Consolidation of all topics related to Ministers' Pay
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Monarchy degenerates into tyranny, aristocracy into oligarchy, and democracy into savage violence and chaos. -Polybius
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Originally posted by CannotTahan:Hi Old Bird,
I respect your views and your aspirations.
As you know I am a neutralist. I have been to many parts of the world, observed and certainly am quite open about things. I hope you are open to what i am going to write below.
a) locals complain their govts. This uniform similarity includes US, Europe and of cos Singapore etc. So the anti govt among Singaporeans is the norm, not extra-ordinary.
b) personally i wish LKY to live forever. He is the pillar of Singapore. His PAP built for Singapore a remarkable infrastructure out from nothing.
c) likewise, the enormous power of the PM is the highest risk for Singapore when LKY is not around. Put a wrong PM up there, Singapore is in big troubles. LKY might be worried about this that he decided to pay up the ministers to reduce this risk.
d) I grew out of the your so called "slave" class. Now I provide for my family and my elders with reasonably comfortable life. Tell you this : my father was from your so called "lowest income" group. Honestly, PAP built an infrastructure for all of us so well that sometimes we need some reminder lest we take things for granted.
e) GLC: look around, these are Singaporean companies hiring Singaporeans.
Politics is an area I am nuts about. I can only base my opinions on what i experienced and those around me. My conclusion is different from you. PAP might be tough. But I am alright with it
You are alright with it because you are one of those who is benefitting from
it. Many of us are not, and therefore, we are different from you.
There is now a great division of You and Me, the Haves and the Have-Nots,
the Filthy Rich and the Poor, the Elites and the Ordinary People, the Masters and the Servants, the Lords and the Serfs, etc.
United we stand and divided we end. Now, the division is getting wider
and wider. I won't be surprised that our close neighbours are very happy
to see that our leaders are working so hard to ensure that the little
young country breaks up as fast as it has built up.
Three cheers for our multi-millionaire money-centred leaders,
and three cheers for you and your kind too.
We won't be that stupid for long, and
we won't be serving people like you as slaves forever.
I NOT EDUCATED BUT I NOT STUPID!!! -
OKAY. We need more opposition members to help keep our country men together and speak the minds of the HAVE NOTS
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Cannot Tahan,
Should they get high pay rise? -
it a doggone reality liaoOriginally posted by PRP:Cannot Tahan,
Should they get high pay rise?
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An interesting paragraph from a book.
Abstract from Economics of the Public Sector by Joseph E. Stiglitz:
Government's ability to compel individuals' support of public goods, however, may also enable it to compel individuals' support of special interest groups: it can force one group to give up its resources to another group. Such forced transfers have been likened to theft, with one major difference: Transfers through the government wear the mantle of legality and respectability conferred upon them by the political process. When political process in a country becomes detached from the citizenry and is used to transfer resources to the groups in power, the distinction between taxation and theft becomes blurred at best.
These issues were of critical concern to the founders of the United States. The rebellion that became the Revolutionary War is often dated to the Boston Tea Party, which was motivated by the conviction that unjust taxes were being levied on the colonies. The slogan "Taxation without representation is tyranny" provided one of the central motifs of the revolution. Distinguishing between the legitimate and illegitimate uses of the power of taxation is a matter of continual contention. -
Taken from Low Thia Khiang:
According to a 2005 report by the Department of Economic and Social Affairs, United Nations, the Singapore civil service has some of the highest paid civil servants in the world. Our government holds the view that this will ensure a clean, competent and effective civil service. However, the facts show that other countries with lower paid civil servants are also able to enjoy such qualities.
Based on the Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) and Global Competitiveness Index (GPI), Singapore ranks below Finland and Denmark for 2005 and 2006. However, the governing of a country should not only take into account these 2 factors. A more important factor that directly affects the lives of every Singaporean living here is the quality of life. A survey that evaluates 39 quality of living criteria, including political, social, economic and environmental factors, personal safety and health, education, transport and other public services, found in 2006 that Swiss cities have topped the annual survey again, while Singapore, with its highly paid and thus highly competent and clean government, ranked best only among Asian cities but was 34th in the world (ST 2 April 2007).
Based on the above facts, it would be interesting to know how much the civil servants are paid in countries such as Denmark, Finland and Switzerland, just to name a few. According to a United Nations report, the Switzerland Federal Office of Personnel revealed that the basic remuneration of civil servants range from 55,000 Swiss Franc to 321,000 Swiss Franc in 2006, which based on an exchange rate of 1.25, is about S$69,000 to S$402,000. Good performers receive merit increments of up to 6%, while worst-performing staff may get a decrease in salary. Although bonuses can reach 12% of salary for outstanding performance, and residence and overtime allowances are paid, it still seems that the highest paid Swiss civil servants receive a lower salary than what Singapore civil servants and Ministers receive. (Note: they have neither a prime minister nor a president)
http://www.wp.sg/wp/articles/2007/0409_ltk_ministerial_civil_service_pay.php -
Originally posted by rane:
Would like to expound on rane's point... PAP cannot take credit for this round of economic growth, definitely not to justify their astronomical salaries.
Agree with you. Shucks - seems that their pay increment/adjustment does not base on their performance - rather it is based on the economy. Correct me if I am wrong. As politicians their main duty/responsibility is to serve the nation, so how they perform it is really up to the nation to judge. If economy is not doing well, will their pay be deducted. [b]Now that lee hsien loong claims that economy is doing well, is he going to give the green light to restore the CPF contribution to employees? Seems he only care for himself. He and his $$$$$$ ! In our hearts, we know if he is genuine to care for the people of singapore. 
Let's see what percentage of vote he will get in the next election. [/b]
1. The entire GLOBAL economy is doing well, not just SG. In fact, SG is NOT the best performing Asian economy, not even close. For the PAP to take credit is hogwash. In fact, if they want to tie their pay to GDP, we should benchmark our GDP to the best-performing Asian economy, like China or India. By this measure, the ministers should be taking a paycut, not a pay increase.
2. Our economy is doing well because 4 million Singaporeans made SACRIFICES and took a CPF cut in 2002, and for many, pay freezes and pay cuts as well. Until now, this cut has yet to be fully repealed. For the PAP to take credit for the sacrifices of 4 million citizens is a sick joke. It is like your lawyer advising you to spend less to pay off your credit card debt, then charges you $5000 for his 'advice'. Who made the sacrifice? YOU! -
if you think about it...in terms of economics...
opportunity cost- if a minister can earn millions as a surgeon or businessman or CEO, and he is very talented, if Singapore govt. doesnt pay him highly, will he become a minister???
granted, there are some who would not earn millions if they work in private sector. but we do need these high salaries to attract the top talent to form the nucleus of the parliament.
also, they will not succumb to bribery with their high salary. do u think they want to risk being kicked out of the gravy train just for a a few hundred thousand extra...which is much less than they are earning now as minster....
what do you think will happen if, say, Dr m/ sby becomes singapore minister??? -
Your argument rests on the assumption that there is a free flow of talent into the government, that the talent pool for politicians is a free market, i.e. without barriers to entry. Yes, if Bill Gates or any other CEO can come in tomorrow and become a minister, then ministers do deserve millions. The reason why private sector talents command such high salaries is because of competition for their (private sector) skills. Tell me where the competition is for politicians.Originally posted by unclebutcher:if you think about it...in terms of economics...
opportunity cost- if a minister can earn millions as a surgeon or businessman or CEO, and he is very talented, if Singapore govt. doesnt pay him highly, will he become a minister???
granted, there are some who would not earn millions if they work in private sector. but we do need these high salaries to attract the top talent to form the nucleus of the parliament.
also, they will not succumb to bribery with their high salary. do u think they want to risk being kicked out of the gravy train just for a a few hundred thousand extra...which is much less than they are earning now as minster....
what do you think will happen if, say, Dr m/ sby becomes singapore minister???
If you then argue that some of these private sector skills are also relevant in governing a country, name me a proven CEO who is a minister now. Please also explain why our esteemed MM and SM are not now a CEO of some MNC, or doing lecture circuits like Bill Clinton, instead of drawing millions of taxpayer money a year.
Gravy train indeed. Did it not occur to you that precisely because there is a gravy train, those in power now would do everything in their power to maintain the continual flow of that gravy, even to the detriment of the greater good? Who do you trust to run this country? Someone who wants to serve the greater good of the country, or one who does it for the money? We are not asking ministers to starve, but simply to draw a more reasonable pay. A Grade 16 civil servant's pay is about 350K a year. How about using that as a benchmark? -
Mah bow tan.Singapore News and Publications Ltd (SNPL) as the Chief Executive Officer of the Singapore Monitor. He was also Group General Manager of SNPL and Group General Manager (Co-ordination) of Singapore Press Holdings Ltd (1985-198Originally posted by Panache1976:Your argument rests on the assumption that there is a free flow of talent into the government, that the talent pool for politicians is a free market, i.e. without barriers to entry. Yes, if Bill Gates or any other CEO can come in tomorrow and become a minister, then ministers do deserve millions. The reason why private sector talents command such high salaries is because of competition for their (private sector) skills. Tell me where the competition is for politicians.
If you then argue that some of these private sector skills are also relevant in governing a country, name me a proven CEO who is a minister now. Please also explain why our esteemed MM and SM are not now a CEO of some MNC, or doing lecture circuits like Bill Clinton, instead of drawing millions of taxpayer money a year.
Gravy train indeed. Did it not occur to you that precisely because there is a gravy train, those in power now would do everything in their power to maintain the continual flow of that gravy, even to the detriment of the greater good? Who do you trust to run this country? Someone who wants to serve the greater good of the country, or one who does it for the money? We are not asking ministers to starve, but simply to draw a more reasonable pay. A Grade 16 civil servant's pay is about 350K a year. How about using that as a benchmark?
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Next you'll say that Ho Ching should be a minister because she was the CEO of ST, or Lee Hsien YangOriginally posted by unclebutcher:Mah bow tan.Singapore News and Publications Ltd (SNPL) as the Chief Executive Officer of the Singapore Monitor. He was also Group General Manager of SNPL and Group General Manager (Co-ordination) of Singapore Press Holdings Ltd (1985-198. I'll rephrase: name me one minister who is CEO of a non-GLC, or a previously state-owned company, that competes in the global arena. Someone like Sim Wong Hoo, maybe. -
sim wong hoo???? its besides the point. what does the singapore government look out for for a minister with portfolio?Originally posted by Panache1976:Next you'll say that Ho Ching should be a minister because she was the CEO of ST, or Lee Hsien Yang I'll rephrase: name me one minister who is CEO of a non-GLC, or a previously state-owned company, that competes in the global arena. Someone like Sim Wong Hoo, maybe.
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The Cabinet is led by the Prime Minister, who is appointed by the President, as the Member of Parliament who commands the confidence of the majority of the Members of Parliament.
On the advice of the Prime Minister, the President appoints other ministers from among the Members of Parliament to form the Cabinet.
The Cabinet is responsible for all government policies and the day-to-day administration of the affairs of state. It is responsible collectively to Parliament, and comprises the Prime Minister and the ministers in charge of the ministries of Community Development, Youth and Sports, Defence, Education, the Environment and Water Resources, Finance, Foreign Affairs, Health, Home Affairs, Information, Communications and the Arts, Law, Manpower, National Development, Trade and Industry, and Transport."
they look after you. would you want sim wong hoo to be your minister? eg. arnold swarzzenegger(sic) of california. is california doing very well? i dont think so. dont take the ministers for granted. they were and are still responsible for singapore's overall well-being. singapore is very well governed. are you saying that the pay should be reduced to 350k? ridiculous. i bet with you 80% of ministers will leave. and who will come in? chee soon juan? GG.
just look at our neighbours. lowly paid cabinet. what is their state of affairs right now? eg. malaysia. bumiputra policy. look at their country's state now. good? or not? they dont go by merit. singapore govt is meritocratic. and the best of the best are rewarded with high salaries. they in turn provide for singapore's well being. -
If 80% of the ministers leave because their pay is lowered to 350K, we all know the sincerity and quality of ministers we have, won't we? I'm quite sure better people of higher moral character will step in for that 'meagre' 350K a year.
Yes, Chee Soon Juan is a joke. But do you know why we have so many jokers in the opposition? It's because of the systematic suppression of opposition by the PAP through every means at their disposal. That is why. If you think that their methods are fair, I am really sorry for you.
Yes, the best thing that PAP has ever done is to keep the government and civil service clean of corruption. Many would argue that the line between corruption and self-reward is pretty thin though. I can give you a list:
1. Million dollar minister pay
2. GLCs and their CEOs
3. Temasek and its unaccountability
4. 'Elected' president
The list continues... -
i think the problem here is what are the qualities u look for in an MP? Do u need an expert surgeon to be an MP. His specialty is in operation n not diplomacy and more paper work. Will he be a good administrator? More importantly will he be a good MP who noes what the ppl need?
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emphatise with many of your points.Originally posted by Panache1976:If 80% of the ministers leave because their pay is lowered to 350K, we all know the sincerity and quality of ministers we have, won't we? I'm quite sure better people of higher moral character will step in for that 'meagre' 350K a year.
Yes, Chee Soon Juan is a joke. But do you know why we have so many jokers in the opposition? It's because of the systematic suppression of opposition by the PAP through every means at their disposal. That is why. If you think that their methods are fair, I am really sorry for you.
Yes, the best thing that PAP has ever done is to keep the government and civil service clean of corruption. Many would argue that the line between corruption and self-reward is pretty thin though. I can give you a list:
1. Million dollar minister pay
2. GLCs and their CEOs
3. Temasek and its unaccountability
4. 'Elected' president
The list continues...
This is one rare forum I come across that talks topics that are interesting. Keep it up!
I always have this doubt in my mind:
Singapore is known to be very little corruption ( there are known cases).
But as a person trained to think in a scientific way, I am curious what is the method that accurately, fairly, transparently, honestly, unbiasedly, measure how corrputible a country is?
For example, USA. To measure USA corruption, how can you know?
How can anyone know what secrets is hidden in FBI, CIA, Pentagon? It can be easy to know some secrets. But to be accurate, the measurement got to be based on ability to check on everything.
I am keen to know anyone out here feels the same as I do about this thing called check and balance? -
for all you know, she "qualify" to be the next "elected president"Originally posted by Panache1976:Next you'll say that Ho Ching should be a minister because she was the CEO of ST, or Lee Hsien Yang I'll rephrase: name me one minister who is CEO of a non-GLC, or a previously state-owned company, that competes in the global arena. Someone like Sim Wong Hoo, maybe. -
Well... maybe you haven't seen many jokes from the PAP gang because they are all trained to be "Yes" men?Originally posted by Panache1976:If 80% of the ministers leave because their pay is lowered to 350K, we all know the sincerity and quality of ministers we have, won't we? I'm quite sure better people of higher moral character will step in for that 'meagre' 350K a year.
Yes, Chee Soon Juan is a joke. But do you know why we have so many jokers in the opposition? It's because of the systematic suppression of opposition by the PAP through every means at their disposal. That is why. If you think that their methods are fair, I am really sorry for you.
Yes, the best thing that PAP has ever done is to keep the government and civil service clean of corruption. Many would argue that the line between corruption and self-reward is pretty thin though. I can give you a list:
1. Million dollar minister pay
2. GLCs and their CEOs
3. Temasek and its unaccountability
4. 'Elected' president
The list continues...
Listen to how Teo Chee Hean attempted to defend the ministers pay hike, and he literally sounded like a joker (completely cannot defend the hike)
Put a few more out in the open and face the public on their own, and very soon, you see many more clowns treating us to comic entertainment. -
Originally posted by UandMe:
Any innovative and creative way to boost the memory?
i feel so sad for our Singapore's ministers.
made so much finanical sacrifices, did so much for singapore...
yet get so much complains and objections from all u people for just a bit of pay rise which they fully deserve.
if u people still have a heart, PLS pls stop all the complainings now.[b]
4 years down the road, remember all the things they suffer, did for us, and to THEMSELVES today.
Let's all be united and help to vote these poor-earning PAP guys out of the cabinent in the next election ...
let them all return to their own professions in the private sector and earn their mega bucks
give them a chance to prove that they can be at the top of the earning chart in the private sector and let the future ministers's salary be pegged against theirs
they are talents, and DESERVE TO LEAVE the govt for a better life outside. [/b]
Otherwise har, as sure as the sun rise from the east, same old same old.
Modern technology , internet and videos. -
With world record salaries, broken by itself, this is a huge motivation for the winner of the next GE.Originally posted by unclebutcher:if you think about it...in terms of economics...
opportunity cost- if a minister can earn millions as a surgeon or businessman or CEO, and he is very talented, if Singapore govt. doesnt pay him highly, will he become a minister???
granted, there are some who would not earn millions if they work in private sector. but we do need these high salaries to attract the top talent to form the nucleus of the parliament.
also, they will not succumb to bribery with their high salary. do u think they want to risk being kicked out of the gravy train just for a a few hundred thousand extra...which is much less than they are earning now as minster....
what do you think will happen if, say, Dr m/ sby becomes singapore minister???
Will the next winner, if different one, also entitled the same super scale salaries? I think so. Super! -
ahem...Originally posted by unclebutcher:they look after you. would you want sim wong hoo to be your minister? eg. arnold swarzzenegger(sic) of california. is california doing very well? i dont think so. dont take the ministers for granted. they were and are still responsible for singapore's overall well-being. singapore is very well governed. are you saying that the pay should be reduced to 350k? ridiculous. i bet with you 80% of ministers will leave. and who will come in? chee soon juan? GG.
just look at our neighbours. lowly paid cabinet. what is their state of affairs right now? eg. malaysia. bumiputra policy. look at their country's state now. good? or not? they dont go by merit. singapore govt is meritocratic. and the best of the best are rewarded with high salaries. they in turn provide for singapore's well being.
No one knows exactly what ifs things are the other way.
So, i can only highlight, but not implicate, that:
...(a) France President makes S$160,000 basic per year (ST, Wed, 8/8/07)
...(b) High Salary maybe can weed corruption
...(c) High Salary maybe cannot weed conflicts of interests between Gov and People
...(d)Basic necessities are corporatized and privatised, and only profit matters, and more profit every year.
...And if you cannot see the relation between Gov (any parties, MIW or oppositions) and point (d), i also will have memory block too.
Anyway, a vote is nothing to the system. I am just highlighting about point (c) that needs Reflection, not until when people criticise. -
I Used to believe in Karma.
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I wonder if Ministers with their LIFELONG PENSION will be EXEMPTED from the compulsory annuities....
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hey, everyone is missing out on this most important point.
people enter politics not for the money, but to serve the people.
also, money is not the only carrot to attract top-quality candidates to enter politics. people also enter politics for the power it brings along.
being real rich still does not bring you the power politician has. overall, the politician can make powerful policy which may even bankrupt the super rich. e.g. confiscation of properties. that is the real thrill of politics, giving one the power of a king.
as for our ministers' pay rise, it is pretty ironic that PM and SM Lee earns 3Xmore than Lee Hsien Yang. Lee Hsien Yang is a top quality CEO, but yet he still dun earn the amount his bro and dad does.
this totally contradicts the ministers reason for payrise, that their pay is lower than what they can get in the corporate world. -
As long as sg'lians doon mind....Originally posted by deathmaster:hey, everyone is missing out on this most important point.
people enter politics not for the money, but to serve the people.
also, money is not the only carrot to attract top-quality candidates to enter politics. people also enter politics for the power it brings along.
being real rich still does not bring you the power politician has. overall, the politician can make powerful policy which may even bankrupt the super rich. e.g. confiscation of properties. that is the real thrill of politics, giving one the power of a king.
as for our ministers' pay rise, it is pretty ironic that PM and SM Lee earns 3Xmore than Lee Hsien Yang. Lee Hsien Yang is a top quality CEO, but yet he still dun earn the amount his bro and dad does.
this totally contradicts the ministers reason for payrise, that their pay is lower than what they can get in the corporate world.
they are asking for it...
by that....
I meanted they the people are asking for payrise.
(get it?)
kllbccbtlp lkyks.