Idealists and Pragmatists
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Idealists and Pragmatists
This debate over ministerial salaries- make no mistake about it, is a battle between the idealists and pragmatists of singapore. The pragmatists would like you to believe its jealousy- that weÂ’re just jealous because these people who governs us will make more in a month than some people will see in a lifetime. They believe that we, the ordinary people are jealous of their elite status, their wealth, their ability and the gilded priviledged lives that they live. This is what the PAP and the writers of Young PAP would have you believe. They are pragmatists through and through. How would they begin to even understand idealists. Ideals have no place in their world. Ideals donÂ’t put food on the table, ideals donÂ’t get you anywhere.
We idealists on the other hand believe that our leaders should not only be able, but also have a spirit of self sacrifice, a sense of duty to country, of honour, courage and above all to serve with humility. In short we want them to inspire us, to move us. We want to look up to them and aspire to be like them. When our leaders ask us to put nation before self, we ask them to lead us in action and not only in words.
The pragmatists on the other hand believes only in hard facts and figures. Of statistics, of background, of qualifications and of results. Ideals be damned. Look at the people that the PAP trots out every election, Lawyers, doctors, scholars and engineers. Who among them is a dreamer and idealist? Dreamers have no place in the world of their governance. Dreamers are impractical, given to flights of fancy and folly. How would they ever place the trust of the nation in their hands.
This is the battle between pragmatists and idealists in singapore everyday. And ideals is always fighting a losing battle. This is how singapore went from singapore to SINGAPORE Inc. This is how people go from citizens to economic units- little human batteries to power the great national economic engine. This is how parenthood is encouraged because we need them little human batteries. This is how the old national library has to be flatten to make way for a tunnel. A whole lifetime of memories for the people of a nation to make way for motorists so that they can save 5 measly minutes of travelling time.
5 minutes versus a whole lifetime.
Ideals are getting their ass kicked every single fucking day. This is how nature reserves are bulldozed and flatten to make way for rich people to play a little golf. This is SINGAPORE Inc, and ideals will be sacrificed on the altar of greed and materialism every day. -
Once upon a time, when Lee Kuan Yew came on television with tears in his eyes to announce the separation from malaysia, we saw an idealist. We saw someone who stood up for his beliefs and fought for them, consequences be damned. Where did that guy go? I wasnÂ’t even born when that happened, but IÂ’ve heard stories, stories that gave you goosebumps and get your heart pumping. Where are those stories now? What have we left to tell the future generations. Stories that will inspire them. Shall we tell them of stories of hip hop dancing MPs? Shall we tell them of stories of ministers who feels underpaid with $1.2 million? Shall we tell them of leaders that says do as I say and not do as I do?
Ideals die a little everyday in singapore. Ideals die, pragmatists rule. That is the law in SINGAPORE Inc. Pragmatist will say pragmatism has gotten us this far, why mess with something that works. Pragmatist will say we have to be practical, afterall, what is ideals but fuzzy wuzzy populist sentiments. Its messy, chaotic and ephemeral. Pragmatists laughs at us, dismisses us just like how Wee Shu Min dismisses Derek Wee once. Pragmatists believes in power, money, achievements and above all else, materialism. What have ideals begotten anyway?
And because pragmatism rules in singapore, the spirit of the people die a little everyday. Those that still wants to hold on to that little bit of idealism, they leave when they can. There is nothing to believe in singapore anymore. What is the singapore dream? What does singapore stand for? Money, power, greed, avariciousness and materialism? Who wants to die for that? Who wants to lay down their lives for that. People may fight for money, but people will not die for money. Money moves the body, but it doesnÂ’t move the spirit. -
When the people who gathered at the open field at the WP rally during the election and recited the national pledge, they were all idealists at the point of time. I wasnÂ’t there, but I bet you everyone of them felt a release, a soaring of the spirit that has been suppressed by pragmatism for far too long. But of course the very next day at the voting booth, pragmatism kicked ass again. Idealism be damned. We need our progress packages and upgrading goodies. Let idealism come out of its shell for a little breath and put in back in the bottle again.
I donÂ’t know, maybe we been down this path for so long we donÂ’t even know what is idealism anymore. Our government is the ultimate pragmatist. If the Borg assimilated the Vulcans, singapore is probably what you get. Idealism will have to make way for globalisation and economic progress- just like how the national library has to make way for the tunnel. Freedom and ideals is the price we pay for economic progress. Maybe SINGAPORE Inc will survive and prosper or maybe it wonÂ’t. I donÂ’t have the answers for afterall I am not a scholar, not some uber genius who scored 1,345 As in my A levels, so what do I know. All I know is my beliefs and ideals. Pragmatists will say, if you donÂ’t have the answers, shut the fuck up. Look it up, its part of the Bhavani Commandments. Shut up if you donÂ’t have the answers.
So the rich will get richer, the poor poorer. Pragmatist will say, this will spur people to greater achievements. Pragmatist will say, this will rouse people from their idealistic laziness. To be rich is to be glorious. Wealth has been elevated to a virtue. For what does the pragmatist say but that wealth is a deterent to corruption. Whereas once honesty and personal integrity was the safeguard, the pragmatist has reduced it all to a matter of dollar and cents. They will continue to find ways to solve society problems with money. ThereÂ’s no problem that is so big as to to be unsolveable with money. Somewhere along the time, our leaders has lost sight of the balance that is needed to built a progressive and matured society.
So when the salaries of ministers go up and they will. This will be the legacy we leave for future generations- let pragmatism triumph over idealism. Perhaps the enduring image of singapore will be one of SINGAPORE, Inc. Efficient, prosperous, cold, sterile and above all pragmatic. A place to work, but never to call home.
Pragmatism keeps you alive. Idealism makes you alive. Somewhere there has to be a balance. -
Leave pragmatism for the realm of international politics, and have a little more idealism for our home.
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There was never any question about it, if ideas do not exist then pragmatism in itself has no meaning, except mere survival. And without ideas life is just a mere ticking of a clock or a cog in the machine.
If pragmatism was the purpose, the most pragmatic thing for Singaporeans who had the means to do so to do would be to seek greener pastures and be a “quitter”.
In fact, the using the very terms “quitters” and “stayers” is an appeal to ideas- an idea that being a citizen of Singapore goes beyond pure economic and practical survival, that somehow if we are born here, something else that goes beyond pure survival ties us to this place.
What is a mystery to me is how this appeal to idealism is immediately tossed out of the window when the organization who proposed the ideas of “quitters” and “stayers” needs to confront other issues and suddenly it is all “bread and butter” with ideas takng a back seat. -
I believe something happened in between THEN and NOW.
And I believe it's TRANSMORGRIFICATION.
He, was transmorgrified...
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Singapore can have all the makings of utopia.
But ultimately, beneath it all, lies a nation who has lost its soul.
So sad.
So very sad. -
Ideologues can molder away in the ivory towers of academic institutions for all I care. For the prosperity and success of the nation, I want people of action. Write all the books and papers you want, but for the vast majority of Singaporeans, it is the continued economic success of the nation that matters. Look up the World Economic Forum's Global Competitiveness report. Singapore has been in the top 10 longer than many kids who rant in this forum.
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The 'pragmatist' in me tells me that the current govt is milking their parlimentary majority for whatever it is worth, and this is not a good example to be setting. In such a country where the opposition is keep as hungry as a starving dog (and beaten to make it very pissed off), the opposition will eventually come into power, and go crazily drunk with power and greed.... Imagine a starving child let loose in a candy shop. And I bet that the good opposition will liberally use the ISA against the losers too....
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It's very true. A nation without a soul. Even the National Day celebration seems empty and orchestrated. The more they try to add buzz to the scene here, the more it exposes our lack of soul. Just look at the Singapore River. What a sad state of affairs. It seems Singapore is only for FTs, and the average Singaporean seems bewildered by all the propaganda about the country's so called booming economy without really feeling they have benefited from it. It's going to be a very strange Singapore for the Singaporeans in years to come.Originally posted by charlize:Singapore can have all the makings of utopia.
But ultimately, beneath it all, lies a nation who has lost its soul.
So sad.
So very sad. -
How ironic that in denouncing ideologues you seem to be upholding one rather distinct one. Can anybody avoid ideas?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Ideologues can molder away in the ivory towers of academic institutions for all I care. For the prosperity and success of the nation, I want people of action. Write all the books and papers you want, but for the vast majority of Singaporeans, it is the continued economic success of the nation that matters. Look up the World Economic Forum's Global Competitiveness report. Singapore has been in the top 10 longer than many kids who rant in this forum.
Indeed if that was really true then Singapore does not need to really consider the issue of 'stayers' and 'quitters'. In fact nationality is purely mercenary if all things considered economic success was the primary purpose of nationhood.
There would be really nothing to tie people down to this little red dot, and all it exists for would be for all to come in, make the most cash, and head to wherever suits one the best, no strings attached.
At that point can we even call Singapore a nation anymore? I think most sensible people will defer.
Is 66.6% considered a vast majority of Singaporeans who desire economic success?
More imporantly, has economic success been achieved at a heavy price?
But I'm not surprised you show such dislain for ideas... given you apparently see no use for a soul, and are perfectly happy to sell it. -
Ultimately we all know where the path of "bread and butter" leads. Not to greater things, but ultimately to even more "bread and butter".
You always start with ideas, before your causes can be considered worthy. -
You have just demonstrated how you have been imprisoned by your concept of nationhood and your inability to think out of the box.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:How ironic that in denouncing ideologues you seem to be upholding one rather distinct one. Can anybody avoid ideas?
Indeed if that was really true then Singapore does not need to really consider the issue of 'stayers' and 'quitters'. In fact nationality is purely mercenary if all things considered economic success was the primary purpose of nationhood.
There would be really nothing to tie people down to this little red dot, and all it exists for would be for all to come in, make the most cash, and head to wherever suits one the best, no strings attached.
At that point can we even call Singapore a nation anymore? I think most sensible people will defer.
Is 66.6% considered a vast majority of Singaporeans who desire economic success?
More imporantly, has economic success been achieved at a heavy price?
But I'm not surprised you show such dislain for ideas... given you apparently see no use for a soul, and are perfectly happy to sell it.
It has been more than a decade since academics in a think-tank considered this very same issue and concluded that Singapore could do worse than getting rid of the traditional, outmoded concept of nationhood. Singapore's prosperity can be better assured if we become a global city where nationality means little. We attract the wealthiest, most innovative, most skilled and best minds of the world to come and make Singapore the base to increase their wealth and in so doing, ours as well.
I am open to all ideas, conservative or otherwise. But as a pragmatist, I support whichever brings prosperity and success for the nation. That means there is never an absolute right or wrong policy for all time...circumstances change. FT or locals, left or right leaning...it does not matter as the best person is selected. It does not matter if it is a black or white cat.....you know the rest.
If 66.6% of Singaporeans that gave more than 90% of parliamentary seats to the government is not a vast majority, do the voices in the wilderness here in these forums constitute the majority then? -
If indeed nationality is of little, could you explain what reasons do Singaporeans have to justify their continued existence in Singapore? Even the US who has one of the most open arms approach to foreign immigrants, more so than even Singapore, Americans take far greater pride in what they are as Americans and nationality means much.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:You have just demonstrated how you have been imprisoned by your concept of nationhood and your inability to think out of the box.
It has been more than a decade since academics in a think-tank considered this very same issue and concluded that Singapore could do worse than getting rid of the traditional, outmoded concept of nationhood. Singapore's prosperity can be better assured if we become a global city where nationality means little. We attract the wealthiest, most innovative, most skilled and best minds of the world to come and make Singapore the base to increase their wealth and in so doing, ours as well.
I am open to all ideas, conservative or otherwise. But as a pragmatist, I support whichever brings prosperity and success for the nation. That means there is never an absolute right or wrong policy for all time...circumstances change. FT or locals, left or right leaning...it does not matter as the best person is selected. It does not matter if it is a black or white cat.....you know the rest.
If 66.6% of Singaporeans that gave more than 90% of parliamentary seats to the government is not a vast majority, do the voices in the wilderness here in these forums constitute the majority then?
While you talk about nationality meaning little, you then go on to say that you wish to support the Nation's success. Nationality is the glue of the nation and you fail to understand the concept, since you then go on to display pride in the nation. So you belittle the man on the street who loves his country and stamp on his rights since you think it expedient to do so. His rights mean nothing since ultimately, they do not benefit the nation. Either this blatant hypocrisy, or you are just more interested in dollar signs than the poor man who is relegated to bottom rungs of society by circumstance and that you would prefer rather that such men do not exist. If that is the case, dispense with the charade and go grab so Nazi logos. Abolish democracy since it is EXPEDIENT to do so. Fine words just to cloud the people's minds.
Ridiculous. There is nothing worth loving in this country isn't it? After all, it is just a flag and a piece of rock. Let's all migrate. Since there is little pride to be taken in this country. -
Idealists > The people of Singapore... they are expected to live a good life on $2000 a month and cope with GST increases
Pragmatists > They are the people that need $2.2 million to suppress their urge to become corrupted -
U got study history b4.....?
"Revolution" will take place when there's corruption in gov.... be it under table or openly declared salaries... coz they happens in different era...
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Lies perpetuated by the Govt who clothe themselves in fine words to obscure the vision of the people who are also too stupid to recognise lies when it is presented.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Idealists > The people of Singapore... they are expected to live a good life on $2000 a month and cope with GST increases
Pragmatists > They are the people that need $2.2 million to suppress their urge to become corrupted
In any electorate, 85-90% are sheep, and the remainder are either the people at the top exploiting the sheep or know that there is something very screwed but can't do anything about it.
Singapore be damned. Let the country burn. -
U know I would not use the term pramagtics vs idealist? Because i think u really need both. so can we change the subject to narrow discussion.
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It is therefore contradictory that our ministers have repeatedly preached for Singaporeans to 'think out of the box', only to end up belittling those who leave for better prospects, labelling them as quitters?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:You have just demonstrated how you have been imprisoned by your concept of nationhood and your inability to think out of the box.
It has been more than a decade since academics in a think-tank considered this very same issue and concluded that Singapore could do worse than getting rid of the traditional, outmoded concept of nationhood. Singapore's prosperity can be better assured if we become a global city where nationality means little. We attract the wealthiest, most innovative, most skilled and best minds of the world to come and make Singapore the base to increase their wealth and in so doing, ours as well.
I am open to all ideas, conservative or otherwise. But as a pragmatist, I support whichever brings prosperity and success for the nation. That means there is never an absolute right or wrong policy for all time...circumstances change. FT or locals, left or right leaning...it does not matter as the best person is selected. It does not matter if it is a black or white cat.....you know the rest.
If 66.6% of Singaporeans that gave more than 90% of parliamentary seats to the government is not a vast majority, do the voices in the wilderness here in these forums constitute the majority then?
What use is attracting the 'wealthest' and most skilled to boost our economic status, if we lose our indigenous best to foreign talent? Our government has already admitted this flaw, and are scurrying around in some brave attempt to fix the problem. Does our govt therefore believe our 'nationality to mean little'? Are you a little backdated? Or simply misinformed?
If contribution in our govt's sense, is simply the task of making money, surely those who emigrate to other countries in search of a better life, forsaking their red passport, are truly the ones thinking 'out of the box'?
Are you not one who is already plying his trade in a foreign country? All you have shown is a pragmatic scorn for people who want the country to be better. -
Wow I wanted to reply to OM, but it looks like he kenna arty bombard until nothing left in objective but craters liao...
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If 66.6% of Singaporeans that gave more than 90% of parliamentary seats to the government is not a vast majority, do the voices in the wilderness here in these forums constitute the majority then?
If you bought something that was going at 50%, and then it turned out that it was 50% of 200%... would that be a fair deal?
But of course I'd expected you to think that way. Is the current parliamentary representation truly representative of the voice of ALL Singaporeans?
Yawn, the numbers do not lie. And the bigger number in this case is 66.6%, which represents what Singaporeans really think. -
There are those who fail to see the merits of idealism working hand in hand with neo-realism. Can't see where they would find a place in a more evolved society.
Perhaps they do not see the ramifications and the sheer irony of their hard pursuit of pragmatism, which is another ideology in itself. Based on this, a smattering of other ideals will prove to be the lesser "evil" in their eyes, but only if they can see it.
A Singapore that exists on the basis of a rotating-door policy can be described as a nation in name, but not in spirit. What's the use of unfettered, named sovereignty when the soul of the nation is withered away and replaced with Insta-Worker©, where the alternative is a less statist sovereign state with a stronger innate Singaporean identity.
To go for the former is fairly simple, the latter, is a real challenge. Perhaps someone is insinuating that Singaporeans are not up for it, and are but dunces? How patronising. -
Dichotomy seems to be something in fashion these days. The above is merely hope and presumption, something even our favoured indices will not be able to predict.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:You have just demonstrated how you have been imprisoned by your concept of nationhood and your inability to think out of the box.
It has been more than a decade since academics in a think-tank considered this very same issue and concluded that Singapore could do worse than getting rid of the traditional, outmoded concept of nationhood. Singapore's prosperity can be better assured if we become a global city where nationality means little. We attract the wealthiest, most innovative, most skilled and best minds of the world to come and make Singapore the base to increase their wealth and in so doing, ours as well.
I am open to all ideas, conservative or otherwise. But as a pragmatist, I support whichever brings prosperity and success for the nation. That means there is never an absolute right or wrong policy for all time...circumstances change. FT or locals, left or right leaning...it does not matter as the best person is selected. It does not matter if it is a black or white cat.....you know the rest.
If 66.6% of Singaporeans that gave more than 90% of parliamentary seats to the government is not a vast majority, do the voices in the wilderness here in these forums constitute the majority then?
Your last paragraph shifts so much from your initial leanings that it's none too credible as a concluding statement to back up your argument. -
Hey,
He said something about inspire. Not everyone can inspire. I have to go thru leaders course at BMT. BY then, I shall become super good leaders. I shall be nurture by the best out of the best. Wish me luck. In doing this
Regards Hudax -
well, we all do what we can, right?Originally posted by hudax1:Hey,
He said something about inspire. Not everyone can inspire. I have to go thru leaders course at BMT. BY then, I shall become super good leaders. I shall be nurture by the best out of the best. Wish me luck. In doing this
Regards Hudax