Singapore's SuperSkyhawk replacement
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well last fri Straits time got this article...wonder tt will interest to u all:
Fri August 30 2002 ST pg15
Europe out to beat US in S'pore dogfight
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above got 2 possible aircraft sg may aquire: typhoon/rafale
Euro Typhoon: Kicking up a Strom
Dassualt Rafale: The French Connection
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US companies have the edge in landing a lucrative aircraft deal, but the Europeans are giving them a stiff competition
I will quote some of the article says:
"Beside posting senior excutives to Singapore who are assigned full-time to spearhead the sales campaign, they are also offering "sweeteners", such as sensitive, cutting-edge avionics and weapon transfer of technology and training facilities.
Singapore has not revealed the size or value of the purchase, but the industry sources said it would be 20 aircraft worth potentially over US$1billion(S$1.7 billion)."
"The heat goes up as the shopping list is expected to be narrowed down to three "finalists" at the end of the year or in 2003.The final choice would be made in 2004."
" BAE Systems, which is a member of a European consortium manufacturing the Typhoon, has station a permanent representative in the Republic to take chargeof its Singapore export programme. So has Dassualt."
"The Europeans say they are selling more than a platflorm"
"One advantage that the American have is that the RSAF's current fleet of fighter aircraft are US made- F-16s,A-4s and F5Es- which ensures the interoperability"
"The other consideration for Singapore is the geostrategic and political imperative of buying mmilitary equipment from a close and powerfull ally like the US"
"A clear minus factor in buying US military equipment is its politically motivated arms export policy, which for example, would restrict the use of weapons like beyond visula range AMRAAM air-to-air missile"
"The policy also bans the release of source codes for combat aircraft radars, mission computers and electronic warfare equipment."
"The sale of European- and even Russian - aircraft does not carry restrictions" -
so guys...wat are the top 3 most possible aircrafts in the RFP?
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Couple of comments, if I may
"One advantage that the American have is that the RSAF's current fleet of fighter aircraft are US made- F-16s,A-4s and F5Es- which ensures the interoperability"
Thats open to debate. While the original airframe itself is undoubtedly American, quite a sizeable amount of avionics and electronics are not. And there are no problems of interoperability there.
"The other consideration for Singapore is the geostrategic and political imperative of buying mmilitary equipment from a close and powerfull ally like the US"
No doubts there.
"A clear minus factor in buying US military equipment is its politically motivated arms export policy, which for example, would restrict the use of weapons like beyond visula range AMRAAM air-to-air missile"
"The policy also bans the release of source codes for combat aircraft radars, mission computers and electronic warfare equipment."
Spot on. This is unfortunately a big minus to a country like Singapore which lacks strategic depth to "trade space for time" so that equipment which will only be released in times of war can reach us. (Like the AMRAAM, and US originally wanted the same for our Longbow radars until we said the magic word "Eurocopter Tiger")
Another point that the article failed to mention is the American systems are souped up models of older designs(F-15/F-16) or what many in the loop regard as an inferior design(Super Hornet) compared to the cutting edge designs and electronics offered by the Europeans
Can someone post the full article for this Singaporean in temporary exile? I can't seem to find it on the ST Interactive homepage. Thanks -
I'd go with Joe Black,Originally posted by duotiga83:so guys...wat are the top 3 most possible aircrafts in the RFP?
Typhoon
Rafale
F-18E/F -
top 3 i think is:
Typhoon
Rafale
F-15E or F/A-18E/F -
after seeing some of the comments at the Singapore at war pg42-44, i hav some comments if i can:
wel i admit my way of thinking of this competition is somewat a bit wrong.how?
1. Sg is looking 4 a mud-moving aircraft to replace the a-4su, not an air superioity aircraft.
Indeed the typhoon is an excellent aircraft, but its tranche 1
config which is soon to be in service, have a limit a2g capability.the Tranche 2 version will be later and tranche 3 is under a proposal as EFI is trying to convince the 4 nations to replace the bomber of their countries.
2. I have underestimate the capability of the Rafale. The french gov have no restrictions on technology transfer, therefore the integration of BVR missile is not a problem then, so is the WVR missiles. Rafale also can have a wide range of integrating a2g weapons, is onli the lasing pod mayb a slight problem of it.
3. Super Hornet indeed got a high chance of possiblilty in the RFP. the apg-72 is gd and is just in service with the USN. It also contribute a bit in the Afgan war.
Therefore in terms of a2g capability 4 sg selection in 2004 n delivery to the force in around 2006, the rafale have a higher chance of selecting it. -
i agree...rafale is a good choice.....same with typhoon....however out of the option i think Su-30 , F-16 bk 60 , gripen and super bug is a little impossible......
Su-30....advance C3i system...however too big...singapore road cannot fit it...
F-16... alemak if singapore will to aqquire another F16....i really dun know wat the govt is doing....using too much of the same weapon in ur inventory may be good for ur logistic....however...ha..easy to get pick of , if our enemy knows its weak point.....
F-18......ha kana trap in US strange foreign sale policy.....this is commiting sucide
Gripen.....i must well get F-16 bk 60......in terms of agility...ATG, ATA mode it is about the same...somemore F-16 gain war credits..
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Rafale....impressive ATG and ATA mode, did gain war credits(singapore govt love this type of war machine), somemore the french counterpart so willing to help our logistic and plus our share in advance jet training, i will say rafale stands a very high chance
Typhoon.......chio sia...impressive ATG and ATA mode.......dun have war credits...but being stated as the most advance Air combatant currently , besides the raptor....ok , must bear in mind that the Euros invest in the typhoon to counter the threat of the growing technologies of the russian counterpart......so by aqquiring the typhoon.....then if malaysia buys the Su-30...ha same story here right....
I vote for typhoon and rafale...but more to typhoon due to it slightly advance technology.( sorry eh i did not state their statistic facts
, but i think u all should know...... if harimau dun know...then i type in) However i will say the aqquiry of rafale is more likely as singapore dun always aqquire the best weapon.....they always aqquire the next best weapon that got more foreign support ........even thought Britain is likely to support our Typhoon fleet....the french have stronger bonds..in terms of their advance jet training.....
However i will be glad if they choose both planes ...to play will the northers....
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Originally posted by foxtrout8:
Actually F16 Block 60 is nearly a new plane, new frame, new avionics and weapon delivery systems, new radar (APG-68 AESA), new engine, etc.
F-16... alemak if singapore will to aqquire another F16....i really dun know wat the govt is doing....using too much of the same weapon in ur inventory may be good for ur logistic....however...ha..easy to get pick of , if our enemy knows its weak point.....
Other than Amraam, I think RSAF is well positioned to get some of the latest stuffs including the AESA radar. The other advantage of getting the super bugs is that the Super bugs are being developed into different variants, eg. the Electronic Jamming version, the Wild Weasel version, etc. Getting Super bugs *may* provide better value for money in longer terms if RSAF intended to expand the roles of the future fighter.
F-18......ha kana trap in US strange foreign sale policy.....this is commiting sucide
I thought they are not even in the race,
Gripen.....i must well get F-16 bk 60......in terms of agility...ATG, ATA mode it is about the same...somemore F-16 gain war credits..
I think it is hard to pit Typhoon against Rafale in terms of technology. They are equally matched if not Rafale actually beats Typhoon in terms of the following:
Typhoon.......chio sia...impressive ATG and ATA mode.......dun have war credits...but being stated as the most advance Air combatant currently , besides the raptor....ok , must bear in mind that the Euros invest in the typhoon to counter the threat of the growing technologies of the russian counterpart......so by aqquiring the typhoon.....then if malaysia buys the Su-30...ha same story here right....
[quote]
I vote for typhoon and rafale...but more to typhoon due to it slightly advance technology.( sorry eh i did not state their statistic facts , but i think u all should know......
1. AESA radar (typhoon still on steered pulse-Doppler radar)
2. Rafale avionics are currently more advanced. Typhoon will catch up eventually though. Rafale will introduce integration of HMS before Typhoon. Other systems are comparable though, eg. MFDs, Voice Data Input, touch screen (only on Rafale I think), ECM/ESM (I believe Typhoon may be slightly ahead, but it really depends on if you are talking about the German or the British version), etc
3. Conformal Fuel Tank - flight tested on operational Rafales.
4. Engines - about the same. Rafale engines have gone through 3 round or 4th roung of uprating, to the current M88-3. Whereas the Typoons only got their EJ200 engines not too long ago. Most of the prototypes were running on RB199 or the GE F404s.
5. Stealth. The RCS of Rafale is debatably better than that of Typhoon. In fact, Dassault did a study to indicate that Rafale is second to Raptors in terms of RCS. Of course, one can counter claim that the study is done by Dassault and not the EADS consortium.
So, I think they pretty much match up well. No one should claim which plane is more advanced. The simple fact is that Typhoon is designed as air superiority fighter, well Rafale was designed as a multirole fighter. The whole design difference was the root reason for France to leave the ECP/EF2000 project.
If RSAF wants a dedicated Air Superiority fighter, by all means, go for Typhoon (provided we can be assured of Amraam integration and delievery when the Typhoons are delivered, what is the chances of that happening - anybody's guesses) . But if we a multirole or deep peneration strike aircraft, I think Rafales or the Super Bugs present better options. Even the Strike Eagles look better than Typhoon (pre Trenche3 of course). -
I've heard claims that RSAF is looking for a predominantly air superiority fighter not a multirole fighter, although I realy doubt this, as
- Recent worldwide trends are moving away from single role fighters towards multirole types
- RSAF has always had a policy of having its combat types adopt a secondary air attack or ground attack role(ie always have some albeit limted esp in the 70s and 80s multirole platforms). Cases in point:
1) We are one of the few Hunter operators who wired up for Sidewinders
2) Same for Skyhawks
3) F-5Es fitted and integrated with Mavericks
4) F-5S fitted with multimode A2A and A2G radar
Wah lau eh, does anyone really think that the country that came up with the saying "Ai pi ai chee ai dua liap ni" will settle for a one-trick pony as its next frontline combat aircraft?
PS. apologies to all who are offended by, or don't understand the slang in the last statement...I couldn't resist! -
Ahya best la! if singapore acquire F-22 raptor better la(joking) .Thanks for enlightening me!regarding RAFALE IT is one fansinating fighter omni fighter
.If rafale has the capabilities to easily sustain at speed more than 1 mach without using afterburn which i dun think rafale has it 
.Viper52 no offense ok!! having a base in caux france does have the advantage of more efficient logistic support,since Britain is only next door across the Anglo-french channel getting an technical & logistic support is just as effective. .
I totally agree with u that if we acquire EF2000 we will be in a long Q from delivery.
EF2000 and Rafale almost share the same weaponary.I doubt any problem will be faced,european countries defense industries have common goal which is to grap some shares of the defense market from US.
AH...NO OFFENSE OK WELL I KNOW I M QUITE STUBBORN!!! -
f-22..u muz b dreaming man....e most ex fighter in the world.....
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If US allow export of the F22, then I will pay you $1000.
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i suddenly got this kind of theory...dunno can accept or not....
if sg wan 3 types of aircrafts onli, then most probably b rafale then typhoon replace by f-5 n f35 replace f-16
if sg wan onli 2 types of aircrafts in the inventoary, then most probably b typhoon?
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If RSAF wants 3 fighters, I guess Rafale will replace the A4s and F5s. F16s will remain, followed by F35s.Originally posted by duotiga83:i suddenly got this kind of theory...dunno can accept or not....
if sg wan 3 types of aircrafts onli, then most probably b rafale then typhoon replace by f-5 n f35 replace f-16
if sg wan onli 2 types of aircrafts in the inventoary, then most probably b typhoon?
If RSAF wants 2, I firmly believe it will be the Rafale and F35. The Typhoon is too concentrated on air-to-air, while the Rafale is much more balanced - The advantages are obvious in an air force which wants to operate only 2 types. -
Yes, Rafale can supercruise (flying about Mach 1 without the burners), so can Typhoon. However, their supercruise is just past Mach 1, read its somewhere in the region of Mach 1.1, wherease Raptors can supercruise at Mach 1.4 and above.Originally posted by Orcishwarrior:Ahya best la! if singapore acquire F-22 raptor better la(joking) .Thanks for enlightening me!regarding RAFALE IT is one fansinating fighter omni fighter .If rafale has the capabilities to easily sustain at speed more than 1 mach without using afterburn which i dun think rafale has it . -
Aaa...sorrie if my reply is misleading anyway what i actually saying,is that EF2000 has the ability sustain a speed of over 1 mach without using afterburn where else Rafale cant!!
That creep malaysian government just offended 2 large neighbouring countries PHIL & INDO ,now they want to reck with singapore again over some excerise causing disturbance to the Johorian.The malaysia is really a sickening asshole in southeast asia..a black black sheep man.....
NOTE:TO all malaysian here i m not trying say about malaysian civilian i m referring to your government and pls dun be over defensive about your country now they really offended many countries.
I HAVE NO INTENTION TO SPARK ANOTHER ROUND OF BOMBING HERE..
PLS DUN NOT REPLY THANKS
APPRECIATED!!! -
R u sure or not? First time i heard of rafale having supercruise.Originally posted by Joe Black:Yes, Rafale can supercruise (flying about Mach 1 without the burners), so can Typhoon. However, their supercruise is just past Mach 1, read its somewhere in the region of Mach 1.1, wherease Raptors can supercruise at Mach 1.4 and above. -
Orcishwarrior and Centurion MBT: Heres a snippet from the SNECMA site: "the twin M88-2-powered Rafale C01 prototype hit "supercruise" (supersonic flight without afterburner) during its first flight".
http://www.snecma.com/en/group/history/1975.php
It is expected that when the improved M88-3 is fully operational, Rafale can supercruise EVEN WITH full combat loads. So far, Eurofighter can supercruise only in clean condition, which is useless in combat unless you are low on fuel, have no missles and need to run away.
Orcishwarrior: You say "EF2000 and Rafale almost share the same weaponary.I doubt any problem will be faced,european countries defense industries have common goal which is to grap some shares of the defense market from US. "
Read my post carefully. Let me draw out the following scenario: The Meteor BVRAAM, which is the common weapon for the Rafale and Typhoon, is at the moment is due to enter service in 2013 earliest, unless the Germans play more tricks. Now, lets say Singapore orders the new fighters in 2003/2004. Allowing 4 year lead time to delivery(as per first batch of F-16C/D), we get the new planes in 2007-2008. That means that there is a gap of 5-6 years before Meteor comes online. Therefore in this time we need an interim missile. So what are the options?
Eurofighter has AMRAAMs, Rafale has MICA. Problem is: The US has said that it WILL NOT allow integration of AMRAAM for non-NATO countries which buy non-US made aircraft(US stated this clearly in the Korean FX program). So if Singapore is barred from AMRAAM integration for Typhoon, what are we left with? Skyflash or Sparrow. These are to be honest, 2nd rate missiles compared to the latest AAMs, which means, we're screwed.
Rafale? It has MICA, whether or not AMRRAM is integrated. The general consensus is that the active radar MICA is not only a rough equivalent of the AMRAAM, it is a more flexible weapon, being designed for close in to BVR combat, as well as being available in IR and active rafar homing versions. Combined with Rafales Front Sector Optronics, which are already operational, the Rafale can carry out totally silent(passive) BVR interceptions (ie the enemy will not even know he is being tracked and indeed fired upon unitil he has been hit), because the optronics does not require radar to be on, and therefore enemy threat warning receivers will not be set off.
What do you prefer? Second rate missiles(Sparrow/Skyflash) for a first rate fighter(Typhoon) or a first rate missile(MICA) for a first rate fighter(Rafale)?
PS. Of course no offence lah, everyones entitled to their own opinions and to post them here...just be prepare to be rebuted if someone else disagrees lor -
Hi everyone, I m a newbie here
Just wanna to add my point. While capability and performance of the fighter are important, bear in mind Selection of the fighter jets are base on a number of considerations that should not be overlooked.
It was already made known that the availability of technology for MLU and industry partnership with local firms are 2 very important factors to be considered. So important are this 2 factor that they can veto the choice. -
Ok thats it u win
If that's the case rafale could be better choice compare to EF2000 which main missile Meteor is still in early development stage..
Anyway i saw the footage of MICA Bvraam i m really fanscinated by it
being able to engage enemy plane at an angle similar to python 4 missile and that what i call interesting.Hey but EF2000 still has is more sophisticated compare to rafale leh....its engine has supercruise ability best of all its looks more "Whao" futuristic and steriod well i know we shouldnt look at it external view only,guys look at gal from external view also ma!!! -
Hi Seant,Originally posted by Seant7:Hi everyone, I m a newbie here
Just wanna to add my point. While capability and performance of the fighter are important, bear in mind Selection of the fighter jets are base on a number of considerations that should not be overlooked.
It was already made known that the availability of technology for MLU and industry partnership with local firms are 2 very important factors to be considered. So important are this 2 factor that they can veto the choice.
agree with that point. Technology transfer and training agreements are very important elements to Singapore's selection of new military equipment. Business Times announced in February this year that ST Aerospace has been given certification to carry out depot level maintenance of the Rafale, for some reason the news was not given very much coverage. -
Aviation Week & Space Technology/March 4, 2002
Singapore Fighter Race Begins by Robert Wall/Singapore
The competition to supply Singapore with the multirole fighter has begun in earnest, with six bidders vying for one of the jewels of planned combat aircraft azquisitions. Singapore initially plans to buy about 20 new aircraft to replace its highly upgraded A-4s. However, a follow-on order might be made to replace the country'd F-5s, although that program could result in another competition, industry officials said.
Singapore has been typically tight-lipped about the program, prompting often boisterous fighter makers to adopt a similarly cautious attitude. At the start of the competition, Boeing offers upgraded F-15E and the F/A-18E/F;Dassualt its Rafale;Eurofighter its export version, dubbed Typhoon; Lockheed Martin its F-16 Block 60, and Sukhoi with a tailored version of its Su-30MK.
The process of winnowing down to about three serious competitiors will begin soon. Officers from Singapore's air force are slated to perform flight trials of different suitors this summer. Three contenders are likely to be eliminated next year, with a winner to be chosen a year later.
Sukhoi, which is widely considered a long-shot, is basically offering the Su-30MK which has been sold to China as the Su-30MKK, India as the Su-30MKI and is competitng in Malaysia as the Su-30MKM. However, there would likely be some difference in avionics, according to Sukhoi's Alexandra Klementyev. The aircraft would feature both thrust vector controls and carnards, something that is part of mostbut not all Su-30s, said the company's Viktor Polyakov.
Singapore is already an F-16 customer and should recieve the first batch of its 20 Block 52 aircraft next year. The Block 60, which is being put forward for the new program, is still in development and will be for 3-4years. The UAE is the lead customer for the aircraft that features conformal fuel tanks, an AESA radar, integrated forward looking infrared sensor andnew electronic warfare suite. Although Lockheed Martinhas a good relationship with Singapore through the initial F-16 buy, one weapons contractor following the competition said the deal could also be a handicap. Buying as a new fighter one that look so similar to an existing aircraft may present a perception problem, he argued.
For the F-15E, the Singapore competition could represent a last chance to keep the program alive if the bid in South Korea is unsuccessful. The production line is being kept open by a USAF purchase of 10 aircraft several years ago. The first of these is now in final assembly, although production is widely spaced to avoid shutdown as long as possible.
Seoul is expected to make its fighter announcement either later this month or early next month, says Michael D. Marks, vice-president for USAF fighter and bomber programs. South Korea has signed provisional contracts with all four competitiors that also include Dassualt, Eurofighter and Sukhoi. The F-15E offered to Singapore would likely be very similar to that offered South Korea, featuring an enhanced electronic warfare suite and new radar.
However a loss in South Korea might knock the F-15E out of Singapore because of a line shutdown. Marks maintains this is too early to predict. However, if the fighter wins the production line would not stay open, but the pace of production would increase to about two fighters pewr month.
Boeing's F/A-18E/F offer would include Raytheon's new AESA antenna that is still in development and the Integrated Defensive Electronic CounterMeasures suite. So far the US government hasn't cleared the AtFlir targeting system for export, although that is likely to happen before Singapore makes its final decision. Any F/A-18 buy would be folded into the USN's mulitiyear purchase agreement and should help both customer obtain a lower price for the aircraft, said a program official. Boeing also hopes to find out before year-end whether Malaysia will buy the F/A-18E/F; its up against the Su-30MKM and MiG-29MRCA.
Although Singapore hasn't ask for a weapons package yet,yet, Europepan missile maker MBDA already has made its thoughts known. MOreover, the company is establishing industrial ties in Singapore. It has begun a codevelopment missile project with Singapore Technologies Engineering , said Fabrice Bregier, MBDA's chief executive officer. The company has partnered with two of Singapore's defense science and technology agencies.
For Eurofighter, MBDA plans to offer ASRAAM for short range AA requirements, Storm Shadow as standoff cruise missile, Brimstone as a standoff guided missile and the ramjet powered Metoer as BVR missile. The long delayed 6 nation contract to strart Metoer development, which is still waiting Germany's aproval, shopuld be signed this spring, said Alan Garwood, MBDA's chief operating officer. Asraam could be offered for the F/A-18E/F, since Australia is integrating the weapon on its F/A-18.
For the competing Rafale, MBDA will likely propose the Mica RF/IR, Metoer and Scalp EG(the french name for Storm Shadow), the Exocet AM39 anti-ship missile and countermeasures.
The European weapons maker will probably face the typical competition from Raytheon in the AA area-Singapore is already an AMRAAM customer and it would be offered the AIM-9X short-range missile as well. Offers are also expected from BOeing, Lockheed Martin and Raytheon air-to-ground weapons. The US government will handle the weapons package seperate from aircraft, said the US industry official.
The Saab, Bae System team of Gripen is not in the Singapore competition. Instead. the company is focused on East Central Europe where it has already won in HUngry and Czech Republic. The contract for Hungary has been signed and the deal with the Prague is slated to conclude in the next two months. MOreover, Gripen officials believe Slovakia may have an emerging fighter program. There are opportunities for the single engine fighter as well, but not immediately. Down the road, the aircraft will likely compete in Malaysia and Thailand, which is cash strapped and presently getting only very basic F-16 air defense fighters under a deal with Washington.
So far, the competitions are moving ahead without any sign that the end-or-the-decade emergence of the JSF is having an impact. In fact, even Lockheed Martin expects to be selling F-16s after the JSF enter production, said Dain M Hancock, president of the corporation's Aeornautics Co. The F-16 order book already reaches to 2008 and "will go well beyond 2010." -
for mi...after reading this..Viper52 wat u said is veri true and accurate.
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Recapping:Originally posted by Orcishwarrior:Hey but EF2000 still has is more sophisticated compare to rafale leh....its engine has supercruise ability best of all its looks more "Whao" futuristic and steriod well i know we shouldnt look at it external view only,guys look at gal from external view also ma!!!
"the twin M88-2-powered Rafale C01 prototype hit "supercruise" (supersonic flight without afterburner) during its first flight".
http://www.snecma.com/en/group/history/1975.php
It is expected that when the improved M88-3 is fully operational, Rafale can supercruise EVEN WITH full combat loads. So far, Eurofighter can supercruise only in clean condition, which is useless in combat unless you are low on fuel, have no missles and need to run away.
Have you seen Typhoon from the front quarter(from 2 or 10 'clock) view? Yuck!! The canards look like whiskers that have been unshaved for too long! -
Whao!! are u sure singapore has been offered the storm shadow/scalp by MBDA if singapore acquired Rafale
.If it is true i m looking forward to it man!!!Again when i 1st saw Storm Shadow at MBDA booth i say whao this one is huge yet a beauty
I even got some detail about it from french man he even gave me a bag of information about their varieties of missiles from Aster to storm Shadow anyone want to see it i will be grate and keen to show.Afterall i love sharing my collections