RMAF MiG-29 can down an RSAF F-16 easily with one shot...
-
In one word, yes.Originally posted by brotherlone:You mean that a skillfull pilot on a f-5 can gun down MiG-29s ?
USN Top Gun Instructors have been racking up respectable "kill" figures in supposedly obsolete A-4s and F-5s against regualar USN pilots on F/A-18s and F-14s. Superior technology, aircraft etc can only get you this far. If pilots flying superior aircraft are poorly trained, complacent, have poor intelligence, do not respect their opponents, they're still dead.
There have been lots of real combat examples of this as well -
of course, like Viper said, its possible, but difficultOriginally posted by brotherlone:I dont agree with you
You mean that a skillfull pilot on a f-5 can gun down MiG-29s ?
i think it depends on both pilot skill and technology, both internal and external. meaning the capabilities of the aircraft itself and the support in the form of intelligence available to the pilot...
however, pilot skill also matters because more training and skill mean that what has to be done in combat becomes instinct. Also,I doubt if simulators can reproduce certain things such as the Gs of high-speed air combat... this means that flying the actual aircraft to combat will be a different feeling for the pilot ... the stress and pressure is also much higher in actual flying, especially combat, and all these will mean extensive training for the pilots before they go to war.
and to Oirschwarrior:
Of course no theres no offence taken, dun worry. i'll go check again but thanks for pointing out a mistake... -
I think saying a pilot on f-5 could hit any 4th generation aircraft is naive
the f-5 cant even tail a MiG-29 , in a one to one situation
the f-5 max speed is about 1.2 mach or so
the MiG-29 could achieve speeds up to 2.3
its twice as fast as a f-5 .. grrrrr -
Sorry, I think your knowledge of air-to-air combat is erhhh... somewhat minimal. Obviously, you don't know what you are talking about.Originally posted by brotherlone:I think saying a pilot on f-5 could hit any 4th generation aircraft is naive
the f-5 cant even tail a MiG-29 , in a one to one situation
the f-5 max speed is about 1.2 mach or so
the MiG-29 could achieve speeds up to 2.3
its twice as fast as a f-5 .. grrrrr
When it comes down to dogfight (I presume this is what you are talking about when you said "one to one situation", the flight paremeter is usually in the high subsonic (or transonic, eg. Mach 0.8-1.0 about 600kt). No one will start fighting dogfights above Mach 1.4 and certainly not in the Mach 2.3 region.
Furthermore, MiG 29 Mach 2.3 is a a quoted speed of a clean Mig at high attitude doing a quick dash (probably with full afterburner). You won't see MiG 29 doing too many Mach 2.3 flying. And F-5E (or S version for Singapore) top (dash) speed is Mach 1.63 and not 1.2.
Either case, all these figures mean nothing except when a fighter is seriously in trouble and trying to escape (if a heat seeking missiles (Mach 2.5-3.0) haven't got to their hot afterburner jet nozzle first)
All in all, given a very experience F5 pilot and a pretty inexperience MiG29 pilot on a WVR dogfight, I think they will be equally match if F5 is also carrying off-boresight missiles and the pilot is wearing HMS. In terms of airframe, both F5 and MiG 29 can stress up to 7Gs only and thus, tactics and who has the first look and first thumb on the button win. -
I concur
Those quoated speeds is the top speed of that particular craft with afterburners and with no payload
Only the f-22 can reach speeds up to Mach2 without afterburners
Without those afterburners the MiG-29 is also faster and could maneuver better, the f-5 wont be able to sight the MiG
About those quoted speeds its just one example how well the MiG could perform against a skillfull f-5 pilot with the helmet -
actually brotherlone this is the 21st century,it is not like those days
whereby the pliot is using bullet to shoot enemy planes down.U got Amraam around,with the advantages of fire and forget technology we dun need the missile to be lock on by the aircraft rather it home itself.So once the mig is lock on by missiles fired by a F-5,it will be the missile that is chasing the mig not the F-5.Secondly f-5 is much small then the mig it hids better than MIG-29 which is huge.then y do u think RSAF converted several F-5s into recon purpose y not
A-4 or F-16 -
the agilty of the MiGs are higher than the tiger.......however i will say the new radar of the tiger is better than the MiGs.However i agree with wat the guy in front states..........that there are many factors to weigh inorder to see whos gets the advantage.......therotically ....our radar ,training and aircraft quantity is much higher that the MiGs......however we must give credit to the fulcrums as they are generally new.........however as our tigers had when through a upgrade in 1998 ......i believe we are still at the compeititive edge.....but who is better.....hard to say liao..
-
everyone here thinks malaysia doesnt have the R-77...
ok thats fine with me.....
but,the RMAF have the R-73 short range AAM...
the r-73 is in the same class as the sparrow.....
and the R-73 is known to be the best in its class.......
so even without the r-77,RMAF migs can still beat the falcons....
(pls dont argue about the R-73......it is a known fact) -
Hahaha then y do u think there is Python 4 in singapore airforce inventories.U such Download the slide from lockheed martin website
then u shut up and stop praising the russian missiles
FROM:http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/our_products/strikeweapons/Python4/product-python4.html
I just LOVE the missile maybe those who dun know abou this website should download this and watch for yourself
Pls give me yr comment -
R-73 same class as the Sparrow? Stop humiliating yourself and talking rubbish if you don't know your facts lah. Nobody in their right minds will compare R-73s with Sparrows. Thats like comparing apples and oranges. R-73 is a within-visual-range, agile heat seeking IR missile while Sparrow is a med-to-long range Semi active radar homing beyond visual range missile. They were designed for totally different roles and operating in totally different parameters. The closest thing the MiGs have to a Sparrow is the R-27 (AA-10 Alamo) which is also a BVR med-to-long range SARH AAM, which to be honest, has performance specs and kill ratio more akin to the Vietnam era Sparrows rather than the much more modern AIM-7M Singapore uses.Originally posted by Innocent_Malaysian:everyone here thinks malaysia doesnt have the R-77...
ok thats fine with me.....
but,the RMAF have the R-73 short range AAM...
the r-73 is in the same class as the sparrow.....
and the R-73 is known to be the best in its class.......
so even without the r-77,RMAF migs can still beat the falcons....
(pls dont argue about the R-73......it is a known fact)
Get your facts right -
Originally posted by brotherlone:
Uh.... I think official F22 top speed without using the afterburners (Supercruise) is in the region of Mach 1.4, I think unofficially, LM has achived Mach 1.5 with the F119 engines and 1.6 with the F120 engines. In any case, no aircraft in the world can hit Mach 2.0 without afterburners.
Only the f-22 can reach speeds up to Mach2 without afterburners
[/b]
A common way to hit high Mach number is for a jet to climb very high and then hit the full throttle with the burners lit in a dive. You won't get many aircraft that can hit such high Mach number without doing such a manoeuvre (maybe except SR-71 and the hypersonic planes). -
If its true thanks for the enlightenmentOriginally posted by Joe Black:Uh.... I think official F22 top speed without using the afterburners (Supercruise) is in the region of Mach 1.4, I think unofficially, LM has achived Mach 1.5 with the F119 engines and 1.6 with the F120 engines. In any case, no aircraft in the world can hit Mach 2.0 without afterburners.
A common way to hit high Mach number is for a jet to climb very high and then hit the full throttle with the burners lit in a dive. You won't get many aircraft that can hit such high Mach number without doing such a manoeuvre (maybe except SR-71 and the hypersonic planes).
About MiG-29 vs f-16 or f5 its a grey issue , no point giving blind statements -
Originally posted by brotherlone:
It seems that you are very interested in the Mig29 and F16 comparison. There was this excellent article in the Air Force Monthly a while back (approx 2 to 3 years ago) precisely about comparing these 2 planes. Of course some things have changed since then including the avionics, radar capability and of course we also know that the SMT version of Mig29 has an enlarged fuel tank in the formed of an enlarged dorsal spine.
About MiG-29 vs f-16 or f5 its a grey issue , no point giving blind statements
[/b]
Anyway, in short, the conclusion (based on purely air to air combat since you are most interested in these area and I assumed you are not comparing them on strike roles), is that Mig29 is slightly more superior in slow speed manoeuvrability (around 400 kts), but in the high subsonic, transonic region, F16 is more superior. I think this also translate to F16 vs F18. I have spoken to my RSAF pilot friend about his experience fighting the Hornets, well he indicated that they usually do not slow down to fight them, the Vipers are the most potent when they have a lot of energy and their pointability being not as good as Mig29s or the Bugs / Superbugs (due to their better Alpha handling). However, with the introduction of 4 gen off-boresight WVR missiles like Python4, ASRAAM and AIM-9X, the gaps have closed so much that dogfighters today or in the future does not necessary depend on the pilots skills. It really goes down to technology and who has the first looks. It is when looks can kill really.
Thus, in an F5 vs Mig29 situation, and lets put BVR engage aside, if both are piloted by equally skilled pilots and both are carry off-boresight missiles, given say the F5 has either AIM-9X or Python 4, plus both have HMS, I think the outcome is equally matched. I think technology here play the key role, ie. the off-boresight capabilities of the missiles, the track rate of the seeker, HMS capabilities, radar capabilities and maybe a bit of tactics and a lot of luck !!!!! -
Since u got a friend from RSAF maybe u can ask the friend of yours to provide some detail regarding if RSAF is using Israelis Derby beyond visual range missiles in its inventory i m convince that many people in this forum would like to know
Well it is quite a rumour. -
Well...those who know, won't and shouldn't tell. After all, I think on a public forum, we should discuss what is public knowledge and not stray beyond those boundaries. Any discussion of rumours should be clearly stated as such, and not taken as gospel.Originally posted by Orcishwarrior:Since u got a friend from RSAF maybe u can ask the friend of yours to provide some detail regarding if RSAF is using Israelis Derby beyond visual range missiles in its inventory i m convince that many people in this forum would like to know Well it is quite a rumour. -
Totally agreeOriginally posted by Viper52:Well...those who know, won't and shouldn't tell. After all, I think on a public forum, we should discuss what is public knowledge and not stray beyond those boundaries. Any discussion of rumours should be clearly stated as such, and not taken as gospel. -
I just dont know why some Sings are sooo .........(censored)-RMAF has AA12 for sure.AIM 7M used by the FA18D + AIM 9S (the latest )while RSAF only used AIM 9J/P4.US wont release AIM 9S unless you buy hornet-that's a fact!!
AA11 + HMD wiil easily killed any vipers -period.Any of the RSAF missile could be fired 45 degree off boresight using the HMD???i dont think so.So in short -dogfight MIG29N could nail Vipers anyday.
Could somebody teach me how to post photos.Trust me-you wont be dissapointed. -
Uhmmm... Sorry pal!, RSAF already has AIM-9S, go check the FAS site. RSAF got approval for the AIM-9S purchase in 1994. In fact we also have the AIM-9M version (not just the downgraded S version). However, the M version are all based in the US for training.Originally posted by HARIMAU:I just dont know why some Sings are sooo .........(censored)-RMAF has AA12 for sure.AIM 7M used by the FA18D + AIM 9S (the latest )while RSAF only used AIM 9J/P4.US wont release AIM 9S unless you buy hornet-that's a fact!!
AA11 + HMD wiil easily killed any vipers -period.Any of the RSAF missile could be fired 45 degree off boresight using the HMD???i dont think so.So in short -dogfight MIG29N could nail Vipers anyday.
Could somebody teach me how to post photos.Trust me-you wont be dissapointed.
How do you know RSAF doesn't have off-boresight weapon, and please lah, stop boasting how good the Archers are. Don't forget, they are good but not THAT good. Furthermore, are you sure RMAF has HMS already? Go check your facts with a RMAF pilot. Or easier still, go and check any pics of the helmets the Mig pilots are wearing. I don't see any HMS yet!!! RMAF Migs are capable of all these but do they have it yet? hee hee -
If you just one those boys who find out info from the net -please ...
In this real time world -you got to rely on real time hard info and not FAS or FAX bullshitts.I really hope you could tell me how to post an image -cause unlike you -i've spend the last 10 years or so protecting my country . -
Please....whos the one using the Net to find info. Look at your own sources in you post about Malaysian ORBAT.Originally posted by HARIMAU:If you just one those boys who find out info from the net -please ...
In this real time world -you got to rely on real time hard info and not FAS or FAX bullshitts.I really hope you could tell me how to post an image -cause unlike you -i've spend the last 10 years or so protecting my country .
Lots of photos exist of RSAF F-16s carrying AIM-7Ms and AIM-9M/S. The 4 F-16C/D which came back in 1998 carried them at the press session, they appeared at the RSAF Open House again in 1998 and 2001. Photos of RSAF F-16C/D with AIM-9M/S have appeared in publications as diverse as Janes(UK), Air Forces Monthly(UK), Combat aircraft(US), Australian Aviation(Australia), Koku Fan(Japan). A check with the horse mouth(better known as US DoD) will reveal the 1994 contract for the RSAF F-16C/D contain AIM-7M and AIM-9S
Meanwhile, I've yet to see a pic of RMAF MiG-29s carrying AA-12. Just a pathetic attempt at deception by www.aeronautics.ru by showing a MiG-29N carrying a training R-27(AA-10) and passing it off as an AA-12.
Mana ada credibility? -
Why nobody tell me how to post images...why affraid of the truth???
-
Oh...before I forget. The Mach Meter, the base newspaper of the 27th Fighter Wing USAF at Cannon Air Force Base, New Mexico, showed a picture of a RSAF F-16 firing a AIM-7. And that was in 1999Originally posted by HARIMAU:If you just one those boys who find out info from the net -please ...
In this real time world -you got to rely on real time hard info and not FAS or FAX bullshitts.I really hope you could tell me how to post an image -cause unlike you -i've spend the last 10 years or so protecting my country .
And another magazine which carried photos of RSAF vipers with AIM-7 is Jets of France
Don't malu yourself lah...whos the one whos clueless and getting his info from the Net? *snigger* -
HARIMAU, we have solid reasons, backed by verifiable proof when we state a point. We don't go around saying we have this and we have that when we don't know anything. We do not have AMRAAM in Singapore, we are not afraid to tell you that. Why hasn't USA released them to us? Because Malaysia does not have R-77s, and thus AMRAAMs are unwarranted in the region.
Now, what i want to ask you is, can you accurately identify a mock up missile from a live one? Are you qualified in any way to make such a judgement? If you can't, please do not make such groundless claims, and make it sound like you have hard facts to base your words on. I know a friend who works in the RSAF, and he is an armourer. I understand that a mock up, if painted in "live colours", is impossible to differentiate from a live one.
BTW when you are typing a reply, look for a button labelled "Img". Thats how you post a pic, read the FAQ for more info.[/img] -
If still there's no ones could teach me how to post picture.well ...it really shows that Sgs are affraid of their own shadow.How well it might look if i post this in the 'other famous international forum'.
BTW what kind of bullshits you're talking about-i never doubt or said that RSAF got AIM7/AIM120?????I just want to show you boys -about RMAF weapons. -
Post lor...put your money where your mouth is...its going to be one of the rare occasions you lot have done that anyway...Originally posted by HARIMAU:If still there's no ones could teach me how to post picture.well ...it really shows that Sgs are affraid of their own shadow.How well it might look if i post this in the 'other famous international forum'.
BTW what kind of bullshits you're talking about-i never doubt or said that RSAF got AIM7/AIM120?????I just want to show you boys -about RMAF weapons.
You said "while RSAF only used AIM 9J/P4.US wont release AIM 9S unless you buy hornet-that's a fact!! " in your post earlier, yet when confronted with proof you sniff "i never doubt or said that RSAF got AIM7/AIM120?????"
Like I said, don't malu yourself without proper knowledge lah