Alpha-S also wants to benchmark pilot salaries like minister
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legolas wrote:
If Alpha-S cannot succeed in benchmarking their pilot salaries it will be either because they do not have the talents or the ministers' benchmarking of their salaries to better-paying private sector is just an illusion or deception.
Alpha-S is taking a leaf from our ministers in demanding higher pay for flying A380s.
Let's see how the arbitrage proceedings go....will there be double standards? -
SINGAPORE: Air Line Pilots Association-Singapore (Alpa-S) is seeking to justify a pay rise for pilots of superjumbo A380 by saying that the larger aircraft is more difficult to manoeuvre.
Singapore Airlines, however, argued that due to technological advances, flying the A380 is not very different from flying other planes.
This salary dispute has been brought to the Industrial Arbitration Court and day two of the hearing was conducted on Tuesday.
In a retort to SIA's point, Alpa-S said "the advancement of technology in any field has never been used as a basis to quantify a person's salary".
The union added it is akin to saying that because a cardiologist can now depend on a CT scan, his consultation fees should be reduced.
SIA wants to scrap the multiple salary range system altogether.
Currently, under this system, pilots of different fleet types get paid differently – a repatriation model used by a few other international airlines.
SIA said "multiple salary ranges create differentiation which may inhibit teamwork".
Furthermore, SIA said it aims to continually upgrade its fleet, and if it does not settle the issue of salary range, there may be more problems to settle in the future.
SIA said as the average resignation rate for pilots in the last six years was a low 1 percent, the company could be deemed to be paying competitive salaries.
Furthermore, SIA produced a chart showing that in a comparison with ten international airlines, SIA ranks among the top three paymasters when it comes to the annual net income of its pilots.
Since 2001, pilots' pay has also gone up by at least 15 percent.
But the company, as a whole, is not seeing such healthy growth.
SIA may be profitable, but in the last five years, its return on equity is an average of 8.9 percent.
That is well below a 12.7 percent average of seven other international airlines which SIA uses as a benchmark.
SIA's average unit yield in the last five years was also 46.9 cents, while the average unit yield of the seven international airlines was 70.6 cents.
And with increasing competition, the company is unwilling to entertain the pilot's demands, for fear of further eroding its cost competitiveness.
Pilots' pay forms 34 percent of the company's total wage costs, and SIA assured its pilots that their current salary would not be reduced, and they can expect a bonus this year of at least 3.1 months.
The pilots are expected to counter these points when the hearing continues on Wednesday.
- CNA/so -
Let me see how LKY comes out to tell the pilots to shut up this time round.
He does not have any more moral authority to tell people to accept lower pay. None of our ministers, nor our PM can do that, coz all of them are GUILTY, guilty of just talking the talk, but not walking the talk. -
how come nv c cabin crew asking for pay hike one?
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Benchmarking will not stop with ALPA-S. Given that ministerial salaries have now been openly 'benchmarked' in figures to the median of the top 8 earners from the private sector, expect more GLC boards finding excuses to start giving themselves pay rises by a simple 'benchmark'.
Ethics and morality be damned; Singapore's evolution has just taken 10 steps backwards.
I predict a flock of money-minded mercenaries quitting the private sector and joining govt-linked firms. -
It seem that the media is adding to the fire by saying the company is not making money as compared to the rest of the company.
They are using the same kind of shit against a simple request of salary hike.
The old man and his cronies have set a very good example that talent deserves good salary.
So, the responsibility and stress undertaken by the pilot is very heavy even though they have more equipment to help them as they are still the one making the CONTROL.
Unless they can prove that the big bird are so easily flown by a kid, they are going to have no ground to ask the pilot to accept the lower pay.
But, in this case, I guess the easy way out for the pilot is to walk away and fly another big bird for another company.
It will be a pointless case to fight.
Either party would still lose if either party win the case. -
SIA not making healthy growth? when they ask for pay rise, they say company not making enuf profits. SIA is one of top 3 airlines for pilots' pay? typical try-to-mislead-type of tactic used here.wtf. typical response of a GLC.
There's a saying goes,"Its only either you want or don't want."
if you really want to do something,you will try and find any means to do it even if you cannot fully justify it.If you don't want, you will come up with all sorts of lame excuse to justify why you don't want to do it.
The first case is minister pay rise,second case is this pilot pay rise. -
To govern a country with the fullest support to reach full throttle broad-based knowledge applications by all citizens is more important than promoting only a few talents at the top.Originally posted by soul_rage:Let me see how LKY comes out to tell the pilots to shut up this time round.
He does not have any more moral authority to tell people to accept lower pay. None of our ministers, nor our PM can do that, coz all of them are GUILTY, guilty of just talking the talk, but not walking the talk.
The leaders in Finland, Denmark, Japan, Korea and China are now all doing the right things and are succeeding in getting their ordinary citizens at every strata of society to excel.
Our leaders are only emphasizing on their own talents and concerned only with their own success or surpluses so they will be fast losing their moral authority to lead their citizens. -
why can't they argue "if you don't pay the A380 pilot well, then the A380 pilot will be headhunted by other airline". Then SIA will have serious consequences becoz "unqualified" pilot flying the planes and if the plane clashes, then SIA will be in trouble having to pay lawsuit to passengers and the years of SIA company building will be destroyed.
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The most condenscending part of the airline argument on the opening day was that the B777 pilots were paid MORE than SIA Vice presidents.
That seemed to imply: Hey look - you pilots are earning far more than the us VPs, and you still want more?
They seem to forget that VPs and pilots are as similar as apples and oranges. -
If my classmates with same results get better pays than me what do I do?
Change my jobs or tell my boss to benchmark my salary to my classmates on the ground that I would otherwise be corrupted or he will lose my talents.
There is a common Chinese saying: "Comparing up I am not as good but comparing down I have more than enough"
Can't our ministers simply accept this fact of life that there is no end to comparison or keeping up with the Joneses. Even if some of our ministers are not earning as high as the top earners none of the ministers who have left or resigned have really been doing better after their resignation in the private sector.
MM Lee is only acting on his instinctive gut feel that ministers will become corrupted if not paid the highest salaries or resign to accept higher pays outside and none of his contention has been proven right to date. -
Wait for MM lee to settle..
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SIA is making decent profit hence, i dont see why the pilot shouldnt get a pay hike for flying the A380. If the company is making money, i think everybody should deserve a pay hike, including GLCs
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As someone mention,he is in no position to tell other talent don deserve a pay hike for attending more difficult task since they themselves is doing that too...Originally posted by soulwinner:Wait for MM lee to settle..
This is like trying to act smart but kill by its own tatics(Singapore Government)
More and more talent hired by GLC will all use the same old excuse and trying to get a pay hike. Now they know the pain.... LOL.. -
The old man just forced the peasants to accept their ridiculous blackmail of salary hike.
How to tell the pilots to accept the low salary unless he tell them that they are not a talent.
"No free lunch ?" "You want your company to fail ?"
Please lah, when the so-called talents are busy feeding themselves with a fat cheque without notable improvement in the life of the peasants.
Who is fit enough to tell the pilots to accept miserable pay ?
Dun they have any shame ? Have they done their basic job in taking care of their grc ?
No one is getting anywhere for paying cheapskate salary.
It will be a BIGGEST joke when the big bird arrives with no one to fly them, or some one not "talentedly" paid to fly the bird.
Would any one be comfortable be buying a ticket at all ??? -
The difference here is one is using the arguments stemming from the principles of a market economy and the other's using the arguments stemming from the laws of the jungle.Originally posted by soul_rage:Let me see how LKY comes out to tell the pilots to shut up this time round.
He does not have any more moral authority to tell people to accept lower pay. None of our ministers, nor our PM can do that, coz all of them are GUILTY, guilty of just talking the talk, but not walking the talk.
And that probably explains why those criminals who benchmark themselves on the principles of the laws of the jungle(ie.people who benchmark themselves against others from industries totally irrelevant to their field of work using absurd benchmarks) have little trouble "justifying" their pay hike, while other mortals who make a case on the basis of a market economy(ie.by comparing with international payrate in the same industry) find it hard to get a pay hike. -
the world's "best" airlines deserves the highest paid pilots ..... just as the world's "best" country deserves the highest paid goverment ..... -
why can't they argue "if you don't pay the A380 pilot well, then the A380 pilot will be headhunted by other airline". Then SIA will have serious consequences becoz "unqualified" pilot flying the planes and if the plane clashes, then SIA will be in trouble having to pay lawsuit to passengers and the years of SIA company building will be destroyed.
good one!! this is the first time i think pilot deserve their pay increment. -
wah lau
TS, never heard of the classic case
MM LEE VS THE PILOT UNION
GUESS WHAT HAPPEN TO THE RING LEADER
HIS PR STATUS GOT 'REVOKED'
as there is a singaporean saying - don't play play with the gahmen hor -
I hope the "new committee" after MM gives them a going-over will write one of those brown nosed kow tow letters again ... it makes for entertaining reading .... the balls-carrying was so thick that I wonder if some inner sarcasm was intended ... but then again, when someone hold you by your balls ... I guess not ... -
nothing will change. now all this GLC coy employ ppl on contract terms.
so to say most of this "flyer" can do nothing. -
Originally posted by BillyBong:Benchmarking will not stop with ALPA-S. Given that ministerial salaries have now been openly 'benchmarked' in figures to the median of the top 8 earners from the private sector, expect more GLC boards finding excuses to start giving themselves pay rises by a simple 'benchmark'.
Ethics and morality be damned; Singapore's evolution has just taken 10 steps backwards.
I predict a flock of money-minded mercenaries quitting the private sector and joining govt-linked firms.
The 'flock of money-minded mercenaries quitting the private sector and joining govt-linked firms' are the talented ones that this government has been seeking, but could not - prior to the atrocious wage levels being further raised.Originally posted by BillyBong:The most condenscending part of the airline argument on the opening day was that the B777 pilots were paid MORE than SIA Vice presidents.
That seemed to imply: Hey look - you pilots are earning far more than the us VPs, and you still want more?
They seem to forget that VPs and pilots are as similar as apples and oranges.
These are the worms hidden in the rotten woodwork and will only answer the call to another rotting wooden structure.
While ALPA-S claim more responsiblity due to higher passenger loads with the larger Airbus A380 aircrafts, SIA's management had been ingenious to claim that pilots remunerations will far exceed that of its Vice-Presidents.
Those SIA Vice-Presidents should benchmark their salary to the Minister's - as they all lead by sitting on their butt and think of creative reasons to control the wages of those who will actually be doing all the work. -
Contrary to popular opinion, SIA's pay for all its employees has been largely under the industry average say if we compare SIA vs Qantas or BA.
However, pilot pay is subjected to international competition and thus naturally it will be closer to the industry average. There's also the issue that some of the pilots aren't local. You can be certain they will pack up and go if the pay else where is better -
SINGAPORE, April 25 (Reuters) - Singapore Airlines is underperforming its major rivals in terms of yields, margins and return on equity, a report in the Business Times said on Wednesday.
The paper quoted the airline's vice-president for industrial relations, Loh Oun Hean, who painted a bleak picture of the state-controlled airline's prospects at the Industrial Arbitration Court (IAC).
Singapore Air and its pilots have been in a protracted wage dispute.
The world's largest airline by market value said its pilot salary structures are multiple, complex, tied to aircraft type and have resulted in rigidity of deployment of resources.
A survey of 29 airlines including Cathay Pacific , British Airways , Qantas , and others showed the pay of Singapore Air pilots equalled that of pilots at 23 of these airlines.
The report said Singapore Air had the lowest overall unit cost at 45.2 Singapore cents per capacity tonne km (CTK) versus 66.8 Singapore cents among its peers over the past five years.
The airline's yield-to-cost ratio was 1.7 cents, versus 3.8 cents for the benchmarked group. Its operating margin was 5.6 per cent, versus the benchmark average of 7.7 per cent. And net ROE was 8.9 per cent versus 12.7 per cent for the group.
The airline had the lowest return on equity among its peers and its wage costs account for 50 to 60 per cent of controllable costs, the report said.
Singapore Air chalked up a 50 percent rise in net earnings to S$1.458 billion ($963.6 million) for the nine months to Dec. 31, 2006. ($1=1.513 Singapore dollar) -
here we go again. Same old strategy. Give lots of shit info to justify themselves, before they cut people's pay.Originally posted by soul_rage:SINGAPORE, April 25 (Reuters) - Singapore Airlines is underperforming its major rivals in terms of yields, margins and return on equity, a report in the Business Times said on Wednesday.
The paper quoted the airline's vice-president for industrial relations, Loh Oun Hean, who painted a bleak picture of the state-controlled airline's prospects at the Industrial Arbitration Court (IAC).