Is local talent better than foreign talent?
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There has been alot of discussion about Singaporeans emigrating and brain drain etc, and on the other side, there are also discussions on the growing number of FT in Singapore.Hence, do you think that if there is a rising trend of Singaporeans emigrating overseas is it going to have a big impact on Singapore?
Can local talents be replaced by FT? -
I would say, there's no definite answer.
However, i would say our best is definitely on par with the best money can buy.
Whether they are willing to work in such a situation though... -
I work in the creative industry, and from what I can tell our best talents are getting snapped up by overseas prospects... so yes, there's certainly a brain drain going on here.
Unfortunately we haven't been taking must steps to rectify the main issues- and that's not that we simply compete with other nations, but because the very system of our nation itself, despite many "remaking" attempts have still remained an environment that is not really good for our creative talents to set their roots down.
These talents going overseas to make it big first represent a significant amount of talent and resources that we are losing, and of course, instead of taking steps to stem the tide by opening up our media to encourage creativity, the softening of censorship laws, and the willingness to listen to alternative artistic viewpoints... it seems that we have decided to take the easy way out by importing FTs that agree with our system to patch up the drain, as opposed to adapting ourselves to attract our own talent better. -
Globalisation is the talk of the town. FTs taking over jobs and singapore migrating to take over foreigner's jobs. Well, look at the bright side...if u can't make it here, then migrate...u'll haf a bright future.
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I think the harsh truth is that for Singapore to retain our best talents, the climate would have to change so radically that the PAP could never hope to retain majority power and have an influence in society.
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than it should look into retaining its legacy rather than power.Originally posted by LazerLordz:I think the harsh truth is that for Singapore to retain our best talents, the climate would have to change so radically that the PAP could never hope to retain majority power and have an influence in society. -
What sort of talent can you find where do you find them that can complement Singapore existing talent.Originally posted by Gazelle:There has been alot of discussion about Singaporeans emigrating and brain drain etc, and on the other side, there are also discussions on the growing number of FT in Singapore.Hence, do you think that if there is a rising trend of Singaporeans emigrating overseas is it going to have a big impact on Singapore?
Can local talents be replaced by FT?
I worked in private sector in singapore and had saw expat come to singapore and move out within a year.
Needless to say FT must need to adapt to Singapore enviornment process their talent to local needs before we can say they are contributing to Singapore. Those FT that have passing out parade after 1 year is most likely not able to adapt.
One of the aspect of FT is the abilities to bring in different perspective ideas, methologies, training into the existing plate. There are only so much a person can learn and absort and hopefully thru media like internet can make that reference and conceptulizes and execute to local contexts.
Our pool of skills profession in both collars are very specialized it serve a particular function of corporate or industry. Because our economies constantly changing n transiting so these group of profession may need to move out of Singagpore to seek better advancement in the private sector. To Re-tool specialist are mostly out of the question if age group fall between 36 to 45.
The other questions that i believe need to address are the source of Talent. If you look carefully higher education are competing for bright n top students. Similarly they are competing for bright faculty members. Institutions competing at a similar level. At some point U will find that the education experiences are going to produce homogenious candidates. So where to scout for talent and what sort of talent can produce result. and I am not saying we should go into the DNA sequencing.
talk later. -
Sorry to ask you.. Is this your Social Studies homework?Originally posted by Gazelle:There has been alot of discussion about Singaporeans emigrating and brain drain etc, and on the other side, there are also discussions on the growing number of FT in Singapore.Hence, do you think that if there is a rising trend of Singaporeans emigrating overseas is it going to have a big impact on Singapore?
Can local talents be replaced by FT?
My point of view is that YES, it's now a culture and IS going to be a trend.
No, I don't think this will have a big impact on Singapore. Why? Because when we losses our talents, the govt. is bringing in foreign talents. This is like a balance.
BUT I feel that if the amount of local talents lost and foreign talents gain doesn't strive a balance, it will cause the Nation, people and probably the economic to suffer because of the disorder in equilibrium of talents. -
And how would you explain the talents they have in America? No so long ago, they are all immigrant or FT isn't it? If Singapore government can provide the right enviroment to attract the full spectrum of talents from overseas, I dont see how economic will suffer. And if you havent notice, the population of "Singaporeans" are actually rising.Originally posted by Darkness_hacker99:Sorry to ask you.. Is this your Social Studies homework?
My point of view is that YES, it's now a culture and IS going to be a trend.
No, I don't think this will have a big impact on Singapore. Why? Because when we losses our talents, the govt. is bringing in foreign talents. This is like a balance.
BUT I feel that if the amount of local talents lost and foreign talents gain doesn't strive a balance, it will cause the Nation, people and probably the economic to suffer because of the disorder in equilibrium of talents.
I am sure people will still continue to emigrate overseas, however I am not so sure if that is going to be a RISING trend. -
well... my 2-cent worth is it will be a rising trend.
Ask urself this.... if you could find a better paying job doing more or less the same thing..... would you want to stay
S'porean talent is being snap up by better develope countries...... while talent from lesser countries will come to S'pore...... It seems this is the trend the whole world is going..... -
a) That is if you intend to stick with that same job for the rest of your lifeOriginally posted by hloc:well... my 2-cent worth is it will be a rising trend.
Ask urself this.... if you could find a better paying job doing more or less the same thing..... would you want to stay
S'porean talent is being snap up by better develope countries...... while talent from lesser countries will come to S'pore...... It seems this is the trend the whole world is going.....
b) I dont know if the are being "snap" up because of their specific talent which they cant find else where or isit because Singaporeans speaks english and they are cheaper to hire as compared to local.
c) FT are not necessary coming from lesser countries -
If u have watched "Beyond the dot", it showed local doing well in other countries.Originally posted by hloc:well... my 2-cent worth is it will be a rising trend.
Ask urself this.... if you could find a better paying job doing more or less the same thing..... would you want to stay
S'porean talent is being snap up by better develope countries...... while talent from lesser countries will come to S'pore...... It seems this is the trend the whole world is going..... -
You will never have great local talent. Any real talent in Singapore is bound to expand himself/herself overseas.
How do you expect Singapore to produce "talents" in a restrictive and nanny state where education is based on spoon-fed. Scoring in examinations are based on "spotting" the right questions?
How do you expect a "kia si" (translate: extreme fear of govt) society to excel, to innovate, to think outside the box? Hang on, "Thinking outside the box" is a sin in classrooms right. We are taught never to question, only accept the answers.
Some education, some naturing huh... expect Sing ed dept to produce talents, expect govt to foster talents.... NEVER!
The govt scholar are nothing but a bunch of uncreative admin person who probably only excel in following orders and doing everything BY THE BOOK!. The smarter people are just people who happen to be better at memorising textbooks - that is ALL! -
Just read an article from The Edge magazine saying there Singapore is become a people magnet and is attracting talents from all over the world. And the report also says that contrary to what many people belive, most FT are actually being paid local terms, not expat package.
I wonder why these FTs are attracted to Singapore while Singaporeans is talking about emigrating to the countries where the FT comes from.
a game of musical chair? -
Does this local package involve ICT, CPF, and all those other things Singaporeans have to contend with?Originally posted by Gazelle:Just read an article from The Edge magazine saying there Singapore is become a people magnet and is attracting talents from all over the world. And the report also says that contrary to what many people belive, most FT are actually being paid local terms, not expat package.
I wonder why these FTs are attracted to Singapore while Singaporeans is talking about emigrating to the countries where the FT comes from.
a game of musical chair?
Take one look at the scene one gets the answer quite immediately.
Is the FT being imported those that come in to fufill special niches that Singaporeans cannot/ don't want to fufill or are they imported because they are cheaper to run then the Singaporean?
Local package or not, FTs do not have to worry about many of the other things your average Singaporean has to contend with that applies only to locals. This means that when they get their pay, they really get paid instead of getting their salary siphoned for other purposes. Even if the FT and the Singaporean earn the same, the Singaporean is already at an disadvantage.
There's no way the Singaporean can compete except to sell himself cheaper and work much harder for the same amount of work. Given all this, why not become the FT instead of being a local worker?
The question I believe is this: Is Singapore a people magnet at the expense of it's own people?
Attracting FT is not a difficult task, but recruiting local talent is more difficult given one has to make internal changes to policies, living standards, and systems of thought... things which apparently the powers-that-be are unwilling to fiddle with. So instead of encouraging... lets say more creative talents to blossom in Singapore by loosening the restriction on media laws and the like and accepting all forms of creativity (and not just the sterile forms that agree with the status quo) as valuable, we decide to take the easy path out by importing creative talents from other countries who already had the advantage of their more uncontrained upbringing in a more liberal country and the like.
In fact, it seems some want to have their cake and eat it to. We want to excel in sports but make no real move to nurture such talents in our young, driving home the point that one needs to go through the route learning path in order to become anything. It's laughable our sports school would have rejected Fandi and yet we wonder how come we need to import FTs to make up for this lack of talent.
It is not a game of musical chairs, more of poision ball... who wants to be a local worker when prospects as an FT are so much better?
Do I have anything against FTs? Not really I don't mind them being around. The real problem is that the local is basically fighting with one hand tied behind his back when it comes to trying to survive alongside the FTs. The fault is not with the FT for being talent, but for some systems that are taking the short route out to our talent "issues" by trying to import talents instead of generate it.
Instead of having an FT policy that acts as a way of enriching our soceity and injecting talents that we do not have to help us grow in this area... it seems we have crossed way over into importing whatever we have just to make up for the lack, and yet not taking any concrete measures to make sure steps are in place for the local resources to be developed.
At the end of the day, can our own FTs really trive, supposing they decide to settle down, as valued added Singaporeans? Given our systems I think their children will end up being pretty much like us, and the talent orginally imported would have been squandered.
It's great the FT team helped us to win the Tiger Cup, but I wonder if their children, assuming they had their parent's sporting talent, would truly be able to follow in their parent's legacy in our kind of system and soceity? Or will they, after years of grappling with our kind of educational system find themselves just like another local... being told that they don't have enough sporting talent and that the next generation of FTs need to be imported to make up for this "lack"?
Or we importing FTs to enrich ourselves, or just as a one-generation stopgap that we must carry out for who knows how long at the expense of the locals? -
a) Does employer in Singapore choose a FT because of ICT and CPF? Is that really a handicap in terms of competiting for jobs?
b) CPF contribution is cap at $4500, anything above will not make a difference to regardless if you are paying CPF or not. Beside that, if you are PR you have to pay CPF too. Plus, some FT has to pay income tax back in their home country.
I am not sure if your perception of FT is they are always cheap labour coming from developing countries, because I do see more and more people from developed countries, some with HNW taking up decent paid job in Singapore. And that also explain why we are seeing more and more foreigners renting and buying properties in Singapore.
Personally i do know of a few japanese who have actually come to Singapore to look for jobs, not getting a job in japan to come here. Are these japanese cheaper than Singaporeans consider their living standard back in Toyko? Some FT might not have to pay for CPF, but they do have rental to deal with. -
The only FT that is better than local talents is in our political area.Foreign talents should be used to replace that useless PAP leaders.Look at Lee Kuan Yew(dieing old man),Lee Hsien Loong(Ah Loong) n Goh Chok Tong(Boot-licker),just look at them,none of them seem to be a talent at all.
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Please refer to a thread on this some time back... apparently it is becoming an issue with foreign bosses who set up shop here.Originally posted by Gazelle:a) Does employer in Singapore choose a FT because of ICT and CPF? Is that really a handicap in terms of competiting for jobs?b) CPF contribution is cap at $4500, anything above will not make a difference to regardless if you are paying CPF or not. Beside that, if you are PR you have to pay CPF too. Plus, some FT has to pay income tax back in their home country.
How many FTs actually become PRs? And if you are looking at the common job in which numbers is required, the economy of scale in savings will become apparent.
The problem goes beyond CPF, one needs to consider... all things added up can the Singaporean worker compete with the FT or is he already fighting with one hand behind his back.I am not sure if your perception of FT is they are always cheap labour coming from developing countries, because I do see more and more people from developed countries, some with HNW taking up decent paid job in Singapore. And that also explain why we are seeing more and more foreigners renting and buying properties in Singapore.
Personally i do know of a few japanese who have actually come to Singapore to look for jobs, not getting a job in japan to come here. Are these japanese cheaper than Singaporeans consider their living standard back in Toyko? Some FT might not have to pay for CPF, but they do have rental to deal with.
If you read my post you will realize that our main concern is not with FTs in general, but with the FT policies that end up at the expense of ordinary Singaporeans.
I can't speak for the most xenophobic Singaporeans but the ordinary bloke does not mind having FTs around who are here to add something to us that we do not have (whatever social and cultural differences aside).
However the problem starts is when the govt. takes this policies to its illogical conclusion by seeing FTs as a cure all and shortcut to all the things that we do not have, and start importing them for that very reason, but at the same time really doing little good for the ordinary Singaporean.
Many cases in point, I work in the creative industry and see FTs as a valuable asset, where they bring in a lot of experience and the like. However beyond that it seems that our system is unwilling to change itself to make full advantage our FTs by fully learing the lessons they have brought, because the change involves many things that they don't want to change.
Hence the benefit is filtered out from Singaporean soceity. We import sporting talents to improve our sports but have we really made moves in our own soceity to make these benefits stick? Or do we simply import more once we have made use of this batch? We import people of creative talent from countries all over the world to give our own culture and creative industry a shot in the arm, but the moment any kind of art or creativity that challanges the status quo is brought up, they are effectively stonewalled.
The issue is this: is this not a defective FT policy? We import talents but the common man recieves little of the good.
In this light, will not the local talent choose to be a foreign talent and recieve this benefit and treatment in some other nation as well? -
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
From what the HR agencie are saying there are now lesser expat bosses as compared to the 90s. plus if a company would to invest in Singapore, they must have taken the cost of ICT into consider when they do their labour cost projection, and is FT so much cheaper to hire? Or are certain foreign bosses simply racist?
Please refer to a thread on this some time back... apparently it is becoming an issue with foreign bosses who set up shop here. [/b]
PS. Do you have facts do support what you are saying or it is just hear say?Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
If a company needs to hire cheap labour to survive, they would have shifted their operations overseas long ago. And do you have reason to believe that the cost of hring a FT is alot cheaper than singaporeans and the MOM foreign labour quota is not effective?
How many FTs actually become PRs? And if you are looking at the common job in which numbers is required, the economy of scale in savings will become apparent.
The problem goes beyond CPF, one needs to consider... all things added up can the Singaporean worker compete with the FT or is he already fighting with one hand behind his back.
[/b]Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
Is there any specific industry you think has suffered because of Singapore FT policy that you would like to highlight for discussion sake?
If you read my post you will realize that our main concern is not with FTs in general, but with the FT policies that end up at the expense of ordinary Singaporeans.
I can't speak for the most xenophobic Singaporeans but the ordinary bloke does not mind having FTs around who are here to add something to us that we do not have (whatever social and cultural differences aside).
However the problem starts is when the govt. takes this policies to its illogical conclusion by seeing FTs as a cure all and shortcut to all the things that we do not have, and start importing them for that very reason, but at the same time really doing little good for the ordinary Singaporean.
Many cases in point, I work in the creative industry and see FTs as a valuable asset, where they bring in a lot of experience and the like. However beyond that it seems that our system is unwilling to change itself to make full advantage our FTs by fully learing the lessons they have brought, because the change involves many things that they don't want to change.
Hence the benefit is filtered out from Singaporean soceity. We import sporting talents to improve our sports but have we really made moves in our own soceity to make these benefits stick? Or do we simply import more once we have made use of this batch? We import people of creative talent from countries all over the world to give our own culture and creative industry a shot in the arm, but the moment any kind of art or creativity that challanges the status quo is brought up, they are effectively stonewalled.
The issue is this: is this not a defective FT policy? We import talents but the common man recieves little of the good.
In this light, will not the local talent choose to be a foreign talent and recieve this benefit and treatment in some other nation as well? [/b] -
My personal first hand experience came from working at the creative department of one of the major local companies as an intern (that I will not specify but let's just say it's a rather famous local company that is often brought up in the news).Originally posted by Gazelle:Is there any specific industry you think has suffered because of Singapore FT policy that you would like to highlight for discussion sake?
Basically when we were there, we were constantly told by our bosses to buck up as interns (drawing 400 bucks a month) as the company was in the process of choosing between hiring FTs or interns as they both were both very cheap labour compared to local permstaff. And it turns out that the working conditions were pretty much like a sweatshop, where they were basically bringing in interns and FTs as cheap labour... which was kind of shocking for that company given it had a rather spotless reputation on the outside.
And this was not too long ago, given it happened in late 03.
Second hand of course we hear from this guy who tried to get a job in a local company from a PRC boss, and was told to explain why he should be hired given the boss had to consider things like his ICT and CPF when the Foreign Workers were free of such things.
Have we taken steps to make sure that these things do not happen? Or do they still happen under the table?If a company needs to hire cheap labour to survive, they would have shifted their operations overseas long ago. And do you have reason to believe that the cost of hring a FT is alot cheaper than singaporeans and the MOM foreign labour quota is not effective?
The issue is that there are loopholes around this system, and it seems they are being exploited by certain companies to stay in Singapore and enjoy cheap labour at the same time.
Has the MOM been effective in fighting all this? I'm not entirely sure for I lack the data to find out. On the other hand, my mother works at this retail outlet where they make a habit of hiring foreign workers who come here to work short term as "interns". However the working conditions are anything but a learning experience-
They work from 10-10 (12 hours), do the same, if not more then the permstaff, and earn just 10 dollars a day (allowance). For the Singaporean worker this means that a proper job has been taken up by them, and for the foreign worker it means that they are been made use of.
In the end the only party that benefits is the company.
Has the MOM been effective in preventing this from happening? I'm not sure. Laws are dead but people are alive, and rather creative to boot. The issue it seems lies in the attitude of the system and soceity in itself.Is there any specific industry you think has suffered because of Singapore FT policy that you would like to highlight for discussion sake?
This issue is close to my heart. The creative industry, despite all the money and FTs thrown at it still has very little to show for all the effort. Our locals still find it a struggle to make inroads into it, the stuff on mediacorp is incredibly stale, and the stuff that we do come up with that is good ends up been sidelined or censored.
The irony is that we import a lot of FTs to teach and guide our locals and they do their job well, but the very system of Singapore prevents the FTs and locals from letting this benefits actually sink into Singaporean soceity and letting these talents stick.
Is that an issue with the FT policy?
True. I think the main problem is not that we are importing FTs, is that we are not truly accepting them as talents and potential value added citizens, and more as "you have something I need, give it to me and none of the stuff that I do not want.". At the same time, the system is trying to attract as many people as possible but not really allowing them to sink their roots without changing the status quo in the process.
In the end it sets up a stratified soceity, and one needs to question if it's any good.
In the end is the criticism of Singapore by that PRC scholar totally unfounded? While I do not agree with him on many of the points, he highlights a very real problem and issue that the system likes to import FTs and suck their economic benefits, but offer very little in terms of soul and country to them and the locals.
At the end of the day, it is the system that wins in the end. -
I think you are highlight cases of Singaporeans competing for jobs which doesnt not requires special skills and positions that can be filled by cheap labor.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:This issue is close to my heart. The creative industry, despite all the money and FTs thrown at it still has very little to show for all the effort. Our locals still find it a struggle to make inroads into it, the stuff on mediacorp is incredibly stale, and the stuff that we do come up with that is good ends up been sidelined or censored.
The irony is that we import a lot of FTs to teach and guide our locals and they do their job well, but the very system of Singapore prevents the FTs and locals from letting this benefits actually sink into Singaporean soceity and letting these talents stick.
Is that an issue with the FT policy?
True. I think the main problem is not that we are importing FTs, is that we are not truly accepting them as talents and potential value added citizens, and more as "you have something I need, give it to me and none of the stuff that I do not want.". At the same time, the system is trying to attract as many people as possible but not really allowing them to sink their roots without changing the status quo in the process.
In the end it sets up a stratified soceity, and one needs to question if it's any good.
In the end is the criticism of Singapore by that PRC scholar totally unfounded? While I do not agree with him on many of the points, he highlights a very real problem and issue that the system likes to import FTs and suck their economic benefits, but offer very little in terms of soul and country to them and the locals.
At the end of the day, it is the system that wins in the end. -
Is that not the main gripe? Unless one is irrationally xenophobic and does not welcome any kind of FT (at which I cannot speak for them), most Singaporeans see the value of foreign talent when they serve in roles we cannot fufill.Originally posted by Gazelle:I think you are highlight cases of Singaporeans competing for jobs which doesnt not requires special skills and positions that can be filled by cheap labor.
The question is has this policy been abused, in a sense where the commoner realizes that he is going into the market hampered by virtue of being a local?
Another question arises, and this is the crux of the issue: what is at the heart of the FT issue? What is the govt's motive for importing FTs and why is the common man reacting the way they are? Are Singaporeans really xenophobic (I find that hard to believe given we are a melting pot of different cultures) or is the commoner seeing something that they don't like in all this? -
Of course this then follows on logically to the next conclusion... why then are our local talents leaving and we are seeing this "brain drain"?
Simply put, given the chance, some people here see the solution to this issue of fighting with one hand behind their back as simply going someplace else where there is a more level playing field.
This is especially true where I work, where the common saying is that you can't make it big as a creative person in Singapore unless you go to some other country and work and either decide to settle down there or wait for the red carpet to be extended to you as a "returning talent" (aka. pseudo-FT).
But at the same time while we welcome such talent, foreign or returning, we simply refuse to take the step to make changes from the lessons we have learn from these talent, question a while later why things are still as pitiful as they are, accuse the local talent of being inept, and then think the solution is to import even more FTs.
It seems we throw more money into developing out local creative scene then Hong Kong, but yet have very little to show for it. And I don't think it's from a lack of local talent. -
What I am trying to tell you is that, the future for singaporeans is not about compete with cheap labour because we are worth and deserve more than that.
with the education we have, do we need to put ourselve to that kind of level to compete with cheap unskilled foreign labour? -
If u have read the report by a minister, the immigration figure has risen to 150000 n the figure will double in a decade.Originally posted by Gazelle:And how would you explain the talents they have in America? No so long ago, they are all immigrant or FT isn't it? If Singapore government can provide the right enviroment to attract the full spectrum of talents from overseas, I dont see how economic will suffer. And if you havent notice, the population of "Singaporeans" are actually rising.
I am sure people will still continue to emigrate overseas, however I am not so sure if that is going to be a RISING trend.