Alpha-S also wants to benchmark pilot salaries like minister
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Maybe they will use the sense of proportion argument like MM.
Bigger airplanes, more salary lor.
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Sad day for Singapore when leader can revoke PR or citizenship with impunity and with such double standards in determining how much salary increments to give themselves or the SIA pilots.Originally posted by allentyb:wah lau
TS, never heard of the classic case
MM LEE VS THE PILOT UNION
GUESS WHAT HAPPEN TO THE RING LEADER
HIS PR STATUS GOT 'REVOKED'
as there is a singaporean saying - don't play play with the gahmen hor -
Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security. -Benjamin franklinOriginally posted by robertteh:Sad day for Singapore when leader can revoke PR or citizenship with such double standards in determining how much salary increments to give themselves or the SIA pilots.
The citizens also have the power to revoke the leader. -
well come to the sad days of singaporeOriginally posted by robertteh:Sad day for Singapore when leader can revoke PR or citizenship with impunity and with such double standards in determining how much salary increments to give themselves or the SIA pilots. -
Er... that is the Pilot's argument for larger salary...Originally posted by charlize:Maybe they will use the sense of proportion argument like MM.
Bigger airplanes, more salary lor. -
Very contradicting govenment agenda regarding minister pay hike.
The pay is not the factor that few wants to serve. It is the problem over inspiring the new generation to burden themselves with the yoke of holding the reins.
Despite better technologies, bigger mass, A380 is different in design. Newer and more sophisticated doesn't mean better. It just mean that it can do more things. So more skills & knowledge are required to handle the machinery. Therefore paying them higher on those handling these equipment is reasonable. -
Yes, yes.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Er... that is the Pilot's argument for larger salary...
The "they" are the pilots. -
The Airbus A380 uses similar controls to the rest of the Airbus fleet which SIA maintain. In fact, the older B744 which SIA has is far harder to fly than the newer A380.Originally posted by MS:Very contradicting govenment agenda regarding minister pay hike.
The pay is not the factor that few wants to serve. It is the problem over inspiring the new generation to burden themselves with the yoke of holding the reins.
Despite better technologies, bigger mass, A380 is different in design. Newer and more sophisticated doesn't mean better. It just mean that it can do more things. So more skills & knowledge are required to handle the machinery. Therefore paying them higher on those handling these equipment is reasonable. -
But then again, the people at the top will tell you with a straight face not to link government salaries with pilots' salaries.Originally posted by MS:Very contradicting govenment agenda regarding minister pay hike.
The pay is not the factor that few wants to serve. It is the problem over inspiring the new generation to burden themselves with the yoke of holding the reins.
Despite better technologies, bigger mass, A380 is different in design. Newer and more sophisticated doesn't mean better. It just mean that it can do more things. So more skills & knowledge are required to handle the machinery. Therefore paying them higher on those handling these equipment is reasonable.
Just like not linking the government salary hike to financial assistance given to the poor. -
in the context of our 'beloved' mm "pay the damn flying b@stards!! they deserve it because they fly the best airline, other airline pilots are mediocre!!"
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hehe, it also occurs to me that should the pilots lose this battle, and their pay get cut, few things will happen
(1) Good pilots will leave and join other airlines
(2) Newbies are promoted faster than normal to captain a plane
To me, its reasonable to deduce that the safety of SIA is at risk, and I better avoid SIA when I fly in the near future
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Originally posted by soul_rage:
greedy pilots taking cue from MIW
SINGAPORE: Air Line Pilots Association-Singapore (Alpa-S) is seeking to justify a pay rise for pilots of superjumbo A380 by saying that the larger aircraft is more difficult to manoeuvre.
Singapore Airlines, however, argued that due to technological advances, flying the A380 is not very different from flying other planes.
This salary dispute has been brought to the Industrial Arbitration Court and day two of the hearing was conducted on Tuesday.
In a retort to SIA's point, Alpa-S said "the advancement of technology in any field has never been used as a basis to quantify a person's salary".
The union added it is akin to saying that because a cardiologist can now depend on a CT scan, his consultation fees should be reduced.
SIA wants to scrap the multiple salary range system altogether.
Currently, under this system, pilots of different fleet types get paid differently – a repatriation model used by a few other international airlines.
SIA said "multiple salary ranges create differentiation which may inhibit teamwork".
Furthermore, SIA said it aims to continually upgrade its fleet, and if it does not settle the issue of salary range, there may be more problems to settle in the future.
[b]SIA said as the average resignation rate for pilots in the last six years was a low 1 percent, the company could be deemed to be paying competitive salaries.
Furthermore, SIA produced a chart showing that in a comparison with ten international airlines, SIA ranks among the top three paymasters when it comes to the annual net income of its pilots.
Since 2001, pilots' pay has also gone up by at least 15 percent.
But the company, as a whole, is not seeing such healthy growth.
SIA may be profitable, but in the last five years, its return on equity is an average of 8.9 percent.
That is well below a 12.7 percent average of seven other international airlines which SIA uses as a benchmark.
SIA's average unit yield in the last five years was also 46.9 cents, while the average unit yield of the seven international airlines was 70.6 cents.
And with increasing competition, the company is unwilling to entertain the pilot's demands, for fear of further eroding its cost competitiveness.
Pilots' pay forms 34 percent of the company's total wage costs, and SIA assured its pilots that their current salary would not be reduced, and they can expect a bonus this year of at least 3.1 months.
The pilots are expected to counter these points when the hearing continues on Wednesday.
- CNA/so
[/b]
ask them go fly kite instead
find another airline willing to pay them a higher salary -
Is it not typical to pay the top the highest possible obscene pay, so that he can think of ways to cut all possible costs of all stratas below his level so as to make it profitable ?Originally posted by soul_rage:SINGAPORE, April 25 (Reuters) - Singapore Airlines is underperforming its major rivals in terms of yields, margins and return on equity, a report in the Business Times said on Wednesday.
The paper quoted the airline's vice-president for industrial relations, Loh Oun Hean, who painted a bleak picture of the state-controlled airline's prospects at the Industrial Arbitration Court (IAC).
Singapore Air and its pilots have been in a protracted wage dispute.
The world's largest airline by market value said its pilot salary structures are multiple, complex, tied to aircraft type and have resulted in rigidity of deployment of resources.
A survey of 29 airlines including Cathay Pacific , British Airways , Qantas , and others showed the pay of Singapore Air pilots equalled that of pilots at 23 of these airlines.
The report said Singapore Air had the lowest overall unit cost at 45.2 Singapore cents per capacity tonne km (CTK) versus 66.8 Singapore cents among its peers over the past five years.
The airline's yield-to-cost ratio was 1.7 cents, versus 3.8 cents for the benchmarked group. Its operating margin was 5.6 per cent, versus the benchmark average of 7.7 per cent. And net ROE was 8.9 per cent versus 12.7 per cent for the group.
The airline had the lowest return on equity among its peers and its wage costs account for 50 to 60 per cent of controllable costs, the report said.
Singapore Air chalked up a 50 percent rise in net earnings to S$1.458 billion ($963.6 million) for the nine months to Dec. 31, 2006. ($1=1.513 Singapore dollar)
What is the cost of the top level management as a percentage to the total wage bill, and comparing it to the man hours of productive activity that will generate profit measurable in units of currency ?
It will be obvious that those at the bottom levels put together will produce a higher productive output that generate most of the profit in the organisation compared to any that can be measured from those at the top levels.
Sadly, management always justify their high wages and will always attempt to cut the costs of those at the bottom, whose combined total will weigh heavier.
Unfortunately, short sighted management will fail to recognise that it is the combined effort of those at the bottom that generate the profit output from the total economic enterprise. -
I hope the pilots win this case.
Then we will see the next round for bus drivers:
"Double-decker bus drivers demand more pay", because it is more difficult to manoeuvre and more life is at stakes. -
Seriously, I support the pilots
The argument that better technology equals "cut your pay" is really the 1st time I have heard of such rubbish.
Like they said, we should cut all surgeons' pay since technology advancement has help them in their job.
Similarly, cut the ministers' pay since IT now allows them to gather statistics/make decisions easier?
I am interested to see who's PR status is revoked this time by our petty and short-sighted govt. -
Excepting the very top tier management, where you have the board of directors and the CEO and his right hand men, most of SIA earns less than their counterparts in other airlines. Quite a few of local stewardesses head for other airlines if offered the chance.Originally posted by rojak12:I hope the pilots win this case.
Then we will see the next round for bus drivers:
"Double-decker bus drivers demand more pay", because it is more difficult to manoeuvre and more life is at stakes.
And though the news mentions VP, this VP rank in question isn't exactly the very top but a few steps below.
The only reason why the pilots are having such high pay relative to them is because our local pool of pilots is low hence they resort to attracting foreign pilots.
Though, there;s likely a lot that doesn't meet the eye here. -
How is it cut their pay? They want pilots who fly the A380 to earn more money than their counterparts who fly the rest of the fleet. Flying an A380 is no different from flying an A340 which uses similar avionics.Originally posted by soul_rage:Seriously, I support the pilots
The argument that better technology equals "cut your pay" is really the 1st time I have heard of such rubbish.
Like they said, we should cut all surgeons' pay since technology advancement has help them in their job.
Similarly, cut the ministers' pay since IT now allows them to gather statistics/make decisions easier?
I am interested to see who's PR status is revoked this time by our petty and short-sighted govt.
There is no cut in pay. Rather they want to cap it. -
I think those flying small crop-dusters not those piloting the 380 should get the highest pay! Why?
Singapore so small but got the highest paid ministers... but look at Japan and America's PM and President. -
read their initial news report.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:How is it cut their pay? They want pilots who fly the A380 to earn more money than their counterparts who fly the rest of the fleet. Flying an A380 is no different from flying an A340 which uses similar avionics.
There is no cut in pay. Rather they want to cap it.
According to them pilots flying 777 will take a pay cut, and they will move all of them into a more flexible pay structure (ie pay not based on aircraft model).
While I believe a flexible pay structure is useful (it lowers admin costs in handling such differences in pay, and allows greater flexibility for SIA to use their pilots), the argument on why those flying 777 to take a pay cut is crap (coz 777 was more manual, 380 is more automated)
yes 380 is more automated, but the pilot's responsibility increased (due to increased no. of passengers). Again, the pilots' counterargument (ie you should pay surgeons less since their operations also rely more now on technology) is valid.
So is my argument on why ministers' pay should be cut is valid (coz its easier for them to do their jobs now with IT) -
unfortunately, they can't give themselves a raise .... unlike ....................
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So is this an issue that needs to be addressed differently because "state" interests are compromised?Originally posted by soul_rage:SINGAPORE, April 25 (Reuters) - Singapore Airlines is underperforming its major rivals in terms of yields, margins and return on equity, a report in the Business Times said on Wednesday.
The paper quoted the airline's vice-president for industrial relations, Loh Oun Hean, who painted a bleak picture of the state-controlled airline's prospects at the Industrial Arbitration Court (IAC).
Funny how they strive to be equal when it comes to matters of such nature and not strive to claim to be the industry leader where they pride themselves on being amongst the world's finest - clearly, the world's finest doesn't extend to include 23 airlines - in every other aspect of quality associated with SIA...Originally posted by soul_rage:A survey of 29 airlines including Cathay Pacific , British Airways , Qantas , and others showed the pay of Singapore Air pilots equalled that of pilots at 23 of these airlines. -
Has anyone notice that in the first place, Alpha-S is just about the only union that can actually take the employer (SIA) to court?
Anyway, there seem to be some sort of flaw in the reasoning of the pilots. Firstly, there is no pay cut, right? It is just a matter of paying the same range of salary as the Boeing plane.
Next, although not quoted by TS or others, today's issue of Straits Times mentioned that pilots had argued along the lines of 'more lives = more money', which I find appalling. Does this mean that if I feel I don't earn enough money, I can just play with people's lives? It's like arguing that 'I am not responsible for these few hundred people coz I am not paid to be responsible for their lives'. Surely pilots cannot be thinking along that lines?
Also, benchmarking of pilots' pay in this case is more like pegging/moving it closer to the industry standard? Anyway, what's wrong with having a benchmark? It's just an indication of market prices...
Moreover, has anyone heard of cost-push inflation? Being the selfish consumer, I wouldn't want my ticket to increase in price as a result of an increased in pilots' salaries.
However, of course, we have to be balanced and impartial. So, now, I shall go on to the problems with SIA's arguments. The stupid argument and comparing pilots' pay and other officers' pay is really like comparing apples and oranges. It doesn't make any sense to compare this way, since the job scope is soo different.
Of course pilots are entitled to a pay rise. Any employee is entitled to one. It's just that they have to find more convincing points to persuade me, an outsider and a kay-poh, that they have valid reasons to ask for a pay rise. (Pls don't give anymore more lives means more money argument!)
To end it off, perhaps any comments on ministers' pay hike should be left out of this discussion? One shouldn't see the ministers' pay hike together with this issue, to prevent the problem of reacting to this issue emotionally. -
Firstly, does anyone feel that the pilots are overpaid?
Or isit just a case of a group of professionals ensuring that they get what they deserved and not be short changed by the company.
Anyway, pilots not the TOP 8 paying professions in s'pore. Not even near what we will have to finance come 01 Jul.
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That is where you are wrong.Originally posted by candydnac:Has anyone notice that in the first place, Alpha-S is just about the only union that can actually take the employer (SIA) to court?
Anyway, there seem to be some sort of flaw in the reasoning of the pilots. Firstly, there is no pay cut, right? It is just a matter of paying the same range of salary as the Boeing plane.
Next, although not quoted by TS or others, today's issue of Straits Times mentioned that pilots had argued along the lines of 'more lives = more money', which I find appalling. Does this mean that if I feel I don't earn enough money, I can just play with people's lives? It's like arguing that 'I am not responsible for these few hundred people coz I am not paid to be responsible for their lives'. Surely pilots cannot be thinking along that lines?
Also, benchmarking of pilots' pay in this case is more like pegging/moving it closer to the industry standard? Anyway, what's wrong with having a benchmark? It's just an indication of market prices...
Moreover, has anyone heard of cost-push inflation? Being the selfish consumer, I wouldn't want my ticket to increase in price as a result of an increased in pilots' salaries.
However, of course, we have to be balanced and impartial. So, now, I shall go on to the problems with SIA's arguments. The stupid argument and comparing pilots' pay and other officers' pay is really like comparing apples and oranges. It doesn't make any sense to compare this way, since the job scope is soo different.
Of course pilots are entitled to a pay rise. Any employee is entitled to one. It's just that they have to find more convincing points to persuade me, an outsider and a kay-poh, that they have valid reasons to ask for a pay rise. (Pls don't give anymore more lives means more money argument!)
To end it off, perhaps any comments on ministers' pay hike should be left out of this discussion? One shouldn't see the ministers' pay hike together with this issue, to prevent the problem of reacting to this issue emotionally.
(1) I stress again, there is a pay cut to the 777 pilots.
(2) What is wrong with the pilots reflecting on more pay coz of more lives in their hands? This is accountability. The moral burden is now heavier on them. If you have done a job where you are on 24 hours standby, you would understand the mental burden on them. Its like you having the burden in your head, though things may not happen, and you end up being really drained.
(3) This issue IS ABOUT the pay hike. After the entire fiasco that the govt went thru to insist on increasing their pay and ignoring the needs of the people, it would be interesting to see how theyhave the moral authority to tell the pilots to shut up.
Moreover, point (3) further strengthens point (2). since ministers say I must be paid more even though their position is to serve the people with their hearts (hence it means if you don't pay me well, I don't serve the people well even though its my responsibility), why can't the pilots say, pay me more since I am responsible for more lives?
(4) end of the day, which one would you prefer? Pay rise according to market conditions, and keep the good pilots. Or risk losing the pilots to other airlines, and hence increasing the risks of accidents due to having fewer experienced/good pilots and more new pilots being rushed to fill the gaps?
Notice that I am using the same argument as the govt. (Pay me more, or I will leave the public service, and you guys will get a dud minister that will bring the economy of Singapore down)
So at the end of the day, yes, these 2 issues are linked (thus this topic is in Politics forum) -
Ok. I shall just address one point here then, which is that of NOT linking the government pay hike issue to this issue. They are two separate issues. Unless people can see them as two different issues, they will continue to use their emotions (based on their unhappiness over the minister's pay hike) to state their support for the pilots.
FYI, I do support the pilots in asking for a pay hike. Anyone can ask for a pay hike. It's just that I do not like some of the arguments they are using as their justification for a pay hike.