meritocracy and equality
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How can the desperately poor get out of their own death-cycle without any proper help? Do you think all of them are the blame-everybody and do nothing type?
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Correction. The current system favours the rich a lot more because the rich hold all the levers. The rich, short of a shareholder revolt, can simply feed themselves with very generous pay packages. Even if the said CEO or what doesn't perform well, he is still given a very generous renumeration package. It is the same with this Govt. Regardless what happens, the said minister gets paid extremely well, and even if he doesn't perform well and gets kicked off, he gets kicked off to some GLC and still paid very well.Originally posted by hardyhall:Why do you look towards Sociology scholars for answers about what to think? I say again, you control your destiny and nobody else. Whoever says otherwise is just offloading responsibility onto others.
You always have a choice what to think & what to be influenced by. If you choose to think you are being oppressed & thumbed down, well I have good news for you - that my friend will become your reality. Simple as that!
The rich folks don't bother themselves or waste their time thinking about poverty - so they get caught in an upward spiral i.e. the rich get richer
The poor on the other hand think of nothing else but their sorry state of affairs & how others are stomping on them - hence they accelerate their death spiral.
Now do you need a sociology scholar to put it any simply?
Conversely, even if you are some rich man's son and you aren't performing well in the Singapore education system, you have the option of being sent off to an overseas school where things are of a slower pace and you perform better. Or maybe you have cash for tuition and what not. You immediately have that crutch.
However, if you are poor, unless you are academically brilliant enough to make it through the education system, you are down to two choices: Suck it up and go to Normal stream and be relegated to the bottom rungs of society or start a business which will then return to the question of finding the money to start up a business and the odds of that happening are quite low, and well, how you might advance up the social ladder has a small probability.
When everything hinges on academic ability, and given that not all humans are gifted with the art of studying, you naturally have a class barrier and it is more acute in a country like ours.
I would then add, that there seems to be a pervading sense among the elite that poor people are there because "it is their fault" and that is dangerous. One should recall history where the 16-19th century was a time where there was a great amount of debate over class and that cumulated with the French Revolution where a monarch was disposed by open revolt. Class divides are seeds of such violent revolutions. Just saying it is "their fault" does not help anything except drive people into desperation with this unequal wealth redistribution.
Further couple this with a very very palpable lack of support for charities among the rich in Singapore, it isn't very very difficult to see the poor getting disenchanted with the political system. Philanthropy is simply rarely seen in Singapore. The notion of giving something back to society seems to have disappeared entirely. Whereas in the past you might find it, you can't now. And this is disappointing. -
I acknowledge the examples you gave, but your anger towards the "elite" or the "haves" is preventing you from getting the underlying message. The message, my friend, is how much the rich have or don't have should not be a concern for you. Instead of occupying your mind with thoughts that they are all out to screw you, lift yourself up and create your own destiny, blaze your own path, overcome your own obstacles. Blaming others for your problems weakens your resolve to break out of your rut because you are saying to yourself that you are not responsible & your failure is due to the fault of others.
I really don't know how to put it any simpler. These are Universal truths that are known to leaders, managers & all successful men. If you don't see it, put your anger aside & really think about what I said. You guys are intelligent people but are temporarily sidetracked by all the info available on the net. -
With respect SingaporeTyrannosaur, have you actually spoken or interacted with a desperately poor person? I ask this cos I want to know what you felt was the person's state of mind & how was he able to communicate with you & how you were able to feel or understand his desperation.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:How can the desperately poor get out of their own death-cycle without any proper help? Do you think all of them are the blame-everybody and do nothing type?
I liken this situation to a Fund Manager coming onto CNBC to plug his hot stock picks but in the background, his kakis are selling the stock like crazy.
Watch their actions - not what they say. -
My message then is that it is "easier said than done". The odds against you as a poor man in Singapore are near insurmountable UNLESS you are brilliant academically or have incredible amount of luck. The problem is not because one has some inferiority complex but rather the fact that society is working against you and hindering your ability to move upwards. It doesn't help that society itself is forcing you to stick to certain pathways that it deems that only you can take.Originally posted by hardyhall:I acknowledge the examples you gave, but your anger towards the "elite" or the "haves" is preventing you from getting the underlying message. The message, my friend, is how much the rich have or don't have should not be a concern for you. Instead of occupying your mind with thoughts that they are all out to screw you, lift yourself up and create your own destiny, blaze your own path, overcome your own obstacles. Blaming others for your problems weakens your resolve to break out of your rut because you are saying to yourself that you are not responsible & your failure is due to the fault of others.
I really don't know how to put it any simpler. These are Universal truths that are known to leaders, managers & all successful men. If you don't see it, put your anger aside & really think about what I said. You guys are intelligent people but are temporarily sidetracked by all the info available on the net.
Essentially, this is a "winner takes all, and a looser takes none" society. This is the unfortunate truth of it all and something that our Govt consistently pretends that it doesn't exist.
Personally I do understand what you say and agree. But there are a number of underlying assumptions that you make here which I disagree with. You assume that 1. that anyone, with enough determination can make it to the top and that there are no social factors that are working against you. 2. You assume that truths are universal. No. Truth is more often than not, more grey than white or even black. Societal factors tend to come into play, never mind culture although there are some cultures that seem to support a regressive behaviour rather than a progressive one. -
hey hardyball,Originally posted by hardyhall:Its your choice, bro....its simply a matter of choosing to forgive, let go & get on with your life. I know many of you have become jaded and disillusioned by all the happenings. It takes great courage to say "screw it" and create your own destiny.
The world has so many possibilities for you to do great things. Seize the opportunity guys!
Best wishes to all....
I do not blindly reject and object to your opinions and or healthy outlook with regards to living it up under our current government's hardball policies. I know that some of us CAN positively do what you have been advocating, but there's a large pool of people, whose sand-castles are constantly being washed away by our government's habbit of uppping living costs and their own salaries, along with other financially stiffling policies!!!
There are a lot of people, who cannot afford to even think of WORLD OPPORTUNITIES when their immediate daily survival here is at best hand-to-mouth...
It is good, if one's current skill-set and financial backing can accomodate World Opportunities, otherwise when a person grows old they'll be cealning toilets and clearing tables in food courts instead of playing with grandchildren! -
You are mistaken that one has complete control over your destiny. May i cite an example..Originally posted by hardyhall:Why do you look towards Sociology scholars for answers about what to think? I say again, you control your destiny and nobody else. Whoever says otherwise is just offloading responsibility onto others.
First of all to control you destiny some requirements are needed.
1.Monetary resource
2. Skill in a particular domain
One does not control destiny because one desires to. Perhaps the right question to ask is, if there are 2 poor person in two different countries, who has a better chance of succeeding?
For example for a person who is poor is Taiwan, he has better control over his destiny because he can go to the streets set up a street stalls and earn his living even though he may not be good in studies. This allow him to avoid expensive overheads and and use the money to grow a bigger business, and also provide a better future for the children. Even when a person grows old, the barrier to start a new b.usiness is low. The old folks in Taiwan do not have to sell tissues or work as cleaners to make a living
On the other hand, Singapore has a system that practices "educational merritocracy" If you are able to obtained good qualification, you can control your destiny.
My question to you is, do you think the old people who cannot setup stores to sell in the streets like Taiwanese and have to sell tissues or work as cleaners to make a living, how would they control their destiny? They are always stuck in meeting day to day needs, too tired, too little savings.
Hope to hear solution from your ivory tower
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I taught my son how to swim when he was 5. We started in the shallow pool & when he could float & swim for quite a bit, I took him to the big olympic size pool. He took one look at it & took a few steps back. He was overwhelmed. He started saying that it was too far, too deep, too many people & what not. Any excuse under the sun. The kicker was when he knew I'd have none of it, he sheepishly pointed to the deep side & said "there be monsters there". Now I've known him since he was a baby & I can spot a white lie from him from a mile away.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:My message then is that it is "easier said than done". The odds against you as a poor man in Singapore are near insurmountable UNLESS you are brilliant academically or have incredible amount of luck. The problem is not because one has some inferiority complex but rather the fact that society is working against you and hindering your ability to move upwards. It doesn't help that society itself is forcing you to stick to certain pathways that it deems that only you can take.
I showed him how on the other side of the pool there were children like him (some even younger) swimming laps. He slowly got into the pool, swam for 5-10 metres and started gasping. I held on to him & brought him to the side. He continued like this a few more times & by the next day, he could swim the whole lap himself. 2-3 days later, he told daddy not to follow him anymore as he joined the other kids at the other side of the pool.
If you think something is insurmountable, then that becomes your reality. It is not some "Anthony Robbins mind guru crap" but a universal truth. No excuse you can come up with will ever change that. -
Have you spoken to any of these people or are these just anecdotes you picked up from the net. If you have I would like to know what you thought was their frame of mind, psyche etc. Watch their actions....not what they say.Originally posted by kilua:You are mistaken that one has complete control over your destiny. May i cite an example..
First of all to control you destiny some requirements are needed.
1.Monetary resource
2. Skill in a particular domain
One does not control destiny because one desires to. Perhaps the right question to ask is, if there are 2 poor person in two different countries, who has a better chance of succeeding?
For example for a person who is poor is Taiwan, he has better control over his destiny because he can go to the streets set up a street stalls and earn his living even though he may not be good in studies. This allow him to avoid expensive overheads and and use the money to grow a bigger business, and also provide a better future for the children. Even when a person grows old, the barrier to start a new b.usiness is low. The old folks in Taiwan do not have to sell tissues or work as cleaners to make a living
On the other hand, Singapore has a system that practices "educational merritocracy" If you are able to obtained good qualification, you can control your destiny.
My question to you is, do you think the old people who cannot setup stores to sell in the streets like Taiwanese and have to sell tissues or work as cleaners to make a living, how would they control their destiny? They are always stuck in meeting day to day needs, too tired, too little savings.
Hope to hear solution from your ivory tower
Now off to polish my Ivory Tower.... -
Yes i have spoken to them before .... They are only planning to meet their daily needs.... You a psychologist? let me know when ya are done polishing yourOriginally posted by hardyhall:Have you spoken to any of these people or are these just anecdotes you picked up from the net. If you have I would like to know what you thought was their frame of mind, psyche etc. Watch their actions....not what they say.
Now off to polish my Ivory Tower....
ivory tower ? -
You son not the very strong type leh... me at 5 years old already have a 500m swimming certificate from pesta sukanOriginally posted by hardyhall:I taught my son how to swim when he was 5. We started in the shallow pool & when he could float & swim for quite a bit, I took him to the big olympic size pool. He took one look at it & took a few steps back. He was overwhelmed. He started saying that it was too far, too deep, too many people & what not. Any excuse under the sun. The kicker was when he knew I'd have none of it, he sheepishly pointed to the deep side & said "there be monsters there". Now I've known him since he was a baby & I can spot a white lie from him from a mile away.
I showed him how on the other side of the pool there were children like him (some even younger) swimming laps. He slowly got into the pool, swam for 5-10 metres and started gasping. I held on to him & brought him to the side. He continued like this a few more times & by the next day, he could swim the whole lap himself. 2-3 days later, he told daddy not to follow him anymore as he joined the other kids at the other side of the pool.
If you think something is insurmountable, then that becomes your reality. It is not some "Anthony Robbins mind guru crap" but a universal truth. No excuse you can come up with will ever change that. -
Then all i have to say to you is that you are easily conned & gullible...wait a minute, I may have some Tulips I can sell to youOriginally posted by kilua:Yes i have spoken to them before .... They are only planning to meet their daily needs.... You a psychologist? let me know when ya are done polishing your
ivory tower ? -
You are avoiding the question. Since you say control your destiny, what advice do you have for the old people that are still working as cleaners or selling tissues...Originally posted by hardyhall:Then all i have to say to you is that you are easily conned & gullible...wait a minute, I may have some Tulips I can sell to you
How can they control their destiny? Coz if you can solve it, then the PAP wouldnt be having so much problem... probably recommend you to be the next minister as well -
This question you are posing is a joke. Because if according to what hardyhall says, the elderly and people selling tissues etc. are like that because they deserve it.Originally posted by kilua:You are avoiding the question. Since you say control your destiny, what advice do you have for the old people that are still working as cleaners or selling tissues...
How can they control their destiny? Coz if you can solve it, then the PAP wouldnt be having so much problem... probably recommend you to be the next minister as well -
I'm not avoiding answering your question. I just communicated with you how you communicated with me, by trying to be a smart ass.Originally posted by kilua:You are avoiding the question.
Guys, look here. I'm not against the poor or underprivileged & I will not, for an instant, hesitate to help another human being in need. You will not believe how poor my family was.
My point is look beyond your grievances with the establishment and think thru what is the psyche of a person who is downtrodden. That is why I asked you what did you think about the desperate person's frame of mind. Their minds are so full of negativity & hopelessness that they are unable to lift themselves out of their situation. When you talk to some of these people, they literally suck the lifeforce out of you with their negativity.
When I read the original post, I heard a cry for help and lo & behold, I quickly realised that some of you here are on a dangerous course towards poverty due to your flawed thinking & finger pointing mentality. This, gentlemen, is a surefire way to destroy your life. The future for Singapore and the world is so bright! If you, as a well educated & intelligent person, cannot see this, seriously ask yourself why. Where have you gone wrong. What can you do to see this future materialise.
Our dear leaders definitely know about all this but it would be political suicide for them to come out and say in an insensitive manner that "poor people deserve it". Just look at the outcry that the "elite" blogger created. The Singapore public in general is not ready for this kind of shift in thinking although people around the world have known it for ages. In Singapore, the blame game is well & alive & very few are willing to take responsibility for their actions & skewed thinking. Blaming the bogeyman is so easy & "in"...
I truly wish all of you the best and hopefully you can see the future as brightly as I can.
PS - I hope someone finds this book useful. Bill Gates was said to have read it & he immediately dropped out of college to start Microsoft. The book surfaced in Silicon Valley in the 80s & many who followed its principles became tech giants. Link -
You assume too much. If indeed all difficulties can be overcome, there won't be such terms as "proverty cycles". It is all fine and dandy to say that one could overcome all the problems in the world and reach the top, but that is based on the assumption of an ideal world which does not exist! You just gave an example of a task that was humanly possible to overcome, but in life, there are many things where one would face his/her limitations and in a society like ours that places too much on academic achievement to advance upwards. If one cannot achieve well academically, one is then reduced to finding some low end jobs that hardly pay well just to survive. Never mind trying to set up a family. Just getting a job and retaining it will be a challenge that is enough to sap one's energies.Originally posted by hardyhall:I taught my son how to swim when he was 5. We started in the shallow pool & when he could float & swim for quite a bit, I took him to the big olympic size pool. He took one look at it & took a few steps back. He was overwhelmed. He started saying that it was too far, too deep, too many people & what not. Any excuse under the sun. The kicker was when he knew I'd have none of it, he sheepishly pointed to the deep side & said "there be monsters there". Now I've known him since he was a baby & I can spot a white lie from him from a mile away.
I showed him how on the other side of the pool there were children like him (some even younger) swimming laps. He slowly got into the pool, swam for 5-10 metres and started gasping. I held on to him & brought him to the side. He continued like this a few more times & by the next day, he could swim the whole lap himself. 2-3 days later, he told daddy not to follow him anymore as he joined the other kids at the other side of the pool.
If you think something is insurmountable, then that becomes your reality. It is not some "Anthony Robbins mind guru crap" but a universal truth. No excuse you can come up with will ever change that. -
Well, okay then. Good Luck!Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:You assume too much. If indeed all difficulties can be overcome, there won't be such terms as "proverty cycles". It is all fine and dandy to say that one could overcome all the problems in the world and reach the top, but that is based on the assumption of an ideal world which does not exist! You just gave an example of a task that was humanly possible to overcome, but in life, there are many things where one would face his/her limitations and in a society like ours that places too much on academic achievement to advance upwards. If one cannot achieve well academically, one is then reduced to finding some low end jobs that hardly pay well just to survive. Never mind trying to set up a family. Just getting a job and retaining it will be a challenge that is enough to sap one's energies. -
Hey, I dont disagree with all your points. The person must help himself first.Originally posted by hardyhall:My point is look beyond your grievances with the establishment and think thru what is the psyche of a person who is downtrodden. That is why I asked you what did you think about the desperate person's frame of mind. Their minds are so full of negativity & hopelessness that they are unable to lift themselves out of their situation. When you talk to some of these people, they literally suck the lifeforce out of you with their negativity.
When I read the original post, I heard a cry for help and lo & behold, I quickly realised that some of you here are on a dangerous course towards poverty due to your flawed thinking & finger pointing mentality. This, gentlemen, is a surefire way to destroy your life. The future for Singapore and the world is so bright! If you, as a well educated & intelligent person, cannot see this, seriously ask yourself why. Where have you gone wrong. What can you do to see this future materialise.
Link
But i see the problem is that PAP authoritarian style sucks the life out of Singapore. Dont you see there is an important question to address? Do most of the developed countries in Asia have their old people being cleaners and selling tissue? Dont you think thats something that disturbs you?
And the way you were yelling control your destiny, you seem oblivious that not everyone has 1) money or 2) possess a good skill. Imagine if you were born poor and for some reason didnt had a chance to get a good education, which country is better to get out of poverty? Singapore or Taiwan?
Thats has been my question. I see Taiwan as a more meritocratic country than Singapore. The reason is this - The poor and uneducated have a better chance at success at life. They can work hard and sell their ware in streets which give them a source of income. They can work hard and see their efforts paid off more easily.
Another reason is because Taiwan is developed in many areas, which gives people with different talents to succeed. In Singapore, we have the dumb sports school that would have denied Fandi Ahmad because his educational qualification is not good enough. There is no end to these dumb elitist policies..
In case, you are still polishing your Ivory Tower wondering why there is so much dissent on the Internet, thats because of PAP's authoritarian style and control of the press. -
I am currently running my own business, all I can say is this...
THE RICH CAN AFFORD TO FAIL SEVERAL TIMES, BUT ALL IT TAKES TO BREAK THE POOR IS JUST ONE WRONG DECISION. -
actually it's true, one needs to fight for his own destiny despite the odds blah,blah. but it's so hard to do so here in Singapore.
In national service now. see all the well-to-do guys downgrading their PES with their expensive medical specialists backing them then becoming clerks while driving to camp everyday. the rest of the combat fit guys lan lan have to stay on cos need the $$. tmd the clerks leisurely drive in and slack all day while we chiong and do fatigue work
I live in a poor neighbourhood. wouldn't be kidding if I say half the senior citizens here compete for abandoned stuff like newspapers and cardboard to sell for $$. That's a side of Singapore we SHOULD show to the world. -
This is the side of Singapore that gets swept under the carpet by our gov all the time...!!Originally posted by crimson soldier:actually it's true, one needs to fight for his own destiny despite the odds blah,blah. but it's so hard to do so here in Singapore.
In national service now. see all the well-to-do guys downgrading their PES with their expensive medical specialists backing them then becoming clerks while driving to camp everyday. the rest of the combat fit guys lan lan have to stay on cos need the $$. tmd the clerks leisurely drive in and slack all day while we chiong and do fatigue work
I live in a poor neighbourhood. wouldn't be kidding if I say half the senior citizens here compete for abandoned stuff like newspapers and cardboard to sell for $$. That's a side of Singapore we SHOULD show to the world. -
Just my 2 cents.
There are indeed two slippery slopes that one might see from the dialog:
1. the first slippery slope is that there will be people who can conveniently use the govt or whatever as their crutch (being the word of the day) or excuse to just wallow and not work their way up ie. use their own determination etc.
This position assumes firstly that the people have the wherewithal to do it (i.e. innate intelligence, skills) and that the innate potential "fits" into the existing rules.
2. the other slippery slope is that the elite, the policy makers etc can continue to blame the "poor" people for being lazy without relooking at current practices.
While it is important to be objective and pragmatic, the govt has the understand that it hands-all-over manner of governing and managing the country AND the economy has severe repercussions for the growth and development of the people.
The second slippery slope that many in this dialog have pointed is more salient, IMHO, than the first which is what hardhall was trying to push hard on. Why?
In academic terms, Anthony Giddens, Bourdieu and a bunch of other European sociologist have long pointed to the power of structures over human agency and actions. Albeit humans have its ability to influence and mold structures, structures and the inherent values have powerful consequences over human actions as well. They refer to this as the duality of structures i.e. they are created by and yet at the same time recreate by influencing human actions.
in our case, the all encompassing structures imposed by the government in all areas of our lives be it in education, economy, even sports does and will have powerful influences on all levels of society, especially those in the lower rungs. That, I think is what many of the contributors are pointing to in their various vignettes. Regardless of what hardhall thinks - ie. actions and not speech, there are enough evidence - go talk to social workers, go talk to primary school kids in neighbourhood schools - to show that it is not easy (though not impossible) to break out from these cycles.
The government's role can therefore be:
1. To listen closely and rethink and relook at all issues and continue with their tinkering. This decision however will be continually plagued by grievances - simply because they are not omnipotent. Theory and practice in both societies and business have shown that there will be always unintended consequences. This is inevitable due to the complexities of issues at hand. Unlike financial market management where transactions can be reduced to numbers and dealt with alogrithms, governance inexplicably involves human emotions, thoughts, aspirations and actions. This requires ongoing actions to keep things moving on an even keel.
2. The other option is to adopt a cultivation approach and this requires a major shift in govt mindset i.e. a less hands on approach. This approach recognizes the failings of human cognitions and rationality. This approach accepts that inevitable unintended consequences will arise. However, this approach takes a bottom up view and intervenes to cultivate the growth. It is analogous to growing plants. You can cultivate it (to the extreme would be bonsai planting) knowing that the plant has an innate life force with its ability to thrive with or without your intervention. Yet your interventions while at the one hand may not aid terribly in its growth can have severe ill repercussions that will either hinder or in the worse case destroy the plant and its growth. Because of this understanding, a govt will use kid's gloves to handle the ongoing interventions that it introduces and not slipshodly try to bulldoze its way onto the country that it tries to govern. This is probably in line with Catherine Lim's point to the govt i.e. mind the affective gap.
Sorry for the long post but this is something that is close to my heart. -
I agree with Fingolfin...
In respect to Hardhall's eg. the point is that your son has you to guide and to push. Microsoft's Bill Gates was not a nobody, he was in an Ivy league institution. He had access to books such as the Hill's book (mind over your state inspiration stuff). But you never knew how he had the lucky break from the Big Blue - which was a big monolithic bureaucratic org. suffused with its own success, hubris and ignoring a new trend of microcomputers and PCs (hmmm... sounds oddly familiar in our local context).
The thing is once you are not in the "correct" path, it is very very difficult in Singapore. This is not to say that it is not so in other countries. I am in the US presently, and I can say that they suffer in some respect the same problems. There is the widening income gap etc. However, being a larger economy as well as a less controlled economy, the number and types of "correct" paths are definitely much more than SG. The US and other countries recognize this and hence there is deliberate attempts to assist and help those in these cycles. The problem in Singapore is sometimes this urgency to extol our number 1-ness and try to sweep the less becoming aspects of our society underneath some gigantic rug (aka one room flats). We ignore and give less to these people who need it more. One sad but clear cut e.g. is in the way our MOE provide resources for the special ed schools. If you know, the deaf school is housed in very old premises (I believe it is the old Cresent Girl's school), the school for other disabled and challenged people are housed in other old premises down in Toh Tuck behind the Bukit Timah market. On the other hand, they have tons of money to spend on NUS High School (fiber optics to the premises). It is not that we should begrudge money to the more able and intelligent but that the poorer and less able should have at least similar access to our society's resources.
Anywho... these are some of key social issues, we should be debating about rather than clamoring for pay increases and further hikes. Frankly, the whole issue of economic challenges is passe and a bloody truism. Who isn't challenged in this global competitive arena. China and India are already outsourcing stuff to Africa (China is one of biggest investors in African states btw, so stop thinking that they are just good for manufacturing and other outsourcing biz). The govt should get on with it and do their job.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:You assume too much. If indeed all difficulties can be overcome, there won't be such terms as "proverty cycles". It is all fine and dandy to say that one could overcome all the problems in the world and reach the top, but that is based on the assumption of an ideal world which does not exist! You just gave an example of a task that was humanly possible to overcome, but in life, there are many things where one would face his/her limitations and in a society like ours that places too much on academic achievement to advance upwards. If one cannot achieve well academically, one is then reduced to finding some low end jobs that hardly pay well just to survive. Never mind trying to set up a family. Just getting a job and retaining it will be a challenge that is enough to sap one's energies.