Consolidation of all topics related to Ministers' Pay
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Originally posted by CannotTahan:
What the heck are you talking about? What do you mean by "decoupling"? How is a rise in residential property prices a good thing? As it is, many people are in debt as it is just to live in a flat. With so much debt, it isn't a surprise that population growth is low, and people even consider migrating.
The world has changed since our independence. Money flows at lightning speed today. The ability to attract and "hold" the money is an achievement. These monies do not belong to Singaporeans. So you dont see them going to our pockets. What it does bring is employment and higher salaries, of course first in the banking sector. By doing this, we are de-coupling from China and India's competition. The immediate impact is the private residential properties, first in the prime districts, because foreign monies already bought. The longer term impact is continuing climbing residential property prices including HDB , year after year. What do you prefer? Certainly a HDB flat worth about the same as a private apartment in London in the future.[b][/b]
ANd just how does the money come to our pockets? What jobs? Most jobs end up in foreigners. Are the jobs good? The financial sector is a different ball game from the rest of the industries, and by no means are the jobs we are getting of the high end variety. Glorified technicians do not get good pay in the long run. -
first, debt will diminish with rising property prices and salaries. second, the banking sector will hire more and become more important than other industries, so technician or technician's children have to be educated appropriately for the jobs. third, and in addition, i came across a singaporean scholar studying in London uni at the fore front of bio-medical scientific methods ie many good things are going on in the background. fourth, where can you emigrate to? you probably have not seen slaves' living conditions in developed countries. fifth, please refrain from using "heck" lar, I am sharing my info and opinions only what.
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This is part of my opinion alsoOriginally posted by CannotTahan:first, debt will diminish with rising property prices and salaries.
Pls support your reasoning. Rising salary? some rises as little as $20 per YEAR!!
second, the banking sector will hire more and become more important than other industries, so technician or technician's children have to be educated appropriately for the jobs. ANy stats to show?
third, and in addition, i came across a singaporean scholar studying in London uni at the fore front of bio-medical scientific methods ie many good things are going on in the background. as you said SCHOLAR
fourth, where can you emigrate to? you probably have not seen slaves' living conditions in developed countries. Then descibe WHAT you SAW
fifth, please refrain from using "heck" lar, I am sharing my info and opinions only what.
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1) Can explain how debt will diminish with rising property prices and salaries, and secondly are salaries in Singapore actually rising, or is that only a phenomenon that happens only to the elites?Originally posted by CannotTahan:first, debt will diminish with rising property prices and salaries. second, the banking sector will hire more and become more important than other industries, so technician or technician's children have to be educated appropriately for the jobs. third, and in addition, i came across a singaporean scholar studying in London uni at the fore front of bio-medical scientific methods ie many good things are going on in the background. fourth, where can you emigrate to? you probably have not seen slaves' living conditions in developed countries. fifth, please refrain from using "heck" lar, I am sharing my info and opinions only what.
2) Relying totalling on the banking sector sounds very very dangerous. Banking sector within Singapore or?
3) In other countries you might or might not call them slaves. Some of them have more rights than us. Call them the needy and poor, but not slaves. -
Excuse me? Rising property prices? Debt? Do you even understand what you are writing? And are salaries rising? Would you provide the statistics to back that up or is MOM too closed mouthed about it as usual?Originally posted by CannotTahan:first, debt will diminish with rising property prices and salaries. second, the banking sector will hire more and become more important than other industries, so technician or technician's children have to be educated appropriately for the jobs. third, and in addition, i came across a singaporean scholar studying in London uni at the fore front of bio-medical scientific methods ie many good things are going on in the background. fourth, where can you emigrate to? you probably have not seen slaves' living conditions in developed countries. fifth, please refrain from using "heck" lar, I am sharing my info and opinions only what.
And bank sector jobs are reserved for the extremely well skilled and you probably won't qualify. Not least these jobs are pretty exclusive and hard to come by. How does that contribute to anything beyond giving tax revenue to the Govt. I don't even know what kind of logic you are using saying that it will help some technician who won't get an ounce of benefit from this beyond whatever the Govt doles out at its sufference.
And biomed? It's one thing to say good things are going on in the field but it's another to capitalise on the the discovery. As it is, there is no mechanism to harness and take advantage of it, not least Pharmaceutical companies will only bother to develop the drug only if they have full rights to it. Obviously someone in the civil service isn't doing any thinking.
And finally, you are some ignorant dote to think that the west is some barbaric place. If you are going to provide intelligent remarks fine. Else, I will use whatever language I so please to damn any stupid remarks. -
what is your profession, or are you just a student with concepts and thinks the concepts applies perfectly in the real world?Originally posted by CannotTahan:first, debt will diminish with rising property prices and salaries. second, the banking sector will hire more and become more important than other industries, so technician or technician's children have to be educated appropriately for the jobs. third, and in addition, i came across a singaporean scholar studying in London uni at the fore front of bio-medical scientific methods ie many good things are going on in the background. fourth, where can you emigrate to? you probably have not seen slaves' living conditions in developed countries. fifth, please refrain from using "heck" lar, I am sharing my info and opinions only what.
increasing property prices results mostly in increasing debt. How many Singaporeans can pay up a property at one go? most of us pay by instalments, and the higher the price, the more saddled in debt we will become.
I assume you will argue that increased salary will result in the ability to pay more at one go for higher property prices and in turn will result in lesser debt. I ask you, how much Singaporeans have a good pay increment (except for those ministers up there)?
The REAL reason (I believe) for rising property prices is for the govt to go out to the international arena and boast that they have achieved in making the average Singaporean own assets worth hundreds of thousands, when in actual fact, we are asset-rich, but also debt-rich and cash-poor. -
I also agree, what rubbish is that about slaves in developed countries? I have been to Belgium, France, UK, Spain, US, etc, and I have not seen any slaves as you mentionedOriginally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:And finally, you are some ignorant dote to think that the west is some barbaric place. If you are going to provide intelligent remarks fine. Else, I will use whatever language I so please to damn any stupid remarks.
So mind telling us where this place you went to that you saw slaves in this modern world? -
Here? In Singapore?Originally posted by soul_rage:I also agree, what rubbish is that about slaves in developed countries? I have been to Belgium, France, UK, Spain, US, etc, and I have not seen any slaves as you mentioned
So mind telling us where this place you went to that you saw slaves in this modern world? -
haha, ok, you winOriginally posted by MamaRos:Here? In Singapore? 
so he was referring to Singapore as the developed country with the slaves. -
When i wrote my opinions above, many are forward looking. For instance,Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Excuse me? Rising property prices? Debt? Do you even understand what you are writing? And are salaries rising? Would you provide the statistics to back that up or is MOM too closed mouthed about it as usual?
And bank sector jobs are reserved for the extremely well skilled and you probably won't qualify. Not least these jobs are pretty exclusive and hard to come by. How does that contribute to anything beyond giving tax revenue to the Govt. I don't even know what kind of logic you are using saying that it will help some technician who won't get an ounce of benefit from this beyond whatever the Govt doles out at its sufference.
And biomed? It's one thing to say good things are going on in the field but it's another to capitalise on the the discovery. As it is, there is no mechanism to harness and take advantage of it, not least Pharmaceutical companies will only bother to develop the drug only if they have full rights to it. Obviously someone in the civil service isn't doing any thinking.
And finally, you are some ignorant dote to think that the west is some barbaric place. If you are going to provide intelligent remarks fine. Else, I will use whatever language I so please to damn any stupid remarks.
Standard Chartered announced that it is going to increase its TOTAL headcount by 58%.
Rising property prices and salaries do eliminate debt. To be precise, inflation. For example, 30 years ago, one could buy a 40K house, took a 30K debt and earned $200 per month. Now, he earns $3000 and his house is worth lets say 400K. The proportion of debt literally disappears. Hence debt is eliminated. Another although negative way to eliminate debt is by depreciation of the currency from a foreign investor's point of view. For instance an Indonesian debt literally disappears when the Rupiah crashed from 2000 to 12000.
Lets assume we are all slaves in Singapore. What makes you masters in other countries when you emigrate? You will be surprised that the workers there are equally unhappy. Worse, you might even be discriminated against. -
I really cannot tahan your lack of understanding. Do you know what the banking sector depends on? The banking sector depends on other businesses in other sectors. If you are just going to focus on the banking industry, you can expect their headcount to reduce by 58%!Originally posted by CannotTahan:When i wrote my opinions above, many are forward looking. For instance,
Standard Chartered announced that it is going to increase its TOTAL headcount by 58%.
Rising property prices and salaries do eliminate debt. To be precise, inflation. For example, 30 years ago, one could buy a 40K house, took a 30K debt and earned $200 per month. Now, he earns $3000 and his house is worth lets say 400K. The proportion of debt literally disappears. Hence debt is eliminated. Another although negative way to eliminate debt is by depreciation of the currency from a foreign investor's point of view. For instance an Indonesian debt literally disappears when the Rupiah crashed from 2000 to 12000.
Lets assume we are all slaves in Singapore. What makes you masters in other countries when you emigrate? You will be surprised that the workers there are equally unhappy. Worse, you might even be discriminated against.
In Banking they have different departments, investment arm, factoring arm, credit line arm blah blah... investment in what? Factoring what? Extending credit line to whom?
Rising property prices is applicable to Singapore in the past, but based on your assumption, we would be earning $45000 and our house $4million in the future. But based on salary figures for the past 20 years, things seems to be pretty stagnant. On the other hand, property prices (esp resale flats) have been steadily climbing up...
Ok lets assume that we are now all in another country... do you think the stupid people will allow a 33% increase in salary for their government? You can jolly well expect a backlash. Only in Singapore would you find such tame and KIASI citizens... MM Lee knows this and he is probably laughing his socks off at how easy it is to earn money in Singapore. -
Where are you only focusing on the banking industry cannotTahan?Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:I really cannot tahan your lack of understanding. Do you know what the banking sector depends on? The banking sector depends on other businesses in other sectors. If you are just going to focus on the banking industry, you can expect their headcount to reduce by 58%!
Ok lets assume that we are now all in another country... do you think the stupid people will allow a 33% increase in salary for their government? You can jolly well expect a backlash. Only in Singapore would you find such tame and KIASI citizens... MM Lee knows this and he is probably laughing his socks off at how easy it is to earn money in Singapore.
Also, don't you even know that our govt has been losing so much investments overseas? Everytime they screw up, they come back and demand more money from the people. So I still can't see why you think they are so good. -
ermmm.... where am i now???
nice job done for CON SOLI DAT ION. -
aiyo, he paiseh mah so much commotion about him getting such such hiigh pay. so he told people he donates!!! he simply doesn't derserve such pay! Given a choice, I believe majority of singaporeans will not vote him to be our PM. Hope his son or daughter will not be our future PM, we have got enough from the Lees already!!Originally posted by Vigelic:LHL donate money that topic kena locked.. so post this here in reference to LHL donate money..
The Electric New Paper :
Think of nation as... S'PORE INC
How should Mr Shareholder view CEO's gesture from heart?
THANK you very much for what is a selfless act, PM Lee - donating the increase in your salary for five years.
13 April 2007
THANK you very much for what is a selfless act, PM Lee - donating the increase in your salary for five years.
You told Parliament yesterday: 'To make it quite clear why I am doing this and also to give me the moral standing to defend this policy with Singaporeans, I will hold my own salary at the present level for five years.'
Mr Lee Hsien Loong added: 'The Government will pay me my full salary because that is the way the system will have to work. But for five years, whatever the increase in the salary above its present level, I will donate to suitable good causes.'
In a way, your gesture is also a Catch 22.
It tells ordinary Singaporeans that serving the nation is a higher calling than working in a big company for big bucks.
Your job calls for heart.
And you have shown that yours is in the right place.
But at the same time, you need to protect the principle that public servants should not have to make big personal sacrifices, especially when their skills would earn them much more in the marketplace.
It is also good that you made it a personal decision.
'I don't expect other ministers to follow me. (The pay rise) is a Cabinet decision, but I am the one who's carrying the ultimate responsibility and not them individually...
'What individual ministers want to do is up to them. What individual MPs want to do is also up to you.
'I know that the ministers and the MPs already support various worthy causes, but it should not be a public ostentatious display of how generous and self-sacrificing I am but a private matter for them to decide at their own discretion.'
The hope is that the House - and your Cabinet - understands your call.
If all your ministers followed your example and donated their increases, the ngeow (fault-finding in Hokkien) citizen will say: 'See, you don't really need the extra money.'
Then we'll be back at Square One.
So what more can a well-meaning person do?
Then-PM Goh Chok Tong in 1995 turned down a pay rise (for five years).
Do people still remember the gesture?
Will they remember PM Lee's donation years from now?
Well, it's all up to you, Mr Citizen.
First, understand the issue.
Then, form your judgment.
PM Lee used his head, then his heart led the way.
So think this through, Mr Citizen.
Then let your heart decide how to view a beau geste - a beautiful gesture.
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Privacy Statement and Conditions of Access
RE: http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/news/story/0,4136,127421,00.html? -
I am sorry, about banking, you sound too inexperienced. as for property, you might be right with what you wrote. Again, i only gave an example on why inflation will wipe out debt. If you apply simple maths sufficiently, even a 100% rise is sufficient to reduce one's debt significantly.Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:I really cannot tahan your lack of understanding. Do you know what the banking sector depends on? The banking sector depends on other businesses in other sectors. If you are just going to focus on the banking industry, you can expect their headcount to reduce by 58%!
In Banking they have different departments, investment arm, factoring arm, credit line arm blah blah... investment in what? Factoring what? Extending credit line to whom?
Rising property prices is applicable to Singapore in the past, but based on your assumption, we would be earning $45000 and our house $4million in the future. But based on salary figures for the past 20 years, things seems to be pretty stagnant. On the other hand, property prices (esp resale flats) have been steadily climbing up...
Ok lets assume that we are now all in another country... do you think the stupid people will allow a 33% increase in salary for their government? You can jolly well expect a backlash. Only in Singapore would you find such tame and KIASI citizens... MM Lee knows this and he is probably laughing his socks off at how easy it is to earn money in Singapore.
So far, I put forward objective and positive opinions which are in "opposition" to most of the postings in this forum. What I received so far are denials, condemnations, "hecking" to the point that I should be silent. Now aren't you behaving like what you claimed the PAP party has behaved too? If the day comes when people like you rule Singapore, I dont expect you to behave any better either. "Silence the opposition and no other opinions, you ignorant dote!" = your style.
About ministers' salary. Lets put it this way. LHL has set a highly sensitive political decision because the population's support especially during general elections depend a lot on trust. By setting a benchmark to top salary earners, Singaporeans will react by their votes when things do not get better over the next few years. -
Well, Soul_rage. Investments is risk taking and risk is defined as loss potential for an appropriate returns. I rather have loss from legitimate investments from market forces than loss from invisible and unaccountable reasons such as corruption. Until now, I have only stated as a matter of fact some developments which I think are positive because I feel that the postings so far are too negative.Originally posted by soul_rage:Where are you only focusing on the banking industry cannotTahan?
Also, don't you even know that our govt has been losing so much investments overseas? Everytime they screw up, they come back and demand more money from the people. So I still can't see why you think they are so good.
Since you sound so knowledgeable about Singapore, Let me ask you a question about Singapore. How does one form capital in Singapore enough to break out of poverty for a "slave" living in a HDB flat in Punggol ??
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Originally posted by CannotTahan:
nope, I did not ever say I am knowledgeable about Singapore. It seems like the one whom seemed to think the world of himself is you, and all your arguments so far sound really textbook-based.
Well, Soul_rage. Investments is risk taking and risk is defined as loss potential for an appropriate returns. I rather have loss from legitimate investments from market forces than loss from invisible and unaccountable reasons such as corruption. Until now, I have only stated as a matter of fact some developments which I think are positive because I feel that the postings so far are too negative.
Since you sound so knowledgeable about Singapore, Let me ask you a question about Singapore. How does one form capital in Singapore enough to break out of poverty for a "slave" living in a HDB flat in Punggol ??
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Don't talk to me about property prices, coz they are basically, just paper play. Its just like revenues and profits. They are all on paper. You can be bleeding cash even if you are mightily profitable, agree?
Again, I pose the few questions that I have asked before, and since you keep saying we are opposing you like the PAP, then let's start from here.
1) What achievements have they achieved, that justifies their pay?
2) What kind of risks do they face that justifies their pay? Again, you know that in the private sector, high salary comes with high risks. The sames does not hold for ministers
3) Correct. Investments can make losses. But do you know they are making a lot of losses? I can even name you the 3 main eggs of Temasek that earn money. The rest are questionable. Again, making a billion dollar investment mistake equals being shown out of the door, coz a highly paid investment manager's job is on the line when he made a mistake. Does this happen to PAP? I see them still sitting there happily taking their pay.
Lastly, I have made that example of the public transport, and how I believe its a good method of distributing wealth to the poor, better than any of their current schemes now. But instead, all our govt cares about is money, privatizing a public transport company is a paradox. -
Hi Soul_rage, I dont know the answers to your questions because I dont have that knowledge nor the information.
I do have a feeling that the pay hike for the ministers does "hurt" many people. Logically, the enormous gap between leaders and ordinary folks (including civil servants) would alienate the leaders from the people they are leading. That is a fair assumption, i believe. That is probably the reason why we see so many postings of resentments on this forum. -
Agree with you. Shucks - seems that their pay increment/adjustment does not base on their performance - rather it is based on the economy. Correct me if I am wrong. As politicians their main duty/responsibility is to serve the nation, so how they perform it is really up to the nation to judge. If economy is not doing well, will their pay be deducted. Now that lee hsien loong claims that economy is doing well, is he going to give the green light to restore the CPF contribution to employees? Seems he only care for himself. He and his $$$$$$ ! In our hearts, we know if he is genuine to care for the people of singapore.Originally posted by soul_rage:nope, I did not ever say I am knowledgeable about Singapore. It seems like the one whom seemed to think the world of himself is you, and all your arguments so far sound really textbook-based.
Don't talk to me about property prices, coz they are basically, just paper play. Its just like revenues and profits. They are all on paper. You can be bleeding cash even if you are mightily profitable, agree?
Again, I pose the few questions that I have asked before, and since you keep saying we are opposing you like the PAP, then let's start from here.
1) What achievements have they achieved, that justifies their pay?
2) What kind of risks do they face that justifies their pay? Again, you know that in the private sector, high salary comes with high risks. The sames does not hold for ministers
3) Correct. Investments can make losses. But do you know they are making a lot of losses? I can even name you the 3 main eggs of Temasek that earn money. The rest are questionable. Again, making a billion dollar investment mistake equals being shown out of the door, coz a highly paid investment manager's job is on the line when he made a mistake. Does this happen to PAP? I see them still sitting there happily taking their pay.
Lastly, I have made that example of the public transport, and how I believe its a good method of distributing wealth to the poor, better than any of their current schemes now. But instead, all our govt cares about is money, privatizing a public transport company is a paradox.
Let's see what percentage of vote he will get in the next election. -
Dear Laddie, I am glad to know that you are willing to accept that the points made are not answerable, coz there are many PAP supporters that always boast how good the govt is, but when I ask those questions, none of them can answer.Originally posted by CannotTahan:Hi Soul_rage, I dont know the answers to your questions because I dont have that knowledge nor the information.
I do have a feeling that the pay hike for the ministers does "hurt" many people. Logically, the enormous gap between leaders and ordinary folks (including civil servants) would alienate the leaders from the people they are leading. That is a fair assumption, i believe. That is probably the reason why we see so many postings of resentments on this forum.
Also, I believe you should know the pay these ministers get are coming from where?
The pay comes from taxpayers.
Every $ given to them is a $ that can be given to better help the poor.
Also, pls don't give them the credit that the economy is doing well. Its precisely becoz of all of us here, the normal Singaporeans, whom work our asses off that the economy is doing well, and which they are claiming the credit for themselves.
Finally, I would like to make one impt point. When a person SERVES the nation, he SERVES it with his heart, not how much he should be getting. The pay they were already getting was already good enough for their lives (more than many many other people). If a person SERVES the nation coz of money, and if you don't pay him enough, he will leave, then, PLEASE LEAVE.
Ministers, you are SERVING the nation, NOT the people SERVES you. If anything, you guys are the SERVANTS of the nation, and the people are your bosses. Please get that right. -
Bigmouth is right in the sense that banking does depend on other sectors too. We understand that inflation will technically wipe out debt, but that is under the circumstances that one does not incur more debt! It works, provided you get a pay raise...Originally posted by CannotTahan:I am sorry, about banking, you sound too inexperienced. as for property, you might be right with what you wrote. Again, i only gave an example on why inflation will wipe out debt. If you apply simple maths sufficiently, even a 100% rise is sufficient to reduce one's debt significantly.
So far, I put forward objective and positive opinions which are in "opposition" to most of the postings in this forum. What I received so far are denials, condemnations, "hecking" to the point that I should be silent. Now aren't you behaving like what you claimed the PAP party has behaved too? If the day comes when people like you rule Singapore, I dont expect you to behave any better either. "Silence the opposition and no other opinions, you ignorant dote!" = your style. In Singapore, simple maths only apply to ministers, for the common people I think 33% increase in pay is RIDICULOUS?! -
The real world is different from textbook perfect senarios. You are the one that sound inexperienced in my opinion.Originally posted by CannotTahan:Hi Soul_rage, I dont know the answers to your questions because I dont have that knowledge nor the information.
I do have a feeling that the pay hike for the ministers does "hurt" many people. Logically, the enormous gap between leaders and ordinary folks (including civil servants) would alienate the leaders from the people they are leading. That is a fair assumption, i believe. That is probably the reason why we see so many postings of resentments on this forum. -
Yes - we are their boss!! Without the people of Singapore they will not be where they are today so they have to give thanks to the people of Singapore and not keep claiming whatever good is their credit. It is like we are the customers and they own the store. If we don't patronize them, their store will close down and they can't earn any $$$ out of us. So be humble!!Originally posted by soul_rage:Dear Laddie, I am glad to know that you are willing to accept that the points made are not answerable, coz there are many PAP supporters that always boast how good the govt is, but when I ask those questions, none of them can answer.
Also, I believe you should know the pay these ministers get are coming from where?
The pay comes from taxpayers.
Every $ given to them is a $ that can be given to better help the poor.
Also, pls don't give them the credit that the economy is doing well. Its precisely becoz of all of us here, the normal Singaporeans, whom work their asses off that the economy is doing well, and which they are claiming the credit for themselves.
Finally, I would like to make one impt point. When a person SERVES the nation, he SERVES it with his heart, not how much he should be getting. The pay they were already getting was already good enough for their lives (more than many many other people). If a person SERVES the nation coz of money, and if you don't pay him enough, he will leave, then, PLEASE LEAVE.
Ministers, you are SERVING the nation, NOT the people SERVES you. If anything, you guys are the SERVANTS of the nation, and the people are your bosses. Please get that right. -
Yes. I think our govt has inverted the entire thing about nationhood.Originally posted by rane:Yes - we are their boss!! Without the people of Singapore they will not be where they are today so they have to give thanks to the people of Singapore and not keep claiming whatever good is their credit. It is like we are the customers and they own the store. If we don't patronize them, their store will close down and they can't earn any $$$ out of us. So be humble!!
The ideals of
Nation before Community,
Community before Family,
Family before Self
can only be more realistic, IF the leaders themselves practise what they preach.
Before that, don't expect majority of Singaporeans to think for the country first, coz the country never thinks of them in the 1st place. -
Top in the country think of fat salary and people will have to work hard for the $$$$ to allow them fat salary. So wonder does serving the nation comes first or getting fat salary comes first. IN singapore, theirs is the only job that is secure and pay so super well. So far no retrenchment - so secure!! Generally speaking, if the politicians of the country put earning fat salary as their top priority then how far - how sincere for them to care and serve the nation. So don't blame the nation for doubting their sincerity to become ministers, PM and so on. Are they genuine to serve the people?Originally posted by soul_rage:Yes. I think our govt has inverted the entire thing about nationhood.
The ideals of
Nation before Community,
Community before Family,
Family before Self
can only be more realistic, IF the leaders themselves practise what they preach.
Before that, don't expect majority of Singaporeans to think for the country first, coz the country never thinks of them in the 1st place.