one with the capacity to blast anyone can only come from the side that wields the POLITICAL POWER - and it is this FEAR FACTOR that has been purposefully perpetuated by the Ruling Party that has prevented anyone from participating in POLITICS.
What drives you to write in this forum - if you believe that "those who write their brand of politics only seem to be interested in their own writing and don't have much regard for those who read it" ?
I think these 'silent' people represent the majority but those who write their 'brand' of politics only seem to be interested in their own writings and don't have much regard for those who read it (and bear in mind, this is only a forum). So, what will happen in the next election? Anyone can guess.
If you believe that those who write in this forum are 3 year olds, and are not suitable to be exposed to the REALITY of POLITICS in this REAL WORLD, are you not being typically patronising - similar to PAPa.... and OM ?
After 40 over years of monopolistic grip to maintain the status quo, do we need to guess what will happen in the next election ?
With your persistent condescending manner in viewing Singaporean as being incapable to handle ALTERNATIVE OPINIONS, can we expect any healthier change to the existing SKEWED political development in Singapore ? -
With Singapore lacking in physical dimension when compared to Russia, at least the Communist Russian could send their dissidents to the hard life in the cold open space of Siberia.Originally posted by BillyBong:Did it occur to you that neither admitting or rebutting a question is already an admission of potential guilt? Ultimately, an omission of truth is still a lie, whether the question is not answered or half-answered. Wasn't the intrinsic meaning of the US secretary plain enough?
Being the socilitor-general, are you so sure he did not earn sufficient $$$ to manage his own finances? Why do you reject the possibility that he earned every cent through legitimate work? Your counter-claim questioning the source of his personal wealth without providing evidence to support your claim is as good as no claim at all. This is little less than a hollow attempt to debunk his credibility.
It is an open secret that the ISD operates beyond the boundaries of national law. The ISA permits the govt to arrest anyone on the slightest suspicion of dissident activity. Chia Thye Poh surpassed Nelson Mandela as the longest political activist imprisoned without a trial; this fact is not publicized in SG, and to this day, not a single shred of evidence has justified his 32 years of incarceration.
Wong Kan Seng can befuddle the public with arrests attributed to espionage, but it is what he has failed to disclose that is of greater interest.
Does anyone for a second believe that not a single 'dissident' has been arrested under the ISA, this claim from Wong coming at a time when the chorus of anti-govt rants on the internet and terrorism activity are reaching an all time high?
In Singapore, some opposition members have been sent into the coldness of the Institute of Mental Health, with the incarceration being made politically legal through the Singapore Judicial process.
While those detained under the Internal Security Act have at least the opportunity of being released after being subjected to a supposedly independent Review Board; what about those who have been incarcerated into the Institute of Mental Health ?
Life in Singapore's Political Prison is no different from that of Communist Russia - or even supposedly modern day Communist China.
Is it good-bye time to LHL's 'Inclusive Society', or should it be the perpetuation of a Reclusive Society ?
Good-bye First World.... -
To atobe
The fact that we do not live in an 'ideal world' has caused the imbalance of power that rest entirely in the monopolistic hands of this incumbent Ruling Party that has formed the Government over the last 40 over years.
You can believe what you want to believe, there's no harm in that. And you can talk about the 'what ifs' until the cows come home, but would it make any difference in the real world? I doubt it, that's why i don't see any point in discussing in it. You have already made known your views about politics in the past and nothing me or anyone here is going to change your mind, so what's the point? I understand what laserlordz was saying, but i'm more of a realist, so i have already accepted the fact that our views on these issues will be rather different.
Lazerlordz was merely trying to isolate the entire real non-ideal world - in experimental speculation of where things could have gone IF 'more people are exposed to alternative views over the next 10-20 years, .... so that they have .... 'the ability to make a rational choice base on ALL forms of evidence presented to them'... unlike the present REAL NON-'ideal world' where the people ARE FED WITH ONLY ONE OFFICIAL VIEW.Your concern seems so close in parallel to Oxford Mushroom's line of thought - in his consistent condescending view of Singaporean's inability to discern between good and bad arguments.
why must you drag someone else into our discussion, the other person has got nothing to do with it, if you have a score to settle with him, by all means go ahead but it's rather childish to keep dragging an outsider into our discussions. I know i do that to mau**13 sometimes, but his case was different, he kept being so nosy, i ignored his comments several times already but he kept pushing it, so i had to 'set him straight'..haha
This view is similar to that of the Ruling Party aka the Government, who is similarly fearful of Singaporeans being exposed to alternative views, new points of critical thinking instead of being fed the OFFICIAL LINE of thoughts, the fear that their influence is diminished; when the use of FEAR - to grip the population in a MINDLESS and disciplined effort to progress in ONE SINGLE DIRECTION - is no longer effective.
You sound like the typical paranoid person i was talking about who lives in a big brother world. You seem to forget that there are those of us who don't care that much about politics, don't care for the gov enough to try to defend them and don't care about the opposition enough to support them. Like i said, i'm not that interested in talking about heavy politics, 'cos there's so much better things to do than to talk about politics. I don't take this forum too seriously, it's safe to say that there are others who don't really take it that seriously either, why should we? hahaIf "those who write seem to forget about those who read their writing" - then what is the purpose of writing at all ?
The purpose of those writing their 'brand' of politics is to make them feel better about themselves and it's ultimately self-serving. The purpose of those who write and don't take things so seriously, well, it's just to have fun, sometimes poke fun at the ruling party, which i think it's much better than being too serious.
Has any alternative views frightened anyone from expressing their own views and prevent anyone from writing what they really think ?
It is a fact that the Ruling Party aka the Government has allowed and encouraged the FEAR FACTOR of legal reprisal to persist in the minds of many Singaporeans, so as to prevent them from participating in POLITICS.
This undue pressure has prevent anyone from writing, and silencing anyone - more than the alternative views from those who dare to write aggressively and bravely with the RARE ORIGNALITY and REFRESHINGLY ALTERNATIVE WAY.
If at all, those who are standing on the side-lines, observing the verbal bouts between two sides, are encouraged to participate and take sides - according to their opinions on the points of arguments and hidden facts that have been suppressed, and being exposed to NEW and ORIGINAL THINKING towards the OFFICIAL LINE OF THOUGHT.
When OPINIONS are formed from ONLY ONE SOURCE, the chances of a SKEWED OUTCOME can only be greater.
The SKEWED OUTCOME can happen when skewed arguments persist in a stubborn fashion without responding to the points of arguments raised on one side. Those observing on the side-lines can form their own opinion as to who is the mad fool, who prefer to argue in a consistently skewed manner.
i think that if one is too die-hard in expressing their cause, ultimately their actions will backfire on them, 'cos people will be too scared or find it a waste of time to challenge those who hold very strong views. Those who are pro-pap dare not make themselves known, only a few i've seen here, this forum is skewed too much to the favour of anti-pap. And those anti-pap have created an ideal world for themselves here, oblivious to the fact that there may be some pap supporters reading their views.
''those who are standing on the side-lines, observing the verbal bouts between two sides, are encouraged to participate and take sides?'' That is partly true, they are encouraged to take only one side...haha Someone else had pointed out in a previous discussion that if people truly believe in freedom of speech, then they should allow both sides to talk, not asking for one of them to stop talking in this forum (the person who made this comment was not anti-pap). Even before i came along, someone else had pointed this out already.
Skewed outcome can also happen when those who share the same views outnumber those who share the alternative views and the majority of those who share the same views, try to 'silence' those who have the alternative views. Those who are die-hard anti-pap at the end of the day, are behaving like those pap in the gov whom they criticize.How can you even hope to "know what those 'silent' people really think" - when you will believe that all those who will enter into a debate to write honestly and in a brave new way, are all attempting to silence those who prefer to remain silent. ?
In this forum, i have seen both sides being blastered for their views, but those who are pro-pap get it a lot more. You guys may win by no of voices in this forum but not by no of 'silent' voices. There are many reasons why people choose to be 'silent' when it comes to political discussions and getting 'blastered' by those die hard anti-pap is one of the reasons. I had someone complain to me about this, so i'm not imagining things, it really is happening in this forum.
It is obvious that the only one with the capacity to blast anyone can only come from the side that wields the POLITICAL POWER - and it is this FEAR FACTOR that has been purposefully perpetuated by the Ruling Party that has prevented anyone from participating in POLITICS.What drives you to write in this forum - if you believe that "those who write their brand of politics only seem to be interested in their own writing and don't have much regard for those who read it" ?
What drives me to write? I write for fun i guess, i don't get into those heavy political discussions as i mentioned earlier, cos i think it's a waste of time. I didn't say that those who write in this forum are 3 yr olds, but if you think they are 3 yr olds, so be it. And if you are referring to 'mau**13', yes, i know i was harsh on him, but i think he was being really annoying and he deserved to have a taste of his own medicine.
If you believe that those who write in this forum are 3 year olds, and are not suitable to be exposed to the REALITY of POLITICS in this REAL WORLD, are you not being typically patronising - similar to PAPa.... and OM ?
After 40 over years of monopolistic grip to maintain the status quo, do we need to guess what will happen in the next election ?
With your persistent condescending manner in viewing Singaporean as being incapable to handle ALTERNATIVE OPINIONS, can we expect any healthier change to the existing SKEWED political development in Singapore ?
about the papa poodle thing, i got suspicious, because i saw that the quality of his writing suddenly bear close resemblance to yours, so it gave me a good opportunity to mock the both of you....
pot calling the kettle black, you are pretty condescending yourself, in fact, it was your arrogant manner that drove me to challenge your views in the first place. -
It's safe to say that you guys have fallen into the 'PAP' trap when you think that i'm one of them. just like how Iran has fallen into the 'Bush' trap.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Like Saffron60's point. You can't be one-sided.
Party politics is about one-sidedness. You can't blame the PAP chappies for fronting their views, but if no one wants to engage them, it would be worse won't it?
Dialogue is better than no dialogue. And I find it heartening that the Americans are starting to try and normalise bilateral relations with NK as we speak.
I'm very flattered that you guys think that i'm more credible than the lion, as we all know, it doesn't take much to be better than the lion. I guess everyone needs a 'lion' to patronize so that they feel better about themselves at the end of the day, they can sleep more soundly knowing that they have more intellect than a 'sixth former' -
Slight better than the lion? I must be right about the 'men's trousers' bit.Originally posted by maurizio13:I would hardly call the new ones they sent out here credible. They are just slightly better than the lion, they still make the same unsubstantiated claim as the lion. But it seems like they are trying to adopt a more subtle approach right now.
I already know that you are not very bright, no need to advertise -
Originally posted by saffron60:
Since there is no harm in it. Why are you "bothered" by forumers having healthy discussions? It might not make any difference now, but having more people discussing it, more people will realised the different issues and perspectives. You don't see any point discussing it, does not mean everybody will see your logic, you might like coffee, others might prefer tea. So if someone produces a different perspective on the issues, you can provide alternative views, not lambast others for their views. I am sure the people here are smart enough to discern for themselves.
[b]To atobe
You can believe what you want to believe, there's no harm in that. And you can talk about the 'what ifs' until the cows come home, but would it make any difference in the real world? I doubt it, that's why i don't see any point in discussing in it. You have already made known your views about politics in the past and nothing me or anyone here is going to change your mind, so what's the point? I understand what laserlordz was saying, but i'm more of a realist, so i have already accepted the fact that our views on these issues will be rather different.
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Why are you suppressing healthy discussions by telling us there is no point in it?
Humans always strive to achieve the best, that's the human spirit, if we are always contended with the workings of things, we would not have been able to walk on the moon or reach the depths of the oceans.
Why does it irk you so much?
What is your ulterior motive behind this suppression?
If there are no motives, then our discussions shouldn't irritate you at allOriginally posted by saffron60:
I am one of those that would stand up if I see any injustice done. I just don't like the way attack Atobe personally, when he/she was just having a healthy discussion. Set me straight? Hehehe..... Another delusion?
[b]To atobe
why must you drag someone else into our discussion, the other person has got nothing to do with it, if you have a score to settle with him, by all means go ahead but it's rather childish to keep dragging an outsider into our discussions. I know i do that to mau**13 sometimes, but his case was different, he kept being so nosy, i ignored his comments several times already but he kept pushing it, so i had to 'set him straight'..haha
You sound like the typical paranoid person i was talking about who lives in a big brother world. You seem to forget that there are those of us who don't care that much about politics, don't care for the gov enough to try to defend them and don't care about the opposition enough to support them. Like i said, i'm not that interested in talking about heavy politics, 'cos there's so much better things to do than to talk about politics. I don't take this forum too seriously, it's safe to say that there are others who don't really take it that seriously either, why should we? haha
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If you are not interested in talking about politics, then you can jolly well bugger out of here. Nobody is forcing you to listen to our discussions. Why do you try to suppress differing views?
Like I said, nobody asked you to stay, but if you choose to partake in political discussions, then start with personal attacks.
I wonder why you kept saying that you are not interested in political discussion, but persist to stay in this forum and defend the Pigs Arse Party.Originally posted by saffron60:
I doubt there are many PAP supporters here, at least not from their participation rate. Quite a number of PAP supporters attack opposition supporters too, it's not only a one sided affair. We have the likes of OM, SiS, Gazelle and You. I think loinnoisy is the only PAP supporter that does no personal attacks, but he seemed more like an opposition supporter, opening up issues for opposition to attack.
[b]To atobe
i think that if one is too die-hard in expressing their cause, ultimately their actions will backfire on them, 'cos people will be too scared or find it a waste of time to challenge those who hold very strong views. Those who are pro-pap dare not make themselves known, only a few i've seen here, this forum is skewed too much to the favour of anti-pap. And those anti-pap have created an ideal world for themselves here, oblivious to the fact that there may be some pap supporters reading their views.
''those who are standing on the side-lines, observing the verbal bouts between two sides, are encouraged to participate and take sides?'' That is partly true, they are encouraged to take only one side...haha Someone else had pointed out in a previous discussion that if people truly believe in freedom of speech, then they should allow both sides to talk, not asking for one of them to stop talking in this forum (the person who made this comment was not anti-pap). Even before i came along, someone else had pointed this out already.
Skewed outcome can also happen when those who share the same views outnumber those who share the alternative views and the majority of those who share the same views, try to 'silence' those who have the alternative views. Those who are die-hard anti-pap at the end of the day, are behaving like those pap in the gov whom they criticize.
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For most of the discussions, the PAP supporters will normally come up with a rebuttal for the opposition supporters, but when counter rebutted and they can't come up with a good response, they will succumb to personal attacks.Originally posted by saffron60:
You keep telling us that it's a waste of time, but you kept participating in political discussions and trying very hard to convince others from not participating in political discussions. Make sense?
[b]To atobe
What drives me to write? I write for fun i guess, i don't get into those heavy political discussions as i mentioned earlier, cos i think it's a waste of time. I didn't say that those who write in this forum are 3 yr olds, but if you think they are 3 yr olds, so be it. And if you are referring to 'mau**13', yes, i know i was harsh on him, but i think he was being really annoying and he deserved to have a taste of his own medicine.
about the papa poodle thing, i got suspicious, because i saw that the quality of his writing suddenly bear close resemblance to yours, so it gave me a good opportunity to mock the both of you....
pot calling the kettle black, you are pretty condescending yourself, in fact, it was your arrogant manner that drove me to challenge your views in the first place.
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Why have I been annoying? I didn't attack you personally in the "SG top in foreign reserve per capita" thread. Don't understand why you persist in attacking me or Atobe. Is it because I make sense and you are afraid of opening up others to alternative views.
Such a lengthy discussion coming from a person who claims that he has no interest in politics and tries to convince others not to take part in any political discussions because it's useless. You sure make a lot of sense. -
You prove my point about personal attacks.Originally posted by saffron60:Slight better than the lion? I must be right about the 'men's trousers' bit.
I already know that you are not very bright, no need to advertise 
This sentence coming from a person who at first claims that he is no expert in economics and then begins correcting another non-expert (Atobe) in "SG top in foreign reserve per capita", then proceeds to do damage control by claiming that he knows something about economics.
If you see a non expert correcting another non expert, it's hypocrisy. -
To maurizio13
Since there is no harm in it. Why are you "bothered" by forumers having healthy discussions? It might not make any difference now, but having more people discussing it, more people will realised the different issues and perspectives. You don't see any point discussing it, does not mean everybody will see your logic, you might like coffee, others might prefer tea. So if someone produces a different perspective on the issues, you can provide alternative views, not lambast others for their views. I am sure the people here are smart enough to discern for themselves
There's no harm in believing what you want to believe, but there will always be those who have alternative points of view.
Oh, you misunderstand, i'm not 'bothered' by the forumers and not here to convert people to see my logic, in fact, i'm here to disturb them; to give them a taste of their own medicine. i represent 'freedom of speech'...hahaWhy are you suppressing healthy discussions by telling us there is no point in it?
Healthy debate? you mean in this forum? Since when?
Humans always strive to achieve the best, that's the human spirit, if we are always contended with the workings of things, we would not have been able to walk on the moon or reach the depths of the oceans.
Why does it irk you so much?
What is your ulterior motive behind this suppression?
If there are no motives, then our discussions shouldn't irritate you at all Btw, i said that i see no point in it, of course, most people won't agree with me on that, if they want to, by all means go ahead, to me, it's just a waste of time because the die-hard anti-pap will squash those who challenge their views with their so-called 'freedom of speech'.
I can ask you the same question back again, why are you so intimidated by my point of view?
are you scared that other people will also think that it's pointless to talk about politics?
Why do you want to suppress these people from seeing my point of view?
My motive is very simple as i mentioned earlier, to give you guys a taste of your own bitter medicine.I am one of those that would stand up if I see any injustice done. I just don't like the way attack Atobe personally, when he/she was just having a healthy discussion. Set me straight? Hehehe..... Another delusion?
hehe....Atobe asked for it, he likes to put down those who challenge his views and he also likes to insult them, so why not do the same thing to him? I can jolly well irritate people like you as much as you irritate me and other people as well....that's what i call democracy!
If you are not interested in talking about politics, then you can jolly well bugger out of here. Nobody is forcing you to listen to our discussions. Why do you try to suppress differing views?
Like I said, nobody asked you to stay, but if you choose to partake in political discussions, then start with personal attacks.
I wonder why you kept saying that you are not interested in political discussion, but persist to stay in this forum and defend the Pigs Arse Party.
Since when have i defended the PAP? Can you find at least one statement that i made in their defence?
Like i said, you are not very bright, no need to advertise... -
To maurizio13,
I doubt there are many PAP supporters here, at least not from their participation rate. Quite a number of PAP supporters attack opposition supporters too, it's not only a one sided affair. We have the likes of OM, SiS, Gazelle and You. I think loinnoisy is the only PAP supporter that does no personal attacks, but he seemed more like an opposition supporter, opening up issues for opposition to attack.
well, duh....why do you think not many people want to defend PAP in this forum? duhhhh....... For most of the discussions, the PAP supporters will normally come up with a rebuttal for the opposition supporters, but when counter rebutted and they can't come up with a good response, they will succumb to personal attacks.
pot calling the kettle black, wait i think it's more like the die hard anti-pap will make personal attacks in the beginning, middle and end of their so-called 'healthy debates'.
Wrong use of the word 'rebuttal' in your statement but wait, i don't want to be accused of being a nit picker..so i'll stop myself from correcting you.You keep telling us that it's a waste of time, but you kept participating in political discussions and trying very hard to convince others from not participating in political discussions. Make sense?
Like i said, you are not very bright, i'm not in the 'thick' of the political discussions, i'm somewhere on the fringe of the debate, do you get it now? No point in discussing details, i'm not a crusader...i'm not here to convert people.
Why have I been annoying? I didn't attack you personally in the "SG top in foreign reserve per capita" thread. Don't understand why you persist in attacking me or Atobe. Is it because I make sense and you are afraid of opening up others to alternative views.
Such a lengthy discussion coming from a person who claims that he has no interest in politics and tries to convince others not to take part in any political discussions because it's useless. You sure make a lot of sense.
Yes, you are very annoying, i ignored you the first few times, but you keep coming back...just like a roach. You make sense? Nah...it's more like you don't have much sense in the first place. I like to hang around the fringe of debates and give you back a big dose of your own medicine. -
This statement comes from someone who is sour grapes about the whole 'economics' debate in another thread and who in that thread already admitted that atobe is wrong and over here, trying to resurrect old issues and saying completely different thing.Originally posted by maurizio13:You prove my point about personal attacks.
This sentence coming from a person who at first claims that he is no expert in economics and then begins correcting another non-expert (Atobe) in "SG top in foreign reserve per capita", then proceeds to do damage control by claiming that he knows something about economics.
If you see a non expert correcting another non expert, it's hypocrisy.
Since you like to resurrect issues, i have something to say about this. I can still remember when one of the forumers said that:
you are one of those people who make anti-pap people look stupid and vulgar ....
That was very funny.....i laugh everytime i think about it. -
If you truly believe that there is nothing to discuss, or that it make little difference in the real world - why did you take the trouble to make the following expression of concern ?Originally posted by saffron60:
To atobe
The fact that we do not live in an 'ideal world' has caused the imbalance of power that rest entirely in the monopolistic hands of this incumbent Ruling Party that has formed the Government over the last 40 over years.
Lazerlordz was merely trying to isolate the entire real non-ideal world - in experimental speculation of where things could have gone IF 'more people are exposed to alternative views over the next 10-20 years, .... so that they have .... 'the ability to make a rational choice base on ALL forms of evidence presented to them'... unlike the present REAL NON-'ideal world' where the people ARE FED WITH ONLY ONE OFFICIAL VIEW.You can believe what you want to believe, there's no harm in that. And you can talk about the 'what ifs' until the cows come home, but would it make any difference in the real world? I doubt it, that's why i don't see any point in discussing in it. You have already made known your views about politics in the past and nothing me or anyone here is going to change your mind, so what's the point? I understand what laserlordz was saying, but i'm more of a realist, so i have already accepted the fact that our views on these issues will be rather different.
"My concern is that because there's too much biasness going on in this forum, those who write seem to forget about those who read their writings, they may have scared off those who have alternative views and prevent them from writing what they really think."
If you accept that our views to be different, why do you prevent others from reading our writings ?
Are you afraid that they will know "the other side of the coin" or are you simply afraid of the awakening of those to the lies that you prefer to help perpetuate ?
Why are you troubled by the link to the parallel of your thoughts to that of OM ?Your concern seems so close in parallel to Oxford Mushroom's line of thought - in his consistent condescending view of Singaporean's inability to discern between good and bad arguments.
This view is similar to that of the Ruling Party aka the Government, who is similarly fearful of Singaporeans being exposed to alternative views, new points of critical thinking instead of being fed the OFFICIAL LINE of thoughts, the fear that their influence is diminished; when the use of FEAR - to grip the population in a MINDLESS and disciplined effort to progress in ONE SINGLE DIRECTION - is no longer effective.why must you drag someone else into our discussion, the other person has got nothing to do with it, if you have a score to settle with him, by all means go ahead but it's rather childish to keep dragging an outsider into our discussions. I know i do that to mau**13 sometimes, but his case was different, he kept being so nosy, i ignored his comments several times already but he kept pushing it, so i had to 'set him straight'..haha
If the characters of Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde exist, surely the good Doctor Mushroom and the Saffron Jekyl will be quite an entertainment in this Speaker's Corner.
Is it co-incidental that OM also felt persecuted by maurizio13 - in a similar way as you ?
We see the birth of Saffron in an anguished display of red torment in the other thread just as OM made his characteristic sly get away.You sound like the typical paranoid person i was talking about who lives in a big brother world. You seem to forget that there are those of us who don't care that much about politics, don't care for the gov enough to try to defend them and don't care about the opposition enough to support them. Like i said, i'm not that interested in talking about heavy politics, 'cos there's so much better things to do than to talk about politics. I don't take this forum too seriously, it's safe to say that there are others who don't really take it that seriously either, why should we? haha
If you do not take this forum too seriously, you have revealed your emotions in pitifully loud red in a simple political discussion that only centered on a simple interpretation of an economic term - "per capita income" and it revealed the dark depths of human stupidity. -
continuation
If "the purpose of those writing their 'brand' of politics is to make them feel better about themselves and it's ultimately self-serving" it only make us wonder what was the purpose of your emotional expresssion in loud red across several days ?If "those who write seem to forget about those who read their writing" - then what is the purpose of writing at all ?
Has any alternative views frightened anyone from expressing their own views and prevent anyone from writing what they really think ?
It is a fact that the Ruling Party aka the Government has allowed and encouraged the FEAR FACTOR of legal reprisal to persist in the minds of many Singaporeans, so as to prevent them from participating in POLITICS.
This undue pressure has prevent anyone from writing, and silencing anyone - more than the alternative views from those who dare to write aggressively and bravely with the RARE ORIGNALITY and REFRESHINGLY ALTERNATIVE WAY.
If at all, those who are standing on the side-lines, observing the verbal bouts between two sides, are encouraged to participate and take sides - according to their opinions on the points of arguments and hidden facts that have been suppressed, and being exposed to NEW and ORIGINAL THINKING towards the OFFICIAL LINE OF THOUGHT.
When OPINIONS are formed from ONLY ONE SOURCE, the chances of a SKEWED OUTCOME can only be greater.
The SKEWED OUTCOME can happen when skewed arguments persist in a stubborn fashion without responding to the points of arguments raised on one side. Those observing on the side-lines can form their own opinion as to who is the mad fool, who prefer to argue in a consistently skewed manner.The purpose of those writing their 'brand' of politics is to make them feel better about themselves and it's ultimately self-serving. The purpose of those who write and don't take things so seriously, well, it's just to have fun, sometimes poke fun at the ruling party, which i think it's much better than being too serious.
i think that if one is too die-hard in expressing their cause, ultimately their actions will backfire on them, 'cos people will be too scared or find it a waste of time to challenge those who hold very strong views. Those who are pro-pap dare not make themselves known, only a few i've seen here, this forum is skewed too much to the favour of anti-pap. And those anti-pap have created an ideal world for themselves here, oblivious to the fact that there may be some pap supporters reading their views.
Did you take yourself too seriously with yourself and forgotten your own Red Colored Printings that seemed to scream for attention to your own impotence ?
You should listen to your own advise about being too die-hard in expressing your cause - did this come as a result of your own lesson that ultimately your actions will backfire on yourself, as had been proven in the other thread - "SG top in foreign reserve per capita".
Even the prolific Robertteh has always looked forward to a thorough sparring with any Pro-Government supporter in this Speaker's Corner, as he had been locked out from their forum and blogs.
Are they not creating their own ideal world over at their websites ?
This is getting to be queer, as you make this statement -''those who are standing on the side-lines, observing the verbal bouts between two sides, are encouraged to participate and take sides?''That is partly true, they are encouraged to take only one side...haha Someone else had pointed out in a previous discussion that if people truly believe in freedom of speech, then they should allow both sides to talk, not asking for one of them to stop talking in this forum (the person who made this comment was not anti-pap). Even before i came along, someone else had pointed this out already.
Skewed outcome can also happen when those who share the same views outnumber those who share the alternative views and the majority of those who share the same views, try to 'silence' those who have the alternative views. Those who are die-hard anti-pap at the end of the day, are behaving like those pap in the gov whom they criticize.
"Those who are die-hard anti-pap at the end of the day, are behaving like those pap in the gov whom they criticize."
you begin to sound more like OM.
"Haha..just shows how feebleminded you lot are! You have no mind of your own, no spine of your own, no balls of your own. Unlike you, I dare to speak my mind, whether I agree or disagree with the ruling party.".
Try repeating your views to robberteh - about the majority attempting to silence the minority - . -
continuation
It seems that the one who is doing the blasting seems to be yourself - and in bold frustrating red - simply when you cannot hold up your end of the debate.How can you even hope to "know what those 'silent' people really think" - when you will believe that all those who will enter into a debate to write honestly and in a brave new way, are all attempting to silence those who prefer to remain silent. ?
It is obvious that the only one with the capacity to blast anyone can only come from the side that wields the POLITICAL POWER - and it is this FEAR FACTOR that has been purposefully perpetuated by the Ruling Party that has prevented anyone from participating in POLITICS.In this forum, i have seen both sides being blastered for their views, but those who are pro-pap get it a lot more. You guys may win by no of voices in this forum but not by no of 'silent' voices. There are many reasons why people choose to be 'silent' when it comes to political discussions and getting 'blastered' by those die hard anti-pap is one of the reasons. I had someone complain to me about this, so i'm not imagining things, it really is happening in this forum.
Is it not presumptious on your part, to express your own beliefs as that of the silent majority ?
For one who seems to have quite a few opinions expressed in the Speaker's Corner, and still will claim that "i don't get into those heavy politics", and for one who thinks it is a waste of time, you certainly know how to waste it here.What drives you to write in this forum - if you believe that "those who write their brand of politics only seem to be interested in their own writing and don't have much regard for those who read it" ?
If you believe that those who write in this forum are 3 year olds, and are not suitable to be exposed to the REALITY of POLITICS in this REAL WORLD, are you not being typically patronising - similar to PAPa.... and OM ?
After 40 over years of monopolistic grip to maintain the status quo, do we need to guess what will happen in the next election ?
With your persistent condescending manner in viewing Singaporean as being incapable to handle ALTERNATIVE OPINIONS, can we expect any healthier change to the existing SKEWED political development in Singapore ?What drives me to write? I write for fun i guess, i don't get into those heavy political discussions as i mentioned earlier, cos i think it's a waste of time. I didn't say that those who write in this forum are 3 yr olds, but if you think they are 3 yr olds, so be it. And if you are referring to 'mau**13', yes, i know i was harsh on him, but i think he was being really annoying and he deserved to have a taste of his own medicine.
about the papa poodle thing, i got suspicious, because i saw that the quality of his writing suddenly bear close resemblance to yours, so it gave me a good opportunity to mock the both of you....
pot calling the kettle black, you are pretty condescending yourself, in fact, it was your arrogant manner that drove me to challenge your views in the first place.
If you are not bothered, why allow yourself to be annoyed ?
No, you did not state that those who write in this forum are 3 yr olds.
Unfortunately, like your PAPa, your continued dishonesty reveal in your suggestive words used - that Singaporeans are 3 yr olds and incapable to discern or judge for themselves the issues that confront Singapore.
If your writings and thoughts are similar to your PAPa - and also OM - what does that make you out to be ? Seeing your capacity towards aggression, you can hardly be a poodle that will quietly obey your master, and your behaviour is at worst that of a pariah - as you have been so treated by quite a few others in this sgForum.
If you see me as arrogant, are you capable of taking me on - considering the hopelessly rabid frustrations shown in RED that surely revealed your impotence on a simple topic involving a simple interpretation about Per Capita INCOME ? -
I understand where you are coming from but there are some people out there who are anti just for the sake of being anti. You are only one of the voices of the mass population, many of those other voices would not even know that this forum even exists. let's not forget those who are among the mass population who voted for PAP.
you are right, i one of those mass population that doesnt have a chance to vote. me and friends grow up in environment that think PAP are clean, great something like the north korea. we go overseas study, started to have different perspective about how singapore should be. we hope our govt can have that " i say" " not our fault" , " we couldnt be wrong" mentality. listen and give what the ppl want instead of sending those post 65 MP to do hip hop dancing with young chaps and assume they know what our generation wants. Which has become laughing stocks in my circle of friends.
we dont object for the sake of object and we want changes to the system that the govt deem is " Not good" .
when we listen to parliament debate, i dont take long to analysis who is helping the ppl and who is not. increase GST to increase the salary of civil servant-- minister pay as well.
when will the hike in GST stop when minister earns 100 of millions a year? we peg our salary to the regional market but our minister and civil servant pay arent? we singaporean " aint stupid". if this goes on, i hope it wont be long before more credible singaporean will stand up and stand up to give singaporean a chance to vote.