You seriously got to be kidding me!
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Originally posted by octet707:Well some fourmites here talk about the lost of a few billions in investments being nothing to the government but heres a question any idea how much profits GICs create for Singapore annually? Is there any investor in the world who never had any failed investments before? I believe as long as the long term returns r there short term losses must be accepted. Its all part of investment.
So you know how much profit is created annually? Do you also know where exactly our GICs invest? Given that any listed company the world over is accountable to her stakeholders, what more a country to her citizens.
Oh n about LKY's point that the salaries of ministers need to be raised in order to remain competitive, i feel that its reasonable. Well how many people are that noble to put in alot more effort relative to his achievable income.
Based on this sentence of yours, it suffices as a sad day for patriotism here in S'pore. Wonder how many more think like you.
Singapore is small. True we need to attact such noble people to the govt but with a population of 3m how many of such people exist in Singapore ? Theres has also been comments that the civil servants r no longer as motivated and effective as before, perhaps the salary could be attributed to it. Majority of the population who are taking up posts in the govt now or in the future have lived the life of a developed country citizen. Just like you or me. There couldnt be as much leaders as in the past who are fuelled by the desire for country even at the expense of monentary incentives.
So tell me this cannot, that cannot, so how ?
Why not share a more effective solution
Money is the only solution to attract talents? Not necessarily. The education system must be revamped. More emphasis on character building and nationalism rather than paper chase. But then again, that's not up to me to say.
Lastly, money lessens a politician's patriotic desire. Just like how monetary rewards attract donations but corrupt the purity of charity. -
Are they TALENTS???
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Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong makes the claim that the PAP Government performs so well that he and his ministers must be paid salaries that most Singaporeans find outrageous and unacceptable. Here's some facts and figures on what the PAP does for (some people argue, to) the people.
7,340 households were not able to pay their utility bills as of Sept 2005. (Channel News Asia, 20 Sep 05)
31,570 Singaporeans sought financial aid from the government in 2003. This was an increase of 40 percent from 2002 where 22,500 people sought assistance and 120 percent from 2001 (14,300). (Straits Times, 29 Jan 05)
17,000 families or individuals sought help from Family Service Centres due mainly to retrenchment and debt problems in 2003 - up 32 percent from 2002. (Straits Times, Jan 3, 2005)
37,823 households could not afford to buy their own flats or rent homes as of the end of 2004. (Straits Times, 29 Jan 05)
18 divorces take place on average in Singapore every single day in 2003! In 1993 there were only 2,313 divorces, in 2003 there were 6,561 cases - an increase of 180 percent. (http://www.getforme.com/previous2004/240704_statisticsondivorces2003.htm)
22,540 This is the number of un-discharged bankrupts as of August 2005 (Straits Times, 7 Nov 05)
150,000 credit cards were in default as of the end of 2003. (Straits Times, 7 Nov 05)
46 percent. This was the increase in the number of young people below 35 who were issued writs for overdue debt - from 5,019 in 2000 to 7,328 in 2003. (The New Paper, 24 Sep 03)
21,434 Singaporeans went bankrupt as of 31 December 2004 - the highest in Singapore's history. (Straits Times, 19 Jan 05) 4,190 people were made bankrupt in the first 11 months of 2004 - the highest number in 19 years. (Straits Times, 5 Jan 05)
1 Singaporean commits suicide everyday on the average. (AFP, 8 Sep 03)
70 percent of those who commit suicide in Singapore are between 20 and 49 years of age. They kill themselves mainly because of "financial commitments, having stress at work, caring for the elderly and the children at home." (AFP, 8 Sep 03)
1,692 dollars is the average monthly retirement income an average retired Singaporean will have – one of the lowest among 15 countries (including Australia, Canada, USA, Spain, Italy, Hong Kong and Japan) surveyed by AXA Insurance Group. Canada ranked first with $4,216. Yet, Singaporeans contribute the most to savings plans, that is, the CPF. (Today, 25 Feb 05)
85 percent of elderly Singaporeans feel that their lives would be worse five years down the road. This is up by 14 percent in 2000. (Today, 21 Jun 05)
54 percent of nearly 3,000 laid-off workers in the first quarter of 2004 were aged 40 and above. Those of you who are younger better think about this: 53 percent of Singapore's workforce will be 40 or older in five years' time. (The Star, 27 Feb 05)
14,000 children were seen by psychiatrists at the Institute of Mental Health, of which 2,233 were new cases. (Straits Times, Apr 02) -
Hanor.
Ministers more interested in narrowing the gap between their salaries and the private sector than the poor-rich income gap of Singaporeans.
Haiz.
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Originally posted by VivId CrItiQuE:Compare Singapore wif our neighbours, in the past decades, who grew the most? If u do not attribute that to good governance, what do u attribute it to? Perhaps u would like to haf one of our neighbours as ur government? Maybe we will be more prosperous ya?
if ur not capable enuff, stop blaming the government about ur poverty, blame it on ur lack of brains and hardwork. Singapore's economy is moulded in such a way that if u use ur brains and is willing to work hard, u will succeed. Look at the pple earning few hundred K annually, do u see them complaining about the government?
Why is your perspective so simple? Any developed country in the world has poor people. Is it because they choose to? There are many educated individuals in S'pore but are stuck in the middle class. So just because one uses his brains and works hard, he can climb the ladder easily?
Every social system has a hierachy to fill. So then what would the govt do to help this lower class of people? Increase their own salaries or work out long term solutions to help them?
if u think that ur capable enuff and u realli hate the government so much, den go ahead and migrate, singapore doesn't need whiny pple like u!!!
Don't speak with such immaturity. S'pore is where many of us grew up. We will fight and defend the land when need be. No need for such naive speak here. -
You obviously equate talent with paper qualifications. That's not necessarily true. Yes it's important but it won't be the deciding factor in a person's aptitude to run a country.Originally posted by VivId CrItiQuE:if ur saying that talented pple wif passion will serve the country even when they're lowly paid, howcome i dun see talented pple joining the opposition? afraid of losing? lets see, if u get an opposition GRC made up of grads who returned from MIT, Harvard, etc, y wouldn't singaporeans vote for them? the fact is opposition is made up of mostly(not all) pple wif poor credentials, thats y they keep losing. n y are there so few talents joining the opposition? makes me wonder..
but anyway.. i'm sick of all that argument, its going nowhere.. if the government is realli tt bad, go ahead and vote for the opposition when the next election comes. if the government gets a strong mandate again, it juz shows that ur still the minority.
It's true that opposition has been the laughing stock for many years but if you look at the recent election, it's already been improving. Check out WP. I can't say the same for the rest. Opposition is in the state it's in all these years....no thanks to the govt for putting fear into voters, press censorship, limited coverage and continuos ridicule.
And govt's votes are not mandates. There are so many civil servants out there who are afraid to vote against their "employer". SAF, HDB, EDB, MOE, WDA etc etc.....a lot of our lives are under the govt's scrutiny. Not to mention prospective HDB flat buyers who are afraid of voting against the govt for fear of reprisals.
Think about it. It's not a mandate, it's a joke to me. -
No it shows that their terrorize opposition till most able people dont dare to step forward strategy worked.Originally posted by VivId CrItiQuE:if ur saying that talented pple wif passion will serve the country even when they're lowly paid, howcome i dun see talented pple joining the opposition? afraid of losing? lets see, if u get an opposition GRC made up of grads who returned from MIT, Harvard, etc, y wouldn't singaporeans vote for them? the fact is opposition is made up of mostly(not all) pple wif poor credentials, thats y they keep losing. n y are there so few talents joining the opposition? makes me wonder..
but anyway.. i'm sick of all that argument, its going nowhere.. if the government is realli tt bad, go ahead and vote for the opposition when the next election comes. if the government gets a strong mandate again, it juz shows that ur still the minority.
The calculated plan is to bankrupt strong oppositions like Francis Seow and Jeyreratnam, Tang Liang Hong (note all are lawyers) such that the people have no choice but to vote for them...
Add all the gerry mendering and being held hostage to upgrading and media control. If they give up all these tactics, do you think they would still win the elections? -
i presume what u said here is directed to what i mentioned.Originally posted by VivId CrItiQuE:if ur saying that talented pple wif passion will serve the country even when they're lowly paid, howcome i dun see talented pple joining the opposition? afraid of losing? lets see, if u get an opposition GRC made up of grads who returned from MIT, Harvard, etc, y wouldn't singaporeans vote for them? the fact is opposition is made up of mostly(not all) pple wif poor credentials, thats y they keep losing. n y are there so few talents joining the opposition? makes me wonder..
but anyway.. i'm sick of all that argument, its going nowhere.. if the government is realli tt bad, go ahead and vote for the opposition when the next election comes. if the government gets a strong mandate again, it juz shows that ur still the minority.
I did not said that a person with passion will serve the country despite being paid the current salary. He might be in it for different reasons: fame, recognition or the prestige of the job.
I do not know why most Singaporeans do not want to vote for the opposition. However, I can safely tell u this that Singaporeans do not vote for the PAP because they graduate from Harvard. I believe its the policies of each party that determines who win. Now i am sure u are going to tell me that PAP have sound policies that why they win. True enough some of their visions are appealing but i did not hear them telling me that if they are in power they are going to raise their own salaries or the GST.
I am sure that i never said that the government is bad. It is just that i am not agreeable with some of the policies they make. Didn't the gov encourage discussion of policies.
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Policies like no upgrading if your are in the opposition wards?Originally posted by NewAge:I do not know why most Singaporeans do not want to vote for the opposition. However, I can safely tell u this that Singaporeans do not vote for the PAP because they graduate from Harvard. I believe its the policies of each party that determines who win.
Few good opposition after seeing so many capable people being bankrupted? -
Like what my father say, u are only good if u can work within the system.Originally posted by kilua:Policies like no upgrading if your are in the opposition wards?
Few good opposition after seeing so many capable people being bankrupted? -
Originally posted by VivId CrItiQuE:
Francis Seow teaches at Harvard.
if ur saying that talented pple wif passion will serve the country even when they're lowly paid, howcome i dun see talented pple joining the opposition? afraid of losing? lets see, if u get an opposition GRC made up of grads who returned from MIT, Harvard, etc, y wouldn't singaporeans vote for them? the fact is opposition is made up of mostly(not all) pple wif poor credentials, thats y they keep losing. n y are there so few talents joining the opposition? makes me wonder..
but anyway.. i'm sick of all that argument, its going nowhere.. if the government is realli tt bad, go ahead and vote for the opposition when the next election comes. if the government gets a strong mandate again, it juz shows that ur still the minority. -
I don't know if you're plain stupid or just downright naive, really. For a start, how many of those from the ruling party actually has a degree from MIT or Harvard to begin with?Originally posted by VivId CrItiQuE:if ur saying that talented pple wif passion will serve the country even when they're lowly paid, howcome i dun see talented pple joining the opposition? afraid of losing? lets see, if u get an opposition GRC made up of grads who returned from MIT, Harvard, etc, y wouldn't singaporeans vote for them? the fact is opposition is made up of mostly(not all) pple wif poor credentials, thats y they keep losing. n y are there so few talents joining the opposition? makes me wonder..
but anyway.. i'm sick of all that argument, its going nowhere.. if the government is realli tt bad, go ahead and vote for the opposition when the next election comes. if the government gets a strong mandate again, it juz shows that ur still the minority.
It's equally amazing for you to equate excellent political leadership exclusively with one's educational background - Ghenghis Khan, Napoleon Bonaparte, Adolf Hitler and Harry Truman are just some of what you'd consider "incapable" of political leadership if their educational background is anything to go by, but are you telling me these are people who have not been able to lead their masses?
If what you churn out is remotely believable, I suppose the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is, by far and beyond question, the most democratic and efficient country on the planet given the lack of opposition. -
That's the problem with our govt.
They have an elitist attitude. They send all the wrong signals to the young.
Everything is about money, grades, degree.
Others can throw away.
I have spoken to several young PAPs. Exactly what you would expect from elites. Arrogant, noisy, thinks a lot of themselves, no sympathy to the poor.
The worst was, in the past, LKY would tell you to shut up, he knows better.
The new generation of PAPs like to PRETEND they know the pains of the people, and then politely reject suggestions by us. That's worse than LKY, that's hypocrites. -
How about this suggestion? The ministers go live in bungalows or whatever they like. But the places are not given to them such that if they no longer serve as Ministers, they won't get to keep those houses. Of course, some other benefits may apply such as cars.
So, all these Ministers can live like rich people only while they are still Ministers. And they should be paid the mode income or something for their wage. To feel how most Singaporeeans would feel. Isn't that enough incentive for any true Singaporeans to serve the country? A true countryman will only live for what he needs and care for the lives of his countrymates. I doubt it's not enough. A politician equates to richness?? A country is not a corporation where all is judged by economic performance. There are still standards of living that need to be accountable. Cost of living perhaps? Standard of living anyone?
If anyone is into politics for the money, go fly kite man! Correct me if I'm wrong. George Washington did not have any formal education. His offered pay was $25,000/year which he refused back then. So, why all these talks about pay rise? $2.7m is not enough?? Maybe the rest are paid less but i'm sure it's much more than what we, me included, the poors, earn.
Anyway, here's a story of Prophet Muhammad. He lead his own people and preached about the teachings of Islam. But for all of his worth and value back in his time, he slept on a mat and lead a simple life. Was he corrupted?
Well... It all lies in the heart. To dangle monetary incentives to make these "top grade" ministers stay uncorrupted is an insult to their pride. It's like as if what they earn is too little that they have to resort to bribes to feed their families.
What have the ministers done these days anyway? If the money is for the people behind the rebuilding of Singapore back in the 1960s, i'm fine with that. Cos they have done so much for us. But for the current batch of ministers, what they did is just to set the timer and ensure that the food in the microwaves doesn't go wrong. How hard can it be when there's instruction manuals everywhere? Advisers and analysts exist everywhere that they can rely upon.
It's just up to these ministers to think what it's right or wrong for the people. The question is are they thinking with their job at stake or are they thinking with the people heavily in mind? Any idiot can run a country as simple as Singapore. With all the Yes and Yes and Yes. The point is who is the one working harder for the nation. We, the people or them, the ministers? Think about it. They are clever to initiate a pay rise for themselves and we are stupid not to deny them.
Heh.. Sorry if you find any flaws in here, i've just finished school and am just a kid. but seriously, i'm all for the opposition once they can make some senses. in my opinion, what we have here are political parties with lame pitches. what's with the money dangling before election and upgrading of estates for those in favour? Still dare to ask for pay rise. Stop acting democratic cos what we, the people, gonna say will have no power anyway. The ministers will still get their pay rise no matter what we gonna say. Sorry for the naggy post. -
They have decided to implement it even before they debate in parliament. (Read in CNA).
What a stupid system, only our democracy is like that.
One word for it: WAYANG....
No wonder a minister's job is a sound one because no one dares raise any vehement objection. -
Their job is the most secure job in the world:
1. All mistakes are honest no matter how major, so no penalty if make a mistake
2. A lot of people to run errands for them
3. High pay, with low risk
Reasoning that I heard once from the govt is that talent is limited in Singapore, so we cannot penalize these 'talents' if they make a mistake, thus they can still stay on their jobs.
Try making a major mistake when you are a CEO/Fund Manager/Lawyer/Doctor/Banker and see what happens to you. Possible Consequences are - Lose job, Lose reputation, Lose money in lawsuits, Go to jail.
You guys who support the govt STILL DON'T GET IT, don't you?
A highly paid job comes with all the risks. That is PRECISELY WHY the person is so highly paid. One major mistake, and the person will be sacrificed to the mob. -
There is this minister, called Mah Bow Tan (maybe I spell his name wrongly, not that I really care), whom said that Singaporeans should live in smaller and smaller space, so HDB is building smaller and smaller flats.
And you know where he is staying? A big lavish bungalow.
How's that for a person who don't practise what he preaches? -
If you ask me, I say these aren't leaders....Originally posted by soul_rage:Their job is the most secure job in the world:
1. All mistakes are honest no matter how major, so no penalty if make a mistake
2. A lot of people to run errands for them
3. High pay, with low risk
Reasoning that I heard once from the govt is that talent is limited in Singapore, so we cannot penalize these 'talents' if they make a mistake, thus they can still stay on their jobs.
Try making a major mistake when you are a CEO/Fund Manager/Lawyer/Doctor/Banker and see what happens to you. Possible Consequences are - Lose job, Lose reputation, Lose money in lawsuits, Go to jail.
You guys who support the govt STILL DON'T GET IT, don't you?
A highly paid job comes with all the risks. That is PRECISELY WHY the person is so highly paid. One major mistake, and the person will be sacrificed to the mob.
They act and do things more like Mafias... -
Actually you are rightOriginally posted by ShutterBug:If you ask me, I say these aren't leaders....
They act and do things more like Mafias...
Reminds me of collection of protection fee. You have no say in how much to be paid. This is determined by them. -
What a hypocrite!Originally posted by soul_rage:There is this minister, called Mah Bow Tan (maybe I spell his name wrongly, not that I really care), whom said that Singaporeans should live in smaller and smaller space, so HDB is building smaller and smaller flats.
And you know where he is staying? A big lavish bungalow.
How's that for a person who don't practise what he preaches?
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All these information should be shown on the government websites...Originally posted by ShutterBug:Are they TALENTS???
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Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong makes the claim that the PAP Government performs so well that he and his ministers must be paid salaries that most Singaporeans find outrageous and unacceptable. Here's some facts and figures on what the PAP does for (some people argue, to) the people.
7,340 households were not able to pay their utility bills as of Sept 2005. (Channel News Asia, 20 Sep 05)
31,570 Singaporeans sought financial aid from the government in 2003. This was an increase of 40 percent from 2002 where 22,500 people sought assistance and 120 percent from 2001 (14,300). (Straits Times, 29 Jan 05)
17,000 families or individuals sought help from Family Service Centres due mainly to retrenchment and debt problems in 2003 - up 32 percent from 2002. (Straits Times, Jan 3, 2005)
37,823 households could not afford to buy their own flats or rent homes as of the end of 2004. (Straits Times, 29 Jan 05)
18 divorces take place on average in Singapore every single day in 2003! In 1993 there were only 2,313 divorces, in 2003 there were 6,561 cases - an increase of 180 percent. (http://www.getforme.com/previous2004/240704_statisticsondivorces2003.htm)
22,540 This is the number of un-discharged bankrupts as of August 2005 (Straits Times, 7 Nov 05)
150,000 credit cards were in default as of the end of 2003. (Straits Times, 7 Nov 05)
46 percent. This was the increase in the number of young people below 35 who were issued writs for overdue debt - from 5,019 in 2000 to 7,328 in 2003. (The New Paper, 24 Sep 03)
21,434 Singaporeans went bankrupt as of 31 December 2004 - the highest in Singapore's history. (Straits Times, 19 Jan 05) 4,190 people were made bankrupt in the first 11 months of 2004 - the highest number in 19 years. (Straits Times, 5 Jan 05)
1 Singaporean commits suicide everyday on the average. (AFP, 8 Sep 03)
70 percent of those who commit suicide in Singapore are between 20 and 49 years of age. They kill themselves mainly because of "financial commitments, having stress at work, caring for the elderly and the children at home." (AFP, 8 Sep 03)
1,692 dollars is the average monthly retirement income an average retired Singaporean will have – one of the lowest among 15 countries (including Australia, Canada, USA, Spain, Italy, Hong Kong and Japan) surveyed by AXA Insurance Group. Canada ranked first with $4,216. Yet, Singaporeans contribute the most to savings plans, that is, the CPF. (Today, 25 Feb 05)
85 percent of elderly Singaporeans feel that their lives would be worse five years down the road. This is up by 14 percent in 2000. (Today, 21 Jun 05)
54 percent of nearly 3,000 laid-off workers in the first quarter of 2004 were aged 40 and above. Those of you who are younger better think about this: 53 percent of Singapore's workforce will be 40 or older in five years' time. (The Star, 27 Feb 05)
14,000 children were seen by psychiatrists at the Institute of Mental Health, of which 2,233 were new cases. (Straits Times, Apr 02)
WELCOME TO THE DARK SIDE! -
It's like transport ministers who say that we can squeeze more people into the MRTs and buses when they themselves don't take public transport.Originally posted by (human):What a hypocrite!
It's like labour ministers who say that workers should not have minimum wages and must compete with foreign workers when they themselves get paid million dollar salaries and have iron rice bowls.
Such are the realities of life in Singapore. -
welcome to singapore baby!Originally posted by charlize:It's like transport ministers who say that we can squeeze more people into the MRTs and buses when they themselves don't take public transport.
It's like labour ministers who say that workers should not have minimum wages and must compete with foreign workers when they themselves get paid million dollar salaries and have iron rice bowls.
Such are the realities of life in Singapore. -
Anyone have the facts and figures of past CEO losses in investment and being sack?
Since our elite minister like to compare themselves with CEO of MNC, after Suzhou, Shincorp etc, lets see how many times have their ass been sacked. -
LOL was talking with my mum over the phone (I'm now overseas) and I asked her about the latest development over the minister's pay raise, guess what, even she, a die hard PAP fan was pissed.
I hope for once, 66.6% of Singaporeans will wake up and see who are the real tyrants... who are the ones who constantly think of their own pockets only.
MONEY FACED GOVERNMENT! -
Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:
What talking u?
LOL was talking with my mum over the phone (I'm now overseas) and I asked her about the latest development over the minister's pay raise, guess what, even she, a die hard PAP fan was pissed.
I hope for once, 66.6% of Singaporeans will wake up and see who are the real tyrants... who are the ones who constantly think of their own pockets only.
[b]MONEY FACED GOVERNMENT![/b]
It will all be forgotten in the 2011 elections. Ur mum will too.