A380 Airbus pilot win Arbitration
-
SINGAPORE : Singapore Airlines pilots who will be flying the new Airbus A380 fleet will get a better pay package.
In a decision that could set a new benchmark for the aviation industry, the Industrial Arbitration Court has decided that pilots should get a pay rise.
The new Airbus A380 planes are larger and have never been used by other airlines before.
The first of SIA's Airbus A380 fleet is due to arrive in October.
The Airline Pilots' Association (ALPA-S), led by Captain P James, had argued that pilots who fly these bigger planes have added responsibilities and thus deserve a pay rise. And the court agrees.
Captain James said, "We recognise there is no market data for the A380. Because there is no market data, we propose just an increase of S$1,000 for the captains, and the court has awarded S$700 and that's fine, it's at least more than half way what we wanted, so why not."
The Court ruled that the minimum salary for Captains on the A380 will be S$700 more than that of captains for the Boeing 747-400 series jet. And this works out to S$10,700 a month.
The maximum salary range will remain at S$16,500, which is also pegged against the maximum salary for the B-744.
In its ruling, the court also said the minimum salary for first officers on the A380 will be S$450 more than their colleagues on the B-744, with the maximum salary remaining at S$9,250.
SIA had earlier argued that flying the super jumbo is not very different from flying other planes due to technological advances.
But it says it is studying the implications of this salary revision.
The airline would have to incur more costs but it is likely to have little impact on its bottom-line.
The number of pilots affected by the ruling is also small, since the delivery of the new planes will be spread over the next few years.
SIA is satisfied with the outcome.
It said that with the judgement, it can now move forward with certainty and the pilots are keen to get the A380 off the ground.
Stephen Forshaw, Vice President, Public Affairs, Singapore Airlines, said, "We have to remember that from time to time, we are going to have differences of views with unions and issues; there is a process by which we are going to deal with those issues. I think at the end of the day, we've now got closure on this issue and we can now move forward.
"The judgement gives us some scope to work with the collective agreement negotiation coming up later in the year; the current agreement expires in September."
And looking forward, the court pointed out that it is not satisfactory that there must be negotiations for a new pay package every time SIA buys a new type of aircraft. And this should be considered when the new collective agreement is being worked out.
Addressing arguments from both sides, the panel said the ease with which modern planes may be manoeuvred is not a reason for docking the pilots' salaries.
Similarly, the size of a plane and the number of passengers carried cannot remain a reason for increasing the salaries of pilots.
In conclusion, the panel chaired by Justice Tan Lee Meng urged the ALPA-S and the SIA management to redouble their efforts to ensure continued success of the company.
He said while the sky is the limit for SIA, the pie in the sky has to be shared with other airlines who are ordering their affairs to be keener competitors of SIA. - CNA/ch/ms
$700 for pilot, $450 for co-pilot and SIA is lamenting about this increase is going to affect future earning -
so since there is a precedence now... how about bus captains???
-
If the bus captains want a pay rise, then kindly ask them to come out, state their case and ask for a raise just like what the pilots did.
Justify their case and prove their point. Dont expect a pay increase when they cant even be bothered to open their golden mouth. Typical!!!
-
How U know they didn't 'Open Their Golden Mouth' ?? Just that the Bus/MRT company will tell they - The Gate Is always Open - meaning not happy.... resign lor. Unlike Planes Captain.... Bus/MRT drivers are consider 'Low class' workers, plenty of people waiting for their Jobs. Therefore, open your mouth too much, get the pinkslip......Originally posted by Applecombi:If the bus captains want a pay rise, then kindly ask them to come out, state their case and ask for a raise just like what the pilots did.
Justify their case and prove their point. Dont expect a pay increase when they cant even be bothered to open their golden mouth. Typical!!! -
Pilots have ALPA-S to campaign for them.
Bus captains have what? -
cabin crew should ask for pay raise too.
-
I work for SMRT. U should have seen how powerless the Union is when it comes to pay rise matters. The Union ppl talk big before us, then becomes a toothless dog infront of the managment.Originally posted by Rock^Star:Pilots have ALPA-S to campaign for them.
Bus captains have what? -
Originally posted by hloc:
The Union Representatives only have ''dentures'', as the real teeth is with the NTUC which is supposed to be the umbrella body for all worker's unions to be affiliated under; and the NTUC Secretary-General is a Minister without Portfolio in the PM's Office.
I work for SMRT. U should have seen how powerless the Union is when it comes to pay rise matters. The Union ppl talk big before us, then becomes a toothless dog infront of the managment.
If the Secretary-General of the NTUC do not listen to the PM, he will lose his big fat Ministerial wage, and he will only be an ordinary worker, becoming only an ordinary union member.
How can ALPA-S not win their demand for wage increase - when they have all the reasons to win their case that are nearly similar to that offered by the PM for wage increases for his Cabinet Ministers and Civil Service ?
ALPA-S is independent from the NTUC and they represent their own interest, while the NTUC represent the interest of the Government - who claim to represent Singapore and Singaporeans - in a supposed Tripartite Relationship of the Workers, the Employers, and the Government.
With a convulted relationship of the NTUC and the Government both claiming to represent Singaporeans, who themselves are the workers represented by NTUC, how can the NTUC and the Government not have a louder voice ? -
So with the pay increased, are we expecting a much smoother ride on the Airbus A380?
-
Atobe has answered your query. If you think your union cannot get what you want, then kindly go represent your union and workers and justify a pay rise. No teeth then grow teeth, or do a root canal. otherwise accept the fact that you are willing to be screwed by the company.Originally posted by hloc:I work for SMRT. U should have seen how powerless the Union is when it comes to pay rise matters. The Union ppl talk big before us, then becomes a toothless dog infront of the managment.
Demand n supply. It just goes to show that pilots are in demand because of their job nature which CANNOT be easily replaced while the bus drivers job scope is different. apples vs oranges?
Frankly, looking at the facts presented in court, who deserved to win? Ask yourself. -
if you read carefully, SIA benefited greatly from this judgement.
The starting pay was upp-ed by only $700, whereas the max pay of $16k+ was what SIA wanted as the upper limit.
In addition, if you had read the newspaper today, 2 other judgements were made towards the benefit of the SIA.
All in all, its not a victory. I would think the judgement was biased towards the SIA. -
Bigger plane, more pay. This has been an unspoken rule in the aviation industry for a long time.
A pilot with thousands of hours in the 744 or 777, coupled with his newly learned A380 rating, will not find it very difficult all of a sudden to fly the airbus. ALPA-S should know their limits. After all, the basic pay for an SIA Captain may only be $10,000/mth but with allowance, it can go up to $25,000/mth. It's one of the highest in the world, losing out only to the likes of British Airways, American Airlines, Cathay, Qantas etc.
I think it's a reasonable settlement. -
deleted
-
Alpha-S has been street-wise. It saw the opportunity to press its claims for pay increases at the most opportune time after the government came under one of the heaviest fire by the people from all walks of life for its own baseless claims for pay increases to its ministers.
Although the learned arbitrator judge did not say so in so many words he will surely know that it will be downright hypocrisy to turn down Alpha-S claims which is based on proper evaluation with pays of similar positions in the same industry unlike the ministers who are asking for ridiculous 30% increases despite all their perks, unlimited bonuses and lifelong pensions which is totally without basis and unable to stand up to any objective standard of measurements or evaluation.
Just like the NKF case, the patients and donation public was lucky to have SPH taking the role of the oppressed at the change of leader when it presented a small window of opportunity for the wrongs to be vindicated. If not for this opportunity till today Durai would remain powerful suing away people who try to expose his golden taps. So it is clear that our laws are subjective and are being interpreted to suit the power that be.
One round to the pilots and they are just plain lucky this time that the judge has no choice but to reward them this time.[/b][/quote] -
But SIA is the biggest in terms of market cap and the MOST profitable airline in the world, and yet LOSE out to the likes of BA, AA, CX, QF, Emirates in terms of pilots' pay????............ why??..... aren't we the BEST???.....Originally posted by Rock^Star:Bigger plane, more pay. This has been an unspoken rule in the aviation industry for a long time.
A pilot with thousands of hours in the 744 or 777, coupled with his newly learned A380 rating, will not find it very difficult all of a sudden to fly the airbus. ALPA-S should know their limits. After all, the basic pay for an SIA Captain may only be $10,000/mth but with allowance, it can go up to $25,000/mth. It's one of the highest in the world, losing out only to the likes of British Airways, American Airlines, Cathay, Qantas etc.
I think it's a reasonable settlement.
I dont think the pilots are asking for MORE, they are asking to be treated FAIRLY and be paid MARKET RATES.
For your info, SIA is NOT one of the top 3 paying airline in the world, and amongst its competitors.
[/b] -
NTUC?Originally posted by Rock^Star:Pilots have ALPA-S to campaign for them.
Bus captains have what? -
Originally posted by Applecombi:
You mean in terms of market share, SIA is the biggest in the world? And also the most profitable? Perhaps you could help me along by quoting the source of info.
But SIA is the biggest in terms of market cap and the MOST profitable airline in the world, and yet LOSE out to the likes of BA, AA, CX, QF, Emirates in terms of pilots' pay????............ why??..... aren't we the BEST???.....
I dont think the pilots are asking for MORE, they are asking to be treated FAIRLY and be paid MARKET RATES.
For your info, SIA is NOT one of the top 3 paying airline in the world, and amongst its competitors.
[/b]
Another determinant of a pilot's pay has to do with the cost of living in the region. Cathay pilots require such high pay because the cost of housing and basic living is much higher than Singapore. Not to mention England, Australia, America and the UAE.
A pilot is no bigger than an airline.....just like no employee shall think himself above the company. SIA has to set the standard where pay is concerned, at the same time taking into account the salary standards justifiable for a pilot.
Also, labour market forces play a part too. There are many experienced Captains and Co-pilots out there queing to join SIA. No pilot, just because he has a wide-body rating, shall think of himself as indispensable. -
FYI:Originally posted by Rock^Star:You mean in terms of market share, SIA is the biggest in the world? And also the most profitable? Perhaps you could help me along by quoting the source of info.
Another determinant of a pilot's pay has to do with the cost of living in the region. Cathay pilots require such high pay because the cost of housing and basic living is much higher than Singapore. Not to mention England, Australia, America and the UAE.
A pilot is no bigger than an airline.....just like no employee shall think himself above the company. SIA has to set the standard where pay is concerned, at the same time taking into account the salary standards justifiable for a pilot.
Also, labour market forces play a part too. There are many experienced Captains and Co-pilots out there queing to join SIA. No pilot, just because he has a wide-body rating, shall think of himself as indispensable.
1."SIA world's largest airline by market cap", The Business Times, 23 January 2007.
2. Collectively, the Singapore Airlines Group (including SilkAir and Singapore Airlines Cargo) is the world's largest carrier by market capitalization, having overtaken Southwest Airlines in 2006/7,[9] and ranks amongst the top 15 carriers worldwide in terms of revenue passenger kilometres.[10] In addition, it is the 8th largest airline in Asia and ranked 6th in the world in terms of international passengers carried.[11] .....source wikipedia
Analyst reports after SIA reported her 2006/07 results on 11 may 07 will verify the above. Unfortunately, most of the info are archived.
Dollar for dollar wise, SIA does not pay as well as the airlines you mentioned. Even after factoring in the cost of living, currency, taxes, SIA is still not ranked amongst the top few airlines.
Agree that no pilot, or any employee is bigger than the company. But why is it so that the pilots are the ONLY ones who took no-pay-leave during SARS????? a few even got retrentched.......
There are many INEXPERIENCED pilots queuing to join SIA to obtain a wide body rating before leaving to join another company that pays better. BA pilots who join SIA after they retire still receive a pension from BA to supplement their income in SIN. -
[/b][/quote]Originally posted by robertteh:Alpha-S has been street-wise. It saw the opportunity to press its claims for pay increases at the most opportune time after the government came under one of the heaviest fire by the people from all walks of life for its own baseless claims for pay increases to its ministers.
Although the learned arbitrator judge did not say so in so many words he will surely know that it will be downright hypocrisy to turn down Alpha-S claims which is based on proper evaluation with pays of similar positions in the same industry unlike the ministers who are asking for ridiculous 30% increases despite all their perks, unlimited bonuses and lifelong pensions which is totally without basis and unable to stand up to any objective standard of measurements or evaluation.
Just like the NKF case, the patients and donation public was lucky to have SPH taking the role of the oppressed at the change of leader when it presented a small window of opportunity for the wrongs to be vindicated. If not for this opportunity till today Durai would remain powerful suing away people who try to expose his golden taps. So it is clear that our laws are subjective and are being interpreted to suit the power that be.
One round to the pilots and they are just plain lucky this time that the judge has no choice but to reward them this time.
!@#@$#$% I should take the opportunity to ask for a pay raise now.
Anyway, I still don't think the pilots win. Its more a SIA victory.
So much for great quality. Singapore company is always a Singapore company, always want CHEAP and GOOD (in that order). I really wonder how safe in the future is SIA, when they refuse to pay more to get good and experienced pilots. -
of course the A380 pilots will win the arbitration as they used the same logic as the pap when they argued for that 60% pay hike for their ministers!