[IHT] Myanmar is a problem, says Singapore PM.
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SINGAPORE:
Southeast Asia's main grouping is virtually powerless to bring democracy to Myanmar, but its neighbors should not be blamed for the actions of the reclusive nation's junta, Singapore's prime minister said Friday.
"We have exercised our influence, persuaded, encouraged, cajoled the authorities in Myanmar to move and adapt to the world which is leaving them behind. The impact has been limited," Lee Hsien Loong said.
Lee said Myanmar was a "problem" for the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, which welcomed Myanmar as its 10th member partly in hopes of helping ease the country's political repression.
"We can take a strident position and say well, we will condemn you, we will shut you off, we will embargo you, we will put you in a dog house," Lee said. "Will we make things better? Will we cause things to change? I don't believe so."
Lee appealed to ASEAN's dialogue partners, mainly the United States and the European Union, not to limit contacts with the organization due to their differences with Myanmar.
"We should not, because of Myanmar, forsake the cooperation, the relationship, the mutual exchange and enrichment which is waiting to take place and I believe that this message has had some effect," said Lee.
Myanmar should have held ASEAN's rotating chairmanship and hosted the regional summit this year, but gave up the chance after protests by Western governments.
Myanmar has been under military rule since 1962, and the currently ruling generals took power in 1988. They called elections in 1990, but refused to recognize the results when the party of pro-democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi won a resounding victory.
Suu Kyi has been held continuously under house arrest by Myanmar's ruling junta since 2003.
Myanmar's entry into ASEAN forced a challenge to the group's traditional avowal of noninterference in its members' internal affairs.
"ASEAN has decided not to have a consensus position. We will leave Myanmar to work itself out," Lee said.
While ASEAN members have shied away from taking a common position toward the regime fearing discord, the bloc last month appealed to the junta not to renew Suu Kyi's detention. Myanmar ignored the appeal.
"They want to be closed off from the rest of ASEAN," Lee said. Ideally Myanmar will adjust not under pressure but because it makes sense for themselves and for their leaders to move forward."
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/01/asia/AS-GEN-Asia-Security-Summit-Myanmar.php
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Will ASEAN allow Burma to diminish the grouping's standing in an era where regional cooperation is very important, and ASEAN is already in the shadow of China and India in terms of investment inflow and we need the US and EU to remain engaged.
Will pragmatism take over and lead ASEAN to realise that their strategic partnership with the other major powers is more important, and that the Burmese junta is a hindrance towards improving ASEAN-EU and ASEAN-US relationships and financial linkages, not to mention anchoring them to the region?
Will East Asia become a place where money is the only language, and China will establish a foothold here because she doesn't care for liberal rights and ruling attitudes as long as her economic power is there to be expanded. What kind of East Asia and ASEAN should concerned observers wish to have?
This issue will not go away overnight, and I forsee deeper splits in ASEAN over Burma. This is not good for a regional grouping that seeks to strengthen regionalism and community building amongst her member states. Likewise, if a state does not subscribe to this long-term goal, decisive action needs to be done. Has engagement proven to obtain any fruitful development in Rangoon? I don't think so.
If anything has happened, I think the junta has merely become more reclusive. It's always easy to claim totalitarian power, but it's harder to open up a nation. -
sounds very much like backstabing..
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Backstabbing? Care to elaborate?Originally posted by club18:sounds very much like backstabing..
Are you saying that Burma is indirectly backstabbing ASEAN through her behavior? -
Myanmar is endowed with abundant natural resources. The logging of teak and other hardwood and the mining of precious gemstones contribute significantly to GDP. Other major economic activities include manufacturing, with an emphasis on heavy industrial production. The major exports include rice, timber and wood products (especially quality hardwood), petroleum and various minerals and precious gems. Energy production is an increasingly important activity and several foreign companies are engaged in oil exploration and hydroelectric projects.
what good does it serve for the military to open their country up? they can milk these resources and put into their own pockets. God knows these military generals are F%UKing rich.
the same can be said of the PAP by controlling our media. what good does it serve to them? we all know.
I hope the LEEs and look at themselvfes before they speak behind someone back. -
The 'Road Map to Democracy' (an Asean initiative created when Myanmar joined the grouping, no doubt to plascate the disdain held by the EU and the U.S when Asean decided to admit the Junta-Govt. into the grouping) for Myanmar hasn't exactly gone according to plan. I guess that is the background we have to view PM Lee's statement in.
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I think maybe he meant the SIngapore PM backstabbing the Junta....with a plastic knife.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Backstabbing? Care to elaborate?
Are you saying that Burma is indirectly backstabbing ASEAN through her behavior?
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pot calling the kettle black
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I guarantee Singapore leaders would not dare say or do anything against Burma.
If they even try...Burma general will tell Singapore PM and MM -
"Hey, you are no different from us! Your political system is same same as Myanmar."
True, like you said, it will be a pot calling the kettle black -
i shudder at the similarities......
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Our leaders are spineless and only capable of waving around dildos and pretending the dildos are large.Originally posted by justiceforall:I guarantee Singapore leaders would not dare say or do anything against Burma.
If they even try...Burma general will tell Singapore PM and MM -
"Hey, you are no different from us! Your political system is same same as Myanmar."
True, like you said, it will be a pot calling the kettle black -
So what if we want to backstab them? Like the Burmese junta is worth any sympathy.
If it serves the Singaporean interest abroad, who gives a damn. -
This topic rekindled my interest in BurmaÂ’s history. Between Aug-Sep , 1988, the military suppressed a country wide peaceful pro-democracy demonstration . More than 3,000 unarmed peaceful demonstrators were murdered.
The "8888 Uprising," the largest ever national Burmese uprising demanding democracy, erupted on 8 August 1988 in Rangoon .The moment of uprising came precisely at eight minutes past eight on the morning of the eighth month of 1988. This was the auspicious time the dock workers, the "first wave," chose to strike. Other workers followed in succession; and in subsequent days and weeks almost everyone in the cities and towns, it seemed, showed a courage equal to those who stormed the Berlin Wall the following year. Without guns, ordinary people, including the students, began their peaceful demonstration.
Over a few days, the demonstration spread to other stateÂ’s capitals . Student leaders demanded the restoration of democratic govt.
Ne WinÂ’s govt fell and the army imposed martial law . Then the slaughter began. The crematoriums had never seen better days, very busy. The dead and the injured were mixed up. Some were burned alive. One exiled student spoke of hearing a wounded schoolboy cry out for his mother as he was buried alive in the cemetery.
And when the troops were runinng out of ammunitions at the height of the demonstrations, one of AsiaÂ’s four new economic tigersÂ’ state arms company came to rescue the Burmese army. No price for guessing right.
When Ne Win was terminally ill, he was in and out of SingaporeÂ’s hospitals. Well, heÂ’s fertilizer now. -
As Sgp wants to be part of the 'civilised' world, it has to officially 'condemn' the lack of democracy in Burma. That's why Sgp officials can confidently tell the foreign press that Sgp views Burma as a problem.
But the EU and USA, who also view Burma as a 'problem', have already done something concrete and put up some sanctions against it. See http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/myanmar/intro/index.htm for example. High-ranking Burmese officials have restricitions in travelling to these countries; arms-sales from these countries to Burma is also restricted etc.
But even though Sgp sees Burma as a 'problem', it has done nothing concrete to help the civilians there to usher in a democratically elected govt in Burma. In fact, according to http://www.myanmar.gov.mm/myanmartimes/no203/MyanmarTimes11-203/003.htm, Sgp is the largest investor in Burma, with 72 investments in mainly the tourism-industry there. Yes, Sgp's investments in Burma is bound to help some poor Burmese civilians in terms of providing employment and contracts, but let's be honest, the generals and their cronies are likely to be the biggest gainers from Sgp's investments.
I wonder how much of the US$1.5billion has gone directly to line the pockets of the generals, of whom some Sgp officials would describe as, ironically, 'problematic'. -
"Problem"? what a poor choice of word from a government head ....
1st of all, if it's a "problem", it's Burma's own problem and it's up to them to solve it. It's not up to S'pore to define which country is a problem. When you declare and see someone as a "problem", the undertone is you are going to "solve" it. Bush saw Saddam and Iraq as a "problem", and we all know what happened to them.
2ndly, when you declare a "problem", but lack the ability to solve it, as it's clearly the case for S'pore, it diminishes your own standing and you lose respect from others. As much as some forumers here desire S'pore to be the deputy sheriff of USA, I doubt any sane govt leaders of S'pore would spearhead a "regime change" in Burma.
last but not least, what the PM really meant was, Burma was an "issue" that ASEAN community need to discuss and consult. It would be more appropriate and less arrogant. Burma's generals certainly don't see themselves as a "problem" for anyone, they certainly will resent hearing it from anyone, let alone a fellow ASEAN member country.
It seems PM Lee is still wet behind ears when it comes to diplomacy. -
worry about our own backyard first before messing with other people's business.
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Oh, don't worry. We've been messing in people's backyard for years.Originally posted by mistyblue:worry about our own backyard first before messing with other people's business.
It's only either a direct outcome, or something down the line attributed to the domino effect of the involvement of Singaporean firms or the government.
Think Shin Corp and the Western Australian land scandal two, three months back that caused few state ministers to resign. -
maybe they will be more to come in future..who knows..? think indonesia..Originally posted by LazerLordz:Oh, don't worry. We've been messing in people's backyard for years.
It's only either a direct outcome, or something down the line attributed to the domino effect of the involvement of Singaporean firms or the government.
Think Shin Corp and the Western Australian land scandal two, three months back that caused few state ministers to resign. -
I'm more worried about our PSA operations in Baluchistan's Port Gwadar, given that the region is highly unstable at the moment, and the tribes there are increasingly influenced with Taliban elements from Peshawar and the NEFP.Originally posted by 4getmenot:maybe they will be more to come in future..who knows..? think indonesia.. -
Ideally Myanmar will adjust not under pressure but because it makes sense for themselves and for their leaders to move forward."Originally posted by vito_corleone:pot calling the kettle black
huh, I am about to say the same!!
Shame shame, what about himself huh? 
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With a bunch of either inefficient, corrupt or despotic regimes making up ASEAN, what hope is there for reforms to be implemented in Myanmar through pressure brought about by ASEAN?
To expect the ASEAN nations to rein in Myanmar is no different from counting on a police force comprising of murderers, rapists and robbers to maintain law and order. Now, what's the probability of that being effective?
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i have always ponder why Singapore position on Myanmar, In the past i believe Singapore aways speak on ambiguity on our position, and spoke thru our position thru ASEAN. I am surprise to see LHL take this issue seemed like a position outside Asean.
Anyway, i don't agreed on any point that LHL has made, I think this would hamper our creditbilities to make moral choices its dictate what kind of regime we are? as mention in other forum if War crime are commited against its citizens are proven than Singapore look like siht in the UN. Our international support within UN will change for years to come.
But I also think it has to do with China influence on Myanmar. I would like to believe that Singapore may want to lobby Myanmar to Asean to keep the peace rather than expel from Asean and allied itself with china completely.
So until now I think Real politics prevealed. -
All the more for the regime to open up and let international help to get in.Originally posted by LazerLordz:I'm more worried about our PSA operations in Baluchistan's Port Gwadar, given that the region is highly unstable at the moment, and the tribes there are increasingly influenced with Taliban elements from Peshawar and the NEFP. -
Not so simple. Pakistan is pretty similar to UAE in terms of Govt. Very tribalistic, and in some ways, Govt authority is limited to the cities and has only some degree of influence on the tribes.Originally posted by Arapahoe:All the more for the regime to open up and let international help to get in. -
Southeast Asia's main grouping is virtually powerless to bring democracy to Myanmar, but its neighbors should not be blamed for the actions of the reclusive nation's junta, Singapore's prime minister said Friday.
meaning, we need them now, we should form closer ties with them
"We have exercised our influence, persuaded, encouraged, cajoled the authorities in Myanmar to move and adapt to the world which is leaving them behind. The impact has been limited," Lee Hsien Loong said.
meaning, we try to wayang say they bad, but they dun change, what can we do?
Lee said Myanmar was a "problem" for the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, which welcomed Myanmar as its 10th member partly in hopes of helping ease the country's political repression.
we want to get good things from them so we welcome them.
"We can take a strident position and say well, we will condemn you, we will shut you off, we will embargo you, we will put you in a dog house," Lee said. "Will we make things better? Will we cause things to change? I don't believe so."
meaning, we really need to trade with you, sand and granite, north and south of us dun do business with us. so we need you now.
Lee appealed to ASEAN's dialogue partners, mainly the United States and the European Union, not to limit contacts with the organization due to their differences with Myanmar.
meaning, hell we are that desperate
"We should not, because of Myanmar, forsake the cooperation, the relationship, the mutual exchange and enrichment which is waiting to take place and I believe that this message has had some effect," said Lee.
meaning, we are really that desperate.
Myanmar should have held ASEAN's rotating chairmanship and hosted the regional summit this year, but gave up the chance after protests by Western governments.
Myanmar has been under military rule since 1962, and the currently ruling generals took power in 1988. They called elections in 1990, but refused to recognize the results when the party of pro-democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi won a resounding victory.
Suu Kyi has been held continuously under house arrest by Myanmar's ruling junta since 2003.
Myanmar's entry into ASEAN forced a challenge to the group's traditional avowal of noninterference in its members' internal affairs.
"ASEAN has decided not to have a consensus position. We will leave Myanmar to work itself out," Lee said.
meaning, we need your sand and granite, ahem....she can stay in jail.
While ASEAN members have shied away from taking a common position toward the regime fearing discord, the bloc last month appealed to the junta not to renew Suu Kyi's detention. Myanmar ignored the appeal.
meaning, As part of Asean, we should follow lah, but we really need to see to our own advantage.
"They want to be closed off from the rest of ASEAN," Lee said. Ideally Myanmar will adjust not under pressure but because it makes sense for themselves and for their leaders to move forward."
meaning, dun force them lah, but we need sand and granite from them
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/01/asia/AS-GEN-Asia-Security-Summit-Myanmar.php
Hmmm....say one thing, do another thing......