Income distribution?
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This is probably one of the most sensitive data statistics (and politically explosive) the Govt possibly has, but where does one find them? Quick searches yield very little, but people are obviously getting restless.
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Well, all I can say is that despite all the "brilliant" policies put up by the people at the top every year to narrow the income gap, the gap gets wider and wider.
And you can get an incredulous pay increment even though these problems become more and more blantant in the country.
Go figure.
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If you are not living in this country or a potential quitter, what is the point of asking. Are you trying to rub salt to the wound of the people living in this country? Or are you not sure about weather you have made the right decision to leave this country?Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:This is probably one of the most sensitive data statistics (and politically explosive) the Govt possibly has, but where does one find them? Quick searches yield very little, but people are obviously getting restless.
beside that, I thought someone has already highlighted in another thread that the top 10% wage earner is about S$7000 per month.
if you want all these information, it is not hard to find, you just need to take some time to search the internet and visit some of the government website, such as ministry of manpower. www.mom.gov.sg
i think you need to be smarter than that to be a quitter in order to survive.
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/papers/seminar/income2000.pdf -
The figure of top 10% is > $7,000.00 came out somewhere in the papers nearing towards the pay hike decision, and the GST increase. Like what Gazelle mentioned, I am unsure if it includes everyone working in Singapore, or just the Singaporeans.Originally posted by Gazelle:If you are not living in this country or a potential quitter, what is the point of asking. Are you trying to rub salt to the wound of the people living in this country? Or are you not sure about weather you have made the right decision to leave this country?
beside that, I thought someone has already highlighted in another thread that the top 10% wage earner is about S$7000 per month.
if you want all these information, it is not hard to find, you just need to take some time to search the internet and visit some of the government website, such as ministry of manpower. www.mom.gov.sg
i think you need to be smarter than that to be a quitter in order to survive.
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/papers/seminar/income2000.pdf
The figure of avg middle income was about $1,500.00 to $4,000.00.
though I saw these figures, no statistics were put up to back them up. -
Anyone think that they can get some information from WP Sylvia Lim's NMP speech in Parliament about Ministers Pay Increase ?
Extract from Sylvia Lim's Speech:
Ministers are currently drawing $1.2m a year which divided by 12 is about $100,000 per month. How does it compare with the average person?
According to the Report on the Labour Force in Singapore 2006, the median gross monthly income of workers in full-time employment is $2,170. In other words, a worker takes a month to earn what a Minister earns in half a day! For university graduates, the median gross monthly income is $4,450. This would take the Minister one day to earn.
As you move the salaries up to 88% of the benchmark, we will find that the average worker's monthly pay will be earned by a Minister in 2-3 hours. Does the Cabinet not feel a tinge of discomfort drawing taxpayers' money at such rate? At such rates, can Ministers and Singaporeans share the same dreams?
Another reality is that our leaders may face problems in marshalling the people to make sacrifices for the country. -
Try this. It gives the statistics for the average monthly household income by household income group. According to the report, the monthly average income is $4,867 in 2003.
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/keystats/surveys/hes.pdf -
but we know that we have ministers benchmarked at much higher pays with the public secter. this tells us that maybe if we did a top 5%, the figure might be 20kOriginally posted by soul_rage:The figure of top 10% is > $7,000.00 came out somewhere in the papers nearing towards the pay hike decision, and the GST increase. Like what Gazelle mentioned, I am unsure if it includes everyone working in Singapore, or just the Singaporeans.
The figure of avg middle income was about $1,500.00 to $4,000.00.
though I saw these figures, no statistics were put up to back them up.
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Note the difference btw individual salary income range, and household income range. If household, it is factoring multiple individuals in the same household.Originally posted by hisoka:but we know that we have ministers benchmarked at much higher pays with the public secter. this tells us that maybe if we did a top 5%, the figure might be 20k
anyway, the top people, according to a report yesterday, (CFO, Head HR, Head Marketing), earns about $200+k per year, so yes you are right, as you go further up, the pay difference is moving towards something like exponential. -
yeah i was going to point out the household thing. i've always had a thing against compiling on a household basiss but i guess it makes them look betterOriginally posted by soul_rage:Note the difference btw individual salary income range, and household income range. If household, it is factoring multiple individuals in the same household.
anyway, the top people, according to a report yesterday, (CFO, Head HR, Head Marketing), earns about $200+k per year, so yes you are right, as you go further up, the pay difference is moving towards something like exponential. -
Well, it sure is difficult to find much information on the income distribution of Singapore! I have some stats on income inequality, but they are outdated.
According to the Human Development Report 2006, based on 1998 stats (why do they not have updated stats??), Singapore's Gini coefficient is 42.5, where 0 rep zero inequality (ie everyone's income is equal) and 100 rep full inequality (richest owns all). This is much higher than the other countries listed above Singapore in the HDI with the sole exception of HongKong, although I admit this figure is prob no longer accurate since the stats almost 10 years ago.
Nevertheless, they do give a clear indication that Singapore IS heading towards an unhealthy distribution of income. Perhaps policies implemented should focus on distributing more income, without going to the extent of affecting econ growth (coz if economy isn't growing, there isn't any point in discussing income equality in the first place), and without leaning towards the view that perfect equality is good (and feasible).
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i think therein, you find why it was so difficult to get the statistics..
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as mentioned, I saw these numbers in certain reports from Today either for the pay hike justification, or the GST increase and the amount they are giving us to offset the GST increase. But there is no known statistics coz they never published it.
Anyway, Gazelle, I believe it makes sense that the top 10% includes everyone in Singapore (all working people). Coz like what I believe, as you go up the income group, top 9% may be a multiplication factor of the 9-10% group and the top 8% may be a multiplication factor again of the 8-9% group.
So that brings our ministers to the 100+k astronomical salary they have per month -
When a country's reserves and budget surpluses/deficits are as mysterious as life in North Korea, where do you seriously expect to go to obtain any statistics than paints the genuine picture of reality?
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What I can see is opportunities and opportunities to make big bucks in Singapore and not threat.Originally posted by soul_rage:as mentioned, I saw these numbers in certain reports from Today either for the pay hike justification, or the GST increase and the amount they are giving us to offset the GST increase. But there is no known statistics coz they never published it.
Anyway, Gazelle, I believe it makes sense that the top 10% includes everyone in Singapore (all working people). Coz like what I believe, as you go up the income group, top 9% may be a multiplication factor of the 9-10% group and the top 8% may be a multiplication factor again of the 8-9% group.
So that brings our ministers to the 100+k astronomical salary they have per month -
I understand what you mean, but you are coming from a 'self' point of view. Its ok to have super-rich people, however, the standard and cost of living of Singapore should be at a level where the average guy also lives a life of satisfaction here.Originally posted by Gazelle:What I can see is opportunities and opportunities to make big bucks in Singapore and not threat.
A bigger stretch in income gap btw the poor and the rich will only stir up more discontent, and if there ever comes a time when the poor revolts (This is possible, even though right now, the govt controls things in a very strict manner), how many dollars you have are all useless, coz the economy collapses, the richer people get hanged, and whatever big bucks you earn goes up in smoke.
That is why the govt must never ever just side with the rich, coz its in their interests to ensure that everyone lives a good life in Singapore, thereby ensuring the stability and the economy of this nation.
That's why I believe the reason why many truly rich guys do a lot of work to try to bridge the gap for the poor, is not because they want to (though yes some of them are sincere in helping), but because they know it is necessary.
At the end of the day I believe the 80/20 rule applies (or even 95/5 in Singapore's case), where 80-95% are the poor and the truly rich is a mere 5-20%. En-masse if the poor are discontented, the rich suffers as well. Therefore, both are interdependent. -
Andrew PK Yap wrote:
You prefer the words “200-300 times the income of most Singaporeans” or “200-300 times the income of more than half of Singaporeans”?
Quote:
“More striking, perhaps, the 11 to 20 percentile group saw their household incomes fall a whopping 19.7% over the same five year period. On average, these households had S$1,180 (US$744) monthly incomes last year, compared to S$1,470 (US$927) five years previously. On an annualized basis, their average household income fell 4.3% each year. A smaller income fall was recorded for the next up percentile group.”
taken from here:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/HG08Ae01.html
Note that S$1,180 (US$744) monthly incomes is referring to “HOUSEHOLD INCOMES”
If you take the “HOUSEHOLD INCOME” of LHL (salaries from Temasek and Singapore Government both public institutions) you are looking at more than 300 times! Posted on 04/25/07 at 15:45:14,
http://www.newsintercom.org/index.php?itemid=527 -
The statistic was talking about household income during the period of 2000 to 2005 when we had SARS, recession, 9/11, falling property prices, bull stock market and the hollowing out of manufacturing industry to china.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Andrew PK Yap wrote:
You prefer the words “200-300 times the income of most Singaporeans” or “200-300 times the income of more than half of Singaporeans”?
Quote:
“More striking, perhaps, the 11 to 20 percentile group saw their household incomes fall a whopping 19.7% over the same five year period. On average, these households had S$1,180 (US$744) monthly incomes last year, compared to S$1,470 (US$927) five years previously. On an annualized basis, their average household income fell 4.3% each year. A smaller income fall was recorded for the next up percentile group.”
taken from here:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/HG08Ae01.html
Note that S$1,180 (US$744) monthly incomes is referring to “HOUSEHOLD INCOMES”
If you take the “HOUSEHOLD INCOME” of LHL (salaries from Temasek and Singapore Government both public institutions) you are looking at more than 300 times! Posted on 04/25/07 at 15:45:14,
http://www.newsintercom.org/index.php?itemid=527
Yeah, like i said before, Lee Raymond of Exxonmobil retirement package is a whopping $400 million, and USA has the most number of billionaire and world richest man. How many time is that compared to the average american living in down south new orleans? 1 million times? -
How much money did TT Durai take compared to the ministers? Take money from charities is different as take money from Singapore coffers for a life of luxuries? Take money from Singapore coffers at the expense of Singaporeans is different from TT Durai taking money from NKF meant for Kidney patients?
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I think the discussion of minister pay and TT durai has been done too many times over in other threads and I see no to point in bring this up again. For sure ministers pay are high. but they are still not in the catogory of super rich people. If we want to talk about income gap, we might as well talk about the top end of the spectrum, such as those super rich living in Nassim and Tanglin.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:How much money did TT Durai take compared to the ministers? Take money from charities is different as take money from Singapore coffers for a life of luxuries? Take money from Singapore coffers at the expense of Singaporeans is different from TT Durai taking money from NKF meant for Kidney patients? -
Discontentment will always exist regardless of how wide or narrow is the income gap. Singaporeans are well known for their kiasu attitute hence I am not surprise that they will be unhappy to see rich people snapping up million dollar apartments like buying grocery in supermarket.Originally posted by soul_rage:I understand what you mean, but you are coming from a 'self' point of view. Its ok to have super-rich people, however, the standard and cost of living of Singapore should be at a level where the average guy also lives a life of satisfaction here.
A bigger stretch in income gap btw the poor and the rich will only stir up more discontent, and if there ever comes a time when the poor revolts (This is possible, even though right now, the govt controls things in a very strict manner), how many dollars you have are all useless, coz the economy collapses, the richer people get hanged, and whatever big bucks you earn goes up in smoke.
That is why the govt must never ever just side with the rich, coz its in their interests to ensure that everyone lives a good life in Singapore, thereby ensuring the stability and the economy of this nation.
That's why I believe the reason why many truly rich guys do a lot of work to try to bridge the gap for the poor, is not because they want to (though yes some of them are sincere in helping), but because they know it is necessary.
At the end of the day I believe the 80/20 rule applies (or even 95/5 in Singapore's case), where 80-95% are the poor and the truly rich is a mere 5-20%. En-masse if the poor are discontented, the rich suffers as well. Therefore, both are interdependent.
I dont think the government is pro rich, they are just pro business and that is something they will continue to do because of the survival of Singapore for future generation.
If we were to compare the cost of living in Singapore, it will be better to compare it with cities such as Seoul, Toyko, HK, Dubai, Mumbai etc. In singapore, you still can have a bowl of fishball nooble in the city that cost only S$2.00. Can you find that in other big cities? -
deleted. Not good enough to say anything.
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I met so many Singaporean businessmen overseas and they all tell me:Originally posted by Gazelle:I dont think the government is pro rich, they are just pro business and that is something they will continue to do because of the survival of Singapore for future generation.
"The minute I make enough money, I am out of Singapore because the government is pro-big business and it seems *out to kill us small businesses* with *the high costs of doing business* and letting the *GLC using public money* to compete with us." -
That is a very old thinking of the 90s when big conglomerate and GLCs were getting involved in alot of non-core businesses.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:I met so many Singaporean businessmen overseas and they all tell me:
"The minute I make enough money, I am out of Singapore because the government is pro-big business and it seems *out to kill us small businesses* with *the high costs of doing business* and letting the *GLC using public money* to compete with us."
But today competitive world, most these big companies are actually divesting their non core business and assets.
Contrary to what you are saying, the Singapore government has initiated alot of program through Spring and IE Singapore to bring SME global. I have personally deal with the IE Singapore about overseas venture, and they have a program to subsidize the start-up cost such as overseas sales office the first year, which can cost to a few hundred thousands.
I think the businessmen you met have to be more proactive and resourceful in seeking help from the government instead wait for help to come to them. -
You know what wayang wayang is? As long as you do not want to solve the high costs of doing business because of sheer greed see:Originally posted by Gazelle:That is a very old thinking of the 90s when big conglomerate and GLCs were getting involved in alot of non-core businesses.
But today competitive world, most these big companies are actually divesting their non core business and assets.
Contrary to what you are saying, the Singapore government has initiated alot of program through Spring and IE Singapore to bring SME global. I have personally deal with the IE Singapore about overseas venture, and they have a program to subsidize the start-up cost such as overseas sales office the first year, which can cost to a few hundred thousands.
I think the businessmen you met have to be more proactive and resourceful in seeking help from the government instead wait for help to come to them.
Property Prices Rise at our expense
it is all simply wayang wayang... -
a) Property speculation only started last year and it is concentrated in prime and downdown area close to the IR, not island wide.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:You know what wayang wayang is? As long as you do not want to solve the high costs of doing business because of sheer greed see:
Property Prices Rise at our expense
it is all simply wayang wayang...
b) There are many Singaporeans who have made huge "paper" losses in their property since the crash in that late 90s and early 2000. As such dont you think that a boom is property prices will give these people a life line?
c) The construction industry has been experience nagative growth for so many years, even when the economy is recovering. Hence dont you think that the boom in property market today will give a life line to fellow singaporeans working in the construction industry?
d) Inflation will exisit regardless if the property market in singapore is booming or not. Unless you are going to get yourself involve in buying prime property market or renting private apartments, if not I dont think this is going create addition cost burden to Singaporeans already living in HDB flat
e) Property price increase will benefit all existing home owners because they will have positive asset instead of negative ones. If they need the cash ugently, they can always cash in on their existing home by downgrading to smaller units.
f) The reason for the property boom is because Singapore property market has been lagging behind other major cities such as HK, Sydney London, and with Singapore IR, there willl be a surge in demand for properties. The effort by the government to turn singapore into a more vibrant city and the new income tax law have also attracted many foreigners to this country.
Is this bad news for Singapore? I dont think so.
g) A sudden crash is unlikely to hit singapore property market because majority of the buyers are people with high net worth and the boom is concentrated in the prime district or areas close to the IR, not island wide. If you are not in the market speculating, why should you worry about it. Furthermore recession is a cycle, no country in this world will be able to avoid it, you just have to be prepared and face it like a man.