Will USA foreign policy lead to Islamic Indonesia?
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Afghanistan under the soviets was modern.
But the US supported the Islamic resistance. Soon the soviet supported govt collapsed and the Islamic Taliban took over.
This is what they destroyed. Kabul University in the 1980s – majority of
students were women.
Afghanistan today :
The US kicked the Taliban out, but the country remained in the middle ages.
Unintended result of US foreign policy ........ I hope the US would not mess around in South East Asia, especially Indonesia, which can go the way of Afghanistan, Taliban and all
......thank you very much, but no thanks, USA. -
as far as Jakarta not too cosy with Teheran things will be fine.
situaton in I-raq and I-ran sanction do has its ripples in the Muslim world including Indonesia and Malaysia next door. -
Afghanistan under the soviets was modern.Originally posted by Dr Who:Afghanistan under the soviets was modern.
But the US supported the Islamic resistance. Soon the soviet supported govt collapsed and the Islamic Taliban took over.
This is what they destroyed. Kabul University in the 1980s – majority of
students were women.
Afghanistan today :
The US kicked the Taliban out, but the country remained in the middle ages.
Unintended result of US foreign policy ........ I hope the US would not mess around in South East Asia, especially Indonesia, which can go the way of Afghanistan, Taliban and all
......thank you very much, but no thanks, USA.
[b]
You sure about this! should have let the soviet stay on.
i think you over simplify
The US went into Afghanistan because of 911. Not because Taliban was there but Taliban refuse to handover Osama.
The afghan are the ones that continue to practice their fate, it take generation to educate and hopfully evolved although I doubt so. Even without the involvement of uncle sam's military, countries can still drive towards extremist. through influence of other social norms . -
I think what Dr Who's trying to do is to draw a comparison. Showing that a thriving modern country like Afghanistan under Soviet administration has the capacity in a decade to be transformed into a state under a fundamentalist regime.
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but....the difference is....
Indonesia is not Afganistan....
the Islamic world is big.....many forms and variations.....like other major religions....
the form of Islam in South-East Asia....is different with Middle-East....
there is cultural adaptation and variety....or whatever it is called......
so.....I believe it is impossible for any South-East Asian country....to go the way of Taliban-style Afganistan...
Because.......Indonesians are not Afghans....
Malaysians.....are not Saudis......
And so on....
It is impossible.....
Although there are some minorities who want to adopt Middle-East style....or Wahabism or whatever its called.....they are a minority....
Who has the power.....in cities...in businesses......in schools....in government.....in media.......in military.....every sector u can think of.....
It is the so called secular 'moderates'....
While the so called 'fundamentalists'.....they are in rural areas.....not holding any power.....not holding any influence.....in small number....
How can these group of people.....throw the bigger majority and the ones holding the mainstream influential positions.....?? How can they....become a major social force.....change everybody else... Not possible I dont think.....
I believe there is a natural order in this world also.....those who deal with worldly issues....become so called moderates.......and those who study religions more......become so called fundamentalists......as a result of their time and attention spent........they also hold different positions in society as a result......
Its impossible for a businessman to be a fundamentalist......or a military officer to be a fundamentalist......and so on....because of different area of thinking.......the ones who 'run' our world in this 21st century....are those administrators....as a result always those people who are busy running our daily world, will be moderates....coz they everyday deal with wordly issues......and therefore, always moderates will have upperhand.....
Meat Pao. -
I think Indonesia will go the way of Turkey.
There are sensible people in Indonesia. -
actions (or inaction during the last Israelis-Lebanon conflict ) by US have brought the Muslim nations closer.Originally posted by Meat Pao:but....the difference is....
Indonesia is not Afganistan....
the Islamic world is big.....many forms and variations.....like other major religions....
the form of Islam in South-East Asia....is different with Middle-East....
there is cultural adaptation and variety....or whatever it is called......
so.....I believe it is impossible for any South-East Asian country....to go the way of Taliban-style Afganistan...
Because.......Indonesians are not Afghans....
Malaysians.....are not Saudis......
And so on....
It is impossible.....
Although there are some minorities who want to adopt Middle-East style....or Wahabism or whatever its called.....they are a minority....
Who has the power.....in cities...in businesses......in schools....in government.....in media.......in military.....every sector u can think of.....
It is the so called secular 'moderates'....
While the so called 'fundamentalists'.....they are in rural areas.....not holding any power.....not holding any influence.....in small number....
How can these group of people.....throw the bigger majority and the ones holding the mainstream influential positions.....?? How can they....become a major social force.....change everybody else... Not possible I dont think.....
I believe there is a natural order in this world also.....those who deal with worldly issues....become so called moderates.......and those who study religions more......become so called fundamentalists......as a result of their time and attention spent........they also hold different positions in society as a result......
Its impossible for a businessman to be a fundamentalist......or a military officer to be a fundamentalist......and so on....because of different area of thinking.......the ones who 'run' our world in this 21st century....are those administrators....as a result always those people who are busy running our daily world, will be moderates....coz they everyday deal with wordly issues......and therefore, always moderates will have upperhand.....
Meat Pao.
The Organisation of Islamic Conference which host 57 nations from the Muslim world discuss issues like how it might send peacekeeping troops to Muslim nations,[4] and the possibility of a change in the name of the body as well as its charter.[5] Additionally, return of the sovereignty right to the Iraqi people along with withdrawal of foreign troops from Iraq is another main issues on the agenda. -
Iraq issue......not only Muslim countries object.......most of the world also object what.......
Just to add-on abit.....
Something else about South-East Asia.......the countries here...the social compositions are not homogenous.....
For instance.......Afganistan....its possible to go Islamic 100%, because the population is close to 100% muslims correct....?
But let's say Indonesia.......what about the Balinese Hindus...? The eastern and some western Indonesia's Christians...? What about the Chinese....?
Malaysia also the same......What about the Chinese....and Indians....?
Brunei also same.....
I think this is one very important factor.........its different with Middle-East I believe........the society here is different......here there are more different religions and ethnic groups....so what happens is.....the daily running....is more or less try to be 'middle ground' or 'common ground'......so everybody is accommodated.....
So i think.....when people talk about 'social force'.....about how Afganistan can go Taliban way.....I agree government intervention or foreign intervention is only one factor.......not everything.....another factor is Afganistan has the social potential itself for it.....but I dont think any South-East Asian countries has the social potential....
Meat Pao. -
Is it ironical that the proverbial truth always prevail in that 'what comes around, will go around' ?Originally posted by Dr Who:Afghanistan under the soviets was modern.
But the US supported the Islamic resistance. Soon the soviet supported govt collapsed and the Islamic Taliban took over.
From Wikipedia - the Soviets were helping the Afghans to resist British Colonial Rule since 1924, and after the British withdrew from Afghanistan, the Soviets continued to support Afghan nationalists in the Afghan internal conflicts that resulted in civil wars of rival factions.
The entry of Soviet Russia into Afghanistan could hardly be seen as aid, and amounted to an invasion, similar to the entry of USA into South Vietnam to prop up an unpopular South Vietnamese Government.
The irony is almost complete in that the Soviets who were aiding the Afghan naitonalists to combat the British Colonial Government, soon found themselves to be an occupation force supporting a failing and unpopular Afghan government.
The Americans and the British helped Afghan nationalists to combat the Soviets; and little effort was given to understand the main players or actors in the entire political structure.
With the Soviet and their Afghan ally fighting a war on many and different fronts, can such a pristine place of learning exist in Afghanistan - as shown in the photos; or are these mere propaganda ?
This is what they destroyed. Kabul University in the 1980s – majority of
students were women.
Afghanistan today :
The US kicked the Taliban out, but the country remained in the middle ages.
Unintended result of US foreign policy ........ I hope the US would not mess around in South East Asia, especially Indonesia, which can go the way of Afghanistan, Taliban and all
......thank you very much, but no thanks, USA.
As the war was raging in Afghanistan, the US was helping the Afghan nationalists to combat the Soviets and their Afghan Ally, in the same way that the Soviets have aided the North Vietnamese and the Vietcongs to fight the US Military in South Vietnam.
Now that the Talibans have been evicted out of Afghanistan, it is critical that the root causes of the Taliban rise to popularity should be addressed, while continuing to suppress the Talibans and its Al Qaeda support.
This task is left to a newly elected National Government led by Prez Kazai.
Can Indonesia or South-east Asia exist without the involvement or contribution from the USA ?
Even with Singapore's wealth, Singapore still need to depend on the USA for its huge market size, its civil and military technologies, and the US presence in South-east Asia to ensure that the sea lanes are kept open.