Are ministers and civil servants doing more nowadays?
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The whole civil service scene is becoming an animal farm of sorts. Had George Orwell based his book on a certain South east asian country, it would almost certainly be this tiny red dot.
Squeeze the bottom and fatten the top. Perhaps there was reason to why Pigs were used as the representation of 'farm chiefs'. After all, the scientific community is fond of claiming that pigs aren't that stupid.
I see teachers working harder and harder today, then before. I see teachers being made responsible for student grades, class discipline, syllabus-planning, answerable to parents etc etc, things that did not seem relevant 20 years ago. And teacher's work has become a high risk job, on the whim of some parent filled with angst.
Yet those at the top continue to be paid top dollar when more incentives and pay adjustments should be given to teachers.
That's service and passion for you...the only thing the contract failed to enlighten is the pathetic renumeration. -
looks like BB watched Get Rea! last night
i was talking to my friends... there is a certain pride in the job which some have.. just like a few CISCO fellas where i used to work..
now, we all know how badly paid CISCO officers are..
yet, they carried out their jobs diligently and with pride..
when one CISCO officer was actually caught committing a crime where we were, we had to physically stop a couple of them from going to the perp to bash him.. they were that angry... in their words, he betrayed a trust and integrity... and they were livid that he would do such a despicable thing..
now, if CISCO officers, who are not exactly paid a lot of money, can have the pride to do their job with integrity and be angry at another who has disgraced them, why can't our ministers who get millions? -
Unfortunately, pride and service went out of the window once money became the centerpiece of their concept.Originally posted by the Bear:looks like BB watched Get Rea! last night
i was talking to my friends... there is a certain pride in the job which some have.. just like a few CISCO fellas where i used to work..
now, we all know how badly paid CISCO officers are..
yet, they carried out their jobs diligently and with pride..
when one CISCO officer was actually caught committing a crime where we were, we had to physically stop a couple of them from going to the perp to bash him.. they were that angry... in their words, he betrayed a trust and integrity... and they were livid that he would do such a despicable thing..
now, if CISCO officers, who are not exactly paid a lot of money, can have the pride to do their job with integrity and be angry at another who has disgraced them, why can't our ministers who get millions?
I really hope Singaporeans look beyond the daily propaganda and learn to wield their vote with more conviction come the day. I hate to see those silent supporters win out.
A stronger alternative in parliament, especially some with financial backgrounds, can only serve to scrutinize and bring balance to lop-sided propositions from the ruling party, where the current Chiam-Low-Sylvia combination are little more than background noise to the MIW. -
the only way for any opposition to win the election is when most of the pro PAP lao langs kick the bucket. most of them are still blinded by the past.
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talking about benchmarking, i think it was Sylvia who had a great idea...
the duty of a minister is to minister... that is to serve... from the least of us to the greatest of us..
and those who are up there do not need help.. those who are the least of us are the ones who require the most help... and we should peg the salaries of the ministers to those... so that the ministers stop helping those who don't need it, stop helping themselves... and do their job which is to help those really in need..
something like the average of the 20 lowest paid jobs in singapore and factor that by about, say, 20 to 50 times?
that'll ensure that the ministers start ministering instead of benchmarking it to unrealistic people like Bill Gates, don't you think?
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if they ever do that. i know the end of the world is coming
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I have already corrected my posts. I am not a civil servant. You must be then from reading your posts.Originally posted by greengoblin:Thanks. This is the part I want you to clarify. If you are in the civil service and you work the grounds there, you will understand the sentiments of most civil servants. We aren't getting anymore than you. In fact most of us are getting less and being squeezed dry by the top ethos.
Not all the civil servants are over-paid. I have given examples of this differentiation.
It is still the duties and responsibilities of our permanent secretaries who are paid near half-a-million per month to correct minister like Mah Bow Tan who is always thinking of taxing and charging people i.e. double-charge on lands already paid for by the people through taxation, by selling HDB flats at market values less look-good discounts wrongly called subsidy or market subsidy.
Mah did not apologize and will not apologise even if you ever ask him.
So people cannot excuse the civil service for such poor performance as a whole.
By the way is a teacher ($8,000 pm) or property manager ($15,000.00 pm) in town council overpaid if the private sector can consistently engage such persons for less.
Before asking people to reward these civil servants again and again who are already overpaid, they should endeavour to solve problems faced by the people for years. -
Check out the hypocrites..Originally posted by BillyBong:The whole civil service scene is becoming an animal farm of sorts. Had George Orwell based his book on a certain South east asian country, it would almost certainly be this tiny red dot.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/270006/1/.html
"If Singapore were to go down in the future because we're unable to have the best possible civil service and the leadership for that civil service in place, the people who would suffer most, the people who would be bereft of all the social support that they deserve and need, would be the very people who are at greatest risk, at the bottom of the socio- economic ladder," said Dr Balakrishnan. - CNA/ir -
Robert, name me the number of teachers who are paid $8000 a month. You really do not know your facts well.Originally posted by robertteh:By the way is a teacher ($8,000 pm) or property manager ($15,000.00 pm) in town council overpaid if the private sector can consistently engage such persons for less.
And if a teacher is paid $8000 a month, I will say it is justified considering the amount of work and heartache he or she has to go through. Teachers are among the most unappreciated civil servants of all.
If you wish to say that teachers only teach then I seriously encourage you to join the teaching profession and learn first hand what they are going through.
To get even half of what you are quoting there as a teacher's pay is not even justified for the work the teacher does. -
wah! $8K per month!
that's the first time i've heard of that rate.
my friend kena cheated, where did the other $6+K go to? -
Something I would like to clarify based on inside stories. The 'increment' is not of 'proper' proportions. i.e. The one on top is getting increments like 30 over%, followed by 20 over%... e.t.c. By the time the 'increment' is distributed down the line, the bottom ones are only getting things like 2-4% or so... Which is really not much difference from a normal annual increment...
In fact, the scheme just so well diversified the 'firepower' from public so that the ones on top are collecting their 'big bucks' at a much reduced damage... It also created an avenue for the public to rant and display their dismay with... i.e. the general civil servants... Not to mention that it's more likely and much EASIER (yes, people often just choose the EASIER ROUTE) to just FLAME and 'ATTACK' the ones at the bottom and more common folks like you and me... Not any easier when they try to target people 'on top', nor any more effective while doing so...
Selfish people who create CHAOs among public for their own selfish reasons... -
Your Chinese signature....Originally posted by greengoblin:Robert, name me the number of teachers who are paid $8000 a month. You really do not know your facts well.
And if a teacher is paid $8000 a month, I will say it is justified considering the amount of work and heartache he or she has to go through. Teachers are among the most unappreciated civil servants of all.
If you wish to say that teachers only teach then I seriously encourage you to join the teaching profession and learn first hand what they are going through.
To get even half of what you are quoting there as a teacher's pay is not even justified for the work the teacher does.
Lyrics of a song? -
Teachers no, principals maybe. It was reported before...Originally posted by greengoblin:Robert, name me the number of teachers who are paid $8000 a month. You really do not know your facts well.
And if a teacher is paid $8000 a month, I will say it is justified considering the amount of work and heartache he or she has to go through. Teachers are among the most unappreciated civil servants of all.
If you wish to say that teachers only teach then I seriously encourage you to join the teaching profession and learn first hand what they are going through.
To get even half of what you are quoting there as a teacher's pay is not even justified for the work the teacher does. -
Sigh I guess nothing can be done to change anything huh....best thing to do now is to miragte and never come back like what many have done before me....looks like the best solution...
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I do not need to name the teacher because that will become too personal. I invite you to refer this issue to the MOE to get a confirmation. Principals are getting S$10,000.00 pm while the more senior teachers are getting S$8,000.00 pm believe it or not.Originally posted by greengoblin:Robert, name me the number of teachers who are paid $8000 a month. You really do not know your facts well.
And if a teacher is paid $8000 a month, I will say it is justified considering the amount of work and heartache he or she has to go through. Teachers are among the most unappreciated civil servants of all.
If you wish to say that teachers only teach then I seriously encourage you to join the teaching profession and learn first hand what they are going through.
To get even half of what you are quoting there as a teacher's pay is not even justified for the work the teacher does.
For years the ministers have been denying people's speculations about NKF Durai's salaries and bonuses.
Were the people proven wrong finally on this issue. People are now asking them to be more accountable and should people's questions be thrown back at them? Is this what we have chosen the leaders for - to deny duties and responsbilities.
Very often the ministers would be challenging people with dares and other threatening remarks like in the NKF but when the truths come out they were found to be without no defence and yet they are keeping their jobs and asking for higher salaries.
This is the current state of our governing system - hypocrisy and denial.
By the way, are you a civil servant? I have answered your question but you have not answered my question? -
I think you over generalize. While there are schools with heavy load , there are also schools with light load. and dont forget theres is a 2-3 months Holiday? My friend is a teacher in a lobo school with long regular holidays.Originally posted by greengoblin:Robert, name me the number of teachers who are paid $8000 a month. You really do not know your facts well.
And if a teacher is paid $8000 a month, I will say it is justified considering the amount of work and heartache he or she has to go through. Teachers are among the most unappreciated civil servants of all.
If you wish to say that teachers only teach then I seriously encourage you to join the teaching profession and learn first hand what they are going through.
To get even half of what you are quoting there as a teacher's pay is not even justified for the work the teacher does.
Plus they are earning big bucks giving private tuition after school and during weekends. Where do you think the teachers in tuition centre come from?
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i'm in the wrong racket.. but my friends have told me that if i had gone into the MOE, i'd be terminated quickly because i'm actually advocating teaching the students properly
back to the topic...
anyway, don't take teachers alone as the "typical" civil serpent... there are many out there who are outright risking their lives and not even thought of as human by the general public... -
If we refer to the upcoming (or already current) wage scheme, teachers go into the service with a starting pay of 2.7K (assuming graduate-qualification).Originally posted by greengoblin:Robert, name me the number of teachers who are paid $8000 a month. You really do not know your facts well.
And if a teacher is paid $8000 a month, I will say it is justified considering the amount of work and heartache he or she has to go through. Teachers are among the most unappreciated civil servants of all.
If you wish to say that teachers only teach then I seriously encourage you to join the teaching profession and learn first hand what they are going through.
To get even half of what you are quoting there as a teacher's pay is not even justified for the work the teacher does.
This figure will rise with experience and potential. However, there is difference between qualification and potential.
Below is an excerpt from a blogpage:To understand how the system works, you first have to understand that performance and potential mean two completely different things in the civil service. They lead to very different, very distinct consequences in the official appraisal system.
Source: Mr Wang says so
For example, a civil servant may be judged to have very high potential, even though his performance is very poor. Alternatively, his performance may be judged to be utterly outstanding, and yet his potential may be judged to be extremely low.
Performance is linked to your annual bonuses and increments. Whereas potential is linked to your promotions. So Ms Ong Toon Hui is correct to say that those who perform well in their jobs will get bigger bonuses.
What Ms Ong isn't telling you is that those who perform well in their jobs may never get promoted. That's because promotions depend on your potential, and potential has nothing to do with performance.
His above statement was in response to an article by Ong Toon Hui (Ms),
from the Prime Minister's Office, which did not disclose the full picture.
In any case, CEP-grading goes into a teacher's promotion or career path.
Back to the topic, if a teacher chooses to continue teaching instead of moving up, the highest one can attain will be 'senior teacher', and these old birds will usually rake in around 6K+. But that's as good as it gets.
Those who choose to ascend the ranks must first qualify by virtue of workmanship, results or by simply being a 'scholar'. Then how quickly one gets fast-tracked will depend on how well your performances goes. A certain amount of diplomacy plays a part too, as stepping on too many toes will not get you very far, even if one is supremely gifted.
Principals and Inspector-of-schools are classified as 'super-scale' salaried base and will earn on average 10K monthly. Those higher up...well it's really anyone's guess. -
Thanks BillyBong for your enlightening post. Yes Robert, I am a civil servant and a teacher. I believe I understand about the pay structure of a teacher better than you .
Whether a school is lobo or not is not for me to judge. But I can assure you many of my colleagues sweat their blood to earn every cent that is given to them (and no....where did the $8000 come from I do not know)
If you wish to say senior teachers are doing less for more...then I will advise you to come into teaching and learn about the structure in schools first hand. Senior Teachers do not have it easy as they have to plan curriculums, school functions liaise with outside vendors etc besides teaching.
Principals being over paid? As usual please learn what they are doing first before saying they are over paid.
OF course there are always black sheep among teachers who do not fulfill their duties but most teachers I know are diligent workers who perform their task often without respect from people like the TS.
And of course to clarify...school holidays are for students not teachers. We come back to work most of the time unless of course there is invigilation for us to perform and courses for us to take. -
A "song" from Dreams of a Red MansionOriginally posted by Devil1976:Your Chinese signature....
Lyrics of a song? -
You are absolutely right,those PAP ministers,especially those PAP leaders,are a bunch of hypocrite.Originally posted by robertteh:You are absolutely right - civil servants enjoy the best of both worlds by doing less and less but are still asking for more salaries and more bonuses.
Most of the government services are nowaday being passed to some GLCs or private companies given all the right to charge lands and infrastructure costs all over despite citizens having paid for such facilities years back under taxation.
Duties and responsibilities of government are getting lesser with MND, URA, HDB, MHA, passing all kinds of duties to various agencies like GLCs and Management Corporations who would have to answer for their duties like breeding of mosquitos, or work site safety or breaches of security or others. Even immigration check were passed to landlords who could be jailed for so-called renting of premises to foreigners which MHA has failed to carry out.
Facts speak for themselves. With such reduction in their duties and works, Ministers have lesser problems and worries but citizens are being told they are the great talents who should be paid more salaries and bonuses.
There is no more fair play in our present system with the ministers doing lesser but able to engage in power game of promoting themselves and protecting their own interests. All the rewards are going to the ministers and the civil servants.
Morever whenever anything goes wrong they would take the easy way out by denying problems with the newspapers keeping quiet about real problems for years or ministers coming up with excuses as being uttered by V Balakrishnan or Yacoob to justify the civil servants' pay increases despite the people's dropping wages and indebtedness and all the high costs of living caused by unnecessary taxes in the face of all the hidden surpluses and profiteering.
The only talent our ministers have seem to be their ability to enslave the population, hypocrisy and blaming problems on the people or giving of quick excuses of one kind of another with problems remaining unsolved for years. -
I am sorry I offended you in my post. I do understand how the rest in the civil service would feel including teachers if ministers and top civil servants are able to give themselves 30% pay rise by comparing themselves with the lucky few in the private sector who happen to be earning their earn million-dollar salaries because of a string of factors and circumstances like touching of big sweep lotteries. Who does not want a similar pay rise?Originally posted by greengoblin:Thanks BillyBong for your enlightening post. Yes Robert, I am a civil servant and a teacher. I believe I understand about the pay structure of a teacher better than you .
Whether a school is lobo or not is not for me to judge. But I can assure you many of my colleagues sweat their blood to earn every cent that is given to them (and no....where did the $8000 come from I do not know)
If you wish to say senior teachers are doing less for more...then I will advise you to come into teaching and learn about the structure in schools first hand. Senior Teachers do not have it easy as they have to plan curriculums, school functions liaise with outside vendors etc besides teaching.
Principals being over paid? As usual please learn what they are doing first before saying they are over paid.
OF course there are always black sheep among teachers who do not fulfill their duties but most teachers I know are diligent workers who perform their task often without respect from people like the TS.
And of course to clarify...school holidays are for students not teachers. We come back to work most of the time unless of course there is invigilation for us to perform and courses for us to take.
But the teachers who are lucky getting S$8,000.00 pm (senior teachers who reached $6,000.00 pm scale who also get holiday pays and 3 month bonuses) should not just compare with top civil servants for they are many lower-ranking civil servants who are getting lesser. The adjunct teachers from the private sector are currently being paid at around $2,000.00 pm and not doing too bad in their performance.
Many people with equal or more talents are simply unable to get those opportunities not because of lack of talents or ability but because of not being connected to the leaders.
Yung Pung How for example, would not have become our chief justice due to his lack of practical legal experience at the time of appointment but because of sheer connection, he had been given the opportunity.
Now the truths have come out, due to postings by forumers. Ministers and top civil servants are not some supermen but are simply people given the opportunity to serve the citizens.
30% pay rise and 6-8 months of bonuses are simply too much and the truths have come out.
It is hoped that our ministers will stop promoting themselves again and again without basis.
They should let the ordinary people benefit from their performance first like enjoying lower costs of living and better services before giving themselves pay rise again.
It is not true that the ministers have more ability and higher talents than others. It is just that they are people given the rare opportunity to govern our country and serving the people.
They should irrespective of salaries and name without selfishness carry on serving the people with distinction instead of being engaged in so much money politics and promoting themselves. -
Teaching is not just a job. It is a crusade, more of desire to help others.
It certainly is not a career with the quickest way to riches.
Are teachers overworked? Yes.
Does increasing salaries going to solve the problem? No.
Teachers already could not cope with the workload. How does increasing salaries and quick promotion going to change that?
MOE should use the money to hire more people to help teachers decrease the workload.
Let the teachers focus on acquiring knowledge in the subjects they are teaching, passing on knowledge by teaching and explaining things so that the students can understand and help build tomorrowÂ’s society in a way that no other profession can. -
I agree with paying high salary for all civil service and all political office holders.
But....I read something good too on the newspaper, and mentioned by an MP too.
He said....if the pay is too much, will jeopardize the moral authority to lead.
Actually his argument was very well put-forward, and I think there are truths in it.
I think both sides of the arguments have truths in them. The need to pay well, and the need to maintain a close relationship/ or moral authority to lead.
If there is a way to maximize both, it will be best.
Meat Pao. -
A yes and a no...