If Singapore is to go to war...
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ren bu wei ji .. tian zhu di mie.Originally posted by sgdiehard:It is outrages and completely out of context to compare Lim Bo Seng, whose patriotism and sacrifice are remembered for generations, with the like of soul_rage whose intention was solely to run away from a war, deserting his country and fellow citizens, for his own safety.
Hey .. this is a chinese maxim right? Did you chinese teacher teach you that?
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
For Force 136 and the 1st Malayan Regiment, whether they fled or they stay, they maintain their course. They save their lives for better use, but for the same course. Lim Bo Seng left and return to Malaysia, to fight the same enemy, he didn't run for his own safety, to come back only when there is peace in Malaya and Singapore.
No need to write so much and presume I dunno the history.
I was just reiterating the point by soul_rage (though he might meant it in another way) - [b]I also don't see patriotism as EQUALS to stay and fight. I think that is a very shallow and narrow way of viewing patriotism.
We can see this in the example of Force 136 and the 1st Malayan Regiment. One fled. One stayed.
Both are heroes deserving our respect.
So in the scenario of Singapore facing her first war, do you presume those who run away are cowards?[/b]
The "fleeing" intended by soul_rage is clear, they are deserting, there is no intention to come back and fight, singapore is just a piece of land.
Glad you know some history, sad you do not learn the right lessons.
So in the scenario of Singapore facing her first war, if you leave Singapore, to solicit international support for Singapore, support of any kind, political, PR or financial, source for war materials, help settle young children and women who manage to escape before the war started, and when there is a need, you are prepared to come back, then you are definitely not a coward, you are worthy of high respect, not only as a patriotic citizen, but a gentleman with noble character and profound moral integrity.
(This applies to all countries, Sun Yet Sen left China many times when China was in turmoil, but he didn't leave just to stay alive.)
If you leave Singapore, with whatever you can salvage, to another country, to avoid the war. And will come back if Singapore win the war, or stay and apply for foreign citizenship under "refugee", I can understand and accept this if you are over 50s, or physically handicapped, retarded,.....Mindef don't want you, your neighbour don't need you.
but if you are a young able man, trained and liable for reservists, regardless whether you are a clerk or commando, in SAF, or Civil Defence, or even just consider yourself useful to help in your community or neighborhood as volunteers, but you pack and go with whatever you have and in whatever way you can, ignoring all recalls through the media, surely you don't expect us to believe you are just going on a vacation.
The definition of Coward is "a person who lacks courage, esp. one who is shamefully unable to control fear and so shrinks from danger or trouble." Wouldn't you think this is the right definition to describe those who run away with tails in between their legs? Do I presume they are cowards? no, I don't presume, I say they are. 
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don't just learn from your chinese teachers, they only teach you to pass exam. Learn by reading more, you will learn how to be a man, a gentleman.Originally posted by Icemoon:ren bu wei ji .. tian zhu di mie.
Hey .. this is a chinese maxim right? Did you chinese teacher teach you that?
there are many chinese maxims, some are used only to describe certain behaviors. "Ren bu weiji, tian zhu di mie" is to describe man are selfish, it is not words of encouragement! your teacher taught you that?
These are what you should know,
si you qing ru hong mao, zhong ru tai shan.
guo jia xing wang, pi fu you ze.
jia pin zhi xiao zi, guo luan shi zhong chen. -
But we can learn from our cold hard calculating leaders. If there is no economic benefits in doing it, why bother?Originally posted by sgdiehard:don't just learn from your chinese teachers, they only teach you to pass exam. Learn by reading more, you will learn how to be a man, a gentleman.
.
One foreigner approached for advice on coming to Singapore. I told him to only take up PR because he would have most of the benefits of a citizen without the responsibilities and also the option to return to his own country. From a benefits perspective, its not really advisable to take up Singapore Citizenship unless he plans to migrate to countries like US or Canada, as its easier to get approval with a Singapore citizenship.
As much as the people who like to trumpet the virtues of loyalty, there are the facts that the way PAP implements polices are going to change the way citizens feels about their commitment to Singapore.
Try not to get too sentimental about abstract things like Loyalty, Civic consciousness. These things have little economic value. Instead invest some money in the stock market or property to reap benefits. But if there is a war, dont count too hard for people defend the country. You cant take stocks or properties into the grave.... -
The topic is " if Singapore is to go to war...". Do whatever you like during peace time, go wherever you want, and it is only during peace time can you make money and have your choice in how you want to spend. When war comes, it is a different consideration already.Originally posted by kilua:But we can learn from our cold hard calculating leaders. If there is no economic benefits in doing it, why bother?
One foreigner approached for advice on coming to Singapore. I told him to only take up PR because he would have most of the benefits of a citizen without the responsibilities and also the option to return to his own country. From a benefits perspective, its not really advisable to take up Singapore Citizenship unless he plans to migrate to countries like US or Canada, as its easier to get approval with a Singapore citizenship.
As much as the people who like to trumpet the virtues of loyalty, there are the facts that the way PAP implements polices are going to change the way citizens feels about their commitment to Singapore.
Try not to get too sentimental about abstract things like Loyalty, Civic consciousness. These things have little economic value. Instead invest some money in the stock market or property to reap benefits. But if there is a war, dont count too hard for people defend the country. You cant take stocks or properties into the grave....
It is because you can't take stocks or properties or houses into the grave, that we should be looking for things that may not have economic values. Is our relationship with our spouses, siblings, parents linked with economic values and love is something too sentimental? When the market is good, every tom dick and harry, ah ma ah so all make money thinking they know how to play with stock and shares. But when the market crashed, people lose bungalows, apartments.... then they will realise what love means when their wives stay around with them to suffer the economic hardship. In the absence of money and wealth, it is abstract things like friendships, love,..that prevail.
We don't live our life as stipulated by the government. My parents had 3 children and the government punished them by giving my youngest brother no priority for school, but my father is always proud that he decided what he wanted for his family, not the government. We did not grow up with everything, but we are happy knowing there is love among us. Today, the government gives incentives for us to have more children, how do you decide? to me, go to hell with your incentive, me and my wife decide.
I wasn't born in singapore, but i grow up here with full local education, but my upbringing is more than just school and the government. My family education as an ethnic chinese, my moral values from my religion are the two other factors in making the present me. The values of these two education far far outweigh the values given by my education, from K1 to graduation in local U, in Singapore. don't learn too much from the pap, you will not need to blame them. -
Why so fierce?Originally posted by sgdiehard:It is outrages and completely out of context to compare Lim Bo Seng, whose patriotism and sacrifice are remembered for generations, with the like of soul_rage whose intention was solely to run away from a war, deserting his country and fellow citizens, for his own safety.
Force 136 is a secret organisation established by the British war cabinet to fight behind enemy lines and their area of operations included the whole Far East. If any members were to leave Singapore, they would be heading for another area for the same bloody war, facing the same risk of death.
to those who don't know, you tarnish the reputation of Lim Bo Seng and Force 136, but to those who know, you only show your stupidity and ignorance.
S h i t, no wonder the PAP only want to teach the people the history of Singapore, even this, many obviously failed. 
No lah, Am sure IceMoon wasn't mean to do such a comparison. I wouldn't dare to compare myself with Lim Bo Seng as well, since he is a true patriot. And kudos to you for remembering him. All that is left to remember of him is a piece of stone in Macritchie and some words in history books.
But as I mentioned to you before, WWII is an extraordinary event, where there is almost no place for asians to go, but to stay and fight. So sometimes, I don't see all these necessarily as patriotism, but rather a necessity in order to ensure the chance of survival.
Change this to a modern-day war event, where everywhere else, all are prospering, and only Singapore is facing war, and then think about it again. Chances are, many people will run, given the fact that they do not need to face death, and can go somewhere else to have a better life. -
as I summarized for our dear diehard, to me, he is just idealisticOriginally posted by kilua:But we can learn from our cold hard calculating leaders. If there is no economic benefits in doing it, why bother?
One foreigner approached for advice on coming to Singapore. I told him to only take up PR because he would have most of the benefits of a citizen without the responsibilities and also the option to return to his own country. From a benefits perspective, its not really advisable to take up Singapore Citizenship unless he plans to migrate to countries like US or Canada, as its easier to get approval with a Singapore citizenship.
As much as the people who like to trumpet the virtues of loyalty, there are the facts that the way PAP implements polices are going to change the way citizens feels about their commitment to Singapore.
Try not to get too sentimental about abstract things like Loyalty, Civic consciousness. These things have little economic value. Instead invest some money in the stock market or property to reap benefits. But if there is a war, dont count too hard for people defend the country. You cant take stocks or properties into the grave....
Our govt doesn't value people who are willing to die for the country. Our govt values money and wealth and people whom are able to generate millions for the country.
I give you an analogy. I was once in an organization, where the people were like a family, and everyone was willing to sacrifice his time or work OT, over weekends to ensure that the organization was prospering.
Then... retrenchment came, and the retrenchment was made when the company was reporting excellent profits still.
And what happened to the 'family'? It was all gone, coz from that point onwards, the staff all know that the company doesn't care for them, and there is no worth in sacrificing their own time for the company to help the company to prosper. To the company, its those whom make millions for them (ie those at the top, whom are also those who proposed the cut in workforce to increase their profits), that they value.
Naturally, everyone started taking the individualistic stance. If you do not plan for yourself, and ensure your life is lived well, don't expect anyone to help you. If you don't plan escape routes on your own, don't expect anyone to help you when an emergency occurs. You will just die in the situation and no one cares.
Probably, just shed a few crocodile tears *shrugs* -
ah... so now you are quoting what LKY said in the english equivalent.Originally posted by sgdiehard:si you qing ru hong mao, zhong ru tai shan.
guo jia xing wang, pi fu you ze.
jia pin zhi xiao zi, guo luan shi zhong chen.
"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"
That is mindless propanganda, and is used to control minds to die for them.
Just look at China military. They are so well controlled by the govt that they can even shoot and kill students (their own people) during Tian An Men
So let me ask you
in a situation, where the country political and economic stability is at risk, due to internal protest movements, will you do what the govt ask you to do, to kill your own fellow countrymen, coz its necessary to save the country?
In this situation, You are being patriotic if you kill your own fellow countrymen, and being a coward if you refuse to act according to the govt instructions.
In fact, I think your definition of "going to war" is also very narrow. It could very well be an internal war contained with Singapore. -
I am glad that you have found friends and family members that support you in times of needs. In reality, friendship and love does not always prevail. There are many cases that are the opposite... the wife leaves the husband after a failed business, friends disappearing in times of needs...Originally posted by sgdiehard:The topic is " if Singapore is to go to war...". Do whatever you like during peace time, go wherever you want, and it is only during peace time can you make money and have your choice in how you want to spend. When war comes, it is a different consideration already.
It is because you can't take stocks or properties or houses into the grave, that we should be looking for things that may not have economic values. Is our relationship with our spouses, siblings, parents linked with economic values and love is something too sentimental? When the market is good, every tom dick and harry, ah ma ah so all make money thinking they know how to play with stock and shares. But when the market crashed, people lose bungalows, apartments.... then they will realise what love means when their wives stay around with them to suffer the economic hardship. In the absence of money and wealth, it is abstract things like friendships, love,..that prevail.
We don't live our life as stipulated by the government. My parents had 3 children and the government punished them by giving my youngest brother no priority for school, but my father is always proud that he decided what he wanted for his family, not the government. We did not grow up with everything, but we are happy knowing there is love among us. Today, the government gives incentives for us to have more children, how do you decide? to me, go to hell with your incentive, me and my wife decide.
I wasn't born in singapore, but i grow up here with full local education, but my upbringing is more than just school and the government. My family education as an ethnic chinese, my moral values from my religion are the two other factors in making the present me. The values of these two education far far outweigh the values given by my education, from K1 to graduation in local U, in Singapore. don't learn too much from the pap, you will not need to blame them.
For me i believe in reaping what you sow... if you do not tend to the needs of the seedling and make sure they grow well, one shouldnt expect good fruits to bear.
I see that putting arts,music and sports beneath economic growth,as sowing the seeds of lack of national identity/loyalty. And of course having it easy for foreigners doesnt help at all. We need to look after our own citizens and nurture local talents rather than taking the easy solutions of importing them.
Advocating loyalty with moral arguments in Singapore is like using moral arguments to persuade people not to commit crime in a jobless, corrupted police environment. As much as we like to believe moral arguments can persuade people not to commit crimes, its easier to change the people's "moral" by creating the jobs and a more efficient police force. If govt continues to sows such seeds, i hope they wont be too surprised when the fruits come out. -
Simply put, there are many reasons why Singapore may go to war:
1) We are being attacked by an aggressive force
2) We antagonized others with our arrogant ministers and leaders, and this results in a war from a neighbouring country
3) We attack others (Yes, this is a War as defined by you)
4) Internal war within Singapore caused by internal instability
Perhaps you might want to explain to me when will patriotism be applied by you in the cases above
Also, I believe a man is useful by being alive than dead. Coz by being alive, only can he do things to help others. Dead? Just a stone to remember you by -
Don't worry guys.
It's time for
The Singapore 300
http://www.mrbrownshow.com/?p=788 -
I fully agree with everything you say here, wholeheartedly. But i believe should a war starts, especially one that threatens the very existance of singapore and the life of its citizens, e.g. country up north turns religious fanatic. That will not be the time when Singaporeans could bargain among ourselves, or when some holding the others ransom.Originally posted by kilua:I am glad that you have found friends and family members that support you in times of needs. In reality, friendship and love does not always prevail. There are many cases that are the opposite... the wife leaves the husband after a failed business, friends disappearing in times of needs...
For me i believe in reaping what you sow... if you do not tend to the needs of the seedling and make sure they grow well, one shouldnt expect good fruits to bear.
I see that putting arts,music and sports beneath economic growth,as sowing the seeds of lack of national identity/loyalty. And of course having it easy for foreigners doesnt help at all. We need to look after our own citizens and nurture local talents rather than taking the easy solutions of importing them.
Advocating loyalty with moral arguments in Singapore is like using moral arguments to persuade people not to commit crime in a jobless, corrupted police environment. As much as we like to believe moral arguments can persuade people not to commit crimes, its easier to change the people's "moral" by creating the jobs and a more efficient police force. If govt continues to sows such seeds, i hope they wont be too surprised when the fruits come out.
When singapore loses a war like this, we would not be replacing the old with a better government, every singaporean lose. But not everybody can run! my friend, many of us cannot run. If situation got worse, we need orderly evacuation. Under such circumstance, those run affects badly those who have to stay and fight.
If the war is similar to a military coup, with political fight among, then I would also be running, like Francis Seow, Tang Liang Hong (hahaha, just joking, I don't contribute like they did).
Nobody hope for a war, it is a strong and united armed forces that prevents a war. If it comes a day when a corrupt government starts a war to divert the attention of its citizens from domestic trouble, that would call for discussion here under a different scenario, and my position would change. I may not run, but I may not fight. -
What is being idealistic? I am talking about joining force with fellow singaporean in a military conflict against enemies who try to take over Singapore. If they are taking over the government, and if they are singaporean, that is a different story.Originally posted by soul_rage:as I summarized for our dear diehard, to me, he is just idealistic
Our govt doesn't value people who are willing to die for the country. Our govt values money and wealth and people whom are able to generate millions for the country.
I give you an analogy. I was once in an organization, where the people were like a family, and everyone was willing to sacrifice his time or work OT, over weekends to ensure that the organization was prospering.
Then... retrenchment came, and the retrenchment was made when the company was reporting excellent profits still.
And what happened to the 'family'? It was all gone, coz from that point onwards, the staff all know that the company doesn't care for them, and there is no worth in sacrificing their own time for the company to help the company to prosper. To the company, its those whom make millions for them (ie those at the top, whom are also those who proposed the cut in workforce to increase their profits), that they value.
Naturally, everyone started taking the individualistic stance. If you do not plan for yourself, and ensure your life is lived well, don't expect anyone to help you. If you don't plan escape routes on your own, don't expect anyone to help you when an emergency occurs. You will just die in the situation and no one cares.
Probably, just shed a few crocodile tears *shrugs*
I too have been retrenched, not by the government, never work for them, but by MNC, whose sole objective is to make max profits for shareholders. It is the same with SIA and the like, they make profits year after year but flight from Singapore is the most expensive. I don't fly SIA unless on company's account, loyalty? I am not guilty.
To put it short, I do not disagree with you on what companies are doing to their employees, I agree that emplolyees should use the law of jungle in working for such companies. But, in time of war, I see the MNC running definitely, and if you run along with them, you are no different from them, don't justify with "being practical". And please don't settle your score with them at the expense of the singapore people. -
Ok, I don't mean a corrupt govt. How about just internal turmoil, and the govt (with the usual style of LKY) wants the military to put down the protestors with whatever means necessary. What will you do? This is not a corrupt govt, just a govt where people are displeased with their actionsOriginally posted by sgdiehard:Nobody hope for a war, it is a strong and united armed forces that prevents a war. If it comes a day when a corrupt government starts a war to divert the attention of its citizens from domestic trouble, that would call for discussion here under a different scenario, and my position would change. I may not run, but I may not fight.
Will you kill the protestors, coz its patriotic to do so knowing that it will stop the internal turmoil, or refuse to do so and branded a traitor or coward?
I am just being practical. There are many different examples of conflicts, and not all are black and white -
if you had read my previous postings on the govt, I do not hate the people of Singapore. In fact, I found out that deep down in my heart, I care, that's why my vocal displeasure of the govt, coz I feel the govt is not doing what it is morally obliged to do to help the people.Originally posted by sgdiehard:To put it short, I do not disagree with you on what companies are doing to their employees, I agree that emplolyees should use the law of jungle in working for such companies. But, in time of war, I see the MNC running definitely, and if you run along with them, you are no different from them, don't justify with "being practical". And please don't settle your score with them at the expense of the singapore people.
I just do not see why I should put my life down for those jokers at the top with their million dollar salaries
I would rather leave, and help others to leave as far as possible, as much as possible. To me, this is just an island, it is the survival of the people that counts.
Standing here, and fight, and getting killed for some silly "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country", and getting a stone erected for you, is just silly to me.
The originator of that statement was a true gentleman, and lead by example (George Washington), when LKY uses it, its just to lock people mindlessly to their selfish cause. -
you are really insulting me, man. I don't quote LKY, ok!! I don't believe in mindless propangada. "Ask not what your country can do for you..." is not a Chinese maxim, this is something LKY quoted from some american leaders, Lincoln or washington.Originally posted by soul_rage:ah... so now you are quoting what LKY said in the english equivalent.
"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"
That is mindless propanganda, and is used to control minds to die for them.
Just look at China military. They are so well controlled by the govt that they can even shoot and kill students (their own people) during Tian An Men
So let me ask you
in a situation, where the country political and economic stability is at risk, due to internal protest movements, will you do what the govt ask you to do, to kill your own fellow countrymen, coz its necessary to save the country?
In this situation, You are being patriotic if you kill your own fellow countrymen, and being a coward if you refuse to act according to the govt instructions.
In fact, I think your definition of "going to war" is also very narrow. It could very well be an internal war contained with Singapore.
guo jia xing wang, pi fu you ze, means everybody is responsible for the rise and fall of its own country. To be clear, the responsibility is not about fighting for the country. Good advice given to help the country prosper, or to a "blur" ruler to resind some lousy regulations, are all part of it, during peace and war. To apply here, in what way are we responsible to Singapore? did you vote for pap or wp? did you voice your disagreement when you meet your MP, or you don't bother at all. Don't tell me there is no use, don't expect your MP to change the whole pap because you said something! have you written to the press to object to the rise in transport fare, have you one way or another express your disagreement to the authority about something? The Chinese maxim talks about responsibility, which is much wider in scope than doing something for the country.
You really have a blurred idea of what patriotism is all about. Patriotism is only about the loyalty of the people and their country, never apply in a civil war! anyway, it is very far fetch to talk about a civil war in singapore, what, aljunied vs geylang?
Remember your oath when enlisted? we pledge loyalty to our country and our people, not to the government, the political party, nor any individual. -
It is a clear NO. Simple, we are a civilian army, we pledge to defend our land and our people, against foreigner aggression. SAF does not, and should not take sides in politics. Killing protestors, no, depending on what they protest, I may be on the other side.Originally posted by soul_rage:Ok, I don't mean a corrupt govt. How about just internal turmoil, and the govt (with the usual style of LKY) wants the military to put down the protestors with whatever means necessary. What will you do? This is not a corrupt govt, just a govt where people are displeased with their actions
Will you kill the protestors, coz its patriotic to do so knowing that it will stop the internal turmoil, or refuse to do so and branded a traitor or coward?
I am just being practical. There are many different examples of conflicts, and not all are black and white
China never had riot police during June 4, and it was their practice to use military against protestors. Singapore use riot police, the "ang qia" the "red vehicles".
Of course, the line may be blur today with the war against terrorists. Some true local born might have gone to some training camps overseas and come back to plant a bomb, occupy a building and hold some hostages, the commandos might be called in to handle that. You can start a thread in Military Nuts to discuss. But in my opinion, shoot. Will you be taking the next flight out? -
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -Edward Abbey
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Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. -Mark Twain
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We should pledge loyalty to the government and political party.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Remember your oath when enlisted? we pledge loyalty to our country and our people, not to the government, the political party, nor any individual.
If they are no more around, our woman will have to be maids in other countries. -
If you plan with somebody to protest against rise in medical costs, but inform the government when and where this will happen, you are a traitor; and if you go along with the protest but run as soon as you see riot police, you are a coward.Originally posted by soul_rage:Ok, I don't mean a corrupt govt. How about just internal turmoil, and the govt (with the usual style of LKY) wants the military to put down the protestors with whatever means necessary. What will you do? This is not a corrupt govt, just a govt where people are displeased with their actions
Will you kill the protestors, coz its patriotic to do so knowing that it will stop the internal turmoil, or refuse to do so and branded a traitor or coward?
I am just being practical. There are many different examples of conflicts, and not all are black and white -
Originally posted by sgdiehard:you are really insulting me, man. I don't quote LKY, ok!! I don't believe in mindless propangada. "Ask not what your country can do for you..." is not a Chinese maxim, this is something LKY quoted from some american leaders, Lincoln or washington.
guo jia xing wang, pi fu you ze, means everybody is responsible for the rise and fall of its own country. To be clear, the responsibility is not about fighting for the country. Good advice given to help the country prosper, or to a "blur" ruler to resind some lousy regulations, are all part of it, during peace and war. To apply here, in what way are we responsible to Singapore? did you vote for pap or wp? did you voice your disagreement when you meet your MP, or you don't bother at all. Don't tell me there is no use, don't expect your MP to change the whole pap because you said something! have you written to the press to object to the rise in transport fare, have you one way or another express your disagreement to the authority about something? The Chinese maxim talks about responsibility, which is much wider in scope than doing something for the country.
You really have a blurred idea of what patriotism is all about. Patriotism is only about the loyalty of the people and their country, never apply in a civil war! anyway, it is very far fetch to talk about a civil war in singapore, what, aljunied vs geylang?
Remember your oath when enlisted? we pledge loyalty to our country and our people, not to the government, the political party, nor any individual.
hehe, what is wrong with quoting LKY, when what he wants to achieve is similar to what you are saying? Everyone is responsible for the rise and fall of the country. That's what he wants you to accept so that come a big issue, we are prepared to lay down our lives for the country, indirectly keeping their positions safe and secure. from your statements it seems you don't understand that I am one of the more vocal anti-pap singaporean. Yes yes yes, I have done more things that you could think of (whether be it signing the petition, or writing to the govt, or whatever)
Loyalty of people AND country? What is so far-fetched about talking about a civil war? People will tell you its far-fetched to even discuss about war. Why can't civil war happen?
"Things happen when people are overconfident"
As again, like I told you, I don't really see much to defend on this island. All I see is helping my fellow Singaporeans. That's the most I will do. Asking me to die for a piece of land, well, nay...
No, I don't have a blurred idea of patriotism. To be honest and blunt, I don't even know patriotism, much less how much it is worth. -
he not saying others are cowards, he is refering to you.Originally posted by soul_rage:well its up to you. You still do not have the right to call others cowards.
In another perspective, a man with a family may instead be the braver person to run to ensure his family doesn't get sacrificed in the war, and be labelled as a coward. He may run coz his wife loves him so much that she is prepared to kill herself if he dies.
It is your right to stay and fight. With your patriotic spirit, yes sure, I salute you. But there are many different aspects of life, and not everyone sees it in the same perspective as you. I also don't see patriotism as EQUALS to stay and fight. I think that is a very shallow and narrow way of viewing patriotism. -
Originally posted by citymax:he not saying others are cowards, he is refering to you.
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it doesn't matter. It just reflects on how narrow-minded you guys are.Originally posted by citymax:he not saying others are cowards, he is refering to you.
I don't go ard calling you fools just coz I don't understand patriotism *shrugs*
And what makes you so sure that I am the only one who think like this? At least, I am brave enough to step forward and offer a different point of view.
Or you both prefer to be like our govt. Everyone sings the same song, not becoz they agree to it, but becoz you guys don't want to hear the blunt truth?