USA has Martin Luther King, S. Africa has Mandela.......

• Rock^Star

  4 May 07, 12:34

  Originally posted by walesa:

  That, in truth, is a problem with this society indeed. For all the first-worldness about this place, you'd be appalled to learn how some folks actually believe everything this regime's mouthpieces churn out...

  Sad but true........
• LazerLordz

  4 May 07, 12:39

  I'm proud to have CSJ as a Singaporean, as an activist. But I wouldn't want him to be an MP.
  
  
• Rock^Star

  4 May 07, 12:43

  Originally posted by LazerLordz:

  I'm proud to have CSJ as a Singaporean, as an activist. But I wouldn't want him to be an MP.
  
  

  Why not?
• Atobe

  4 May 07, 12:47

  Originally posted by Rock^Star:

  Dear Atobe,
  
  good historical summaries you have there. Unfortunately, the purpose of my thread is to see "which country is proud enough to claim that they have which activist".
  
  I'm not even measuring the success of those individuals here. Thus, to insist that comparing Aung San Suu Kyi with Mandela and King is a mistake, is unnecessary.
  
  The Burmese have a repressive regime and they support Aung for her efforts. They are proud to have her as their voice. People (or races) in the various countries that I have mentioned are proud to claim that they have these activists. So here's the key: Are Singaporeans proud to claim they have CSJ? (Read my first post "Can S'porean's proclaim to have CSJ?")
  
  Aung had intervention from the US govt, what about Chee? He does not have strong international recognition overseas, much less at home.
  
  Yes, this thread was inspired by thoughts from the other but I just want to do a ground survey. It has nothing to do with mocking you. I suggest you stop taking my views so personally.

  Are you being objective here, considering that the Myanmar Government - or even that of the South African Apartheir Government - were considered reprehensive by most standards of decency ?
  
  Were the political or social activists against the autocratic and monopolistic rule of China's Communist Party supported by the majority of China's population ?
  
  Yet despite the tacit objections voiced by various US Administration to the manner in which the Chinese Government cracked down on its Citizens, the US Government continue to do business with it.
  
  Is the Singapore Government on par with the Myanmar Government with its International Standing ?
  
  As much as the various countries in ASEAN, in East Asia, and West Asia - or even further away in Europe, UK, USA or Australia and NZ - find LKY and his Government methods contrary to their own social and political standards, they will continue to engage this Government, in the same manner that Singapore is advocating engagement with the Myanmar Government in order to influence change.
  
  Unfortunately, Myanmar has nothing to offfer the Governments of all these other countries mentioned, not in the same strategic way that Singapore has but which is not indispensable.
  
  What can this twisted survey conclude when the majority of the silent supporter of SDP, SDA or WP are left out of the net, and how representative a sampling to the population from any conclusions drawn from this effort in this Speakers' Corner ?
  
  You may as well as stand at the real Speakers' Corner at Hong Lim Green and conduct the same sampling.
  
  Do not give yourself too much credit by flattering yourself in having the ability to affect me in a personal way.
  
  My reaction on the manner in which you conduct business in a slippery manner, when I had hopes of engaging someone who seems to be clear and purposeful with his stand on issues.
  
  
• Rock^Star

  4 May 07, 12:58

  Originally posted by Atobe:
  
  Were the activists against the autocratic and monopolistic rule of the Communist Party in the Peoples' Republic of China supported by the majority of China's Citizens ?
  
  Yet despite the tacit objections voiced by various US Administration to the manner in which the Chinese Government cracked down on its Citizens, the US Government continue to do business with it.
  
  Is the Singapore Government on par with the Myanmar Government with its International Standing ?
  
  Firstly, China and Singapore are way too different. We are a little red dot compared to China's economic potential. Enough said.
  
  Do not give yourself too much credit by flattering yourself in having the ability to affect me in a personal way.
  
  Never intended to credit myself in anyway but I sense a "high and mighty mentality" among your words.

  Ok point noted and you contributed that Singaporeans should proclaim to have Chee Soon Juan.
• SingaporeTyrannosaur

  4 May 07, 12:59

  How come Rock Star keeps flip flopping about his positions ah?
• Rock^Star

  4 May 07, 13:07

  Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:

  How come Rock Star keeps flip flopping about his positions ah?

  In what way?
• Atobe

  4 May 07, 13:07

  Originally posted by LazerLordz:

  I'm proud to have CSJ as a Singaporean, as an activist. But I wouldn't want him to be an MP.
  
  

  Activists may not necessarily be good political administrators, but no one is built in the same way.
  
  Kim Dae Jung - the South Korean politician - fought for democratic freedom through three dictatorial one-man Presidencies, and was repeatedly jailed, and even sentenced to death which was repealed to a life sentence.
  
  He subsequently won a Presidential Election out of respect for his courage and personal persistence, but unfortunately he was not an administrator.
  
  Neither was Mandela an effective President, and we will never know if the mass rallies that Martijn Luther King held were his own administrative genius.
  
  We will never know CSJ's abilities but we certainly know his thoughts and action plans in the books that he write.
  
  Was LKY the architect of Singapore's success, or was it the support that he received from the political colleagues that he gathered to supervise and oversee the entire administration, and the recruitment of capable talents to administer and execute HIS Master Plan.
  
  It all depends on the person, if he is prepared to trust his own people, and if he is able to lead and supervise, to macro- or micro- manage.
  
  We have seen the failed leadership of Carter, and the empty moral boosting leadership of Reagan that create a huge deficit to the US Treasury.
  
  Then again, LKY was an activist at age 25 years, and was active in the Labor Movement to garner his political support. He had the shrewd calculative capacity to play tough poker with his political opponents, and bluffed his way through into power.
  
  With battle tested experiences that LKY had given, CSJ may yet prove to be someone whom we may not expect to at this stage.
  
  Can this be said of LHL - who had a dream ride through SAF recruit stage into OTC, from 2Lt to BG, and helicoptered into the Cabinet without any major battle scars.
  
  Crisis always throw up new and stronger pesonalities.
  
  
  
• Rock^Star

  4 May 07, 13:28

  Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:

  How come Rock Star keeps flip flopping about his positions ah?

  I'm afraid such statements are unnecessary if one cannot clarify himself.
• Atobe

  4 May 07, 13:33

  Originally posted by Rock^Star:
  

  Post by Atobe:
  Were the activists against the autocratic and monopolistic rule of the Communist Party in the Peoples' Republic of China supported by the majority of China's Citizens ?
  
  Yet despite the tacit objections voiced by various US Administration to the manner in which the Chinese Government cracked down on its Citizens, the US Government continue to do business with it.
  
  Is the Singapore Government on par with the Myanmar Government with its International Standing ?
  
  Firstly, China and Singapore are way too different. We are a little red dot compared to China's economic potential. Enough said.

  Contrary to your pessimistic outlook, LKY said that despite our size, the world will miss us if Singapore disappear.
  

  
  Do not give yourself too much credit by flattering yourself in having the ability to affect me in a personal way.
  
  Never intended to credit myself in anyway but I sense a "high and mighty mentality" among your words.

  Now you are being personal.
  

  
  Ok point noted and you contributed that Singaporeans should proclaim to have Chee Soon Juan.
  

  Not exactly in your purposefully petulant way as you put it - as a "proclamation" - but at least an acknowledgement to the fact of his personal sacrifices made, that from his wife and children, and parents.
  
  The same acknowledgment should also be creditted to all those whom LKY had falsely accused and incarcerated for seemingly endless years - simply to obtain a forced confession with the enticement of managed freedom.
  
  Singaporeans should be proud that we have persons in our admist with such strong and indomitable human spirit that we read in the plights of others being persecuted; not knowing that we have the same people in our own community, who have the physical and mental strength to withstand the psychological pain of the loss of their Prime.
  
  
• SingaporeTyrannosaur

  5 May 07, 00:56

  Originally posted by Rock^Star:

  I'm afraid such statements are unnecessary if one cannot clarify himself.

  Let's just say that it probably appears to the observers who have been reading this exchange between you and Adobe that one of the parties appears to be making it up as he goes along.
• walesa

  5 May 07, 06:26

  Originally posted by Kuali Baba:

  Off Topic: No offence to 'walesa', but the real Lech Wa³êsa didn't exactly make a great president while he was in office.

  No, he didn't and in fact, never possessed anything to suggest he'd make a successful statesman. It is indeed ironic that he came to power on the basis of the popularity of everything he did with Solidarnosc. (I suppose the basis behind the support which propelled Walesa to power is no more ironic than what keeps the tyrants - ie.the past achievements - in power now)
  
  He was, however, as great a revolutionary as any in the 20th Century. Then again, I don't recall anyone being both a great revolutionary and a great statesman in the 20th Century...
  
  
• walesa

  5 May 07, 06:39

  Originally posted by Rock^Star:

  Aung had intervention from the US govt, what about Chee? He does not have strong international recognition overseas, much less at home.
  
  

  This is an interesting point. Actually, the US government did not intervene because of Suu-Kyi. They were prepared to take the necessary measures (ie.sanctions and pressuring through international condemnation) against the Burmese junta anyway. Suu-Kyi's home detention merely an ammunition for them to drive home the point - afterall, even if you were to pick a fight with someone on the streets, you'd still find some "reason(s)" to justify your actions, however unjustifiable they may be, wouldn't you?
  
  

  Originally posted by LazerLordz:

  I'm proud to have CSJ as a Singaporean, as an activist. But I wouldn't want him to be an MP.
  

  No offence, but I'm genuinely curious about the stance of people like you. Do you seriously believe CSJ will conduct himself in the manner he currently does if he were a MP of a democratically-elected parliament(and I literally mean one free of the influence of the fascists)?
• oxford mushroom

  5 May 07, 06:55

  CSJ is great for comic relief: nothing more, nothing less. If Singaporeans are daft enough to think of him as a political leader, the country is in danger indeed.
• mancha

  5 May 07, 08:29

  The other leaders are examples to follow
  CSJ is an example not to follow.
• Rock^Star

  5 May 07, 21:31

  Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:

  Let's just say that it probably appears to the observers who have been reading this exchange between you and Adobe that one of the parties appears to be making it up as he goes along.

  You mean those parts about me hissing and then slithering? I can touch my conscience and swear to my faith if need be, that I had never harboured such intentions. Enough said.
  
  I suggest you read those parts carefully again. You have done yourself a disfavour by following the other party's opinion of me.
  
  
• Rock^Star

  5 May 07, 21:35

  Originally posted by walesa:

  No offence, but I'm genuinely curious about the stance of people like you. Do you seriously believe CSJ will conduct himself in the manner he currently does if he were a MP of a democratically-elected parliament(and I literally mean one free of the influence of the fascists)?

  Well, he said "as an activist", not that of an MP....
• Atobe

  6 May 07, 02:44

  Originally posted by oxford mushroom:

  CSJ is great for comic relief: nothing more, nothing less. If Singaporeans are daft enough to think of him as a political leader, the country is in danger indeed.

  Frankly, between CSJ and a Mushroom from Oxford, we know the real comic and THE person that LKY seriously fear become successful in Politics.
  
  Between CSJ and a Mushroom from Oxford, who do you think LKY will give serious attention to ?
  
  The Singaporeans in this Speakers' Corner will be totally daft if anyone take your pompous opinion beyond its face value - let alone giving your opinions any degree of seriousness.
  
  Listening to you is the first dangerous step, believing you in any way will be disaster, rejecting you will bring comic relief.
  
  
  
• walesa

  6 May 07, 03:51

  Originally posted by Rock^Star:

  Well, he said "as an activist", not that of an MP....

  That's my question, isn't it?
  
  I'm saying if this had the makings of a democracy, comprising a democratically-elected parliament, would he still think CSJ would actually conduct himself the way he currently does?
• Atobe

  6 May 07, 10:02

  Originally posted by walesa:
  
  That's my question, isn't it?
  
  I'm saying if this had the makings of a democracy, comprising a democratically-elected parliament, would he still think CSJ would actually conduct himself the way he currently does?

  A voice of reason in this parch land.
  
  During the early 1950s, LKY was a young 25 year old activist fighting against Colonial Rule, he was an inspiration to his generation and garnered the support of a bunch of like minded colleagues to join him in his battle plan to see Singapore out of the clutches of UK.
  
  After demolishing all his political rivals, and clearing up the social and economic threats from an unruly population, he began his slow methodical grip over Singapore that began on the day he stepped into Office.
  
  LKY changed his outlook from that of a politically idealistic anti-colonial activist to that of a political realist schemer - read his U-Turn and contradicting speeches between the two periods that I have posted in the other thread "Animal Farm".
  
  If any of the retired colleagues from his First Team are allowed to speak, what do you think they will be saying to the changes in the views and policies of LKY ?
  
  As a sample, in his retirement, Rajaratnam - a trusted political partner of LKY - had spoken out against the materialistic priority of Singaporeans, and the perpetual drive towards 'MONEYTHEISM' - a word which he coined. Was he criticizing Singaporeans in his retirement, or was there an underlying tone criticizing the manner that LKY's Government is driving Singaporeans in this direction ?
  
  As each of this first generation passed, memory fade, LHL's job is made even easier until CSJ had to step in to challenge his legitimacy.
  
  CSJ may yet change to show his intellectual brilliance in the pristine Civil environment of Parliament, unless the Law of the Concrete Jungle that rule the Political Environment in the streets are brought into the holy house of Parliament - as dictated by LKY.
  
  LKY was not persecuted by the Colonial Government - in the same manner that LKY's government had persecuted CSJ, which explains for the unblinking and unapologetic ruthlessness that LKY used the Law to persecute others.
  
  We can have hope that CSJ having experienced the bitter persecution will be more magnanimous in victory and will proceed to change the political environment for a better Singapore.
  
  There is cause to believe that CSJ can and will do it, as Mandela and Kim Dae Jung have been similarly persecuted and suppressed by vicious governments in their respective countries. Both have turned out to be magnanimous towards the entire government system in liberalizing the entire political system, and allowing a more Open Society to blossom.
  
  
  
• (human)

  6 May 07, 13:12

  Just found this interesting video CSJ's Message From Prison
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnLqpYupQfg&mode=related&search=
  
  
• hloc

  6 May 07, 13:20

  Originally posted by oxford mushroom:

  CSJ is great for comic relief: nothing more, nothing less. If Singaporeans are daft enough to think of him as a political leader, the country is in danger indeed.

  This i agree..... i would go for JBJ or Chaim...... will never go for Chee. Can't agree with his method of doing things.
• Atobe

  6 May 07, 13:52

  Originally posted by hloc:

  This i agree..... i would go for JBJ or Chaim...... will never go for Chee. Can't agree with his method of doing things.

  The Ruling Party has already 82 seats out of 84 in the Singapore Parliament.
  
  Why do you want to reduce your options by ONE with the exclusion of CSJ ?
  
  Comparing Chiam in his 40 odd years in Parliament, he had hardly been effective even in his parliamentary debates compared to a political newbie in Sylvia Lim from WP. Is he deserving of your favoritism ?
  
  JBJ has also locked horns with the Ruling Party in the same manner as CSJ - he had also been as reckless, if not even more so than CSJ.
  
  Why are you viewing CSJ in such a prejudicial angle more so than Chiam or JBJ, and on some miscellaneous non-specifc 'ACTIONS' ?
  
  What is your expectation from an Opposition Member - passiveness, inaction, quiet submission, co-operation with the Government to maintain the unfair status quo on Singaporeans ?
  
  It is odd that you will give credit to JBJ for all his similar pro-active confrontation against the Government on each and every policy that this government has created to burden Singaporeans, which are nearly identical to that of CSJ's activism.
  
  We can only wonder why the propaganda machinery has been so successful in casting CSJ in such a different view compared to JBJ ?
  
  Could it be that it has been more then 20 years since the last propaganda was made to cast JBJ in a different light, and memory of JBJ has changed since he became more mellow and older with age ?
  
  You may yet have the opportunity to see JBJ in action - if he is able to get himself off the Bankruptcy List with his latest efforts to clear his name. You will then see how close an operating style between JBJ and CSJ. Let us hope then that you will change your views about CSJ, or worst still that you do not change your favorable views of JBJ.
  
  Singaporeans should learn to give themselves the opportunity to let the Opposition Members represent us in the present ciircumstances when so few dare to speak up on our behalf.
  
  My views on CSJ is based on this line of thought, and I will defend the position of the under dog opposition members from whichever party they may come from. Unfortunately, the brunt of the negative attention is continuously directed at CSJ, and yet nothing positive has been said at the same time about the activities of other Opposition members. I wonder why ?
  
  Is CSJ beginning to make some kind of impression on Singaporeans, the political awareness that he said he has set out to achieve amongst Singaporeans - to be concious of their lost Political Rights ?
  
  Is the present upsurge in character assassination and negative views raised towards CSJ, a consequential reaction to the level of positive awareness and growing support, amidst the realisation that what he has been warning us about - for the last 20 years - is turning out to be true ?
  
  
  
• Rock^Star

  6 May 07, 17:52

  Perhaps I may summarise like this:
  
  Chee Soon Juan is branded a joke even though he is not entirely one.
  
  Our 154th ranked media has painted him as such even though he may offer some sound arguments.
  
  The next time he does his "Hong Lim Park" kind of thing again, he's going to jail. And he will again in the near future.
  
  Singaporeans cannot see a "madman" (he's not mad though) as an elected MP. He will never have the chance to speak in parliament ever again.
  
  That shall happen as long as our media is under one party's control, regardless of how valid his ideologies are, how passionate he is......
  
  Other parties, especially WP, have a good chance for seats in the next election but CSJ? No way, he's just too different.
• googoomuck

  6 May 07, 23:33

  Opinions are like assholes, everybody’s got one – Clint Eastwood
  
  Some people do not support CSJ because he has an image problem in public speaking.
  
  His speaking style can be fine tuned to improve his image. Not a problem.
  
  I was thinking, since he was interested in politics, had he chose to join PAP, he could have kept his job as a lecturer and might have been an MP today.