singapore failure to develop people character as a whole
-
Say january, why don't you actively involve yourself in some of the discussions in here instead of constantly saying "well, people will always find some way to support their own point of view.". Because not only does such a statement say, or add nothing NOTHING to plently of the issues in here, it is also getting annoying.
For instance, you are attempting to make an objective statement that Singapore has failed to develop the people's character as a whole, and we can really keep saying "well that's your perspective, you are just finding the parts that support your theory.” And keep on insisting that “people with your opinion are simply finding ways to find a fault with the way our nation raises our young minds.”
This is what C.S Lewis calls the fallacy of Bulverism:Bulverism is a logical fallacy coined by C. S. Lewis where rather than proving that an argument is wrong, a person instead assumes it wrong, and then goes on to explain why the other person held that argument. It is essentially a circumstantial ad hominem argument.
So unless you attempt to seriously and specifically engage people on many of the issues in here instead of to keep saying vague things like “people will always find ways to support their opinion.” (which actually applies to all men) without considering much of the evidence that is thrown into the air for discussion in here… nobody will take what you have to say seriously at all. It is just a meaningless cycle of circular logic that really goes nowhere with each post. At the end of the day one might as well say "you have your point of view and we have ours" without making any headway.
Lewis wrote about this in an essay of the same name (in 1941) which is available to us in the book God in the Dock. He explains the origin of this term as follows:
“ You must show that a man is wrong before you start explaining why he is wrong. The modern method is to assume without discussion that he is wrong and then distract his attention from this (the only real issue) by busily explaining how he became so silly.
In the course of the last fifteen years I have found this vice so common that I have had to invent a name for it. I call it "Bulverism". Some day I am going to write the biography of its imaginary inventor, Ezekiel Bulver, whose destiny was determined at the age of five when he heard his mother say to his father—who had been maintaining that two sides of a triangle were together greater than a third—"Oh you say that because you are a man." "At that moment", E. Bulver assures us, "there flashed across my opening mind the great truth that refutation is no necessary part of argument. Assume that your opponent is wrong, and the world will be at your feet. Attempt to prove that he is wrong or (worse still) try to find out whether he is wrong or right, and the national dynamism of our age will thrust you to the wall." That is how Bulver became one of the makers of the Twentieth Century.
Not to mention they are pointing out a very valid point. As Confucius and Sun Tzu has long pointed out: A nation which is ruled by a system without morals will have that rot spread down to its people. Don’t expect Singaporeans to be raised up with lofty ideas of “intelligence”, “freedom” and “humanism” when these have been long said to be “non bread and butter” issues that should not be the focus of the Singaporean life.
And guess who are the ones who said it? -
From Bulverism by C. S. Lewis:
So sorry, we're just not going to take you seriously until you properly engage in discussion in here instead of spinning your normal, meaningless and somewhat one-track answers.
“ Suppose I think, after doing my accounts, that I have a large balance at the bank. And suppose you want to find out whether this belief of mine is "wishful thinking." You can never come to any conclusion by examining my psychological condition. Your only chance of finding out is to sit down and work through the sum yourself. When you have checked my figures, then, and then only, will you know whether I have that balance or not. If you find my arithmetic correct, then no amount of vapouring about my psychological condition can be anything but a waste of time. If you find my arithmetic wrong, then it may be relevant to explain psychologically how I came to be so bad at my arithmetic, and the doctrine of the concealed wish will become relevant—but only after you have yourself done the sum and discovered me to be wrong on purely arithmetical grounds. It is the same with all thinking and all systems of thought. If you try to find out which are tainted by speculating about the wishes of the thinkers, you are merely making a fool of yourself. You must first find out on purely logical grounds which of them do, in fact, break down as arguments. Afterwards, if you like, go on and discover the psychological causes of the error. -
You go, Dino!Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Say january, why don't you actively involve yourself in some of the discussions in here instead of constantly saying "well, people will always find some way to support their own point of view.". Because not only does such a statement say, or add nothing NOTHING to plently of the issues in here, it is also getting annoying.
For instance, you are attempting to make an objective statement that Singapore has failed to develop the people's character as a whole, and we can really keep saying "well that's your perspective, you are just finding the parts that support your theory.” And keep on insisting that “people with your opinion are simply finding ways to find a fault with the way our nation raises our young minds.”
This is what C.S Lewis calls the fallacy of Bulverism:
So unless you attempt to seriously and specifically engage people on many of the issues in here instead of to keep saying vague things like “people will always find ways to support their opinion.” (which actually applies to all men) without considering much of the evidence that is thrown into the air for discussion in here… nobody will take what you have to say seriously at all. It is just a meaningless cycle of circular logic that really goes nowhere with each post. At the end of the day one might as well say "you have your point of view and we have ours" without making any headway.
Not to mention they are pointing out a very valid point. As Confucius and Sun Tzu has long pointed out: A nation which is ruled by a system without morals will have that rot spread down to its people. Don’t expect Singaporeans to be raised up with lofty ideas of “intelligence”, “freedom” and “humanism” when these have been long said to be “non bread and butter” issues that should not be the focus of the Singaporean life.
And guess who are the ones who said it?
Ironically, TS seems like just the sort of person who might be in need of some character development.
And yeah january's "Bulverism" is annoying.. comes across as self-reassurance rather than solid arguments, really. ick. -
I mean dude, I'm not trying to shoot him but if you say that we have failed to develop our soul and character as a whole, then look to the root cause of the problem and see what the solution really takes. Somehow january fails at this crucial step and remains the role of the lamenter, a person who makes a lot of noise and talk but NATO.
People in here have pointed out very real reasons why as a nation we seem to lack soul, and it goes all the way down to our basic ethos, the way we are run and the way our system thinks. For some reason these are the things that january does not want to touch, or claim not to have any problem with that is causing this lack of character... but at the same time fails to produce any other alternative reason except to keep saying "we don't have enough this and that".
How then, if we do not change our way of though from "character and all those ideas are less important then bread and butter issues" and make the real steps in our soceity to change them... can there be any real change or solution to his "big" problem?
What january does is like saying a car cannot move, but refuses all reasons and solutions (checking the engine, refueling) and keeps saying "we should be going somewhere, why can't we go?" as well as "oh well, you work at a petrol station, of course you will want to think the problem is that we have a lack of fuel".
At the end of the day, his talk is pretty meaingless. Unless we find the REAL reason behind our lack of national character, all his emo antics about lack of this and that will be utterly useless, and in that respect plenty of people in here are probably far more along in finding a soul for Singapore then him, who makes a lot of noise but is never willing to even peek at any possible reasons and solutions.
Sorry if that sounded harsh, but all this unproductive, pretentious philosophical gibberish must stop. Seesh... -
There’s a difference between the intellectual, and the pseudointellectual. Not all people who think to be intelligent is a virtue end up being true intellectual, but often of the person who is of false “lofty and brave” attitudes that on even basic examination, turn out to be utter pretentious rubbish.
To draw an example, not all people who can argue a lot make good debaters, some might just be simply dull or stubborn as opposed to having the real wit to debate. In the same vein, not all people who keep bemoaning the lack of character and thinking in our society are actually real thinkers… they might just be holding the “thinking” appearance and thinks that qualifies them to be an intellectual. -
I find his replies are just like our govt's... airs a concern but only take his own views, or "yes" man views, into consideration.
He is like a painter who only sees things in monochrome! Frus!
-
So you're saying if this regime decides to educate you on how you've been shortchanged (be it your wages or social welfare not commensurating with what first-world countries should have) compared to other first-world nations, the support for them would not be compromised?Originally posted by january:i dun see how making people more intelligent will jeopadise the country..
cannot you see that singaporeans still have narrow point of view in life. when government implement policies like rasing the minister pay to attract capable people, people gets defensive and worry about their own pay.
singaporean are not emotionally mature and intelligence enough to understand things and how society and economy works other than small things in life. They are not good reasoners and do not have good knowledge . they do not think enough other than their own personal life. As a result, this lead to bias and narrow knowledge.
the consequence of not having smarter citizens is that very things singapore government do, he has to pacify and waste time reply to its citizens complaint instead of citizens who sees the large picture same of government and is thus acting as a coherent force as a nation.
i not saying that singapore government does not make mistakes. it sure does and needs it people to point out to. However, singaporeans are not that intelligent about politics and reality yet to understand problem outside their personal life. Those that i see trying to argue about government decisions are old people or middle age people who do not use internet but likes to talk in kopitiam and on gathering occasions but they are not equppied with sufficient knowledge. They just argue and it feels good for them.
that is why for singapore to be strong, it requires to make its citizens as smart as possible not in career wise but life wise.
i dare to say that readers of younger generation is fortunate that they are exposed to internet and forums at such young age because they can get good advices and insights from smart people among the loads of rubbish.
when i was young, computers is only for playing games and typing essays.
If they were to educate you and let you in on all their draconian practises which are anything but democratic, it wouldn't change the perception its misguided masses have of them?
Maybe you'd like to think about why North Korea is so desperate to ensure their own citizens do not come into contact with anything from the outside world. -
Maybe you would like to tell me how is it a country like the US with so many social ills/vices and such a democratic environment that their politicians often reach impasses when it comes to formulating policies can still emerge as the country with the strongest economy on the planet?Originally posted by january:If you think that singapore government is really a power holder. then can you give example of a better government. I never study other government before but arguing with government and leader is very common according to the news in read from the internet.
If there is a better government and better country out there and migration process is not very costly, and after weighing all options, then i will seriously consider migrating myself. -
roberttehkh wrote:
BCK,
Metaphorical (BCK) replied:
You seow har? If give korea & finland people be our pm & ministers, then all the sg real ministers & Lhl do what? They the one kena elected by citizens! Sg got no gov talent meh? must be other countrys colony! Seow!
RT:
Actually like the benchmarking of ministers' salaries to few lottery winning lucky CEOs in the private sector, it all got started as an issue when government wants to get more pays by selective comparison.
There is now no need for proper argument with this kind of comparison as it is about use of power. So what is wrong if SIA pilots also want this kind of benchmarking. In fact their benchmarking is more reasonable being industry to industry or apple-to-apple and not trying to ask for a first-prize winning ticket in the big sweep.
When government says it wants to improve the economy or globalise it must outsource local jobs to foreigners. Actually citizens find that many foreigners are not talents but come in to learn or under-study local's talents on the jobs to replace them with a few dollar cheaper.
So if we have this kind of outsourcing going on to replace citizens, government actually is telling citizens they can outsource ministers' jobs as it will mean great saving of at least $23 million of public taxpayers' monies while getting more competitive and talented ministers with good track records in turning around economy.
What is wrong with this kind of outsourcing? Many countries have employed foreign mentors who are more action-oriented who will solve problems rather than talking about all the talents without improving lives of ordinary citizens.
It is not small amount to save the $23 million per year over-paid miniters' salaries as to citizens' knowledge many Finland's good ministers are willing to be paid less than half of what our ministers pay themselves against people's strong objections.
These foreign talented foreign talents will help our citizens to improve their lives so why not? A white cat can catch mice so can a blank cat.
RT:
As we many forumers have pointed out to you before, whenever you try to give advice to people like on the need to let ministers selectively benchmark their salaries and writing their own pay cheques to retain their talents, you are actually telling us to scold the government for their mistakes and wrong policies and for not setting themselves as good examples.
You can tell the government this is what happened whenever you defend their mistakes and not be so stubborn and hopefully things will change. -
originally posted by january:
This guy is talking about the lack of intellectualism and character in our nation and then thinks that disagreements and alternative voices in any government is a bad thing compared to a rubber stamp parliment?
If you think that singapore government is really a power holder. then can you give example of a better government. I never study other government before but arguing with government and leader is very common according to the news in read from the internet.
If there is a better government and better country out there and migration process is not very costly, and after weighing all options, then i will seriously consider migrating myself.
Talk about self contradiction! It's like saying we want our people to be intelligent and creative but everybody must end up painting the same picture and reaching the same conclusions!
Is this not one of the main reasons why our half-hearted drive for creativity produced dismal results in our nation? "Please be creative, BUT don't creative anything that isn't tradition." -
Non-Elite-but-Caring wrote:
From claiming talents which means they deserve the right to write their own pay cheques they progress to arrogant behaviour and next they will tell the citizens not to ask too many questions or for any explanations of any wrongs like the NKF or Shin Corp or whatever they are doing.
If the country has leaders who are top elites uncaring, might as well
become a colonised country as part of US, Australia or UK.
I think though we were not governed by our own people, our lifes were
better of then, isn't it?
From the look of things, I don't think the people's welfare are actually
and sincerely being looked after by our own so-called world best
leaders, after so many cases of unhappy happenings, such as:
1. NKF saga and TT Durai went scot free of any criminal charges, after
such a long time for investigations and taking actions.
2. Optus of Australia - purchased by Singtel - has suffered major losses.
Caused by misjudgement, lack of business acument or being too careless
because of greed?
3. Shin Corp saga and subsequent tople of PM Thaksin. Why purchased
for total control when Thai laws only allow for 49% for foreign ownership?
4. iTV saga in Thailand, whereby the Thai govt had won the case and
had demanded for the back payment of fees, fines and penalties.
What has happened to iTV now?
5. Ministers' Exhorbitant Pay Rise beyond conscience, thereby forcing
the PM having to volunteer to donate his salary increment to charities
for the next five years (but he would still benefit from pay lesser
income tax of about 11.9% due to the double deduction of the
donated money).
6. Increase of GST by 40% in order to help the "poor" ministers and
top civil servants whose families are suffering and who may become
corrupted if not paid the exhorbitantly highly salaries.
(Now we know what he meant by the word "poor"
when LHL said the increase of gst was to help the "poor").
7. Souring of relationship with Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand,
Australia and China within a short spell of time. Why? Becoming too
arrogant and cocky?
8. Increasing the President's salary for five consecutive times between
2005 and 2007 (twice in 2005, once in 2006 and twice again in 2007).
Explanation was given only for the first increment, but for the subsequent
4 increments, there were no justifications announced. Why?
Taking the people for granted or as fools?
That is something very unusual isn't it? I begin to think whether it was
because of having to ask him to sign some very "important" approvals
that have caused the need to increase his pay at such short and
frequent intervals??? Am I wrong?
9. Many more that I think you guys can add on.
If citizens ask too much they will have to attend to too many problems and cannot concentrate on governing the country.
This was already stated to be the reason why the ministers must spend time to fix the oppositions who are regarded as too troublesome. -
We have Salman and Oxford Mushroom,now come another January!!!
I wonder what is next? -
February?Originally posted by zenden9:We have Salman and Oxford Mushroom,now come another January!!!
I wonder what is next? -
wow
Salman
wonder where is he now -
you miss out GazelleOriginally posted by zenden9:We have Salman and Oxford Mushroom,now come another January!!!
I wonder what is next? -
Is it suspicious that when OM takes a hike from this Speaker's Corner, Salman will make an appearance.Originally posted by zenden9:We have Salman and Oxford Mushroom,now come another January!!!
I wonder what is next?
Salman has not been heard for at least two months since my last tangle with him, and that was when OM was lost in cyberspace. -
are you advocatingOriginally posted by january:[blah blah blah...]
cannot you see that singaporeans still have narrow point of view in life. when government implement policies like rasing the minister pay to attract capable people, people gets defensive and worry about their own pay.
singaporean are not emotionally mature and intelligence enough to understand things and how society and economy works other than small things in life. They are not good reasoners and do not have good knowledge . they do not think enough other than their own personal life. As a result, this lead to bias and narrow knowledge.
[blah blah blah...]
Nation before Society
Society before Family
Family before Self?
I find that very idealistic, and does not work out. I believe in the following:
Self before Family
Family before Society
Society before Nation
This makes more sense. If you do not have enough to feed yourself, how to worry about family? If family does not have enough to be happy, how to worry about society?
Society avg salary is between 1.5k to 4k a month, so who has time to worry about nation when all of us here are struggling to make ends meet?
You talk about philosophy, so let me tell you, that my philosophy in life is to first ensure I have a comfortable living, before I turn to helping those around me.
Just look at the smart business people, such as Bill Gates for example, earn until he has more than enough, before start his campaign to help the needy. -
I think LKY once made a reference to the statement
"Ask not what a nation can do for you, but what you can do for the nation"
Essentially, that means to me, that I should work like a slave without complaints to support the ridiculous (and stupid) high pay of the ministers. -
I personally think the biggest culprit is internet and computer game.Originally posted by january:all responsiblity should not go to the government and education ministry. i apologise for this.
citizens themselves, parents should also have some responsiblity theselves. -
That is why character building is so pathetic and inferior, compared to China, India or even Europe....
I urge all who can to migrate...no point staying in this little piece of red rock -
i think internet is one of the reason to make youngsters n pple getting wrong message as there r pple wif hidden agenda who spread social ill over.
-
Just like the one who posted before you.Originally posted by 798:i think internet is one of the reason to make youngsters n pple getting wrong message as there r pple wif hidden agenda who spread social ill over. -
our governments have already set a bad example by telling us the majority rule over the minority. the way the large group or gang trying to fix a small number tell us dat Bullying is allowed in Sg.
these give us the perception dat when we should listen to majority as they r always right. it actually make the locals tend to be groupthink. -
Well its the truth guys....I say its freedm of choice....let all who wants to leave, leave.....no point staying here...of course gazelle can choose to stay
-
If it is freedom of choice, then why do you have to keep bugging Singaporeans to leave Singapore? Are you trying to say that you are smarter than singaporeans living in Singapore and we need your advice us how to make our own decision for our own future?Originally posted by Coquitlam:Well its the truth guys....I say its freedm of choice....let all who wants to leave, leave.....no point staying here...of course gazelle can choose to stay