How does SAF match up against other REGIONAL armed forces?
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Actually, the only exercise I heard about where a sub sank a US carrier after evading her escorts was a US/Australian naval exercise where a Collins sub sneaked past a Spurace class ASW destroyer and sank the carrier.Originally posted by laser51088:err, i don't doubt your info solaris, but err, which exercise was it that the SG sub 'sank' the carrier after evading its escorts?
sorry if i seem ignorant about this info. . ., but never heard it before -
Originally posted by solaris:
I read from somewhere (sorry forgot the source - could have been from the Kockum website) that an update to the combat system. Nothing was said about how extensive the update was, just a brief mention. The main stress was with the tropicalisation program.
1. Sjoormen class effectiveness
Even though the challenger class subs are old, they still serve a rather useful purpose and no one knew about the details and extent of the refit program the subs have undergone.
I don't think this is the case. The Sea Wolf crafts would have been much older than the 20 years. RSN has the "habit" of "passing down" the roles of the ships. The MCVs replaced the MGBs as the primary strike crafts. With the "La Fayatte" frigates, they will be used as the primary strike vessels (both surface and Air warfare). The MCVs will simply complement the "La Fayattes", albeit this also mean that RSN has essentially acquire green water to blue water capabilities. RSN is no longer a simple brown water navy.
2. Visby
It could be that the singapore - swedish program was actually to design a MCV replacement. It is plausible as the current known ORBAT has 12 missile craft. It is only logical that when the frigate program is completed, the time would ha ve come to consider the MCV replacements as the MCV would have been 20 years old already
My guess as to why the Visby options was dropped for the time being is because Sweden has yet commission even their first ship, and it is a well known policy that Mindef would not purchase any unproven technologies. Perhaps when the Swedish navy has operated the Visby for a couple of years then the RSN will purchase some.
For the new "La Fayatte" frigates, it was a well published information both from Janes and Flight International magazine that they would be armed with Aster 15 and MM40 Exocets. The French essentially are not going to provide any free integration of Barak or Harpoon and to give the carrot to RSN, they would have thrown in the whole thing dirt cheap in comparison to the similar weapons. I also won't be surprised that the frigates ended up with French integrated Combat Systems, Air-Surface search radars, Sonars, and fire-control radars.
3. NGFS and Frigate fit
I question the authenticity of the ADJ article. It is a malaysian publication and there is a distinct slant in their coverage towards the RMAF. Regarding the exocet mk2 fit, I am curious if true about the choice. It will make better sense from a logistical point of view to adopt a harpoon variant. The capabilities of the harpoon variants are not neccessarily inferior to the exocet. I am hoping for a minimum 100mm calibre on the frigate. Logistically it might make sense to adopt a common gun mount but then for the sake of improve capability, the logistic difficulties should be tolerated.
Even the choppers selection would most probably be an european design with French companies involvment. The two most likely candidates are NH-90 and EH-101 Merlin.
As for the gun mount, I really don't see the 100mm a good choice seriously. If RSN is serious of getting a large calibre gun, go for the United Defense, LP Mk45 Mod 4 gun. The mod 4 has a stealth mount and can fire the rounds further than the French 100mm. The extended range projectile can fly over 100km which makes it a good anti-surface weapon and a long range arty gun. If the fire control/ combat system is smart enuff, they could even down some planes before they can drop their PGMs. -
Personally. I don't think Sg will be getting Exocets - its hardware / frame / body isOriginally posted by Joe Black:For the new "La Fayatte" frigates, it was a well published information both from Janes and Flight International magazine that they would be armed with Aster 15 and MM40 Exocets.
OBSOLETE as it was based in the late 60s technologic.
As you all know Sg tend to use its equipment for a long time, see NO reason for Sg to buy the last generation technology.
Most likely , Sg may buying one of the following missiles:
1. Polyphem
2. NSM: Medium Range Anti-Ship Missile
3. ANF - (New Generation Anti-Ship Missile).
All the above missiles are start to come into service along the same time frame of RSN ships .
While for the new generation missiles to come into service, it will not be too surprising if the SG RENT some MM40 missiles from the French as interim weapon -
[sorry - double posting
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"My guess as to why the Visby options was dropped for the time being is because Sweden has yet commission even their first ship, and it is a well known policy that Mindef would not purchase any unproven technologies. Perhaps when the Swedish navy has operated the Visby for a couple of years then the RSN will purchase some."
Possible reason. But isn't the lafayette also unproven as it has yet to experience combat although it has already been in service for about 10 years? Also, despite its stealth capabilities, it does not seem well armed for its size. -
Well we are not looking at a "combat proven" stealth vessel but one that is in active service. The onboard sensors and weapon fire-control systems would have gone through live exercises and operations. Visby is still pretty much on the development and system testing phases and hasn't even achieved a initial operating capability, whereas the La Fayettes have served France for many years and have been sold to Taiwan and Saudi Arabia.Originally posted by Matlaysia:"My guess as to why the Visby options was dropped for the time being is because Sweden has yet commission even their first ship, and it is a well known policy that Mindef would not purchase any unproven technologies. Perhaps when the Swedish navy has operated the Visby for a couple of years then the RSN will purchase some."
Possible reason. But isn't the lafayette also unproven as it has yet to experience combat although it has already been in service for about 10 years? Also, despite its stealth capabilities, it does not seem well armed for its size.
As for weapon fit, it is pretty much on par with a typical frigate of its size, 8 SSM, 16 to 32 SAM, Chaff, Standard medium size gun, and possibly CIWS.
It also carry a 10 ton helo like most frigate of the same class. The only thing different is that La Fayatte is somewhat a little slower than other frigates in the same class. It can't make >30knots in speed. What a shame. However RSN version will be slightly faster due to the reduce in size and weight, but I doubt it can still travel above 30 knots though. -
guys!! my personal view more towards the platform of RSN future Delta frigates.As said earlier on(not by me), conspicious RSN tends put its surface ship in service for at least a decade or so,having/acquiring ship which has larger platform allows future upgrade and integration of latest technology.As for visby case
,it is looks for like a seal box floating/sail in the sea imagine if one day someone decided to open and place some stuff in he/she must unseal this box then reseal it back.Worse still there might not be enough space,if the new object is too large.
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Within the asia-pacific region, singapore's armed forces ranked second after australia...
the rest are no match in terms of technology and advance equipments.....
but then a war in singapore is the near future is unlikely *finger crossed* as the country herself has so much commercial value *think BIG money*....
country like iraqi is just so crappy that nobody will miss it if it is not in this planet....*dont flame me*
just my 2 cents.
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Originally posted by acid_pixel:
prior to the gulf war, everything was going well too... the Berlin wall has fallen, oil prices were o.k, the economy was doing just fine and even in the middle east, all was nice and chummy (except towards israel) ... kuwait was so pleased with everything that it refused to give in to iraqi pressure in OPEC to increase oil production.
but then a war in singapore is the near future is unlikely *finger crossed* as the country herself has so much commercial value *think BIG money*....
country like iraqi is just so crappy that nobody will miss it if it is not in this planet....*dont flame me*
just my 2 cents.
at that time, Saddam had one of the strongest military in the region and he thought he could get away with invading kuwait because kuwait was small, rich and full of arrogant, annoying, kuwaitis. nobody in the gulf wanted to have anything to do with them before they got invaded
exception? palestinian and philipino migrant workers because they paid well.
u see a very disturbing parallel here... the only difference is that we're stronger than the neighbours and we don't have a wacko living next door "yet". -
Singapore will not become a blue water navy by just acquiring LaFayettes. To be a blue water navy, I have always believed in Naval Aviation. Which means, the Surface task force must be able to have the means to project naval air-power. It must also be able to sail around with means of resupply without going back to port. Which means, we would have to acquire carriers. That itself is not out of the question, since we really are short on space. So acquiring carriers might be a solution to free up runway space. Maybe not a BIG one, but a small one that can hold up to 30 aircraft. Automated systems to minimise manpower required on the carriers, etc etc.
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but in the end...the expenses of keeping the carriers in good shape would be very high... so its not very likely that we will have carriers in the future..
anyway...carriers would have to be nuclear-powered dont they?.. thats 1 capability we dont have at the moment.. -
For a true blue water navy, the Lafayette being frigates are only considered minor combatants. If singapore is really keen in getting a blue water navy, it may be a better idea to get destroyers and modern submarines first. Hmm maybe DD-21 Zumawalt. Only needs 95 crew after all and perhaps the AIP powered U-214.Originally posted by kY|e-_-o:but in the end...the expenses of keeping the carriers in good shape would be very high... so its not very likely that we will have carriers in the future..
anyway...carriers would have to be nuclear-powered dont they?.. thats 1 capability we dont have at the moment.. -
the one thailand operates is not nuclear powered. small carriers are not nuclear powered cos they're not expected to fulfill the same role as the big-ass ones. i.e. stay out at sea and not see a friendly port for months at a time.Originally posted by kY|e-_-o:anyway...carriers would have to be nuclear-powered dont they?.. thats 1 capability we dont have at the moment..
but like u said, they're expensive and offensive in orientation. not likely that sg will buy one anytime soon. -
Depends on what asia pacific means. If it is SEA and Oceana then Yes RSN is 2nd behind RAN. However, If asia pacific is the whole of asia then. There will be china, taiwan, South Korea, Japan, India Pakistan and ....Originally posted by acid_pixel:Within the asia-pacific region, singapore's armed forces ranked second after australia...
the rest are no match in terms of technology and advance equipments.....
but then a war in singapore is the near future is unlikely *finger crossed* as the country herself has so much commercial value *think BIG money*....
country like iraqi is just so crappy that nobody will miss it if it is not in this planet....*dont flame me*
just my 2 cents. -
sorry to ask.
Is the french ship the onli stealth ship currently being officially stated to be aqquired or is there other NGPV designed by ST marines that is on the way? -
By your definition - ONLY countries have modern aircraft carriers (at least 30 aircraft per carrier) in the their fleet is consider to be a blue water navy -Originally posted by Shotgun:Singapore will not become a blue water navy by just acquiring LaFayettes. To be a blue water navy, I have always believed in Naval Aviation. Which means, the Surface task force must be able to have the means to project naval air-power. It must also be able to sail around with means of resupply without going back to port. Which means, we would have to acquire carriers. That itself is not out of the question, since we really are short on space. So acquiring carriers might be a solution to free up runway space. Maybe not a BIG one, but a small one that can hold up to 30 aircraft. Automated systems to minimise manpower required on the carriers, etc etc.
Well, Only TWO countries in world can fitted your definition - US & France - maybe UK.
So that why your definition of a blue - water navy is wrong.
Personally the a blue -water navy mean having capability of your navy deploying its ships out on a full time & long distance deployment in the oceans
The 6 frigates by itself to not make RSN a blue -water navy but it do give the Sg to have a long distance / longer time deployment capability.
But If Sg is to have a couple of supply / refilling ships that is a different story. -
I believe the French La Fayette frigates have superseded the NGPV. However, it doesn't mean RSN would not purchase a locally built stealth vessel.Originally posted by foxtrout8:sorry to ask.
Is the french ship the onli stealth ship currently being officially stated to be aqquired or is there other NGPV designed by ST marines that is on the way?
At least I believe RSN hasn't shown any indication that it has ordered anymore vessels other than the 6 from France. It is possible that after gaining some experience in the La Fayatte ships, ST Marine might refine the design and RSN will refine their requirements. We might see more new and interesting ships.
BTW, it seems that the Endurance class will be quite heavily armed compared to other LSD in the world. I believe RSN might use as "motherships" to other smaller vessels and/or in a more offensive amphibious assault role.
Lastly, RSN doesn't necessary need to have a carrier, but a LPD like the Italian SAN GIORGIO class will do.
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I believe the French La Fayette frigates have superseded the NGPV. However, it doesn't mean RSN would not purchase a locally built stealth vessel.Originally posted by foxtrout8:sorry to ask.
Is the french ship the onli stealth ship currently being officially stated to be aqquired or is there other NGPV designed by ST marines that is on the way?
At least I believe RSN hasn't shown any indication that it has ordered anymore vessels other than the 6 from France. It is possible that after gaining some experience in the La Fayatte ships, ST Marine might refine the design and RSN will refine their requirements. We might see more new and interesting ships.
BTW, it seems that the Endurance class will be quite heavily armed compared to other LSD in the world. I believe RSN might use as "motherships" to other smaller vessels and/or in a more offensive amphibious assault role.
Lastly, RSN doesn't necessary need to have a carrier, but a LPD like the Italian SAN GIORGIO class will do. -
MatlaysiaOriginally posted by Matlaysia:Depends on what asia pacific means. If it is SEA and Oceana then Yes RSN is 2nd behind RAN. However, If asia pacific is the whole of asia then. There will be china, taiwan, South Korea, Japan, India Pakistan and ....
Sg Armed Forces is rated behind Aust. despite SAF is more
advance in technology deployment but Aust. Armed Forces has the superior nos.
At any distance say over 1000 km., the Thai navy have better naval deployment capabilities than RSN
So you cannot say that RSN is 2nd. best in this part world by itself.
But in a showdown in South China Sea (within air cover) - RSN with RSAF will give a good greasing to the Thais.
For now, RSN is best & capable up to several hundreds ? km range (within the RSAF air cover ) from SG proper
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Further La Fayatte news....
It seems like RSN has selected the Towed array sonar for the La Fayettes...
Got this extracts from the US Navy News website (July 2001)
"U.S. underwater specialist EDO confirmed that it has sold its new Advanced Low Frequency Towed Sonar (ALOFTS) to the RSN. This active sonar is destined for installation on the RSN's six modified LaFayette-type "corvettes" being built by ST Marine, and is expected to significantly improve the RSN's ability to detect and track quiet diesel-electric submarines."
http://www.navyleague.org/seapower_mag/july2001/sea_power_international.htm -
Thomast !! "several hundred Km under RSAF air cover" RSAF is able to cover much more than just hundreds,its by the 4 digits rather than 3 digits with KC-135 midair-refuel or perhaps by its own.RSAF fighter jets are build to be able to travel a long distances to conduct air strike missions.I heard that over fighter jets actually can strike any part of malaysia mainland up to the southern thailand
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Thomast !! "several hundred Km under RSAF air cover" RSAF is able to cover much more than just hundreds,its by the 4 digits rather than 3 digits with KC-135 midair-refuel or perhaps by its own.RSAF fighter jets are build to be able to travel a long distances to conduct air strike missions.I heard that over fighter jets actually can strike any part of malaysia mainland up to the southern thailand
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Thomast !! "several hundred Km under RSAF air cover" RSAF is able to cover much more than just hundreds,its by the 4 digits rather than 3 digits with KC-135 midair-refuel or perhaps by its own.RSAF fighter jets are build to be able to travel a long distances to conduct air strike missions.I heard that over fighter jets actually can strike any part of malaysia mainland up to the southern thailand
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Originally posted by Orcishwarrior:Thomast !! "several hundred Km under RSAF air cover" RSAF is able to cover much more than just hundreds,its by the 4 digits rather than 3 digits with KC-135 midair-refuel or perhaps by its own.RSAF fighter jets are build to be able to travel a long distances to conduct air strike missions.I heard that over fighter jets actually can strike any part of malaysia mainland up to the southern thailand
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My Dear Orcishwarrior,
Yes, RSAF can attack Bangkok / Manila etc but providing an air cover for RSN ships is totally different ball game.
Let me try to explain to you in as simple as I can. -
Air Cover - mean RSAF providing air -defense / air superiority coverage on real time basic. -
Originally posted by thomasct:
Thomast ! pls further elaborate your phrase above
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Yes, RSAF can attack Bangkok / Manila etc but providing an air cover for RSN ships is totally different ball game.
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why iRSAF fighter jets with the ability conducting strike on target which is more than thousand KM from singapore mainland cant provide air cover for RSN.
Correct me if it is my mistake Present Naval combatant ship has the ability to defence itself against incomin air threats with Surface to air missiles which are integrated into all naval warship around the world these days.Future Aircraft carrier primary role basically acts as temporary aircraft base for refueling ,reload and repair
for hostile deep inland strike,this way it minimise attack by enemy ground units.For your info,the role of 21st century aircraft carrier have been change 180 degree from its WW2 role