How does SAF match up against other REGIONAL armed forces?
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heheh, dunno whether you all bother or not, but anyway,
Col Sadanand Varma
Head of Doctrine Development Group
Army and Training Doctrine Command
Pasir Laba Camp
is giving a talk at my school (RI) on 23rd Oct...
entitled 'Our Defence Policies and the role of SAF'
its pretty short, only a 25 min speech though, there will be Q 'n A but I never pick up enough courage to ask questions at something like that. This will be our Sec 2 Annual Lunch Talk on National education issues, something like that...
I'm gonna see what i can hear, though its still quite some time off, 23rd Oct is a long way to go... -
finally found th excerpt on Singapore from Janes again, here it is for those who haven't seen it...
http://www.janes.com/press/pc010622_1.shtml
can comment on it too... -
Actually i read this before anyway no harm read it again
In Ten years time maybe by looking at its arm procurements
6 project delta stealth frigates , maybe 20 new generations planes
yet to be announced , maybe 20+ apache longbow , amount of F-16 falcon blk 52 will be roughly over 60+ when a combination of oversea Fleet , Locally based and 20 F-16 yet to be delivered by lockheed martin it was ordered on July 21 2000 , SPH that are base on US M109 chassis , Lalee UAV.
It could be describe as one if the AMX-13SM1 is replaced
More advance missiles such as scalp , Alarm , popeye.....
, MLRS vehicle , advanced C4I system ,military satelite from Recon
with these weaponary hehehee
see who dare to pull a hair from us.
Anyway SAF is already on its way to be expeditionary force having force oversea and getting more actively involving in UN mission.
of course a true expeditonary force its to be able to protect its homeland and be able to project forces oversea -
Actually i read this before anyway no harm read it again
In Ten years time maybe by looking at its arm procurements
6 project delta stealth frigates , maybe 20 new generations planes
yet to be announced , maybe 20+ apache longbow , amount of F-16 falcon blk 52 will be roughly over 60+ when a combination of oversea Fleet , Locally based and 20 F-16 yet to be delivered by lockheed martin it was ordered on July 21 2000 , SPH that are base on US M109 chassis , Lalee UAV.
It could be describe as one if the AMX-13SM1 is replaced
More advance missiles such as scalp , Alarm , popeye.....
, MLRS vehicle , advanced C4I system ,military satelite from Recon
with these weaponary hehehee see who dare to pull a hair from us.
Anyway SAF is already on its way to be expeditionary force having force oversea and getting more actively involving in UN mission.
of course a true expeditonary force its to be able to protect its homeland and be able to project forces oversea -
Actually i read this before anyway no harm read it again
In Ten years time maybe by looking at its arm procurements
6 project delta stealth frigates , maybe 20 new generations planes
yet to be announced , maybe 20+ apache longbow , amount of F-16 falcon blk 52 will be roughly over 60+ when a combination of oversea Fleet , Locally based and 20 F-16 yet to be delivered by lockheed martin it was ordered on July 21 2000 , SPH that are base on US M109 chassis , Lalee UAV.
It could be describe as one if the AMX-13SM1 is replaced
More advance missiles such as scalp , Alarm , popeye.....
, MLRS vehicle , advanced C4I system ,military satelite from Recon
with these weaponary hehehee see who dare to pull a hair from us.
Anyway SAF is already on its way to be expeditionary force having force oversea and getting more actively involving in UN mission.
of course a true expeditonary force its to be able to protect its homeland and be able to project forces oversea -
i think projecting its force overseas will be a problem, SG does not have a large enough armed forces so as to project overseas
Mobilising ofr long term only feasible if Singapore under threat directly. If you deploy them overseas or call them up because you deploy your standing force overseas, thats going to be uproar and economic standstill. People will lose jobs and companies will lose revenue.
Probably can act as balance for region and take lead in issues here. Its already taking the lead for many things in ASEAN. For example, SG is the one always lobbying for FTA and other agreements.
With a powerful force of Singapore in ASEAN itself, any aggressor, wether within or outside ASEAN, will think twice about whacking any country in ASEAN since there is a strong force nearby which can help take back lost territory. Of course, other countries can play this balancing role but Singapore is the closest to achieving it with the ability to maintain that position as well.
So SAF might be able to apply its deterrence role regionally as well. -
To me my view of Expeditionary force is a force able to be mobilise deploy to a touble spot swiftly with use of advance technology.singapore will be receiving its first ocean going naval combat vessel project delta frigate,this will allow RSN to deploy ship to further destination to carry out mission like UN vessal esort mission.
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Heh, Laser, U from RI har? sigh, its been a looooong time.... I remember when I was in RJC, and we had the S-cube seminar o Singapore's defence capability, we had 1 student come up and ask what would Singapore do if Malaysia sent bombers to bomb singapore
sigh..... didn't know whether to cry or laugh at that time. So do RI a favour, go ask something intelligent, you can do it. (and pass us what info you get,ok 
) -
found a pretty good .doc, not sure of its mistakes other than about the UAV(should be Searcher II instead of scout, right?) and TA-4SU (should be more than the number they wrote), some air force plane quantities can also be disputed...
anyway, here's the site:
http://www.vic-info.org/RegionsTop.nsf/b0a93faa9a7b902f8a25682c000e4eff/2479f7ff7f04bff68a256a1f0010dcc7/$FILE/Singapore+Primer+03-30-01+web.doc
(yeah i know the url is quite long...)
it is from a US source but not government source, pretty good consolidation of info, also like the ORBAT
To YourFather:
no courage/confidence lah, anyway i'll see whether i remember enough stuff to post. . ., normally, people don't say too much on the military when addressing a school, even when it is a talk about the military. What he say will all be public domain liao also...[/url] -
okay, found a more updated version of the document above:
http://www.vic-info.org/RegionsTop.nsf/e725351f8cffc90b8a25682d0065b627/9f1cffe288e8e6b70a256b5800002af8/$FILE/Singapore+Primer+02-01-02web.doc -
decided to do some comparison on the Victory-class corvettes and Lekiu class frigates... not to say that we are fighting a war with M'sia...
decided to take out table, here it is put simple
Victory-class (6 in service)
crew of 49
550 tonnes
35 knots
4000 miles
8 (2*4) McDonnell Douglas Harpoon
0.85 Mach
110 km
16 (2*
Rafael Barak
Mach 2
10 km range
1 76mm OTO Melara Super Rapide
160 rounds/minute
16 km range
4 CIS 50 12.7mm
400-600 rounds/minute
Machinegun
6 (2*3) 324mm Whitehead B515 torp tubes
Whitehead A244S
6kg shells
7km
33 knots
Thomson Sintra TSM 2064
2 Plessey Shield chaff launchers
9-barrelled
Ericson Sea Giraffe 150HC
surface search radar
Kelvin Hughes 1007
I band
navigation radar
not sure what air search radar used
2 Elta EL/M-2221
I/J/K band
fire control radar
too small for any onboard helis
---------------------------
Lekiu (2 in service)
crew of 138
2270 tonnes
28knots
5000 miles range
8 (2*4) MM40 Block II Exocet
0.9 Mach
42 km range
16 Seawolf
2.5 Mach
6 km range
1 Bofors 57mm
2.4kg shells
220 rounds/minute
17km range
2 MSI 30mm
0.36kg shells
660 rounds/minute
10 km range
6 (2*3) 324mm Whitehead B515 torp tubes
not sure what torps are used
Thomson Sintra Spherion
sonar
2 Super Barrage chaff launchers
12-barrelled
Ericson Sea Giraffe 150HC
surface search radar
Racal
I band
navigation radar
Signaal DA 08
air search radar
2 Marconi 1802
fire control radar
1 Westland Lynx Heli
---------------------------------------------------
thats about it, i dun understand a thing about those radars and sonar, so anyone who can compare can do that part....
other than that, i think it pretty obvious that the RSN operates ships and employs weapons more economically than RMN. It carries the rough equivalent of the RMN frigates despite being less than 1/3 the size of the RMN frigates. The crew used is therefore also much smaller..., however, the main difference is the heli on board the frigate. It can be very potent if used effectively..., spotting enemy ships for firing solutions, etc.
this compares what is probably the best class of fighting ships of both navies...
also, I'm not too sure on the range of the Exocet, seems a bit short to me...
Malaysia also has 2 1,900 tonne Kasturi-class frigate which carry 4 Exocets each, that is about the load of Singapore's 6 MGBs.. although the MGBs use harpoons... even Singapore's 6 PVs can carry 4 Gabriel SSMs.... so it shows that RSN employs more weapons with smaller, faster and therefore more economical platforms...
pls comment... -
Appreciate your effort...but err....we see a lot of HTML coding too.Originally posted by laser51088:decided to do some comparison on the Victory-class corvettes and Lekiu class frigates... not to say that we are fighting a war with M'sia... -
comparing apples with oranges really... one's a corvette, one's a frigate. might be more helpful if we compared Lekiu with our version of the Lafayette when the specs are finalised and cleared for public consumption.
the Lekiu is nearly twice as big, displaces 4 about times more and has a longer range. the Victory was designed to optimize manpower (just like the new Lafayette) and out maneuvre enemies at sea (smaller but faster).
but from the way it looks, the Victory is armed to the teeth and stands a good chance one-on-one. except that the Lekiu's on board helipad gives it better ASW and reconnaissance abilities.
source: NASOG.NET
VICTORY CLASS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Country Of Origin: Singapore
Designation: Corvette
Class: VICTORY
In Service: 6
Pennant Number
Ships Name
(P 8 VICTORY
(P 89) VALOUR
(P 90) VIGILANCE
(P 91) VALIANT
(P 92) VIGOUR
(P 93) VENGEANCE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DIMENSIONS
Displacement: 550.0 (Tons) (Fully Loaded)
Length: 62.4 (Metres)
Beam: 8.5 (Metres)
Draught: 3.1 (Metres)
Speed: 35.0 (Knots)
Range: 4000 at 18 kts (Miles)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DETECTION SYSTEMS
Radar System:
Surface: Ericsson / Radamec Sea Giraffe 150HC
Navigation: Racal Decca
Fire Control: Bofors Electronic 9LV 200
Sonar System: Thomson Sintra TSM 2064
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ARMAMENT
Missiles: SSM - 8 McDonnell Douglas Harpoon
SAM - Rafael Barak I
Guns: 1 OTO Melara 3 in (76 mm) /62 Super Rapid
Torpedoes: 6 - 324 mm Whitehead B 515 (2 triple) tubes
Whitehead A 244S
Decoys: 2 Plessey Shield launchers
LEKIU CLASS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Country Of Origin: Malaysia
Designation: Frigate
Class: LEKIU
In Service: 2
Pennant Number
Ships Name
(30) LEKIU
(29) JEBAT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DIMENSIONS
Displacement: 2270.0 (Tons) (Fully Loaded)
Length: 105.5 (Metres)
Beam: 12.8 (Metres)
Draught: 3.6 (Metres)
Speed: 28 (Knots)
Range: 5000 (Miles)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DETECTION SYSTEMS
Radar System:
Air Search: Signaal DA 08
Surface: Ericcson Sea Giraffe 15OHC
Navigation: Racal I band
Fire Control: 2 Marconi 1802
Sonar System: Thomson Sintra Spherion (Hull Mounted)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ARMAMENT
Missiles: SSM - 8 Aerospatiale MM4O Exocet
SAM - British Aerospace VLS Seawolf
Guns: 1 Bofors 57 mm /70 SAK Mk2
2 MSI Defense Systems 30 mm DS 30B
Torpedoes: 6 Whitehead B 515 324 mm (2 triple) tubes
Decoys: 2 Super Barricade 12 barrelled launchers
Graseby Sea Siren torpedo decoy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AIRCRAFT
Helicopters: 1 Westland Wasp -
wow, u posted while i was still typing.....
... -
sorry bout thatOriginally posted by laser51088:wow, u posted while i was still typing.....
...
thought u weren't coming on anytime soon so...
anyway, like i said... bad comparison. wait for the lafayette... -
Guys! the RMAF is armed and equipped with several varieties of ASM Otomat blk 2 , exocet MM40 and harpoon.Non of us here will be able to tell which missile model will be deployed.
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RSN frigate class is called delta multirole frigate.Presently it is in production in Singapore Technology Shipyard.I convinced that this vessal will be as capable as Victory class corvette.
Can anyone provide me with information regarding this Frigate project.excluding Aster and exocet
Any information will be appreciated -
Some Info u want.Originally posted by Orcishwarrior:RSN frigate class is called delta multirole frigate.Presently it is in production in Singapore Technology Shipyard.I convinced that this vessal will be as capable as Victory class corvette.
Can anyone provide me with information regarding this Frigate project.excluding Aster and exocet
Any information will be appreciated
· The frigate design will be derive from DCNI’s Souverainete class light frigate design that offers compact yet heavily armed naval platform for a wide range of anti air, anti ship and anti sub missions in hostile and friendly environment, whether off shore or in territorial water.
· Overall length will be 110m, displacement 2600tonnes, max spd, 27.4 knots, range (at 15 knots) greater than 5000nm. 80 crew.
· Weapon fits likely to be MM-40 Exocet missile Blk 2 ASM in twin quad launcher, Aster15 V-launched SAM, OTOBreda’s 76/62 main gun, probably MDBA VSORADS missile mounts, Eurotorp’s twin triple tube torpedo launchers and twin 20mm machine gun.
· Also equip with SATRAP computerize, integrated stabilization system design to maintain stabilization within 0.5 degrees of horizontal, allowing shipborne helicopter to be operated at a sea state 5/6.
· Combat management system will be derive from THALES’ Senit 2000 design, featuring an open architecture interfacing with all weapons and sensor plus navigation and communication equipment. Senit will gathers, correlate, evaluate and display information from shipboard sensors while handling exchange with other units via tactical data links, including Link 11, 16 and 22
· Sensor fit will include optronic directors-cum-search and track systems for gunnery operations, hull-mounted panoramic active search and active towed array sensors, Arabel(Antenne Radar a Balayage Electronique) multi function 3-D radar with a range of 70 km and covering 900 azimuth and 750 in elevation, a Zebra Zenithal radar for coverage in a vertical cone 400 around the zenith against high diving missile and a navigation radar from Kelvin Hughes.
· Countermeasures suite include RAFAEL’s electronic warefare suite, twin chaff launchers (Maybe this one) and a radar warning receiver operating in D to K bands.
· The frigate will be driven by a CODAD (combine diesel and diesel) system made up of four SEMT-Pielstick 12 PA V280 STC(Sequential Turbo diesels each rated at 5200hp at 1050rpm with 2 shafts. -
wahoo.........
stats all over.....
heh....
i noe nuts abt the ships.... -
Thanks for the information given i appreciate it
There is something which i wish to know where did u obtain the information from.actually i read these in this mag called defence and diplomatic mag but after knowing it is a malaysian Mag company i start getting suspicion of the information.
For senit 2000,the possiblility of acquiring it is very high since this system is compact integrated and require less operating manpower
best of all it looks sophisticated i mean futuristic.
Regarding the main gun why must it be oto melara y not the france
main gun?? -
hello
Delta multirole frigate? Is Delta the RSN project name for it? Anyway there is also the naval helicopter program.
BTW why is there always the perception that the APV/PV quarterdeck can be installed with SAM systems It has been floating around for a long time but so far there hasnt been any evidence. -
i quote this paragraph out:
other ships to be equipped include the ltalian aircraft carrier Andrea
Doria(to be built by Fincantieri),the republic of singapore navy's Six
New project delta multi-role frigates and the royal saudi naval force
three F3000s frigate DCN Lorient is building under sawari 2 programme.
This about anti-missile launcher from Janes -
err... where did you get the info from? From what I know, the Frigates will be a modified lafayette frigate. Size will be 110 metres. Which I seriously doubt because of the fact that the weapons and combat suit has not been selected yet(Or has it). No one in the right mind will decide how big a ship to but and then squeeze the weapons on board. If the ship's kneel haven been laid yet. It is possible that there might be changes to its final size.Originally posted by Seant7:Some Info u want.
· The frigate design will be derive from DCNI’s Souverainete class light frigate design that offers compact yet heavily armed naval platform for a wide range of anti air, anti ship and anti sub missions in hostile and friendly environment, whether off shore or in territorial water.
· Overall length will be 110m, displacement 2600tonnes, max spd, 27.4 knots, range (at 15 knots) greater than 5000nm. 80 crew.
· Weapon fits likely to be MM-40 Exocet missile Blk 2 ASM in twin quad launcher, Aster15 V-launched SAM, OTOBreda’s 76/62 main gun, probably MDBA VSORADS missile mounts, Eurotorp’s twin triple tube torpedo launchers and twin 20mm machine gun.
· Also equip with SATRAP computerize, integrated stabilization system design to maintain stabilization within 0.5 degrees of horizontal, allowing shipborne helicopter to be operated at a sea state 5/6.
· Combat management system will be derive from THALES’ Senit 2000 design, featuring an open architecture interfacing with all weapons and sensor plus navigation and communication equipment. Senit will gathers, correlate, evaluate and display information from shipboard sensors while handling exchange with other units via tactical data links, including Link 11, 16 and 22
· Sensor fit will include optronic directors-cum-search and track systems for gunnery operations, hull-mounted panoramic active search and active towed array sensors, Arabel(Antenne Radar a Balayage Electronique) multi function 3-D radar with a range of 70 km and covering 900 azimuth and 750 in elevation, a Zebra Zenithal radar for coverage in a vertical cone 400 around the zenith against high diving missile and a navigation radar from Kelvin Hughes.
· Countermeasures suite include RAFAEL’s electronic warefare suite, twin chaff launchers (Maybe this one) and a radar warning receiver operating in D to K bands.
· The frigate will be driven by a CODAD (combine diesel and diesel) system made up of four SEMT-Pielstick 12 PA V280 STC(Sequential Turbo diesels each rated at 5200hp at 1050rpm with 2 shafts. -
i cant confirm all those Senit 2000 stuffs what i can confirm with u is that RSN is fitting Aster 15 missile into it that paragraph which quoted is directly from Janes defence weekly using Sylver launcherOriginally posted by Matlaysia:err... where did you get the info from? From what I know, the Frigates will be a modified lafayette frigate. Size will be 110 metres. Which I seriously doubt because of the fact that the weapons and combat suit has not been selected yet(Or has it). No one in the right mind will decide how big a ship to but and then squeeze the weapons on board. If the ship's kneel haven been laid yet. It is possible that there might be changes to its final size. -
Info was obtain from the ADJ year book 2000-2001pg 101 Tittle "Singapore's Frigate programme: First Details Emerge".Originally posted by Matlaysia:err... where did you get the info from? From what I know, the Frigates will be a modified lafayette frigate. Size will be 110 metres. Which I seriously doubt because of the fact that the weapons and combat suit has not been selected yet(Or has it). No one in the right mind will decide how big a ship to but and then squeeze the weapons on board. If the ship's kneel haven been laid yet. It is possible that there might be changes to its final size.
It was quoted "in view of the secrective of this project, like other millitary procurement project of Singapore, detail are hard to come by. However industry sources have indicate the following(which is what i have listed)". So my advise is to take it as a pinch of salt.
As for the vessel type, Souverainete class is a direct derivation of La Fayatte family of frigate.