Does this sound familiar reason to take our money?
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Originally posted by hloc:
What an idiot you are... I apologise for telling you the truth in such an uncouth manner... It is not the people's money than it is you great grandfather LKY's or P*P's money issit? What does it matter whether it comes from GST or HDB profiteering?
Please lah..... he even can't answer how much he think the Govt own him.... and how the hell he came out with the figure.
Would also like to ask [b]AndrewPKYap....... you kept repeating & repeating these words - "The people's money" - could you this time give an example, what people's money are you talkin about. Pls "Enlighten" me..... is it
a) Money from Income/company tax, GST...... etc
b) The money you put in as CPF
c) I don't know..... aka Dr Chee
d) example are...... (ur example)
It is hard to have a meaningful discussion when you can't even give example for your own point........ try again Ok....[/b]
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"no eyes to see"!!Originally posted by rane:What to do, they are on top so they do whatever they want!! Sigh!! Now with already well paid salary not enough and claimed that for don't know how many years, no salary increment now reviewing to adjust/increase pay. What crap !!!! Aiyo, want to increase increase lah just say all these to try to ease their conscience!! Taxpayers money they use!!!! "no eyes to see"!!
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My godOriginally posted by AndrewPKYap:What an idiot you are... I apologise for telling you the truth in such an uncouth manner... It is not the people's money than it is you great grandfather LKY's or P*P's money issit? What does it matter whether it comes from GST or HDB profiteering? 
You CAN'T EVEN ANSWER a), b), c) or d)
Unlike you, I Will answer your question after you've answered mine.
No.... not to worry, calling me 'Names' doesn't distress me in anyway.... but does prove that you are childish.... but again that is beside the point.
Like you, I'm trying to 'AWAKEN' you.... and I find the best way is by questioning that persons own thinking and then giving him/her a likely answer.
People who refuse to answer the question directly, tends to be close minded and refuse to see 'light' even in the day. Because seeing the 'light' meaned that they could be 'wrong'. They also tends to support their 'Theory' by going round & round the same argument...... And one of the sign of such a person is the way they dismiss any other theory that doesn't support his/her own thinking....... calling names or using sacarsm is just a way of of avoiding questioning Your own theory. Because if all who don't agree with you are fools, then you won't be wrong....... Indeed a "fully awake and aware" person you are.....
Hope to see your reply in the eveing..... going out. Thxs. -
"The People's Money" - ,money accumulated via GST, HDB mortages/sales, CPF, ERP, road tax, HDB mortgages/sales, COE, income tax, HDB mortgages/sales etc...
O and did I mention HDB mortgage and sales?
They're currently charging us many times over for it.. and it's only "ours" for less than one lifetime. Kids still have to pay and pay for another one when they grow up. -
Good answer...... at least you come out with an answerOriginally posted by spinsugar:"The People's Money" - ,money accumulated via GST, HDB mortages/sales, CPF, ERP, road tax, HDB mortgages/sales, COE, income tax, HDB mortgages/sales etc...
O and did I mention HDB mortgage and sales? They're currently charging us many times over for it.. and it's only "ours" for less than one lifetime. Kids still have to pay and pay for another one when they grow up.
Would you agree the following - money accumulated via GST, income tax, road tax as Taxes paid to the Govt
And the following - HDB mortages/sales (which you repeated 3 times), COE, ERP as sale tax.....
CPF is the best...... unless you can't collect your money when you turn 55. The money is still in the 'Bank'.... not 'taken'.
Not sure if you read from the beginning of the Thread.... but me & AndrewPKYap is having a 'debate' about what he deem as "the people's money"..... So, i wait for his reply. But your Answer is a good example that he should have given when I've asked the question...... would you mind to let him copy the answer....... so I could reply him. Thxs. -
Originally posted by hloc:
Go on without him...I am interested in ur ans......Doubt he would ever need to hear ur point of view since he is not the guy who will listen to other ppl point of views
Good answer...... at least you come out with an answer
Would you agree the following - [b]money accumulated via GST, income tax, road tax as Taxes paid to the Govt
And the following - HDB mortages/sales (which you repeated 3 times), COE, ERP as sale tax.....
CPF is the best...... unless you can't collect your money when you turn 55. The money is still in the 'Bank'.... not 'taken'.
Not sure if you read from the beginning of the Thread.... but me & AndrewPKYap is having a 'debate' about what he deem as "the people's money"..... So, i wait for his reply. But your Answer is a good example that he should have given when I've asked the question...... would you mind to let him copy the answer....... so I could reply him. Thxs. [/b] -
Hahaha.... you want me to kena flame againOriginally posted by Hamiltonian1125:Go on without him...I am interested in ur ans......Doubt he would ever need to hear ur point of view since he is not the guy who will listen to other ppl point of views
The Pocket Oxford Dictionary
Tax = Contribution to the State revenue legally levied on or on persons, porterty or business.
I believe that we are Tax inorder for the Govt to have money to provide - Police, the Armed Force, Fire department.... etc. All these service doesn't come 'cheap'...... Yes, I admit that the MONEY comes from the People. But in return, the people ain't charge anything when they report a crime. They are also not ask to pay up first before firefighter come to their burning porterty. Therefore it is already wrong for AndrewPKYap to claim that the Govt 'own' those MONEY to the people. We, like it or not, are paying a service charge (taxes) to the Govt for providing such service. It is money we own the Govt....... and I know a lot of ppl will be Piss.And the following - HDB mortages/sales (which you repeated 3 times), COE, ERP as sale tax.....
COE - collected by LTA to improve the Roads
ERP - like it or not, try to control the jam of the road.
Both of these taxes is taken to improve road service...... traffic lights maintanence, repair of roads....etc.
HDB mortages/sales - Nobody built house for you and don't want a profit.... tell me which bank don't charge you intrest when you take money from them. Just like we expect intrest when we put money into the bank.
Therefore again MONEY paid for service that was provided...... I, personally don't own a car or any motorcycle..... therefore, me pay no COE & ERP. I got free transport for SMRT because i worked for them...... Next, CPF
Is our CPF being used by the Govt for Investment or as some believed, personal use..... Of course got lah...... but as long as you could get your money back (with intrest) at the age of 55 or 62...... it is just like putting it into a fixed disposit...... can't touch until the time is up...... again where got take our money.... and may I add, it is my CPF that enable me to buy my own 4Room HDB..... without it, how the hell could I afford 32K for downpayment. Also medisafe paid 1.3K for my Ops last june......
The People's MONEY in my view, is the money companies like SIA, PSA etc (GLC)..... profits. Temasek as Govt investments arm, uses the money Govt collected as Taxes (remember that a service is given back) to make more MONEY by investing on - NeWater, Changi T3, PSA expand overseas, science & technology R&D etc..... Without these money, how could any Govt expand on its investment plan How could Changi remain on the top 10 best airport without these money.
Returning us the money is always good...... i like mine in cash But those MONEY don't really belong to us..... because in return we are protected by the police, army, SCDF..... even when we pay no tax. It is service charge.
AndrewPKYap some how believed that the Govt had 'Stolen' these MONEY from the people.... and must 'Return' it. But unless he is NOT protected by the police, army, SCDF...... how could he claim his money is taken away
All the above is my own point of view...... feel free to disagree. But in a civil way please. And also give example if you can. All of US are adults and I believe in supporting your RIGHTS to state your own views..... we can always - Agree to Disagree..... thxs. -
Originally posted by hloc:
I am pretty convinced... but maybe u should explain to Andrew about his claim on HDB 5 room flat should be 50k instead of 500k. Not all 5 room flat are 500k, I dunno if there is any, but my frens 5 roomie is abt 300k not 500k. If HDB 5 roomie is 50k, HDB gonna make a damn lost. Killing human business got ppl do, lose money business nobody do.....
COE - collected by LTA to improve the Roads
ERP - like it or not, try to control the jam of the road.
Both of these taxes is taken to improve road service...... traffic lights maintanence, repair of roads....etc.
HDB mortages/sales - Nobody built house for you and don't want a profit.... tell me which bank don't charge you intrest when you take money from them. [b]Just like we expect intrest when we put money into the bank.
Therefore again MONEY paid for service that was provided...... I, personally don't own a car or any motorcycle..... therefore, me pay no COE & ERP. I got free transport for SMRT because i worked for them...... Next, CPF
Is our CPF being used by the Govt for Investment or as some believed, personal use..... Of course got lah...... but as long as you could get your money back (with intrest) at the age of 55 or 62...... it is just like putting it into a fixed disposit...... can't touch until the time is up...... again where got take our money.... and may I add, it is my CPF that enable me to buy my own 4Room HDB..... without it, how the hell could I afford 32K for downpayment. Also medisafe paid 1.3K for my Ops last june......
The People's MONEY in my view, is the money companies like SIA, PSA etc (GLC)..... profits. Temasek as Govt investments arm, uses the money Govt collected as Taxes (remember that a service is given back) to make more MONEY by investing on - NeWater, Changi T3, PSA expand overseas, science & technology R&D etc..... Without these money, how could any Govt expand on its investment plan How could Changi remain on the top 10 best airport without these money.
Returning us the money is always good...... i like mine in cash But those MONEY don't really belong to us..... because in return we are protected by the police, army, SCDF..... even when we pay no tax. It is service charge.
AndrewPKYap some how believed that the Govt had 'Stolen' these MONEY from the people.... and must 'Return' it. But unless he is NOT protected by the police, army, SCDF...... how could he claim his money is taken away
All the above is my own point of view...... feel free to disagree. But in a civil way please. And also give example if you can. All of US are adults and I believe in supporting your RIGHTS to state your own views..... we can always - Agree to Disagree..... thxs.[/b] -
Hate to say this..... but Andrew have already made up his mind. I'm not here to 'Convinced' anyone. But here to claim my RIGHTS to free speech.Originally posted by Hamiltonian1125:I am pretty convinced... but maybe u should explain to Andrew about his claim on HDB 5 room flat should be 50k instead of 500k. Not all 5 room flat are 500k, I dunno if there is any, but my frens 5 roomie is abt 300k not 500k. If HDB 5 roomie is 50k, HDB gonna make a damn lost. Killing human business got ppl do, lose money business nobody do.....
Lets just say that if I buy my HDB at 200K then sell it at 400K...... do you think I would complaint But if I'm silly enough to buy a 5 room HDB at 500K, then expecting to make a profit of 200K.... is the Govt to blamed -
Originally posted by hloc:
Property Prices Rise at our expense
Hate to say this..... but Andrew have already made up his mind. I'm not here to '[b]Convinced' anyone. But here to claim my RIGHTS to free speech.
Lets just say that if I buy my HDB at 200K then sell it at 400K...... do you think I would complaint But if I'm silly enough to buy a 5 room HDB at 500K, then expecting to make a profit of 200K.... is the Govt to blamed [/b] -
Originally posted by spinsugar:"The People's Money" - ,money accumulated via GST, HDB mortages/sales, CPF, ERP, road tax, HDB mortgages/sales, COE, income tax, HDB mortgages/sales etc...
O and did I mention HDB mortgage and sales? They're currently charging us many times over for it.. and it's only "ours" for less than one lifetime. Kids still have to pay and pay for another one when they grow up. -
Answer By -Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Lets just say that if I buy my HDB at 200K then sell it at 400K...... do you think I would complaint
To all HDB buyers...... use your brain a bit. If you buy a house at super high price.... then of course you have a problem in making a profit. If 'Property Prices Rise' make your 100K HDB now worth 250K...... will you still complaint about the prices rise
I brought my 4room at Woodlands for about 116K. Not planning to sell because not marry and will have enough rooms even if married. Already housing agent say the HDB around my area is selling for 170K-190K. Still not planning to sell. Because common sense will tell me that you sell expensive, you'll buy also expensive. Therefore 'eat' into your profit. Then still have to start your loan all over again. Nobody is to blame but your own greed and lack of common sense .
The moral of the Story - Do your planning & homework properly before buying any property.... price goes up..... price goes down. No such thing as a confirm profit. Don't be greedy. -
Originally posted by hloc:
The moral of the Story - is P*P should stop taking the people's money and then tell them that it is for their own good and instead set up companies to invest it in "Shin Corps" so that they can pay themselves million dollar salaries while the people suffer.
The moral of the Story - [b]Do your planning & homework properly before buying any property.... price goes up..... price goes down. No such thing as a confirm profit. Don't be greedy.[/b] -
Have you even read my post on 'People's Money'....... the 7th on page 3Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:The moral of the Story - is P*P should stop taking the people's money and then tell them that it is for their own good and instead set up companies to invest it in "Shin Corps" so that they can pay themselves million dollar salaries while the people suffer. It explain what you deems as 'People's Money'....
Care to at least quote certain parts and then rebut them..... or iszit you can't support your own augrement
Let me guess - which I could be wrong - Are you one of those that kena 'burn' when the property you brought at Super High price during the mid 90s comes crashing down If you are...... them next time don't be too greedy. Nothing goes up and never comes down..... expect TAX & GST of course...... -
Originally posted by hloc:
so you are really chinese helicopter one hor? expect TAX & GST? no wonder you don't understand what I write and keep on asking the same questions over and over even after I have answered!
[b]expect TAX & GST of course...... [/b] -
I don't think we can call people greedy for wanting to make profits thru property. Afterall, buying property is a moderately stable form of investment, even though there is still some risk (variable). Some people sell their property and downgrade because their earning power has decreased unexpectedly - a common scenario with Singapore's poorly-protected middle class workers. Are they then being greedy?
Now, our govt is encouraging its people to be entrepeneurs (higher risk than property investment), so if these entrepeneurs fail, are they being very greedy?
I do not think our citizens are being greedy. We may complain alot, but if u look deeper most of us have no ill-intent - we're just asking for a decent quality of life for ourselves and our loved ones. We may expect alot, but who wouldn't when we pay our ministers highest in the world, while we are asked to be happy with salaries pegged to that of developing countries, all for the sake of "progress"? Progress for whom, might I ask, if the middle-class & below are worse off than before?
Greedy, I feel, is knocking down a priceless historical library to make way for a tunnel with an ERP gantry while the previous road was still adequate. Greedy is profiteering from double and triple charging of citizens for basic necessities. Greedy is taking, and not giving much back. Greedy is trying to pass a bill in Parliament which would grant unlimited access to our National Reserves. Greedy is trying to justify being the highest paid politicians in the world - what on earth do you need all that money for?
There is no perfect system, granted, but when there are visible cracks it's only right to fix it. We shouldn't just stand by and patronize people who fall through the cracks of a system we engineered. We listen to them. We learn. We improve the system and come up with a safety net to break their fall. We educate them. That's called evolving. We don't mislead by -for example- encouraging them to buy larger flats (something we did in the past), and then turn around and blame the people who listened to us! -
Like if I want to buy a 3rm flat from HDB... can I? No, my income is too high... what can I not buy a 3rm HDB? They say that it is because it is heavily subsidized. You believe them? read:Originally posted by spinsugar:I don't think we can call people greedy .......... mislead by -for example- encouraging them to buy larger flats (something we did in the past), and then turn around and blame the people who listened to us!
Public Housing - whose land is it anyway?
and why do they force you to buy big flats? The profiteering is so much more than the small flats.
What do they do with the money that the force you to pay them?
You got it, invest in SHIN CORPS and pay themselves million dollars salaries...
and why do they force you to buy big flats? -
Originally posted by spinsugar:
I don't think we can call people greedy for wanting to make profits thru property. Afterall, buying property is a moderately stable form of investment, even though there is still some risk (variable). Some people sell their property and downgrade because their earning power has decreased unexpectedly - a common scenario with Singapore's poorly-protected middle class workers. Are they then being greedy?
Now, our govt is encouraging its people to be entrepeneurs (higher risk than property investment), so if these entrepeneurs fail, are they being very greedy?
I do not think our citizens are being greedy. We may complain alot, but if u look deeper most of us have no ill-intent - we're just asking for a decent quality of life for ourselves and our loved ones. We may expect alot, but who wouldn't when we pay our ministers highest in the world, while we are asked to be happy with salaries pegged to that of [b]developing countries, all for the sake of "progress"? Progress for whom, might I ask, if the middle-class & below are worse off than before?
Greedy, I feel, is knocking down a priceless historical library to make way for a tunnel with an ERP gantry while the previous road was still adequate. Greedy is profiteering from double and triple charging of citizens for basic necessities. Greedy is taking, and not giving much back. Greedy is trying to pass a bill in Parliament which would grant unlimited access to our National Reserves. Greedy is trying to justify being the highest paid politicians in the world - what on earth do you need all that money for?
There is no perfect system, granted, but when there are visible cracks it's only right to fix it. We shouldn't just stand by and patronize people who fall through the cracks of a system we engineered. We listen to them. We learn. We improve the system and come up with a safety net to break their fall. We educate them. That's called evolving. We don't mislead by -for example- encouraging them to buy larger flats (something we did in the past), and then turn around and blame the people who listened to us![/b]
My friend.... I thank you for this Reasonable and Well written reply...... in it, you give good example to prove your points.... for that, I thank you.
Yes.... buying a HDB IS a form of investment..... and you, yourself agree that all Investment have its own risk..... therefore when the market 'crash'...... who is there to blame ?? The Invester.... or Govt again. If you make money from your Property...... would you still blame someone
Before I start working for SMRT, i also did a little business selling Western Food..... fail badly. Should I blame someone again for my failure..... No I didn't start a business because Govt told me so..... I did it in the thinking that I could make it........ there's no one to blame except my lousy Business sense or lack of sense. If you became an Entrepeneurs just because Govt told you so...... no wonder you failed. Be one only when you are ready and believe that you come do it..... NOT because Govt told you to
I agree with you 2 hands up in this section........ YES, our system is FAR from perfect...... YES, its need to be FIX. Which is why we are here to debate and see each others point of view...... I'm NOT here to SIDE the GOVT..... but I'm ALSO NOT here to put all blame on them. I just believe in 'Trying' to be fair to both side........ and 'Trying' is all i can do. Is Govt at fault..... sometimes. Is S'porean at fault..... sometime as well. There is a need to balance all this finger pointing because each side blaming each other will never solve any problem.......
Again would like to thank you for your reply. It is a breathe of fresh Air in this thread. Again feel free to disagree with me...... I don't think that I can't be wrong...... please point out any point you disagree..... in a civil way.... thxs. -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
Yeah.... I got C6 for English in my 'O' level.... Got E8 for Chinese.
so you are really chinese helicopter one hor? [b]expect TAX & GST? no wonder you don't understand what I write and keep on asking the same questions over and over even after I have answered! [/b]
So how...... again can't support your augrement (oops did i spell wrongly also) now make fun of ppls spelling inorder to prove you are better..... Try again lah.... find some example to give. Don't just nick-pick on spelling or grammer...... if I could have straight As in my "O' level, now already High Flier 'Elite'...... still need to stay in S'pore meh. -
Originally posted by hloc:still need to stay in S'pore meh.
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
That has not explained ur claim on why 5 room HDB flat should be 50k only.
Like if I want to buy a 3rm flat from HDB... can I? No, my income is too high... what can I not buy a 3rm HDB? They say that it is because it is heavily subsidized. You believe them? read:
Public Housing - whose land is it anyway?
[b]and why do they force you to buy big flats? The profiteering is so much more than the small flats.
What do they do with the money that the force you to pay them?
You got it, invest in SHIN CORPS and pay themselves million dollars salaries...
and why do they force you to buy big flats? [/b]
he land belongs to Singaporeans. The land belongs to the public. This is why it is called the "motherland". This is why people are willing to lay down their lives to fight for their "motherland".
True that the land belongs to Singaporeans but that does not mean U can have all the right to develop the land u want it to be. Isnt it the SAME for other countries where the govt has the final say in developing of the land? If everyone were to claim areas of land for themselves, CIVIL war will definitely start and that would be the end of Singapore.
You can build and charge less than the cost to build the flats using subsidies.
You can build and charge say 5% plus costs
You can build the flats and price it exorbitantly
Come on,to build and charge less than the cost??? How about U be the chairman of HDB and USE ur own money to build flats for others at subsidized rate...Hloc and I will immediately "hail" to ur generosity.
HDB is a company and it HAS to earn money. Have u ever think of their bad debts? Charging 5% is too dangerous and stupid for a company to do that.
Last point, price it exorbitantly do u exactly know what is the cost price of a flat? Do u know how much more expensive it is to own property in Japan?
In short, DO U HAVE FIGURES TO SUPPORT UR CLAIM?
Ur entire essay on "Whose land is it" is not well researched and no hard core proof to state ur claim. Words are cheap.....Of course u can re butt by saying figures are manipulated by govt, but can u show FIGURES from other countries of similar constraint as Singapore and make accurate statement instead of "flaunting" ur air of superiority and aura of "enlightenment" just because u have written a few essays( which is good in terms of Language) but utterly fails to prove ur point. -
Originally posted by Hamiltonian1125:
This part i agree the most...... I vote for anyone who could do this twice over. Just find me someone who could do it..... and I confirm vote for him....
Come on,to build and charge less than the cost??? How about U be the chairman of HDB and USE ur own money to build flats for others at subsidized rate...Hloc and I will immediately "hail" to ur generosity.
HDB is a company and it HAS to earn money. Have u ever think of their bad debts? Charging 5% is too dangerous and stupid for a company to do that.
Last point, [b]price it exorbitantly do u exactly know what is the cost price of a flat? Do u know how much more expensive it is to own property in Japan?
In short, DO U HAVE FIGURES TO SUPPORT UR CLAIM?
[/b]