Wooing the super-rich (from BT)
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Originally posted by Gazelle:
If I am super ignorant, does it make you super smart ?
1) Again you just demostrated that you are ignorant about how Singapore economy function. Singapore has anticipated that such things will happen, and that is the reason why Singapore currency DID NOT COLLAPSE.
2) Indonesia and Malaysia are 2 of our largest trading partners, if their currency collapse, do you think that this will not affect us as they will still be able to import goods from Singapore?
3) If Singapore economy is solely dependent on these 2 economies, I am sure we will instantly hit technical recession overnight and it will not have to wait for a few years for it to happen. And please dont conveniently ignoring the fact that singapore government has been aggressively pushing for FTA and bilateral trade with other economy so that we could spread our risk.
i] Singapore currency DID NOT COLLAPSE for a variety of reason - the banks were were operating under a different set of rules from that in Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia, all of which have seen large amount of funds being handed out as unsecured loans that are expertly dressed with the connivance of bank managers or directors.
Just as a matter of development on this point - with all the expertise and experience that DBS had when it took over the Thai Danu Bank, was it able to detect the additional hidden losses that escaped their attention - NOT ONCE, but TWICE ? This will show the extent of corruption that help caused the financial melt down of the Thai Banking System.
2) Yes, Indonesia and Malaysia are 2 of our largest trading partners, what do you think - ''if their currency collapse, {do you think that} - IF this will not affect us as they will still be able to import goods from Singapore'' ?
Instead of asking me for my thinking, what are your super thoughts on this subject - as mine was said in my last response that you have diligently quoted but somehow have not the capacity to absorb ?
3) What super ''obsolete'' rubbish have you now conjured with your statement in Point 3 of your response ?
''If Singapore economy is solely dependent on these 2 economies, I am sure we will instantly hit technical recession overnight and it will not have to wait for a few years for it to happen.'' - Has your memory fallen short with your false sense of co*cky confidence in your reply ?
Did Singapore not enter into a slide almost immediately following the crash of the THREE economies of Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia in 1997 ? Did you forget our own stock market crashed, and our currency was dragged down to a 10 year low against the US Dollar, and which have still not regained its level of US$1.00 to SGD1.41 ?
''And please dont conveniently ignoring the fact that singapore government has been aggressively pushing for FTA and bilateral trade with other economy so that we could spread our risk.'' - If the Singapore government has been aggressively pushing for FTA and bilateral trade - is it odd that Singapore should enter into your period of ''technical recession a few years after the melt down in Malaysia and Indonesia'' ?
Was it not a fact that the FTAs were made in the usual ''after the fact'' hind sight'', when there was not the TALENT nor FORESIGHT in expecting the worst from events in our neighbor's backyard ? -
Originally posted by Gazelle:
This is where the self-acclaimed genius in one's own intelligence will betray oneself.
Originally posted by Atobe:
Do we need to find it amazing that it takes so little imagination for the unthinking to believe everything said by a politician on its face value ?
Robert Ingersoll said : "In the republic of mediocrity, genius is dangerous''
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[b]You dont need to be a genius or someone trying to be too smart to judge if the IR operator is capable of delivering the 70/30 business model for their IR. If you think the IR bid is driven by politics, then could you explain why non of the GLCs was awarded the projects?
70/30 business model for whose benefit ? Singapore Inc, or Singaporeans (the Private Citizens ) ?
Recovering an investment of $10 BILLION in 30 or 60 years is no small feat, and the only way to get it back is from a captive audience ever willing and eager to hit the jackpot.
Ultimately, who do you think is the winner - Singapore Inc. with you know who as the God-Father; or the average Singaporean Residents (PR included) ? -
[quote]You dont need to be a genius or someone trying to be too smart to judge if the IR operator is capable of delivering the 70/30 business model for their IR. If you think the IR bid is driven by politics, then could you explain why non of the GLCs was awarded the projects? [quote]
urm... Gazelle, can you kindly stop repeating your question again and again?
I already answered you before (and please stop asking for proof and statistics, stop behaving like the govt), that our GLCs, Singapore companies, none of them has ever run such a specific type of huge project and none has ever operated a casino.
So its always a safer bet to bring in experts in this area. -
If you want to whin, please whin with some logic because what you are saying it no just childish, but full of nonsense.Originally posted by Atobe:This is where the self-acclaimed genius in one's own intelligence will betray oneself.
70/30 business model for whose benefit ? Singapore Inc, or Singaporeans (the Private Citizens ) ?
Recovering an investment of $10 BILLION in 30 or 60 years is no small feat, and the only way to get it back is from a captive audience ever willing and eager to hit the jackpot.
Ultimately, who do you think is the winner - Singapore Inc. with you know who as the God-Father; or the average Singaporean Residents (PR included) ?
a) Casino operation in Singaopore is subject to much higher tax as compare to the other non-gaming business such as hotel, MICE, and themepark. IF you are the government looking to pocket more money, wont you prefer 70% of the IR to be gaming business?
b) I am not sure if you are aware that both RWS and LV Sand have recently issue out a few hundred dollar construction projects to Singapore companies? The Singapore construction industry is booming and it is already benefiting people form the industry.
c) RWS and LV Sands has already started the recruitment for managers and they will start a massive recruitment exercise really soon. Doesnt Singaporeans benefits from that? -
a) Name me a country on the planet where the gaming tax isn't one of the top 5 taxes in that particular country.Originally posted by Gazelle:If you want to whin, please whin with some logic because what you are saying it no just childish, but full of nonsense.
a) Casino operation in Singaopore is subject to much higher tax as compare to the other non-gaming business such as hotel, MICE, and themepark. IF you are the government looking to pocket more money, wont you prefer 70% of the IR to be gaming business?
b) I am not sure if you are aware that both RWS and LV Sand have recently issue out a few hundred dollar construction projects to Singapore companies? The Singapore construction industry is booming and it is already benefiting people form the industry.
c) RWS and LV Sands has already started the recruitment for managers and they will start a massive recruitment exercise really soon. Doesnt Singaporeans benefits from that?
b) and c) : Of course Singaporeans like you will benefit from that. Continue accepting wages for an industry that's below its market worth for a similar position in LV Sand's operations elsewhere while LV Sands and the fascists laugh their way to the bank with an increase in operating revenue (even after taking into account of the taxes)... -
Walesa, I dont quite understand why are you asking this irrelevent question comparing gaming taxes? I am not sure if you know what are we talking about in the first place.Originally posted by walesa:a) Name me a country on the planet where the gaming tax isn't one of the top 5 taxes in that particular country.
b) and c) : Of course Singaporeans like you will benefit from that. Continue accepting wages for an industry that's below its market worth for a similar position in LV Sand's operations elsewhere while LV Sands and the fascists laugh their way to the bank with an increase in operating revenue (even after taking into account of the taxes)...
LV Sand laughing to the bank? you must have forgotten that Marina Sands and RWS are the MOST expensive IRs in the world. -
You are again saying that the reason the our GLCs lost out in the IR bid is because both Capitaland and Keppeland has no experince in gaming industry even though they are partnering (as a MINORITY shareholder) gaming giants like MGM, HARRAHs, and Kerzner?Originally posted by soul_rage:[quote]You dont need to be a genius or someone trying to be too smart to judge if the IR operator is capable of delivering the 70/30 business model for their IR. If you think the IR bid is driven by politics, then could you explain why non of the GLCs was awarded the projects? [quote]
urm... Gazelle, can you kindly stop repeating your question again and again?
I already answered you before (and please stop asking for proof and statistics, stop behaving like the govt), that our GLCs, Singapore companies, none of them has ever run such a specific type of huge project and none has ever operated a casino.
So its always a safer bet to bring in experts in this area. -
Originally posted by Gazelle:
Are you talking about me wanting to WIN or about me want to WHINE ? As both do not seem to make any logical sense when followed by ''what you are saying it no jut childish, but full of nonsense''.
If you want to whin, please whin with some logic because what you are saying it no just childish, but full of nonsense.
Slow down with your anxiety to score a jackpot, and speed away like a real Gazelle, as you are not really capable even to be one.
You are certainly brilliant and I have no intention to outshine your efforts.
a) Casino operation in Singaopore is subject to much higher tax as compare to the other non-gaming business such as hotel, MICE, and themepark. IF you are the government looking to pocket more money, wont you prefer 70% of the IR to be gaming business?
I suppose you have some telepathic ability to believe that LV Sands and Genting are dumb enough to take in a smaller share of the 70/30 arrangement in order to recover their $10 BILLION and $5 BILLION respective investments ?
If you are smart enough to believe that they will accept a smaller 30% share, do you not think that one will have to be very concerned as to the methods that they will employ to recover the invested amounts within a short lease period ?
In any case, if the 70% were to be swallowed by the SINGAPORE Inc, how much do you think the larger ordinary Singaporeans will benefit from it, other than those that happened to be linked directly by jobs, and indirectly by trade with the IRs ?
With your unflinching support of the Singapore Government, I suppose you will believe that this Government will reduce GST and income taxxes, lower education fees, lower health costs, increase the budget to charity homes to look after the aged and the infirmed, increase the hopital and medical budget to subsidise the high costs paid by Singaporeans ?
Judging by the track record of this Singapore Government, all you have is a fat hope, and the bulk of the additional income will go into the accounts of GIC and Temasek, as well as to the Private Accounts of the Cabinet Ministers and Civil Servants with more higher pay increases.
Surely, you must have also the information as to which foreign companies are engaged to build these IR facilities at the Marina and on Sentosa ? Unless you are one of the Singaporean and foreign workers employed on site, or one of the few Singapore Companies winning some sub-contracts to participate in the entire work phases - where will the fallout benefit any other Singaporeans not in the loop of the current pace of construction activities ?
b) I am not sure if you are aware that both RWS and LV Sand have recently issue out a few hundred dollar construction projects to Singapore companies? The Singapore construction industry is booming and it is already benefiting people form the industry.
The catalytic effect of the amount of monies will merely generate a short term spike in some general economic rumbling in a localised construction sector; while the banks will be reaping in their interest rates and bank charges for loans and documents issued.
The biggest winner - {if you prefer whinner} - will be your Pet Government sitting back comfortably, while the industries will harvest - on their behalf - the 7% GST on every single transaction that goes on repeatedly.
Do you think the other larger group of ordinary Singaporeans - not involved with the current on-going construction works in both the IRs - will stand to benefit anything ?
Yes, I suppose you wll believe that the entire 4,483,000 residents in Singapore (up to June 2006) will benefit from the employment and construction activities ?
c) RWS and LV Sands has already started the recruitment for managers and they will start a massive recruitment exercise really soon. Doesnt Singaporeans benefits from that?
Do you not know that for every single foreign talent employed, he will very likely bring in two or three more to work with him ?
Singaporeans and PRs will likely be swamped by cheap foreign labor at the lower levels; while qualified Singaporeans will have to compete with qualified foreign talents in an unprotected Singapore employment market that the Singapore Government has refused to regulate for the benefit of Singaporeans.
You seem to get excited with the micro numbers, but do not have the capacity to handle the bigger impact from larger digits, is there some unnatural innate fear to handle those bigger effects from bigger numbers ? -
Originally posted by Gazelle:Walesa, I dont quite understand why are you asking this irrelevent question comparing gaming taxes? I am not sure if you know what are we talking about in the first place.
LV Sand laughing to the bank? you must have forgotten that Marina Sands and RWS are the MOST expensive IRs in the world.
Referring to the above, should your stupidity preclude you from understanding the term "gaming tax", may I enlighten you that the sort of tax you're referring to is effectively called "gaming tax". Hence, if you concur that gaming taxes are actually higher than most other consumer taxes, would it not make sense to suggest a large chunk of money that goes into the fascists' coffers would actually come from the gaming revenue?Originally posted by Gazelle:a) Casino operation in Singaopore is subject to much higher tax as compare to the other non-gaming business such as hotel, MICE, and themepark. IF you are the government looking to pocket more money, wont you prefer 70% of the IR to be gaming business?
Then again, I suppose you'd be almost ignorant to just about everything the fascist propaganda doesn't feed you with. So, once again, using your trusted Wikipedia source, let me show you some misguided drivel you've been fed with that actually convinces you that LV Sands' operations here is the MOST expensive IR in the world.
Referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Resort , LV Sands' development investment in Singapore would work out to an estimated SGD3.85 billion. After factoring in the cost of land, that'd take their total investment to just over SGD5 billion.
Echelon Place (referring to your beloved Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_Place ), alone, would cost USD4 billion to construct and that investment does not cover the cost of land on which the complex will be erected.
You aren't telling me now SGD1=USD1, are you? It's not rocket science to work out USD4 billion actually dwarfs SGD3.85 billion? For the record, Echelon Place isn't even the most expensive casino resort that will ever be constructed - there's something bigger than that in the pipeline at the moment which your fascist press has obviously not inundated you with for fear of realising your innermost fears that they aren't exactly competent enough to be no.1 at everything.
Now, surely, the fascists wouldn't highlight such misguided and less-than-flattering statistics to mislead ignorant folks like you, would they? It is indeed admirable, given your stupidity, to be making an ardent case founded on utopian fantasy... -
Crticising your nonsense doesnt mean that I am supporting the government.Originally posted by Atobe:You are certainly brilliant and I have no intention to outshine your efforts.
I suppose you have some telepathic ability to believe that LV Sands and Genting are dumb enough to take in a smaller share of the 70/30 arrangement in order to recover their $10 BILLION and $5 BILLION respective investments ?
If you are smart enough to believe that they will accept a smaller 30% share, do you not think that one will have to be very concerned as to the methods that they will employ to recover the invested amounts within a short lease period ?
In any case, if the 70% were to be swallowed by the SINGAPORE Inc, how much do you think the larger ordinary Singaporeans will benefit from it, other than those that happened to be linked directly by jobs, and indirectly by trade with the IRs ?
With your unflinching support of the Singapore Government, I suppose you will believe that this Government will reduce GST and income taxxes, lower education fees, lower health costs, increase the budget to charity homes to look after the aged and the infirmed, increase the hopital and medical budget to subsidise the high costs paid by Singaporeans ?
Judging by the track record of this Singapore Government, all you have is a fat hope, and the bulk of the additional income will go into the accounts of GIC and Temasek, as well as to the Private Accounts of the Cabinet Ministers and Civil Servants with more higher pay increases.
Your earlier argument was the Singapore IRs will only benefit Singapore INC.
And I glad to say that I totally disagree with you
a) No GLC is involved in the IR, Genting Int is a listed company here in Singapore and their financial reports are open to investors.
b) How do you explain the MICE business which LV Sands intend to bring into Singapore. Doesnt this bring tourists and foreign income to singapore?
d) What about the unviersal theme park? Doesnt that attract families to Singapore? Do you have reason to believe that the whole family with their children will all end up at the blackjack table gambling away?
""Judging by the track record of this Singapore Government, all you have is a fat hope, and the bulk of the additional income will go into the accounts of GIC and Temasek, as well as to the Private Accounts of the Cabinet Ministers and Civil Servants with more higher pay increases""
what is your definition on INCOME? Is it tax revenue from gaming of from the IR operator? or isit tourist dollars spend within the IR? or isit total tourist dollar spent in the country, as a result of having an IR? -
Originally posted by walesa:
a) I suppose you are not aware that our government target formula for the IR is to have 30% revenue from gaming business. NOT 70%. Hence this contradict the argument that our government's main intention have having the IR is the the casino tax revenue. (IF they do, I am sure they will no limit that to just 30% isnt it?)
Referring to the above, should your stupidity preclude you from understanding the term "gaming tax", may I enlighten you that the sort of tax you're referring to is effectively called "gaming tax". Hence, if you concur that gaming taxes are actually higher than most other consumer taxes, would it not make sense to suggest a large chunk of money that goes into the fascists' coffers would actually come from the gaming revenue?
Then again, I suppose you'd be almost ignorant to just about everything the fascist propaganda doesn't feed you with. So, once again, using your trusted Wikipedia source, let me show you some misguided drivel you've been fed with that actually convinces you that LV Sands' operations here is the [b]MOST expensive IR in the world.
Referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Resort , LV Sands' development investment in Singapore would work out to an estimated SGD3.85 billion. After factoring in the cost of land, that'd take their total investment to just over SGD5 billion.
Echelon Place (referring to your beloved Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_Place ), alone, would cost USD4 billion to construct and that investment does not cover the cost of land on which the complex will be erected.
You aren't telling me now SGD1=USD1, are you? It's not rocket science to work out USD4 billion actually dwarfs SGD3.85 billion? For the record, Echelon Place isn't even the most expensive casino resort that will ever be constructed - there's something bigger than that in the pipeline at the moment which your fascist press has obviously not inundated you with for fear of realising your innermost fears that they aren't exactly competent enough to be no.1 at everything.
Now, surely, the fascists wouldn't highlight such misguided and less-than-flattering statistics to mislead ignorant folks like you, would they? It is indeed admirable, given your stupidity, to be making an ardent case founded on utopian fantasy...[/b]
b) With reference to your quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Resort, may I know why you have choose not to quote a sentence which goes. With the land price and associated capital cost, its total investment will exceed S$5 billion. It would also be one of the most expensive casinos in the world
According http://www.msafdie.com/php/print_project.php?id=92, the total cost for this project is around US$3.6b.
c) If using wikipedia is a good reference, I would like to quote http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marina_Bay_Sands, which say "Las Vegas Sands has committed to invest S$3.85 billion in the project, not including the fixed $1.2 billion cost of the 20.6-hectare site itself, which by most estimates will make it the most expensive casino in the world"
According to another article, the estimate cost of Marina Bay Sands is US$3.85b
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/HE31Ae01.html, and it also mentioned that, "The Marina Bay Sands will get the title of the world's most expensive casino"
d) With reference to your quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_Place, I believe you have overlook that the Echelon Resort only cost US$2.9b, the total of US$4b as quoted by you actually include hotel and retail joint ventures between the Company and key strategic partners.
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=95703&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=800095&highlight=
Now, let me see who is providing misguided information. Another S$ peg to US$ BS my boy? -
1) The no. of Singapore residents is 3.6m, not 4.483m. Please get your facts right.Originally posted by Atobe:Yes, I suppose you wll believe that the entire 4,483,000 residents in Singapore (up to June 2006) will benefit from the employment and construction activities ?
Do you not know that for every single foreign talent employed, he will very likely bring in two or three more to work with him ?
Singaporeans and PRs will likely be swamped by cheap foreign labor at the lower levels; while qualified Singaporeans will have to compete with qualified foreign talents in an unprotected Singapore employment market that the Singapore Government has refused to regulate for the benefit of Singaporeans.
You seem to get excited with the micro numbers, but do not have the capacity to handle the bigger impact from larger digits, is there some unnatural innate fear to handle those bigger effects from bigger numbers ?
2) Of course everbody in Singapore will be able to benefits from the IR projects. If you have a job at the IR, you will spend money outside the IR, and when you spend money outside the IR, you create job outside the IR. And furthermore, IR will also help to attract more tourists to Singapore and they will ofcourse spend more time outside the IR and hence contribute to revenue to other sector of the economy.
3) "Do you not know that for every single foreign talent employed, he will very likely bring in two or three more to work with him"
Please quantify the above statement. If what you say is true, the population of FT in Singapore will multiply by 3 times every year. Can this be true? or you are just speculating again?
4) "Singaporeans and PRs will likely be swamped by cheap foreign labor at the lower levels; while qualified Singaporeans will have to compete with qualified foreign talents in an unprotected Singapore employment market that the Singapore Government has refused to regulate for the benefit of Singaporeans.
You seem to get excited with the micro numbers, but do not have the capacity to handle the bigger impact from larger digits, is there some unnatural innate fear to handle those bigger effects from bigger numbers ?"
a) I am sure you have chosen to ignore the facts that there is a foreign labour quota set by our government to ensure that there is a minimum no. of Singapore workforce within the company.
b) You are giving me that impression that you are either incapable of competing for jobs with FT or you are making assumption that Singaporeans are just as weak as you.
c) You seems to get all excited about speculating and manipulating numbers, is that what you call the ability to see BIG picture? -
I dont think you know exactly what I am talking about and this obviouly shows your limited understanding on the business model of Venetian LV and Singapore IR. For the sake of proofing your lack of knowledge in this subject, I will again explain to you.Originally posted by Atobe:[color=darkred]You are certainly brilliant and I have no intention to outshine your efforts.
I suppose you have some telepathic ability to believe that LV Sands and Genting are dumb enough to take in a smaller share of the 70/30 arrangement in order to recover their $10 BILLION and $5 BILLION respective investments ?
If you are smart enough to believe that they will accept a smaller 30% share, do you not think that one will have to be very concerned as to the methods that they will employ to recover the invested amounts within a short lease period ?
In any case, if the 70% were to be swallowed by the SINGAPORE Inc, how much do you think the larger ordinary Singaporeans will benefit from it, other than those that happened to be linked directly by jobs, and indirectly by trade with the IRs ?
With your unflinching support of the Singapore Government, I suppose you will believe that this Government will reduce GST and income taxxes, lower education fees, lower health costs, increase the budget to charity homes to look after the aged and the infirmed, increase the hopital and medical budget to subsidise the high costs paid by Singaporeans ?
An IR consist of many businesses units, and they include, Hotels, Restaurant, Exhibition Hall, Theater, Retails, and the casino.
What th 70/30 target means is that for every $100 revenue generated by the IR, 70% will have to come from non-gaming businesses. And this will ensure that the IR operator (Sands and Genting) will have to crack their brains to think of other feasible businesses which is inline with our government idea of increasing tourist income and create more jobs for singaporeans.
And Sands has managed to convince that they can help develop the MICE industry, while Genting is able to offer a world class GATED theme park.
Like I said again, criticizing your nonsense is not equal to supporting the government. -
The 70/30 allocation is their way of stupefying the simpletons.
How can any rational free market business allocate these proportions. I suppose if I managed Macdonalds, I can predict the sales for the year will be 70% to Big Mac and 30% to French Fries. Such proportions are only possible with a planned economy.
If the sales for the Integrated Resort for the month end is 70% to F&B and 30% to Gaming. What if a high roller with $50 million (that will tip the balance to 50/50) goes to the Casino, are the operators going to turn him away because it will upset their 70/30 allocation. I suppose the operators are going to turn him away; "Sorry sir, we have managed to balance our allocated 70/30 business requirement. Please come again next month, when we will have sufficient credits for your gaming requirements. "
Sounds so stupid.
Hehehe -
1) Are you talking about residents or citizens? Residents means residing in Singapore, it does not mean citizenship.Originally posted by Gazelle:1) The no. of Singapore residents is 3.6m, not 4.483m. Please get your facts right.
2) Of course everbody in Singapore will be able to benefits from the IR projects. If you have a job at the IR, you will spend money outside the IR, and when you spend money outside the IR, you create job outside the IR. And furthermore, IR will also help to attract more tourists to Singapore and they will ofcourse spend more time outside the IR and hence contribute to revenue to other sector of the economy.
2) That is what you and the govt hope to believe or hope to delude people in to believing. Anybody knows you can't win the banker, simply because he has more funds than you do. The odds are always stacked against the gamer. If you have $10,000, the banker has $1,000,000. You play a game with a minimum of $1,000 per bet; you can bet 10 times and you are out of money; whereas the banker can lose 1,000 times. Ultimately, you will lose all your money.
An Integrated Resort (IR) can ill afford to lose money in the gaming business, else it would close shop very soon. Therefore, if all the workers of Singapore makes say $100,000, they gamble away $50,000, there will be only $50,000 left to spend on food, transport, etc. The $100,000 they spend on food, transport, etc will have trickle down effect, the hawkers that earn the money will have to pay for his HDB, transport, food, etc, so it has a trickle down effect (multiplier depending on his marginal propensity to consume/save). With the loss of $50,000, they will only be left with half the amount of money to spend on the economy.
Whereas in the case of the $50,000 made by the casino, maybe 20-30% is drained away by the government reducing the money supply. The rest of the 80%-70% profits is drained away by foreign investors.
If their sole target is only the tourist, then they should ban all Singaporeans from the IR. That should ensure that the revenue they generate comes purely from foreign sources, instead of giving us the lame argument that Singaporean gamblers will go elsewhere to gamble and we lose the revenue. -
a) Could you explain the meaning of planned economy and free market business?Originally posted by maurizio13:The 70/30 allocation is their way of stupefying the simpletons.
How can any rational free market business allocate these proportions. I suppose if I managed Macdonalds, I can predict the sales for the year will be 70% to Big Mac and 30% to French Fries. Such proportions are only possible with a planned economy.
If the sales for the Integrated Resort for the month end is 70% to F&B and 30% to Gaming. What if a high roller with $50 million (that will tip the balance to 50/50) goes to the Casino, are the operators going to turn him away because it will upset their 70/30 allocation. I suppose the operators are going to turn him away; "Sorry sir, we have managed to balance our allocated 70/30 business requirement. Please come again next month, when we will have sufficient credits for your gaming requirements."
Sounds so stupid.
Hehehe
b) Do you have reason to believe that 1 single high roller with $50m to lose with be able tip the balance of the business model which could generate $700m profit a year?
c) 70.30 is only a seletion criteria, not a rule. But based on governmetn selection, I am pretty sure both LV Sand and RWS are very close to that. -
1) Please dont tell me something that I already know and if you could, please read the previous post before posting.Originally posted by maurizio13:1) Are you talking about residents or citizens? Residents means residing in Singapore, it does not mean citizenship.
2) That is what you and the govt hope to believe or hope to delude people in to believing. Anybody knows you can't win the banker, simply because he has more funds than you do. The odds are always stacked against the gamer. If you have $10,000, the banker has $1,000,000. You play a game with a minimum of $1,000 per bet; you can bet 10 times and you are out of money; whereas the banker can lose 1,000 times. Ultimately, you will lose all your money.
An Integrated Resort (IR) can ill afford to lose money in the gaming business, else it would close shop very soon. Therefore, if all the workers of Singapore makes say $100,000, they gamble away $50,000, there will be only $50,000 left to spend on food, transport, etc. The $100,000 they spend on food, transport, etc will have trickle down effect, the hawkers that earn the money will have to pay for his HDB, transport, food, etc, so it has a trickle down effect (multiplier depending on his marginal propensity to consume/save). With the loss of $50,000, they will only be left with half the amount of money to spend on the economy.
Whereas in the case of the $50,000 made by the casino, maybe 20-30% is drained away by the government reducing the money supply. The rest of the 80%-70% profits is drained away by foreign investors.
If their sole target is only the tourist, then they should ban all Singaporeans from the IR. That should ensure that the revenue they generate comes purely from foreign sources, instead of giving us the lame argument that Singaporean gamblers will go elsewhere to gamble and we lose the revenue.
2) You are making certain assumptions which i find it hard to believe.
a) All tourist that comes to singapore will spend their entire trip in the casino gambling.
b) All employee working at the IR will be gamblers.
c) You are the only few smarts one in Singapore that knows banker will always win. -
a) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_economyOriginally posted by Gazelle:a) Could you explain the meaning of planned economy and free market business?
b) Do you have reason to believe that 1 single high roller with $50m to lose with be able tip the balance of the business model which could generate $700m profit a year?
c) 70.30 is only a seletion criteria, not a rule. But based on governmetn selection, I am pretty sure both LV Sand and RWS are very close to that.
b) You have missed the forest for the trees. Please read and understand. With any business you can never forecast that you will sell a certain percentage of product mix with absolute certainty.
c) If it's not enforced, why bother having it? Wayang? To make people believe that their business is 70% entertainment and 30% gaming. There is a difference between entertainment and gaming; in entertainment, you can only eat this much, even if you can eat 3 main courses, you can only play with the IR facilities for a fixed number of hours, your spending is curtailed; whereas for gaming, can you say you will only lose $10,000 today and leave? Gaming has no bounds, if you lose your cool and control, there is a possibility that you will lose all your entire fortune in 1 roll of the die. -
a) For any major investment, you will need to make sales forecast, P/L and Cash flow projection at least 3 to 4 years ahead, before the director of the companies can sign the dotted line to approval such huge investment. I am not sure which school of thought have teach you that you can never make forecast in businessOriginally posted by maurizio13:a) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_economy
b) You have missed the forest for the trees. Please read and understand. With any business you can never forecast that you will sell a certain percentage of product mix with absolute certainty.
c) If it's not enforced, why bother having it? Wayang? To make people believe that their business is 70% entertainment and 30% gaming. There is a difference between entertainment and gaming; in entertainment, you can only eat this much, even if you can eat 3 main courses, you can only play with the IR facilities for a fixed number of hours, your spending is curtailed; whereas for gaming, can you say you will only lose $10,000 today and leave? Gaming has no bounds, if you lose your cool and control, there is a possibility that you will lose all your entire fortune in 1 roll of the die.
b) This is not about wayang, this is to encourage the bidders to do their homework and come out with the best possible proposal for singapore IRs along the line of 70/30 rules. If they dont have such criteria in mind, do you think the IR bidders will submit such a big and comprehensive proposals?
c) I am not sure what makes you think that it is 70% entertainment and 30% gaming? Like I mentioned before 70% can consist of MICE activities, F&B, Hotels, Spa, Concert Hall, Theme Park etc. Plus why is entertainment = eating?
And btw, what is a free market business? -
Originally posted by Gazelle:
No, the SGD was never pegged to any currency bar the Ruppiah. In fact, the SGD can print its own currency at will too.
a) I suppose you are not aware that our government target formula for the IR is to have 30% revenue from gaming business. NOT 70%. Hence this contradict the argument that our government's main intention have having the IR is the the casino tax revenue. (IF they do, I am sure they will no limit that to just 30% isnt it?)
b) With reference to your quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Resort, may I know why you have choose not to quote a sentence which goes. [b]With the land price and associated capital cost, its total investment will exceed S$5 billion. It would also be one of the most expensive casinos in the world
According http://www.msafdie.com/php/print_project.php?id=92, the total cost for this project is around US$3.6b.
c) If using wikipedia is a good reference, I would like to quote http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marina_Bay_Sands, which say "Las Vegas Sands has committed to invest S$3.85 billion in the project, not including the fixed $1.2 billion cost of the 20.6-hectare site itself, which by most estimates will make it the most expensive casino in the world"
According to another article, the estimate cost of Marina Bay Sands is US$3.85b
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/HE31Ae01.html, and it also mentioned that, "The Marina Bay Sands will get the title of the world's most expensive casino"
d) With reference to your quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_Place, I believe you have overlook that the Echelon Resort only cost US$2.9b, the total of US$4b as quoted by you actually include hotel and retail joint ventures between the Company and key strategic partners.
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=95703&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=800095&highlight=
Now, let me see who is providing misguided information. Another S$ peg to US$ BS my boy?
[/b]
Your foolish analysis indeed portrays the level of stupidity requiring equally ridiculous comparisons to illustrate the nonsensical nature of your drivel.
a) I suppose you're so daft that you can't comprehend simple English? I could target to make USD 1 trillion in this lifetime and become the world's richest man in the process, but is that quantifiable in definite terms? Suppose your intellect does not permit you to understand that simple analogy, let me rephrase it in the context of your argument then. Regardless of what the fascists target, are you telling me if 60% of Sands' income comes from gaming revenues, the gaming taxes wouldn't apply to them (ie.only 30% of this 60% will be subjected to gaming tax)? So are you so downright gullible to believe the government's projection will actually be so accurate (or it'd actually be adopted so strictly by Sands) that they ensure their revenue strictly follows a 30-70 breakdown?
b & c) I see your stupidity knows no bounds. So you've decided to jettison your pet Wikipedia now that it doesn't benefit your argument? Alright, why not refer to an agency of your fascist mouthpiece for credibility then? Specifically, read "Successful RFP Process" and see if the amount touted is in SGD or USD (oops, I forgot you could have factored in that by the time the IR's are ready, the USD, through printing its currency at its own free will, could have depreciated so much that USD100 = SGD1 - in which case, your flawed argument would certainly hold). And may I remind lest you suffer from selective amnesia, your emboldened claim earlier was that the two IR's in Singapore would be the most expensive in the world. With the imminent construction of Echelon Place (which must have been no more familiar to you than life on Mercury), LV Sands' Marina Bay IR is now just one of the most expensive, huh? What wavering conviction you have in your beloved fascists!
d) I'm sure Marina Bay will get the title of "The most expensive casino in the world" - if the rankings were meted out by you and believed by even more gullible compatriots of yours, why not? I'm not sure the rest of the world will come anywhere close to being convinced by people suffering from selective amnesia though. -
You've got to remember you're dealing with someone who believes everything his fascist mouthpieces churn out? Mind, here's someone who believes countries can print currencies at will - going by his logic, I'm equally inclined to believe the SGD was first pegged to the USD (which, in turn, is pegged to gold) and now, the Ruppiah...Originally posted by maurizio13:Sounds so stupid.
Hehehe
-
You could target to become anyone you like, however you will also need someone to believe what you say. Unfortunately, I think the best creature that you can sell your $1 trillion joke to is probably your dog, if you are capable of having one.Originally posted by walesa:No, the SGD was [b]never pegged to any currency bar the Ruppiah. In fact, the SGD can print its own currency at will too. Your foolish analysis indeed portrays the level of stupidity requiring equally ridiculous comparisons to illustrate the nonsensical nature of your drivel.[/b][/quote]
Like I mentioned before you can print as much SGD as you like, as long there is a demand for it. There is no point trying to say someone is stupid just because that someone is able to expose you limited understand of the currency market.
Let me recap. In one of your earlier post mentioned that that S$ is peg to US$. But the reality is the S$ has appreciated so much againt the US$.
Secondly, you have mentioned that US$ is Peg to gold, however in reality is the value and demand of gold and US$ doesnt move up and down in tandem.Originally posted by walesa:
a) I suppose you're so daft that you can't comprehend simple English? I could target to make USD 1 trillion in this lifetime and become the world's richest man in the process, but is that quantifiable in definite terms? Suppose your intellect does not permit you to understand that simple analogy, let me rephrase it in the context of your argument then. Regardless of what the fascists target, are you telling me if 60% of Sands' income comes from gaming revenues, the gaming taxes wouldn't apply to them (ie.only 30% of this 60% will be subjected to gaming tax)? So are you so downright gullible to believe the government's projection will actually be so accurate (or it'd actually be adopted so strictly by Sands) that they ensure their revenue strictly follows a 30-70 breakdown?
Like I said before and I will said it again for the sake of people with low IQ and trying to act smart. If the government intention for the IR is to go after the gaming tax revenue, our government would not have limited the casino area to only 3-5% of the overall IR floor space and also using Venetian LV business model as a selection criteria. Hence what you are saying above are nothing but a bunch of BS which nobody is interested in reading.
[quote]Originally posted by walesa:
b & c) I see your stupidity knows no bounds. So you've decided to jettison your pet Wikipedia now that it doesn't benefit your argument? Alright, why not refer to an agency of your fascist mouthpiece for credibility then? Specifically, read "Successful RFP Process" and see if the amount touted is in SGD or USD (oops, I forgot you could have factored in that by the time the IR's are ready, the USD, through printing its currency at its own free will, could have depreciated so much that USD100 = SGD1 - in which case, your flawed argument would certainly hold). And may I remind lest you suffer from selective amnesia, your emboldened claim earlier was that the two IR's in Singapore would be the most expensive in the world. With the imminent construction of Echelon Place (which must have been no more familiar to you than life on Mercury), LV Sands' Marina Bay IR is now just one of the most expensive, huh? What wavering conviction you have in your beloved fascists!
[/b]Again you are showing your inability to understand what you have read. The S$3.85b mentioned in the STB website is only consist of DEVELOPMENT investment, and that does not include the S$1.2b which LV Sands has to pay for the plot of land.
Please stop that US$100 = S$1, I really dont know what the hell you talking about.Originally posted by walesa:
What I am quoting is not what I believe, but fact and information provide by gaming analyist from all over the world. Just because you think you are smart, that doesnt necessary has to be true.
d) I'm sure Marina Bay will get the title of "The most expensive casino in the world" - if the rankings were meted out by you and believed by even more gullible compatriots of yours, why not? I'm not sure the rest of the world will come anywhere close to being convinced by people suffering from selective amnesia though.[/b] -
The reality is, I'm telling you now the SGD was once pegged to the USD and is currently pegged to the Ruppiah. That logic made every bit as much sense and was certainly a worthy response to your drivel that "the US is the only country in the world that can print the USD" and that they could do so at will. ( Go over your drivel again and see whether I said anything about the SGD being pegged to the USD before your claim that the "US can print as much as they like" ). All that before I'm reminded of the fact that here's someone trying to define what constitutes an Ivy League institution when you're obviously totally clueless. The reality is that sort of logic, for all its practical fallacies to most sane mind, would still flatter your warped and deposable intellect. Oh, and do feel free to harp on the fact that I now actually tell you that the SGD is pegged to the ruppiah...Originally posted by Gazelle:Like I mentioned before you can print as much SGD as you like, as long there is a demand for it. There is no point trying to say someone is stupid just because that someone is able to expose you limited understand of the currency market.
Let me recap. In one of your earlier post mentioned that that S$ is peg to US$. But the reality is the S$ has appreciated so much againt the US$.
Secondly, you have mentioned that US$ is Peg to gold, however in reality is the value and demand of gold and US$ doesnt move up and down in tandem.
For someone whose IQ barely exceeds that of a dog's (and I might even be insulting a dog's intellect in the process), it's obviously not all that surprising and mind-boggling that you can't comprehend the picture.Originally posted by Gazelle:You could target to become anyone you like, however you will also need someone to believe what you say. Unfortunately, I think the best creature that you can sell your $1 trillion joke to is probably your dog, if you are capable of having one.
Like I said before and I will said it again for the sake of people with low IQ and trying to act smart. If the government intention for the IR is to go after the gaming tax revenue, our government would not have limited the casino area to only 3-5% of the overall IR floor space and also using Venetian LV business model as a selection criteria. Hence what you are saying above are nothing but a bunch of BS which nobody is interested in reading.
For anyone to believe LV Sands could have a strictly-demarcated 30-70 distribution for the IR's operations revenue is mind-boggling, really. Barring ignorant pets whose survival depends on the daily dosage of fascist propaganda, it'd be hard to imagine anyone would actually find your argument remotely coherent. Let's take your silly argument at face value and analyse on that basis : so you're effectively suggesting restricting the size of the casino to 3%-5% the size of the entire IR, that would actually constitute an effective way to ensure the IR's don't make more than 30% of its revenues from gaming avenues?
Have you ever set foot in a casino(and I literally mean a modern, state-of-the-art casino which has a complex of its own; not your own underground gambling den)? Have you any idea how many gaming tables are there in these casinos and how much revenue these tables generate? It's not rocket science for anyone who has set foot in such casinos to know the area of a casino hardly provides a viable reflection of how much gaming revenue the casino generates, in respect to the size of its non-gaming complex as a whole. For all the grand ideology your propaganda machine has fed you with, obviously the precedences set out by casinos in Macau, Las Vegas and Monaco will do little to boost your ailing case. Macau's gaming industry alone was worth USD3.4billion alone in 2003 - for your warped theory to hold true, I suppose we're supposed to believe LV Sands will be capable of generating some USD7.9billion on its own from its non-gaming revenues? (Should you fail to convince any sane folks, you can try selling that notion to your dog though...)
Evidently, if an ignorant mug like you should genuinely believe the gaming revenues of a casino could be curtailed based on the size on which the casino operates, you ought to get your head checked.
Hey muppet, let's give you the benefit of the doubt now and let's factor in the S$1.2billion land and capital cost for LV Sands' Marina Bay project. That takes us to a figure slightly in excess of SGD5billion.Originally posted by Gazelle:Again you are showing your inability to understand what you have read. The S$3.85b mentioned in the STB website is only consist of DEVELOPMENT investment, and that does not include the S$1.2b which LV Sands has to pay for the plot of land.
Please stop that US$100 = S$1, I really dont know what the hell you talking about.
Are you still going to tell me the two IR's in Singapore will remain the most expensive casino resorts in the world, despite being confronted with the fact that Boyd Gaming Corp is building Echelon Place at a cost of USD4 billion? Are you trying to tell me USD4 billion is less than SGD5.05billion?
You may very well be right should the USD depreciate sharply against the SGD (maybe there'll come a day in your wildest dreams when USD100=SGD1?) - if that doesn't materialise, you can stick to selling this notion to your dog.
What I'm certain of is our intellect belong to two totally different planes - I think, if anything, it's more a case of you being excessively stupid than me being excessively intelligent.Originally posted by Gazelle:What I am quoting is not what I believe, but fact and information provide by gaming analyist from all over the world. Just because you think you are smart, that doesnt necessary has to be true.
You would do well to stick to calculating exchange rates (and maybe find another way to convince any sound-minded folks of how SGD5.05 billion > USD4 billion) and harp on the fact that I'm telling you - yes, exclusive to you - the SGD is not just pegged to the USD, but also to the ruppiah. You've enough trouble handling basic arithmetic, nevermind the economics... -
Originally posted by walesa:
Like I mentioned to you before and I will do it again since you have demostrated to be someone with pretty low IQ.
[b]
Hey muppet, let's give you the benefit of the doubt now and let's factor in the S$1.2billion land and capital cost for LV Sands' Marina Bay project. That takes us to a figure slightly in excess of SGD5billion.
Are you still going to tell me the two IR's in Singapore will remain the most expensive casino resorts in the world, despite being confronted with the fact that Stardust is building Echelon Place at a cost of USD4 billion? Are you trying to tell me USD4 billion is less than SGD5.05billion?
You may very well be right should the USD depreciate sharply against the SGD (maybe there'll come a day in your wildest dreams when USD100=SGD1?) - if that doesn't materialise, you can stick to selling this notion to your dog.
[b]
Echelon Place cost US$4b, but it is not an integrated resort, it is a piece of land purchase by the company to develop Echelon Resort which cost only US$2.7b. A balance US$1.3b is make up of other 50/50 JV business with hotel operators.
Marina Bay Sands is wholly owned subsidiary of LV Sands and they paid US$3.6-3.8b to purchase the land and develop the IR.
See the difference my boy? -
Originally posted by walesa:
OK I learn something new again, S$ is pegged to Ruppiah, which is one of the most volatile currency in recent time
[b]
The reality is, I'm telling you now the SGD was once pegged to the USD and is currently pegged to the Ruppiah. That logic made every bit as much sense and was certainly a worthy response to your drivel that "the US is the only country in the world that can print the USD" and that they could do so at will. ( Go over your drivel again and see whether I said anything about the SGD being pegged to the USD before your claim that the "US can print as much as they like" ). All that before I'm reminded of the fact that here's someone trying to define what constitutes an Ivy League institution when you're obviously totally clueless. The reality is that sort of logic, for all its practical fallacies to most sane mind, would still flatter your warped and deposable intellect. Oh, and do feel free to harp on the fact that I now actually tell you that the SGD is pegged to the ruppiah... [b]