Alpha-S also wants to benchmark pilot salaries like minister
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If play must also see got stake anot. If all the pilot bends together and quit together,WHo will fly the new A380? MM Lee himself? LOL...Originally posted by allentyb:wah lau
TS, never heard of the classic case
MM LEE VS THE PILOT UNION
GUESS WHAT HAPPEN TO THE RING LEADER
HIS PR STATUS GOT 'REVOKED'
as there is a singaporean saying - don't play play with the gahmen hor -
Why you think they are separate?Originally posted by candydnac:Ok. I shall just address one point here then, which is that of NOT linking the government pay hike issue to this issue. They are two separate issues. Unless people can see them as two different issues, they will continue to use their emotions (based on their unhappiness over the minister's pay hike) to state their support for the pilots.
FYI, I do support the pilots in asking for a pay hike. Anyone can ask for a pay hike. It's just that I do not like some of the arguments they are using as their justification for a pay hike.
It depends on which angle you are coming from. Basically, you can split up this thread into 2 issues
(1) Support or not support the pilot's pay hike request
(2) Watch how the govt performs on this 'crisis', after the big hoo-ha they have created
So you can discuss on (1), but I look at the thread at an angle of (1) and (2)
Sounds like the govt ('Do not link the poor and the pay hike together. They are 2 separate issues') -
not him. ANG MO will fly the A380 and SIA will have to pay them housing allowance, children education allowance. And the local boys lose out. LPPL.Originally posted by zenden9:If play must also see got stake anot. If all the pilot bends together and quit together,WHo will fly the new A380? MM Lee himself? LOL...
SIA rather pay more to others than the locals. -
It's not an issue of emotional reaction. Rather, that issue indirectly forms the basis of their argument - regardless of its merits, that forms the basis, doesn't it? So how do you suggest seperating that issue?Originally posted by candydnac:To end it off, perhaps any comments on ministers' pay hike should be left out of this discussion? One shouldn't see the ministers' pay hike together with this issue, to prevent the problem of reacting to this issue emotionally.
Just like precedences are an essential process in any court of law in conducting trials and judicial proceedings, you need a basis for anything you want to make a case of. At the end of the day, Alpha-S' line of reasoning isn't far off from what some self-assuming criminals would use to justify their payrise - the only difference is Alpha-S, unlike organised crime backed by the constitution, does not have the authority to review their wages and increase them on their own accord, which explains the need for them to take their case to the IAC. -
just for clarification, the pilots are not asking for a pay hike. the more we use that term, the more it portrays an unbalanced image of the dispute between the pilots and the company.
what the pilots are asking for is a pay comparable to flying the 747s. the 777s pilots were asked to take a reduced pay as compared to 747s due 'operational differences' (where as they put it currently, there is none) and also as a measure of cost cutting.
what they're trying to fight for now, is simply a reinstatement what should have been. they're not asking for more than what was originally placed on the bargaining table.
the statistics provided by the coy are biased. not inaccurate, mind u, but biased. and as with our local controlled media, ONLY their version of the statistics will ever be published on the papers or broadcasted on the news. (just as an example, the middle range salary was used as a comparison to the vps, and yet they chose to highlight 935 just captains, without mentioning that a majority of them do NOT draw that pay, and in fact much less. it is sensationalizing and misleading)
sq has always been touted as one of the top airlines in the world. and yet, there is this shortage of pilots due to the constant departure to other airlines. this is simply due to the other top airlines providing a more attractive renumeration package. do a quick comparison of how much each of the world's top airline pays, and u'll know how far behind sq is.
aviation has always been a global industry, and as such, should be viewed as one, with comparisons to the rest of the world. our local obsession with cost cutting and trimming every possible corner (streamlining, they so nicely put it) has not only marred sq's image as a world class company for employees, but also slowly defacing the way singapore operates as an entire economy in terms of being employers (which is the trend, if u look at other GLCs)
the pilots union is the only union that is not funded by the government. and as yet, they are the only entity that has been really fighting for their people's rights. unions being funded by the government is unheard of in other countries due to a conflict of interest. previous examples of how someone can be sent packing, literally, just because he dares to and has the ability to speak, has been seen. a victory for THIS union, is in effect, a victory for the people. a victory for the common man who is unable to stand up on his own to the blanketing rule. common folk like u and me. -
You are right... I agree with you, we should not call it a pay hike, but a pay that was previously theirs and is only fair they retain their pay.Originally posted by meqwerty:just for clarification, the pilots are not asking for a pay hike. the more we use that term, the more it portrays an unbalanced image of the dispute between the pilots and the company.
what the pilots are asking for is a pay comparable to flying the 747s. the 777s pilots were asked to take a reduced pay as compared to 747s due 'operational differences' (where as they put it currently, there is none) and also as a measure of cost cutting.
what they're trying to fight for now, is simply a reinstatement what should have been. they're not asking for more than what was originally placed on the bargaining table.
the statistics provided by the coy are biased. not inaccurate, mind u, but biased. and as with our local controlled media, ONLY their version of the statistics will ever be published on the papers or broadcasted on the news. (just as an example, the middle range salary was used as a comparison to the vps, and yet they chose to highlight 935 just captains, without mentioning that a majority of them do NOT draw that pay, and in fact much less. it is sensationalizing and misleading)
sq has always been touted as one of the top airlines in the world. and yet, there is this shortage of pilots due to the constant departure to other airlines. this is simply due to the other top airlines providing a more attractive renumeration package. do a quick comparison of how much each of the world's top airline pays, and u'll know how far behind sq is.
aviation has always been a global industry, and as such, should be viewed as one, with comparisons to the rest of the world. our local obsession with cost cutting and trimming every possible corner (streamlining, they so nicely put it) has not only marred sq's image as a world class company for employees, but also slowly defacing the way singapore operates as an entire economy in terms of being employers (which is the trend, if u look at other GLCs)
the pilots union is the only union that is not funded by the government. and as yet, they are the only entity that has been really fighting for their people's rights. unions being funded by the government is unheard of in other countries due to a conflict of interest. previous examples of how someone can be sent packing, literally, just because he dares to and has the ability to speak, has been seen. a victory for THIS union, is in effect, a victory for the people. a victory for the common man who is unable to stand up on his own to the blanketing rule. common folk like u and me.
And I also agree with you, that in the fight for talent, singapore companies, ESPECIALLY government-linked companies, usually lose. This is coz our GLCs are stuck with the govt's mentality of 'CHEAP AND GOOD', which often results in them losing out to many other companies from other countries. Yet they continue to behave as if losing talent is a normal thing, and usually replace the positions with new people whom are cheaper.
The reason why we cannot compete with others, as in the case of SIA, may be that we may be focusing too much on cutting costs, and not on how to expand and reach out to a larger market.
Just look at what happened to our local companies, HDB and the govt authority LTA. When a project is up for tender, the 1st and foremost thing they consider is costs. The company that tenders the lowest project cost wins. And then what happens next are the following:
1) Delay in schedule due to limited manpower (low project cost), resulting in additional costs
2) Bankruptcy of contractors, coz they tender too low, and go out of business, resulting in delay of projects. Just look at some of the upgrade flat projects
3) Accidents happen, people die, just look at the Circle Line case
4) Higher maintenance costs. Things break easily coz the initial low project costs results in the contractor usually cutting corners, and getting inferior stuff to use in the project.
While the initial project cost looks good coz they squeezed it low, the long term implications are for all to see. That's why I think we CANNOT compete on the international arena, if we continue to remain myopic and focus only on 'CHEAP and GOOD' (In that order, and usually you can't get GOOD)
Just ask me, I just left a local MNC, and I am really peeved with the way they treat people. To them, no one is indispensable, and they lead you to believe that your low pay is already a good pay, coz no one will pay high pay to Singaporeans. That is untrue, coz I moved to a foreign MNC and they value me substantially higher than what the local MNC valued me. -
Make that employers and companies in sg in general. rather pay more to foreigners than to our own pple. s*it logic.Originally posted by Applecombi:
not him. ANG MO will fly the A380 and SIA will have to pay them housing allowance, children education allowance. And the local boys lose out. LPPL.SIA rather pay more to others than the locals. -
The fact of the matter is, you can never conjure up a system that recognises everyone's input adequately. For the record, the average CEO's pay in the US is 827:1 of that of an average minimum wage worker's.Originally posted by Atobe:Is it not typical to pay the top the highest possible obscene pay, so that he can think of ways to cut all possible costs of all stratas below his level so as to make it profitable ?
What is the cost of the top level management as a percentage to the total wage bill, and comparing it to the man hours of productive activity that will generate profit measurable in units of currency ?
It will be obvious that those at the bottom levels put together will produce a higher productive output that generate most of the profit in the organisation compared to any that can be measured from those at the top levels.
Sadly, management always justify their high wages and will always attempt to cut the costs of those at the bottom, whose combined total will weigh heavier.
Unfortunately, short sighted management will fail to recognise that it is the combined effort of those at the bottom that generate the profit output from the total economic enterprise.
While such issues invariably spark debates of social justice and responsibility, I suppose, while recognising it being virtually impossible to reduce the rich-poor divide by directly adjusting the income of people on either end of the spectrum, it at least makes things more palatable if the income of the respective groups are pegged to some tangible factors.
It's one thing using market rate as an argument to justify a payrise, but a completely different kettle of fish if you were to use some nonsensical reasons to justify a paycheck that's many-fold that of other top players playing the same role in the same industry.
In this instance, it clearly is no exagerration that ALPHA-S has a very strong case simply because the pilots whose interests they represent are not even drawing renumerations on par with its competitors whose employers enjoy a similar standing to that of SIA's. -
you know ... I was supporting the management's side all the way till they started announcing million dollar salaries for SIA's ultimate overlords and posting huge profits ......... -
i wonder why they go to court this time, when lau lee `chu ma' will settle everything, short, sharp & precise. why waste all the tax payers money man....?
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He got the cheek to ask other not to get what deserve since himself already get a huge pay increase? If he come out and do it.Originally posted by weiqimun:i wonder why they go to court this time, when lau lee `chu ma' will settle everything, short, sharp & precise. why waste all the tax payers money man....?
He will really be BU ZI LIAN CHI
Btw,what the pilot ask I think is justify. Get pay for bigger pay for heavier workload..
The person who really waste tax payer money is the Old man himself.... -
I agreed with the fellow forumers on the point about the local company that treat sg employees like crap and try to cheat us with lousy pay package and ridiculous increment.
The sad things is that the poodle are in cahoots with these poodle-owned company in swindling cheap labour of the true talented sg people.
That is why we never get any where to international level by cutting cost here and there, not building on experience and not focusing on proper training and improvement.
The saddest thing is that we can still deceive the world that we are world class by being cheapstake.
The truth will be start to crack open soon with the failures coming in. -
The only talent they have is to tax and recover all possible costs. As for R&D and practical knowledge application, there is still no major breakthrough despite all the boasts about biomedical researches being done by some A* agencies.Originally posted by Medicated Oil:I agreed with the fellow forumers on the point about the local company that treat sg employees like crap and try to cheat us with lousy pay package and ridiculous increment.
The sad things is that the poodle are in cahoots with these poodle-owned company in swindling cheap labour of the true talented sg people.
That is why we never get any where to international level by cutting cost here and there, not building on experience and not focusing on proper training and improvement.
The saddest thing is that we can still deceive the world that we are world class by being cheapstake.
The truth will be start to crack open soon with the failures coming in.
The moment world economy slides back from the China-India factors, we will see against deepest recessions from which we will be the last again to recover because of our fundamental lack of originality in restructuring the economy or motivating people in practical broad-based knowledge application as Samsung or Toyota have done.
Where are our talented leaders. They will tell citizens that due to globalization nothing can be done about restructuring the economy. -
The difference is particularly prevalent and well-accentuated in the drugs/biomedical science sector. There's just no way to manage such industries effectively if you invest with monetary incentive being the primary motivation and having unrealistic projected returns in mind. It's absolutely incredulous to think it feasible to yield returns higher than that of Pfizer or Johnson & Johnson with investments on R&D a fraction of theirs.Originally posted by robertteh:The only talent they have is to tax and recover all possible costs. As for R&D and practical knowledge application, there is still no major breakthrough despite all the boasts about biomedical researches being done by some A* agencies.
The moment world economy slides back from the China-India factors, we will see against deepest recessions from which we will be the last again to recover because of our fundamental lack of originality in restructuring the economy or motivating people in practical broad-based knowledge application as Samsung or Toyota have done.
Where are our talented leaders. They will tell citizens that due to globalization nothing can be done about restructuring the economy.
If this regime could restructure the economy the way Toyota restructured their company, you'd be enjoying the much-touted Swiss standard of living... -
Talented leaders = 1 (If you count the old man, he is a talent at blackmailing and winning law suit)
Since when did we see any poodles make any real contributions to the tax payer or the country for the last eight years, the house is full of yes-man and yes-woman, lots of sleepers and lackeys.(No one dare to speak the truth, choose to deceive themselves and their boss cos their boss also the same type of character)
The only policy they made is towards fattening the bonus of their bosses empire.
Just look at the recent release of the shameless profit made by the rail, have the service improved or the waiting times reduced ? Have any one checked whether the promise made are performed ?
Or by just taking a sample size of 1000 people that dun use the public transport to comment on the improvement ? (The female boss included, I think she just reading the reports instead of walking the ground, only time that she is near any public transport is during the photo shoot for the PROFIT REPORT)
It is all just a good WAYANG.
Just like as the durian foundation. See when the dust under the carpet is going to explode. -
I suppose its normal behavior for a parliament filled with people whom are there not for the people, but for the money. This is what PAP has signalled out to the masses from their pay hike issue - That it is all about money.Originally posted by Medicated Oil:Talented leaders = 1 (If you count the old man, he is a talent at blackmailing and winning law suit)
Since when did we see any poodles make any real contributions to the tax payer or the country for the last eight years, the house is full of yes-man and yes-woman, lots of sleepers and lackeys.(No one dare to speak the truth, choose to deceive themselves and their boss cos their boss also the same type of character)
The only policy they made is towards fattening the bonus of their bosses empire.
Just look at the recent release of the shameless profit made by the rail, have the service improved or the waiting times reduced ? Have any one checked whether the promise made are performed ?
So its normal for them to agree with the boss, and get a fatter pay and more bonus. Why make life difficult for yourself if you fight for the people, and end up losing your MP/minister post, and all the pension that comes with it. (Hey, MP is the most well-paid PART-TIME job in the world!)
Did you read somewhere that the transport operators had applied again to raise transport costs? To me, its an absolute fiasco that the transport operators are private companies, coz clearly all they care about are profits, and the only place they can increase their profits, is to increase prices. Cost-restructuring can only do so much. -
The govt and the GLCs, to date, are still the biggest hirers of workers. Thus far, most of us, whom have not worked in foreign companies, are lured into a false sense of thinking that we are lowly valued, and thus we should put up with the endless OTs, working on weekends, no gratitude from the bosses for good work done, etc.Originally posted by Medicated Oil:I agreed with the fellow forumers on the point about the local company that treat sg employees like crap and try to cheat us with lousy pay package and ridiculous increment.
The sad things is that the poodle are in cahoots with these poodle-owned company in swindling cheap labour of the true talented sg people.
That is why we never get any where to international level by cutting cost here and there, not building on experience and not focusing on proper training and improvement.
The saddest thing is that we can still deceive the world that we are world class by being cheapstake.
The truth will be start to crack open soon with the failures coming in.
Sadly it lowers our self-esteem, and when we attempt to compete with others, we lose. Just listen to the Indians from India, whom can say "Yes" to interview questions even when they don't know, and smoke their way thru, when we are stupidly honest and say "We don't know", thus killing ourselves in the process.
As I mentioned before, low self-esteem Singaporeans work to the favor of the govt, coz with lower pay, more foreign investments will come here, since we are perceived to be cheaper, and then the govt hits you with a "Look, our economy expanded by x%, so we should get a bonus for a job well done".
In local MNCs, I can tell you that the labour turnover is very high, so you can see the loss of talent continuously. But the higher-ups do not care, all they care about is costs. 'Oh this guy with several years experience, and always perform well is leaving, but we can get a cheaper fresh grad probably half his price. Ok let him leave' -
I would like to bring another point to everyone here on the retail market in Singapore.
Do you guys know that many branded companies view Singapore market as behind Hong Kong, Japan, Korea, and sometimes even Thailand? Most of the best products are pushed out to those markets, before they even consider Singapore.
And do you guys know why?
Its coz us Singaporeans in general, have also been tainted by the govt's 'CHEAP and GOOD' policy. We also like to look for cheap deals, and cheap bargains, and overlook quality.
My wife is in the marketing segment of a retail firm, and what is generally said of Singapore, is that it is a very tough market, where branding isn't what matters, nor is the quality, but COST.
COST, COST, COST. That's what we care about. I think we have more sales than most other countries. Its sale sale sale all year round.
That's why the retail is still in the slumps, coz our market is a CHEAPO market.
Note I am not blaming Singaporeans, I am just presenting this info to you guys on how we are corrupted as well. -
People have already pointed out that salary is only one of the many factors determining whether talents will stay in an enterprise.Originally posted by soul_rage:I suppose its normal behavior for a parliament filled with people whom are there not for the people, but for the money. This is what PAP has signalled out to the masses from their pay hike issue - That it is all about money.
So its normal for them to agree with the boss, and get a fatter pay and more bonus. Why make life difficult for yourself if you fight for the people, and end up losing your MP/minister post, and all the pension that comes with it. (Hey, MP is the most well-paid PART-TIME job in the world!)
Did you read somewhere that the transport operators had applied again to raise transport costs? To me, its an absolute fiasco that the transport operators are private companies, coz clearly all they care about are profits, and the only place they can increase their profits, is to increase prices. Cost-restructuring can only do so much.
If a boss is a very self-centred person who wants to set up all the policies and control people without letting them use their initiatives and creativity to manage tasks to arrive at goals and results in their own ways as teachers and principals in schools will tell you there will be only carrying out of policies and pushing away of problems creating a lot of stress and office conflicts among staff.
In such an environment, even if we offer ministers and top civil servants 3 times more salaries such a boss may not be able to retain true talents who have something to contribute or they may not join service.
Is our autocratic system of government now falling into such a situation where many talented people are not willing to join the government and if so all these talks about the need to pay ministers more salaries to attract them or retain them are pure conjectures. -
pay rise for the ground crew then.
unless pilots can go change their own flat tyre. -
No it's more like Singaporeans who are capable are mainly not interested in running the government citing this and that as excuses.Originally posted by robertteh:People have already pointed out that salary is only one of the many factors determining whether talents will stay in an enterprise.
If a boss is a very self-centred person who wants to set up all the policies and control people without letting them use their initiatives and creativity to manage tasks to arrive at goals and results in their own ways as teachers and principals in schools will tell you there will be only carrying out of policies and pushing away of problems creating a lot of stress and office conflicts among staff.
In such an environment, even if we offer ministers and top civil servants 3 times more salaries such a boss may not be able to retain true talents who have something to contribute or they may not join service.
Is our autocratic system of government now falling into such a situation where many talented people are not willing to join the government and if so all these talks about the need to pay ministers more salaries to attract them or retain them are pure conjectures.
They have no interest when they have the freedom of mobility in the corporate world, the freedom of choice in the free market.
Why would they bottle themselves up running a government for people who arent part of his/her own life? -
ground crew under NTUC..... so can pay rise meh???? No paycut very happy oreadi!!Originally posted by kopiosatu:pay rise for the ground crew then.
unless pilots can go change their own flat tyre. 
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Given the current perception, that the govt serves the people only because of money, even those who are capable, and willing to serve, will dis-associate themselves from the possibility, becoz they don't have to be labelled as money-grabbers.Originally posted by CM06:No it's more like Singaporeans who are capable are mainly not interested in running the government citing this and that as excuses.
They have no interest when they have the freedom of mobility in the corporate world, the freedom of choice in the free market.
Why would they bottle themselves up running a government for people who arent part of his/her own life?
And your comments comes from "self". People who think like you, 'Why should they bottle themselves up running a govt for people whom aren't part of his/her life", is an individualistic view (its not wrong), and should not be involved in serving the people.
Regardless what LKY says, the ideals of serving the people still stand (Serve with passion and heart). If he replaces that with pragmatism, Singapore will soon lose its identity and its people. -
Market forces will decide. There are plenty of airlines around...market forces and competition will determine the most equitable salary package. If the pilots think they can get a better pay elsewhere, go!Originally posted by robertteh:If Alpha-S cannot succeed in benchmarking their pilot salaries it will be either because they do not have the talents or the ministers' benchmarking of their salaries to better-paying private sector is just an illusion or deception. -
Leaders must have moral and legal authority in running the country. In their recent self-reocmmednations to parliament and people to give their own ministers yet further lottery style million-dollar increments, the basis was clearly not market forces. The particular benchmarking used to give their own ministers the lottery winning was not even based on apple-to-apple or industry-to-industry comparisons. So why expect Alpha-S pilots to accept such a basis.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Market forces will decide. There are plenty of airlines around...market forces and competition will determine the most equitable salary package. If the pilots think they can get a better pay elsewhere, go!