How does SAF match up against other REGIONAL armed forces?
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however..from my own point of view...
apart from aquiring those 6 sophisticated frigates and a couple other stuffs...theres still 1 thing we had sorely overlooked..
that is we need to have a BETTER TORPEDO!!!!!!!
the whitehead torpedo have been around with RSN for decades!!......a 35knot torpedo isnt realli gonna work well against speedier ships nowadays... we need wire guidance and other stuffs!
the MK-46 ADCAP torpedo is quite a good one...for example.. -
Anyway we dont need an underwater missile like Mk 46,since in SEA region presently only vietnam,indonasia and singapore own submarines.These sub excluding singapore now pose virtually no immediate threat to singapore naval fleet.
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We cannot afford to compromise on this. Malaysia will be getting subs, and the situation will change drastically in the next decade. "No immediate threat" does not mean much to me. The keyword there is "Threat". it simply means they ARE a threat. If Indonesia is not a threat, then I don't know what is. Malaysia is not our only potential aggressor mind you. I support the need for a newer torpedo.Originally posted by Orcishwarrior:Anyway we dont need an underwater missile like Mk 46,since in SEA region presently only vietnam,indonasia and singapore own submarines.These sub excluding singapore now pose virtually no immediate threat to singapore naval fleet. -
personally, I support the need for a better torpedo, the A244S range is only about 7km, and its speed is about 35 knots, which is not really enough. . .i think Singapore should start shopping for better toprs BEFORE those M'sia Scorpenes come along. . ., and I was just wondering, what does RSN's subs carry? if it is just those toprs, can the Harpoon be launched from it using a capsule? else they will be pretty redundant 'cos M'sia has better and more capable subs and regional countries have mostly surface warships while the A244S is solely for Anti-sub if i'm not wrong. . .
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If you read carefully. You will understand that Australia is not the best in Asia. Hence there is no way singapore can be the 2nd best asia for now.Originally posted by thomasct:Matlaysia
Sg Armed Forces is rated behind Aust. despite SAF is more
advance in technology deployment but Aust. Armed Forces has the superior nos.
At any distance say over 1000 km., the Thai navy have better naval deployment capabilities than RSN
So you cannot say that RSN is 2nd. best in this part world by itself.
But in a showdown in South China Sea (within air cover) - RSN with RSAF will give a good greasing to the Thais.
For now, RSN is best & capable up to several hundreds ? km range (within the RSAF air cover ) from SG proper
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Australia is a continent by itself.So, you can't copare it with other asian countries.Originally posted by Matlaysia:If you read carefully. You will understand that Australia is not the best in Asia. Hence there is no way singapore can be the 2nd best asia for now. -
Originally posted by thomasct:
I agree on your point. And it was my point exactly. To have a blue water navy, means your fleet/squadron is able to make long range deployments. However, being able to make long range deployment withou air cover can only spell trouble. Usually being couple hundred tonnes of sinking metal. The Royal Navy had so to speak a blue water navy back in 1940s. The Prince of Wales and Repulse was part of it, and unfortunately for the "escorting" carrier, the carrier was left behind due to problems. The blue water navy died the moment the carrier was left behind, resulting in Japanese torpedo wakes trailing to the site of the 2 sunken battleships.
[b]By your definition - ONLY countries have modern aircraft carriers (at least 30 aircraft per carrier) in the their fleet is consider to be a blue water navy -
Well, Only TWO countries in world can fitted your definition - US & France - maybe UK.
So that why your definition of a blue - water navy is wrong.
Personally the a blue -water navy mean having capability of your navy deploying its ships out on a full time & long distance deployment in the oceans
The 6 frigates by itself to not make RSN a blue -water navy but it do give the Sg to have a long distance / longer time deployment capability.
But If Sg is to have a couple of supply / refilling ships that is a different story. [/b]
In RSN's case, the frigates may give a little more deployment range, but what use is this without air cover? Or Naval aircover in this case, if the deployment is too far away from any of our bases? Hence you are right that currently only 3 countries have blue water navy. UK, US and France. China is on its way to acquiring one as soon as their carrier is completed and pilots trained.
And with the above said, my definition of a Blue water navy, is NOT, technically, wrong. -
lets picture a scenario...
in some circumstances...lets say if our sub launched a whitehead torp at an enemy sub...if the enemy sub is already above 10 knots and have a quite considerable distance between the torp...
the enemy sub can simply increase to flank speed and outrun that torp until the torp simple runs out of fuel and harmlessly sink to the bottom of the drink..
so...i would say investing in a faster and better guidance torpedo like the MK-46 ADCAP would be an investment well worth it...
i would like the see how those twinks outrun a 60 something knot torp... -
Err. are you talking about mark 46 or mark 50.Originally posted by kY|e-_-o:lets picture a scenario...
in some circumstances...lets say if our sub launched a whitehead torp at an enemy sub...if the enemy sub is already above 10 knots and have a quite considerable distance between the torp...
the enemy sub can simply increase to flank speed and outrun that torp until the torp simple runs out of fuel and harmlessly sink to the bottom of the drink..
so...i would say investing in a faster and better guidance torpedo like the MK-46 ADCAP would be an investment well worth it...
i would like the see how those twinks outrun a 60 something knot torp... -
Alternate Torpedoes could be the European MU90 Torpedoes.Originally posted by kY|e-_-o:so...i would say investing in a faster and better guidance torpedo like the MK-46 ADCAP would be an investment well worth it...
i would like the see how those twinks outrun a 60 something knot torp...
MU90 TORPEDO MAIN DYNAMIC FEATURES
Minimum speed: 29Kts
Maximum speed: >50Kts
Speed change step: 1Kts
Max to Min Speed change time: 3 seconds
Range: 12,000m at maximum speed, 25,000m at min. speed
MU90 TORPEDO MAIN ACOUSTIC FEATURES
Operational bands: 6
Operational bandwidth: >>10KHz
Acoustic coverage: 120°H x 70°V
Max. Active detection Range: >2500m
Echo sounding navigation: yes
Simultaneous targets: up to 10
and the torpedo was joint developed by WHITEHEAD ALENIA Sistemi Subacquei (Italy) and DCN International (France) and THALES (France). I believe this is the best for RSN since I'm pretty sure Whitehead will ensure that all the 323mm torpedo tubes that fire the A244S torpedoes will also be able to fire this new EuroTorp, and DCN International will also ensure that the new RSN La Fayettes will also be able to use this
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MK-46 ADCAP...basically any torpedo that is better then the whitehead..Originally posted by Matlaysia:Err. are you talking about mark 46 or mark 50. -
would be better if the sjoormen class could use them...cos sjoormen isnt realli a quiet SSK... compared to scorpene....Originally posted by Joe Black:and the torpedo was joint developed by WHITEHEAD ALENIA Sistemi Subacquei (Italy) and DCN International (France) and THALES (France). I believe this is the best for RSN since I'm pretty sure Whitehead will ensure that all the 323mm torpedo tubes that fire the A244S torpedoes will also be able to fire this new EuroTorp, and DCN International will also ensure that the new RSN La Fayettes will also be able to use this
so we should have a better torp...with wire guidance.. -
Can't do... because all these are lightweight Torps. The main 4 tubes are 533mm and would need heavy torps like the Mk48. Of course MK 48 is not suitable because they are too heavy and are more suitable for deeper sea and colder water. RSN is best to purchase the heavy weight from Whitehead heavy weight (A184 or "Blackshark" because Italia's surrounding waters (the Mediterranean) are more like the South China sea.Originally posted by kY|e-_-o:would be better if the sjoormen class could use them...cos sjoormen isnt realli a quiet SSK... compared to scorpene....
so we should have a better torp...with wire guidance.. -
anyway..i just want to make known my point that the RSN is really in need of a new torpedo to counter the scorpene class...
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Hey guys ! singapore's Ex-sjoormen submarines are primarily for training purpose,it is just unsuitable to counter Scorpene submarine
.Since it's for training,a sophisticated heavyweight torp is relatively unnecessary.
I believe RSN Future frigates will be armed with Advanced ASW equipment or technology opposing to RMN scorpene class submarine.This is for sure
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The other alternative is to counter RMN submarines by acquiring true attack-purpose submarines equipped with state-of-art sonar and torp.Example maybe swedish SSK Gotland or German 212 type submarines.
Any better idea!!!!
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how bout a seawolf class SSN?..hehe juz kidding..
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Nah, a Gotland class would be better. And perhaps armed with British Spearfish torps. 60knot killer. Out run this..... sucker. =)
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Oh, did I mention a 200knot underwater rocket? Yes, its Russian, and its called a Shvkal. Perfect for shallow water operations, no where to turn, no place to dive.
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integration might be a problem... no?Originally posted by Shotgun:Oh, did I mention a 200knot underwater rocket? Yes, its Russian, and its called a Shvkal. Perfect for shallow water operations, no where to turn, no place to dive.
it does sound like a promising platform... -
Shvkal nah !!! yes the world fastest torp and was once feared by the west during the Soviet Union Reign.
Getting this machine into southeast asia will only start regional arm race especially between singapore and malaysia.In fact,a small scale arm race has already begun....but both side refuse to admire that there is an arm race going on.
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go here for info on the shkval
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/shkval.htm
its a very promising platform and can be fired from a normal 533mm torp tube.
promises rapid retribution within seconds of an enemy vessel's launch.
too bad its unguided and uses its own onboard computer program to reach its target... no homing warhead. basically a "dumb" weapon, but in that time frame (a few seconds), it would take a very brave sub commander to try and play chicken with that weapon closing rapidly in his general direction.
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The Shvkal II is guided. How the hell, beats me. My best guess is with another external guided active sonar source, like a UUV.
In anycase, with 200knots and close proximity of regional water, you don't really have to be guided to sink another sub. Given a sufficiently large warhead, u can probably sink 2 submarines by exploding between them.
The russians were experimenting with nuclear tipped shvkal, that could be launched from 60 miles away to sink carrier battle groups. Still no news about that as yet. -
i thought the nuke-tipped one was the old version? the modernised export version, Shvkal-E unveiled at abu dhabi in 1999 is conventionally armed.Originally posted by Shotgun:The russians were experimenting with nuclear tipped shvkal, that could be launched from 60 miles away to sink carrier battle groups. Still no news about that as yet.
from the way it looks, a conventional warhead of that size is not particularly large... and it takes a bunch of very stupid sub commanders to wanna orgy in a big group! nobody does that
and i've always found nuclear weapons repulsive and a gross over-kill. who the hell is going to introduce THAT capability into SE Asia...
there's gonna be a lot of very scared naval commanders if this weapon ever gets into this region... -
btw...the shkval torpedo was the one that killed the Kursk..
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the kursk illustrates the fact that the navy of the former soviet union is falling apart.
i believe the weapon platform itself is stable but the entire navy suffers from insufficient funding, substandard maintenance and demoralised crew who doesn't even receive proper paychecks!
u try running a navy with all those factors working against u
the shkval alone didn't "cause" the incident... much of the russian fleet is an accident waiting to happen because there's not enough money to allow it to operate safely.
but its not as if Sg is buying it and a sjoormen is gonna blow up next because of it... i just think its an interesting technology, sufficiently advance for RSN to maintain an edge over the rest.
why take baby steps when a technological leap is readily available? a sub armed with a combination of wire guided torpedos for normal engagements and rocket propelled ones for retaliation, forcing the other sub to take evasive actions and snap the wire of its torpedo would make a very strong combination.