Consolidation of all topics related to Ministers' Pay
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Singapore = Enron....where profits are either doctored or flowed into the pockets of the top fews -
Cannot Tahan your opinion then. ha ha.Originally posted by bangkokboy:The real world is different from textbook perfect senarios. You are the one that sound inexperienced in my opinion. -
Dear old bird (since you called me Laddie), I describe what you wrote as essential qualities desired from our ministers. I dont disagree with what you wrote. However, that does not mean we can find better ministers than what we have at the moment, judging from the way some members (who might come from SDP, WP whatever) wrote here.Originally posted by soul_rage:Dear Laddie, I am glad to know that you are willing to accept that the points made are not answerable, coz there are many PAP supporters that always boast how good the govt is, but when I ask those questions, none of them can answer.
Also, I believe you should know the pay these ministers get are coming from where?
The pay comes from taxpayers.
Every $ given to them is a $ that can be given to better help the poor.
Also, pls don't give them the credit that the economy is doing well. Its precisely becoz of all of us here, the normal Singaporeans, whom work our asses off that the economy is doing well, and which they are claiming the credit for themselves.
Finally, I would like to make one impt point. When a person SERVES the nation, he SERVES it with his heart, not how much he should be getting. The pay they were already getting was already good enough for their lives (more than many many other people). If a person SERVES the nation coz of money, and if you don't pay him enough, he will leave, then, PLEASE LEAVE.
Ministers, you are SERVING the nation, NOT the people SERVES you. If anything, you guys are the SERVANTS of the nation, and the people are your bosses. Please get that right.
By the way, I dont think you have answered my question becos public transportation is not a money making machine. Who pays for the profits in the public transportation, commuters pay. Who uses public transportation? Those who dont drive. It will not succeed to help common folks to form capital.
FYI, PAP party stands as long as there is no good alternative to them. A good alternative is an opposition who can help the poor out of poverty without "crashing" the country's finances.
It is really textbook idealism to say "SERVE THE NATION". In real life, people need more than idealistic ministers/govt. People need a stable environment to live and to proper.
btw i talked at length to quite a few taxi drivers who complained a lot about our govt. Guess what? All of them had at least SGD600K cash net. Pretty well off. They lost all due to a) businesses, b) share investments, c) properties during recession. Then they blamed the govt. Are you guys having the same characteristics?
Until now, I have not read any constructive ideas from the opposition as to how to help common folks out of their poverty trap. Therefore, I will continue to vote for PAP party, even if the ministers' salary go to 10 million dollars. Why? at least they know how to and they have indeed created the system for the common folks to prosper. As a reminder and an example, my cousin who once lived in HDB, now in multi-million bungalow. Also the above taxi drivers who once made it. -
Wrong. Sylvia would make a good minister judging from her passionate speech and great ideas with all the correct sense. Listen to Teo Chee Hean, who smacks of rubbish in his replies (paradoxical, contradictory replies that don't make sense), and Vivian Balakrishnan, who only asks people to put the pay issue aside, coz its over (to them), and let's move on together.Originally posted by CannotTahan:Dear old bird (since you called me Laddie), I describe what you wrote as essential qualities desired from our ministers. I dont disagree with what you wrote. However, that does not mean we can find better ministers than what we have at the moment, judging from the way some members (who might come from SDP, WP whatever) wrote here.
Again, you are hit by govt propaganda. And you are an exact example of how PAP is affecting our youths. Go out to the world and see, there ARE politicians that work for the good of the nation.
By the way, I dont think you have answered my question becos public transportation is not a money making machine. Who pays for the profits in the public transportation, commuters pay. Who uses public transportation? Those who dont drive. It will not succeed to help common folks to form capital.
[/quote]
Isn't public transportation a MONEY-MAKING machine NOW? When private corporations run it, its all about profits. I am sure the many Singaporeans whom take public transport wouldn't mind the surplus (after paying all the bus service staff and mrt service staff) to be distributed to the poor if we use it as a form of distribution to the poor.
So what did the govt do with the COE cash that they collected? Did they help the common folks? NO. They could take the COE and use it to help the poor too.
Again you don't make sense. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing. You did not explain why you think its not a good idea to use public transport to distribute some wealth to the poor.
FYI, PAP party stands as long as there is no good alternative to them. A good alternative is an opposition who can help the poor out of poverty without "crashing" the country's finances.
Listen here, no one told you we are voting the PAP out. Everyone's saying is that PAP is now so arrogant, that voting more oppositions in will make sure they remember that they are serving the people, NOT the other way ard.
It is really textbook idealism to say "SERVE THE NATION". In real life, people need more than idealistic ministers/govt. People need a stable environment to live and to proper.
No I am not. I am in the top 10% of their so-called survey on personal income. The precise reason why I have become so vocal is becoz I reached the top 10% not becoz of their help, but it is thru my own realization of my value, and to break out of that vicious cycle that the govt put on many Singaporeans (that is, to accept low pay). And I dislike the way the govt makes use of us to attract more investment (low pay), and then pay themselves more. (sounds familiar? Animal farm?)
btw i talked at length to quite a few taxi drivers who complained a lot of our govt. Guess what? All of them had at least SGD600K cash. Pretty well off. They lost all due to a) businesses, b) share investments, c) properties during recession. Then they blamed the govt. Are you guys having the same characteristics?
So you think that we are blaming them coz we lost our finances to gambling and investments? How childish![quote]Let's debate about my public transport idea. You haven't explain why you think it doesn't work.
Until now, I have not read any constructive ideas from anyone here as to how to help common folks out of their poverty trap. Therefore, I will continue to vote for PAP party. Why? at least they know how to and they have indeed created the system for the common folks to prosper. As a reminder and an example, my cousin who once lived in HDB, now in multi-million bungalow. Also the above taxi drivers who once made it.
You can go ahead to vote for PAP. No one will stop you. You will just continue to live in the sad cycle of pragmatism, and you won't know what is genuinely a happy life. To date, all I hear from you are pragmatic words, multi-million, prosper, etc, its all about money to you isn't it? just as what the govt is doing for themselves. Its all about money, not about others.
I fear that our society is losing its morals and values, and what is being replaced are monetary achievements, which at the end of the day, doesn't bring about a happier life. -
Let's debate about my public transport idea. You haven't explain why you think it doesn't work.Originally posted by soul_rage:Let's debate about my public transport idea. You haven't explain why you think it doesn't work.
You can go ahead to vote for PAP. No one will stop you. You will just continue to live in the sad cycle of pragmatism, and you won't know what is genuinely a happy life. To date, all I hear from you are pragmatic words, multi-million, prosper, etc, its all about money to you isn't it? just as what the govt is doing for themselves. Its all about money, not about others.
I fear that our society is losing its morals and values, and what is being replaced are monetary achievements, which at the end of the day, doesn't bring about a happier life.
My reason is simple. Common people (people who dont drive and assumed lowly paid) pay for the bus/mrt fares and the profit is then recycled back to them. It simply means that the common people get cheap public transport, that's all. It does not help the common folks form capital.
The main topic here is about more money for the poor and moral authority for the ministers who earn too much. So I dont think you were fair to conclude that I am very affected by the govt's propaganda and that I am talking about money, money and money only. It is the issue here, isn't it? poor not having enough money and government still taxing them for their own high salaries? (btw what proof do you have that our govt taxes the poor for their own high salaries? as i understand, most of us dont pay income taxes.)
As I said, I agreed with the desired values of a politician. By drawing enormous salary, it is difficult to draw a line between "I work for the money" and "I truly work for the people". So I dont dispute any of that.
What I wrote is simple. Complains and criticism out of emotions dont make things better. Only constructive ones do.
Since you broke out of the vicious poverty cycle, why dont you then share the method to all the poor people by writing into this forum since this is a public forum? -
negative. The 3 pillars of society is transport, education and healthcare. Keeping the transport cheap is ALREADY 1 effective way of helping the poorer people.Originally posted by CannotTahan:My reason is simple. Common people (people who dont drive and assumed lowly paid) pay for the bus/mrt fares and the profit is then recycled back to them. It simply means that the common people get cheap public transport, that's all.
And why not profits recycled back to them? Isn't that better than giving it to the current private corporations?
Also, your assumption of bus/mrt only for poor is wrong. I take the MRT, coz its effective for me. One of our female MPs, also take the MRT. By taking the surplus from transport and then redistributing back to the people at the lowest income gap, we are effectively helping the poorer group, and this is much better than giving money to private corporations running PUBLIC transport.
Hello!!! who don't pay income tax? Most working people here have to pay income tax. Who gave you that idea?
The main topic here is about more money for the poor and moral authority for the ministers who earn too much. So I dont think you were fair to conclude that I am very affected by the govt's propaganda and that I am talking about money, money and money only. It is the issue here, isn't it? poor not having enough money and government still taxing them for their own high salaries? (btw what proof do you have that our govt taxes the poor for their own high salaries? as i understand, most of us dont pay income taxes.)
And do not put words in my mouth. I DID NOT say our govt tax the poor for their high salaries. I said, the money for their pay hike should be used to help alleviate the poorer income group, coz that is OUR taxpayers' money
And pls get this right, income tax is not the only tax. GST is another tax, and it is still the same, taxpayers' money!
As I already mentioned, my breaking out of the cycle (not poverty, I am not poor, please), is a change in mentality, but it also takes hard work to break out of it. -
Originally posted by soul_rage:
Public Transport
Hello!!! who don't pay income tax? Most working people here have to pay income tax. Who gave you that idea?
And do not put words in my mouth. I DID NOT say our govt tax the poor for their high salaries. I said, the money for their pay hike should be used to help alleviate the poorer income group, coz that is OUR taxpayers' money
And pls get this right, income tax is not the only tax. GST is another tax, and it is still the same, taxpayers' money!
As I already mentioned, my breaking out of the cycle (not poverty, I am not poor, please), is a change in mentality, but it also takes hard work to break out of it. [/b]
Around the globe, public transportations are making losses. Are you sure that Singapore's is making money? If it is making losses, it is probably better to privatize it, isn't it?
If it is profitable, then the idea lowers the cost of living for the poorest group at best. (well at least it solves increasing public transportation costs above inflation rate and I admire this idea).
GST
LHL said that the GST is increased to 7% so that the increase would be used to help the poor. Assume he is true, then isn't he doing the same thing as proposed by you?
Income tax
It is stated in the newspaper by one of our more prominent ministers. So I assume it is true.
Ministers' salaries
First you said ministers' salaries are high. Then you said these money is from the tax payers. So isn't that implying that the govt taxes the tax-payers for their high salaries?
Salaries of the people
You would see the general salaries of Singaporeans increase steadily over the next few years.
Place your wagers
Sylvia Lim
Well, Sylvia Lim from Workers' Party does touch many people's hearts. She does look promising and I guess she will gather more votes next round to enter as MP. -
When I am talking about transport, its about a current policy change for the better. He is adding more burden with the 7%Originally posted by CannotTahan:[b]Public Transport
Around the globe, public transportations are making losses. Are you sure that Singapore's is making money? If it is making losses, it is probably better to privatize it, isn't it?
If it is profitable, then the idea lowers the cost of living for the poorest group at best. (well at least it solves increasing public transportation costs above inflation rate and I admire this idea).
[/b][/quote]
Why do they not make money? SMRT and SBS are making profits a couple of millions. And yes, I am talking about bridging the poorest income gap.GST
LHL said that the GST is increased to 7% so that the increase would be used to help the poor. Assume he is true, then isn't he doing the same thing as proposed by you?
And the reason that they cannot implement staggered GST so that certain basic necessities are exempt from GST? Coz its too complicated a system to implement.
I ask you, if you were working in a job, and your boss comes to you and ask you to do something, and you tell him, 'No I can't do it, too complicated', what will your boss say? 'Well why do I pay you for? If you can't solve the work then you are not suitable for this job'
Similarly, paying them so much and the reason for not implementing staggered GST so that the poor can be alleviated from the pain? 'Oh, too complicated'.
What crap!??!
bulls**t. So I assume you are still a student, since you took it at face value.Income tax
It is stated in the newspaper by one of our more prominent ministers. So I assume it is true.YES. Where do they get funds from to pay for their salaries? Its from the taxes. So obviously every $ is accountable to the people, $ that is better spent on helping to bridge the income gapMinisters' salaries
First you said ministers' salaries are high. Then you said these money is from the tax payers. So isn't that implying that the govt taxes the tax-payers for their high salaries?
No one ever told you our pay aren't increasing. Its just that its increasing VERY SLOWLY.Salaries of the people
You would see the general salaries of Singaporeans increase steadily over the next few years.
Place your wagers
Even now, you talk to the civil service. Many of them are peeved at the govt. Coz they are the scapegoats of the pay hike fiasco. Do you know how many of them did not get a pay rise, but just a 1-time bonus (< 1 mth)?[quote]Sylvia LimGood. You noted this. This is ONE minister in the making, better than ANY of our current ministers.
Well, Sylvia Lim from Workers' Party does touch many people's hearts. She does look promising and I guess she will gather more votes next round to enter as MP. -
Originally posted by CannotTahan:
I would take it that you are a student just fresh out into the real world... welcome to the real world.
[quote]Public Transport
Around the globe, public transportations are making losses. Are you sure that Singapore's is making money? If it is making losses, it is probably better to privatize it, isn't it?
If it is profitable, then the idea lowers the cost of living for the poorest group at best. (well at least it solves increasing public transportation costs above inflation rate and I admire this idea).
SINGAPORE : The Consumers Association of Singapore has said this is not the right time to increase public transport fares, as salaries of the lower income have not gone up.
CASE was responding to SMRT's application to the Public Transport Council to increase its fares.
SMRT has applied to increase fares on its bus, MRT and LRT services this year.
But CASE says the fare hikes are not justified, as the listed transport operator made a record net profit of S$126.9 million in the financial year which ended on March 31.
That is 42 percent higher than its profits the previous year.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/145571/1/.htmlGST
Helping the poor? Oh come on don’t tell me you actually fell for that nonsense? The more likely scenario is that they are helping themselves, the new Poor of Singapore. Poor in Morale Values that is. That pay increase would be better given direct to the needy instead of wasting everyone’s time given to a coward that only hides behind his mentors... “Help daddy! The pleasant are upset over my pocket money!”
LHL said that the GST is increased to 7% so that the increase would be used to help the poor. Assume he is true, then isn't he doing the same thing as proposed by you?
How does the poor actually benefit from something that most commonly have LOTS of red tapes. You don't know how important $2 is to some people. They might not even have food the next day, you think they can wait few months for their MPs/charity organisation to respond?Ministers' salaries
Come on, I wouldnÂ’t mind paying more taxes if my income increased by 33%. Freak man.
First you said ministers' salaries are high. Then you said these money is from the tax payers. So isn't that implying that the govt taxes the tax-payers for their high salaries?
Salaries of the people
This is just an assumption. Even an increase in 10cents is an increase to you I wager. You would see more retrenchment and the general salaries of Singaporeans remaining stagnant. Place your wagersÂ…
You would see the general salaries of Singaporeans increase steadily over the next few years.
Place your wagers
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Public Transport
Around the globe, public transportations are making losses. Are you sure that Singapore's is making money? If it is making losses, it is probably better to privatize it, isn't it?
If it is profitable, then the idea lowers the cost of living for the poorest group at best. (well at least it solves increasing public transportation costs above inflation rate and I admire this idea).
GST
LHL said that the GST is increased to 7% so that the increase would be used to help the poor. Assume he is true, then isn't he doing the same thing as proposed by you?
Income tax
It is stated in the newspaper by one of our more prominent ministers. So I assume it is true.
Ministers' salaries
First you said ministers' salaries are high. Then you said these money is from the tax payers. So isn't that implying that the govt taxes the tax-payers for their high salaries?
if i were you, i would have just shut up.
it is so obvious you are still a student and not know what singapore is about.
do some research about SMRT profits before you start shooting like " Cho" --blindly.
as far as i know most of my friends pay income tax. if like what you heard from minister most singaporean dont pay income tax, probably most singaporean are indeed living in povety. dont ask fellow students, the only unbias media you can rely on in singapore is the forums. read it and make a judgement for yourself.
as far as i know the first thing he did after increasing GST to 7% is not to help the poor but their own pay pocket. why do the govt need some much tax returns for? doesnt we have another hefty tax returns from IR when in started in 3-4 years time? what that tax returns gona use for? -
It is difficult to defend the pay hike of the ministers' salaries. It might even open a floodgate if the public's broken hearts are not recovered.Originally posted by soul_rage:Good. You noted this. This is ONE minister in the making, better than ANY of our current ministers.
I shall stop writing further. -
laddie, I am NOT asking you to stop supporting the PAP. I do not have that right.Originally posted by CannotTahan:It is difficult to defend the pay hike of the ministers' salaries. It might even open a floodgate if the public's broken hearts are not recovered.
I shall stop writing further.
All I am asking for, is that
(1) you keep an open mind, and look ard you. Do not become one with an elitist attitude (ie one that does not care of the unhappiness of the common citizen, coz this breeds arrogance and ignorance, and is usually the 1st step to a downfall)
(2) keep away from extremism. LKY always use comments like 'We cannot have a dud minister', 'We cannot lose our capable cabinet'. His comments are all ABSOLUTE. The common Singaporean acknowledges what the PAP has done, but also has the rightful mind to know that the PAP is now so arrogant, that they must be taught a lesson.
No one advocates the knocking down of the entire PAP cabinet, but just a lesson so that they wake up and start to understand what the word UNDERSTAND means.
(3) you acknowledge that some points here are in their most likelihood, true about the PAP, (eg ministers aren't really worth their pay, coz till now, what achievements do they have. Opposition members aren't necessarily lousy as what the PAP suggests. Look at Sylvia and Low Thia Kiang)
If you walk away from this embracing the above, then its enough. You would finally start to see things with your heart, and not only with your eyes. Your eyes read only their propaganda that they show you, but your heart will tell you things the PAP will not want to tell you. -
It is difficult to defend because of the fact that it is not justified. But it's good that you see our side of the argument.Originally posted by CannotTahan:It is difficult to defend the pay hike of the ministers' salaries. It might even open a floodgate if the public's broken hearts are not recovered.
I shall stop writing further. -
In another five years' time, most Singaporeans WILL remember this issue about ministers' pay hike but they will not have the same angst they felt when the news first broke out.
Back to Square One? -
Depends, every 5 years, you have the youngsters entering the voting arena, whom are getting increasingly annoyed by PAP.Originally posted by MamaRos:In another five years' time, most Singaporeans WILL remember this issue about ministers' pay hike but they will not have the same angst they felt when the news first broke out.
Back to Square One?
The most upsetting and disappointing thing is that, there are still many old folks, who voted for PAP, not coz they support them, but for the following reasons:
- Wait children/grandchildren working in the civil service or GLCs get into trouble -
Hi Soul_rage,
I read through many parts of this "Politics" forum and found that there are many knowledgeable people with comments which make good sense though most of them are anti types.
It looks like a credible opposition is snow-balling from a public forum like this.
People's memories are long and lasting. I dont think that such sensitive issues will be forgotten or dismissed in 5 years time.
My best guess is that if salaries do not jump by at least 50% in five years time, then more opposition members would find themselves sitting in the Parliament. The reason is then people will think the government has done a good job and everyone is happy.
On the contrary, i wonder what PAP will do if there are more than expected opposition members voted in.
from a laddie -
hi laddieOriginally posted by CannotTahan:Hi Soul_rage,
I read through many parts of this "Politics" forum and found that there are many knowledgeable people with comments which make good sense though most of them are anti types.
It looks like a credible opposition is snow-balling from a public forum like this.
People's memories are long and lasting. I dont think that such sensitive issues will be forgotten or dismissed in 5 years time.
My best guess is that if salaries do not jump by at least 50% in five years time, then more opposition members would find themselves sitting in the Parliament. The reason is then people will think the government has done a good job and everyone is happy.
On the contrary, i wonder what PAP will do if there are more than expected opposition members voted in.
from a laddie
from your comments above, I can see that your heart has opened somewhat. Continue to nurture it, and learn how to see beyond what the govt wants you to see.
Your life is your own, and its not governed by them. Many of their policies are meant to ensure their continued existence (citizens are merely a tool to them). Do not become such a tool, otherwise you will forever be stuck in a vicious cycle.
As always, my door is open should you wish to have private conversations with me. I enjoy opening others' hearts and minds, as well as opening mine up further as well.
Good luck laddie -
"Your life is your own, and its not governed by them. Many of their policies are meant to ensure their continued existence (citizens are merely a tool to them). Do not become such a tool, otherwise you will forever be stuck in a vicious cycle".
Agree with the above. Somehow just feel that the ruling party is manipulative. They think of themselves more than the people they serve. Just question where in the position do they place the interest of the people of Singapore. Not all are blind, there are many people who can tell whether the ruling party are really that genuninely in serving the people. A good example, LEE HSIEN LOONG encourages people to work till they are old. He even quoted an eg of an old person still working in his 80s. They hope Singaporeans can work till we are old so that we will not be a liability to the ruling part. For this they will not have many problems dealing with the age. In other words, he doesn't want burden from old people, he wanna be comfortable getting his unreasonable super high fat pay which he doesn't deserve.
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Hi Old Bird,Originally posted by soul_rage:hi laddie
from your comments above, I can see that your heart has opened somewhat. Continue to nurture it, and learn how to see beyond what the govt wants you to see.
Your life is your own, and its not governed by them. Many of their policies are meant to ensure their continued existence (citizens are merely a tool to them). Do not become such a tool, otherwise you will forever be stuck in a vicious cycle.
As always, my door is open should you wish to have private conversations with me. I enjoy opening others' hearts and minds, as well as opening mine up further as well.
Good luck laddie
I respect your views and your aspirations.
As you know I am a neutralist. I have been to many parts of the world, observed and certainly am quite open about things. I hope you are open to what i am going to write below.
a) locals complain their govts. This uniform similarity includes US, Europe and of cos Singapore etc. So the anti govt among Singaporeans is the norm, not extra-ordinary.
b) personally i wish LKY to live forever. He is the pillar of Singapore. His PAP built for Singapore a remarkable infrastructure out from nothing.
c) likewise, the enormous power of the PM is the highest risk for Singapore when LKY is not around. Put a wrong PM up there, Singapore is in big troubles. LKY might be worried about this that he decided to pay up the ministers to reduce this risk.
d) I grew out of the your so called "slave" class. Now I provide for my family and my elders with reasonably comfortable life. Tell you this : my father was from your so called "lowest income" group. Honestly, PAP built an infrastructure for all of us so well that sometimes we need some reminder lest we take things for granted.
e) GLC: look around, these are Singaporean companies hiring Singaporeans.
Politics is an area I am nuts about. I can only base my opinions on what i experienced and those around me. My conclusion is different from you. PAP might be tough. But I am alright with it -
Hi laddie, and as I mentioned, I meant what I say. I have no right to ask you to disagree or agree with what the govt is doing.Originally posted by CannotTahan:Hi Old Bird,
I respect your views and your aspirations.
As you know I am a neutralist. I have been to many parts of the world, observed and certainly am quite open about things. I hope you are open to what i am going to write below.
a) locals complain their govts. This uniform similarity includes US, Europe and of cos Singapore etc. So the anti govt among Singaporeans is the norm, not extra-ordinary.
b) personally i wish LKY to live forever. He is the pillar of Singapore. His PAP built for Singapore a remarkable infrastructure out from nothing.
c) likewise, the enormous power of the PM is the highest risk for Singapore when LKY is not around. Put a wrong PM up there, Singapore is in big troubles. LKY might be worried about this that he decided to pay up the ministers to reduce this risk.
d) I grew out of the your so called "slave" class. Now I provide for my family and my elders with reasonably comfortable life. Tell you this : my father was from your so called "lowest income" group. Honestly, PAP built an infrastructure for all of us so well that sometimes we need some reminder lest we take things for granted.
e) GLC: look around, these are Singaporean companies hiring Singaporeans.
Politics is an area I am nuts about. I can only base my opinions on what i experienced and those around me. My conclusion is different from you. PAP might be tough. But I am alright with it
But just keep your heart open, and see things with your heart, not your eyes. Then determine if what the govt is doing, is right or wrong. We need not follow every decision they make just becoz they are the govt. We support what is right, not just for them, but for the entire population.
I would also like to further talk about point (c). I think this problem, of PM being a potentially dangerous power if it falls into the wrong hands, is a problem caused by our govt themselves. Give someone absolute power, and it corrupts them absolutely. USA is truly governed by 3 powers, the President, the Parliament, and the Judicial system, unlike ours, where everything is officially governed by 3, but absolute power is concentrated into 1.
b) I personally wish LKY steps down, coz he is now too power-hungry, and is restricting the progress of our nation. If he could step down, and allow the young guns (new blood) to breathe new life into Singapore, I believe it can be better for Singapore.
There are many powerful men, whom step down from their powerful positions (Bill Gates for eg), becoz they realized one thing. They are no longer the young person they once was, and they need new blood to lead the company.
There is such thing as staying too long and stagnating progression.
Unfortunately, I think in Asian societies, this mindset is still not here yet.
And, glad to know you are providing well for your family. At least, your father can enjoy during old age.
Many others can't. You see them still working to this day, as road sweepers, food court cleaning staff, old cardbox collectors etc. I once was really saddened seeing this old lady being scolded by her food court manager (he was in actual fact, screaming at her so loudly that everyone was staring), and he was shouting he was going to sack her. -
Thanks for the agreement to what I said rane. Just a note to everyone here, I (and I can see many others here) am an opposition-leaning Singaporean, but one that views my opinions from a mature and objective position. I do protest against the pay-hike coz I think its not justifiable, and protest against the GST hike coz I think its an absurb excuse to "raise in good times, better than raising in bad times"Originally posted by rane:"Your life is your own, and its not governed by them. Many of their policies are meant to ensure their continued existence (citizens are merely a tool to them). Do not become such a tool, otherwise you will forever be stuck in a vicious cycle".
Agree with the above. Somehow just feel that the ruling party is manipulative. They think of themselves more than the people they serve. Just question where in the position do they place the interest of the people of Singapore. Not all are blind, there are many people who can tell whether the ruling party are really that genuninely in serving the people. A good example, LEE HSIEN LOONG encourages people to work till they are old. He even quoted an eg of an old person still working in his 80s. They hope Singaporeans can work till we are old so that we will not be a liability to the ruling part. For this they will not have many problems dealing with the age. In other words, he doesn't want burden from old people, he wanna be comfortable getting his unreasonable super high fat pay which he doesn't deserve.
But in no way do I condemn the govt, and wish LKY will die faster, or that LHL will meet an accident, etc. I think that sort of opposition is childish and immature, and further discredits those that truly oppose the govt's ways with a mature opinion, and realistic ideals. -
Hi old bird,Originally posted by soul_rage:Hi laddie, and as I mentioned, I meant what I say. I have no right to ask you to disagree or agree with what the govt is doing.
But just keep your heart open, and see things with your heart, not your eyes. Then determine if what the govt is doing, is right or wrong. We need not follow every decision they make just becoz they are the govt. We support what is right, not just for them, but for the entire population.
I would also like to further talk about point (c). I think this problem, of PM being a potentially dangerous power if it falls into the wrong hands, is a problem caused by our govt themselves. Give someone absolute power, and it corrupts them absolutely. USA is truly governed by 3 powers, the President, the Parliament, and the Judicial system, unlike ours, where everything is officially governed by 3, but absolute power is concentrated into 1.
b) I personally wish LKY steps down, coz he is now too power-hungry, and is restricting the progress of our nation. If he could step down, and allow the young guns (new blood) to breathe new life into Singapore, I believe it can be better for Singapore.
There are many powerful men, whom step down from their powerful positions (Bill Gates for eg), becoz they realized one thing. They are no longer the young person they once was, and they need new blood to lead the company.
There is such thing as staying too long and stagnating progression.
Unfortunately, I think in Asian societies, this mindset is still not here yet.
And, glad to know you are providing well for your family. At least, your father can enjoy during old age.
Many others can't. You see them still working to this day, as road sweepers, food court cleaning staff, old cardbox collectors etc. I once was really saddened seeing this old lady being scolded by her food court manager (he was in actual fact, screaming at her so loudly that everyone was staring), and he was shouting he was going to sack her.
You have a compassionate heart.
You have raised an interesting and additional issue. Is there help available to these helpless old people who have to be cleaners ?
It is true that Singapore is not and has chosen not to be a welfare state. This decision will inevitably cause retirement insecurity for those without sufficient savings (most will have to downgrade their standard of living, including myself).
I think there must be some genuine charities who are looking after these desperate old people. -
I wish to add a bit here. I talked to quite a few wealthy Singaporeans. All of them agreed on one point, it is easier to form capital here in Singapore than if they were in other countries. Of cos, some of them with loads of money, then emigrate to Canada, Australia etc.Originally posted by soul_rage:"Many of their policies are meant to ensure their continued existence (citizens are merely a tool to them). Do not become such a tool, otherwise you will forever be stuck in a vicious cycle".
Next, i think becos the Lee family is wealthy, LHL / LKY do not care about a few millions a year.
Still, I am not agreeing totally with the pay hike because it is difficult to win the argument. below are some of my thoughts.
pros : a) reduce corruption, b) easier to convince leaders in the private sector to join civil service, c) retain good people in the cabinet.
a) 1 million per year plus pension payout at retirement is more than sufficient to remove poverty from the minister. Whether he is corrupt or not from there depends only on his moral values. If he is corruptable, paying him 3 million wont make a difference.
b) back to (a). Also, public sector serves the public. leader of public sector should exhibit moral authority. taking a pay cut is an opportunity for him to show his moral authority and that he is willing to serve and that he is ready to go for higher aims in life other than money.
c) good people drawing 1mio per year dont go for private sector if he has a heart for the nation. -
we were lucky that we had LKY having lots of power becos he could really effect changes very quickily. I am worried that Singapore might not be that lucky the second, third and fourth time round.Originally posted by soul_rage:I would also like to further talk about point (c). I think this problem, of PM being a potentially dangerous power if it falls into the wrong hands, is a problem caused by our govt themselves. Give someone absolute power, and it corrupts them absolutely. USA is truly governed by 3 powers, the President, the Parliament, and the Judicial system, unlike ours, where everything is officially governed by 3, but absolute power is concentrated into 1.
This is a Power of One. It is like the power of an Emperor. It is unique because it is the system being created that gives the power to the PM. PM is elected by the MPs and MPs are elected by the people.
from this perspective, i am actually expecting LHL to effect some changes to reduce the power that the PM has before he steps down. -
we were lucky that we had LKY having lots of power becos he could really effect changes very quickily. I am worried that Singapore might not be that lucky the second, third and fourth time round.
This is a Power of One. It is like the power of an Emperor. It is unique because it is the system being created that gives the power to the PM. PM is elected by the MPs and MPs are elected by the people.
from this perspective, i am actually expecting LHL to effect some changes to reduce the power that the PM has before he steps down.
very true. in the early years of Qing dynasty. the have good emperor like Kangxi, yongzhen and qianlong. in this 3 emperor they have absolute power and thus push Qing dynasty into " kangqian shenshi". the drawback is once the power is fallen into bad hands, we can never recover again such as the following emperor like jiaqing, daoguang, xianfeng.
LKY should really read more book on Qianlong. the latter at his older age are the cause of decline of the dynasty as he keep living in his past laurels and fail to detect corruption creeping into his dynasty. LKY like wise, should just shut up and retire in glory.