Power to Detain
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Perhaps a fool such as yourself cannot see that boredom is perhaps a far worse torture than mere death. Death is but a quick escape from the burdens of the world, and for some people desperate for money, it just means they don't have to worry anymore and happily walk to the gallows.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:rather pluck figures from the air, I see
Or they could just find a MRT track to walk onto. -
oh that's where your assumptions come into play, not mine.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:rather pluck figures from the air, I see 
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yar right.....but y haven anybody do anything yet?....situation still remains the same as now and if no one taking action to abolish the facist regime it'll be the same as now in the next 10 years....Originally posted by (human):We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government. -Thomas Jefferson -
When you cannot back up your statements with facts, when you are unable to counter published statistics with official figures, there is little need to assume.Originally posted by LazerLordz:oh that's where your assumptions come into play, not mine. -
That only applies to people who believe that official figures are the holy grail.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:When you cannot back up your statements with facts, when you are unable to counter published statistics with official figures, there is little need to assume.
The world does not work in such naive ways, believe me. If you think published statistics tell the whole story, then you are not pushing the limit of your intellect. -
i htink altho i dont like ISA also, but if ONLY use to catch terrorist then i have no complaints. but if use to jail people for political reasons then... er..
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This is intresting..... it had been a few days since the S'porean DIY terrorist have been detain under the ISA...... and YET those here who oppose the ISA is keeping quite...... no one seems to be 'protesting' his arrest under ISA, no one is even writing anything about ISA being used wrongfully 'used' for this case....... Strange
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Every country has its own such law be it terrorist act or isa. It is used in an event of a clear and present danger to the Nation. Yes Human rights and abuse of such act may happen but benefit weights more then cons. It benefits the mass. The only issue we can demand is for the authorities to provide evidence and criminaly charge the person in court.
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Well.... read from the beginning of this thread, see how many person here disappove of the ISA. Listing down abuse as the main concren. And yet now that someone have been detain under ISA..... no one says anything, suddenly all those who voice disappoval of the ISA decide that it is now 'OK' to use ISA to detain someone..... thats why it's SOOO Strange......Originally posted by ahtansh:Every country has its own such law be it terrorist act or isa. It is used in an event of a clear and present danger to the Nation. Yes Human rights and abuse of such act may happen but benefit weights more then cons. It benefits the mass. The only issue we can demand is for the authorities to provide evidence and criminaly charge the person in court. -
Between a terrorist attack and getting locked up without trial for tens of years I would choose the former.
Not all cases of invoking ISA are abuses of power. There was pretty good evidence against the self-made terrorist, and one may say it was 'right' to use the ISA based on this.
However, how many people are detained wrongly for one 'right' person? Furthermore, the JI members detained under this act have undergone counselling, and some are currently under house arrest rather than in prison. How many former communists got a chance to be counselled?
In conclusion, the ISA has to go. -
Right from the start, we strongly detested the detention without trial and evidence by the ISA. And if stayed closely on the news of the law graduate, there has already been evidence of his travel, activities involved etc. And most important of all, we oppose those instance whereby ISA detained politicians claiming they are of danger to the society without evidence or charge. I believe that even if a politician is communist influenced or leftist/rightist, he should be allowed to speak and critise the govt freely and not seen as a threat to the community. No politician will want to harm his country's people, they only will want the better for them. And FYI, that law grad is facing a charge.Originally posted by hloc:Well.... read from the beginning of this thread, see how many person here disappove of the ISA. Listing down abuse as the main concren. And yet now that someone have been detain under ISA..... no one says anything, suddenly all those who voice disappoval of the ISA decide that it is now 'OK' to use ISA to detain someone..... thats why it's SOOO Strange...... -
Somehow hloc is unable to see the distinction between properly applying an act like the ISA and embracing it warts and all and ignoring its flaws.
The question is what checks and measures are in place to make sure such a law is not abused?
We don't protest having out policemen walking around with guns, but we would certianly have an issue if the policy was for them to use their guns anyhow and to be trigger happy in situtations that call for a lot less force.
And because we do not support being trigger happy does not mean we want our policemen to go around with guns.
So yes, ISA for the terrorists, but I think we best do well before using it as some kind of a hush-up law in a trigger happy fashion. And if that happens, people jolly well and rightfully have an issue with it.
The question is this... how have we been using this law? -
If someone is guilty of terrorism, charge him in court. Let not secrecy undermine the justice system. There are ways of charging someone in court without compromising intelligence gathering activity. Let us not become like Gitmo. -
Well.... this seems more intresting. But ain't YOU all worry that the evidence was 'Made Up' by the Govt
It just seems strange to me that now some of you are willing to accept the Govt's evidence sooo easily this time.
When i state my support for ISA against Terrorization.... sooo many here decided that ISA is 'Bad' and question would I like to be the one under detaintion, that the ISA could be abused...... But now, those that ask these question have remain silent about this DIY terrorist.
Just feel strange that those who are sooo scare of ISA, decide that this time the evidence was enough. And that they don't 'feel' a need to voice against the detaintion...... Just wondering what happen
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We already became Gitmo as far back as the Communist insurgency days. I don't think anyone has even mentioned those who were locked up by under the ISA and attempts to print the books by the exiles was blocked.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Let me throw a spanner here..
If a Singaporean feels strongly about the abuses of Robert Mugabe's dictatorship in Zimbabwe, and recruits people and attempts to overthrow it with foreign funding, is he committing a crime in Singapore?
This is a very serious issue here. Today it's Islamic militants, what if tomorrow it is a charge against people who want to overthrow totalitarian governments. How far will this go?
If someone is guilty of terrorism, charge him in court. Let not secrecy undermine the justice system. There are ways of charging someone in court without compromising intelligence gathering activity. Let us not become like Gitmo.
What many have chosen to have selective memory of is that at one of point time, LKY colluded with these people, only for his own political ends. However, it became clear that that it backfired on him (so typical of the his methodology) and he retaliated with his usual vindictiveness. The entire affair is akin to the Egyptian pharaohs "erasing the names of his enemies from every obelisk etc." Now, we don't know much about the insurgency beyond the protests etc. The story now is pretty one sided, if you ask me. -
Originally posted by hloc:
Of course no one will abdicate this point of view, but to date in Singapore, I don't feel it is that dramatic. What you have just suggested is like the story line of 'Prison Break'?
Well.... this seems more intresting. But ain't YOU all worry that the evidence was 'Made Up' by the Govt It just seems strange to me that now some of you are willing to accept the Govt's evidence sooo easily this time.
[b]When i state my support for ISA against Terrorization.... sooo many here decided that ISA is 'Bad' and question would I like to be the one under detaintion, that the ISA could be abused...... But now, those that ask these question have remain silent about this DIY terrorist.
Just feel strange that those who are sooo scare of ISA, decide that this time the evidence was enough. And that they don't 'feel' a need to voice against the detaintion...... Just wondering what happen
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In any case whether evidence is made up or not, I strongly believe that the jurisdiction system is one of the fairest in the world. The judge also have the power to convict any citizen found guilty, including ministers and etc. That is why we need a trial with a charge and relevant evidence to put someone behind bars, and not be detained without any charge and trial indefinitely. -
And yet so many here will disagree with U on that point.Originally posted by Hitler II:Of course no one will abdicate this point of view, but to date in Singapore, I don't feel it is that dramatic. What you have just suggested is like the story line of 'Prison Break'?
In any case whether evidence is made up or not, I strongly believe that the jurisdiction system is one of the fairest in the world. The judge also have the power to convict any citizen found guilty, including ministers and etc. That is why we need a trial with a charge and relevant evidence to put someone behind bars, and not be detained without any charge and trial indefinitely.
What we have here is a case of ''people I believe is innocent, I protest ISA..... people I think is gulity.... ISA is Ok."
Where are those who's view are"against ISA no matter what". How could those ppl in the beginning of this thread, who support the removal of the ISA now chose to remain silent about this detaintion Isn't it a little Hypocritical. Its like saying - ''I against ISA..... but it is Ok if it is used on Terrorist."
For the record, I support ISA as a law to save guard our country. As I supported it in the beginning of this thread.... as I supported it now. To those who's self-declare Anti-ISA, YOUR silent is really really deafening.... -
Originally posted by hloc:
hahahaha, hloc you are really making me laugh! please understand the problem more critically. Ok why not I try again to give you some real idea of what is happening.
And yet so many here will disagree with U on that point.
What we have here is a case of [b]''people I believe is innocent, I protest ISA..... people I think is gulity.... ISA is Ok."
Where are those who's view are"against ISA no matter what". How could those ppl in the beginning of this thread, who support the removal of the ISA now chose to remain silent about this detaintion Isn't it a little Hypocritical. Its like saying - ''I against ISA..... but it is Ok if it is used on Terrorist."
For the record, I support ISA as a law to save guard our country. As I supported it in the beginning of this thread.... as I supported it now. To those who's self-declare Anti-ISA, YOUR silent is really really deafening.... [/b]
ISA is an act where people can be detained indefinitely if one is found to be of a threat to the society. yes threat and what kind of threat should be liable for such indefinite detention? I don't think any form of threat with only an empty accusation qualifies for such indefinite detention.
There has to be a TRIAL, CHARGE by a proper jurisdiction and not by a few peanuts working in ISD and a minister whom decides whether the detention is to be extended anot. Understand???
ISA is just an act, some people suggests that it be removed and replaced with a better act, some others want a change in the act will do. It's because the majority of Singapore do not know its adverse effects and the individuals it had wronged and harmed, that the majority of Singaporeans feel yes the ISA is good, it simply wipes out almost all possible threats and having a few of our Singaporean's 'lifes' sacrficed is OK. -
Hitler II.... please understand that my posting is not about you. But about those who Self-righteously declare that ISA is all evil and therefore must be removed....... and yet now chose to remain silent....... don't you think its strange
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Originally posted by hloc:
Hmmm I think maybe they do not know what really the situation is, but they are aware of this act which is interfering with innocents' life and hence detest the act. Anyway hloc, its a pleasure to have views from people like you who oppose the removal of ISA. It makes us think more critically too!
[b]Hitler II.... please understand that my posting is not about you. But about those who Self-righteously declare that ISA is all evil and therefore must be removed....... and yet now chose to remain silent....... don't you think its strange [/b]
Anyway, what I hope the govt will make a change is to rewrite the act so that detention ain't indefinite. Maybe cap it at at most a year, put him under close watch by undercovers while not interfering his life with his family. This, he has a chance to proof his innocence, and if he really is involved in certain abominable activities, the ISD will be able to even trace and find out more, get to the roots and clear the pests.
Yeah saying all this is easy and makes sense, but to carry them out is difficile. A team should be set up to revise the act asap before more innocents are lost and which also provide a chance for the guilty to flee.