Singapore Is No Role Model
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Don't you think that PAP is trying to help people now with Lee Hsien Loong being the Prime Minister instead of the former Goh Chok Tong and Lee Kuan Yew? After Lee Hsien Loong started his term, alot of happenings have been around, such as the Progress Package which was implemented by him himself, more and such. And one more thing, most people who founded the Singapore government in the mid 1900s were from other countries like Malaysia and etc.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:You do realise that the Citizens supposedly elected this govt, despite the fact that the only 66% of the people vote? Just how did this Govt come about in the first place? Just where did the people in the civil service, a bungling bunch of fools the people at the top are, come from?
No, I never asked you to care about whether or not I am allergic to stupidity. The point of the problem is that, as Atobe has said, is that you confuse political loyalty with loyalty to country. A country's reputation is how the people make it. If they don't care, well, that's their business.
And you are not being clear here but rather very emotional in your dwelling in patriotism, revealing the time honored fear of many Singaporeans when they realise they are actually Emperors with no clothes. A price will be paid for every action, just as a price will be paid when citizens in their country do not so much as whimper when their Govt abuse its powers for its own ends. There will always a price to be paid. A country that lives in denial thinking that safety is the most important will nonetheless stagnate eventually. Tell people to "Get out of Singapore" is merely a symptom of a larger problem that happens in Singapore; that inferiority complex fostered upon the population by a Govt that constantly blares out the weakness of Singapore to justify some silly policy. The result is a lack of can-do spirit that is dead as a dog as it is.
Read what he said, he was referring to YOU. And not me, unless he was referring it to me, he was referring to YOU, that you are confusing political loyalty with loyalty to country. If you think that's how a country makes it, why aren't most countries successful in their reputation like not being supportive with the president/prime minister and riots going on? Its already a miracle that Singapore's reputation is quite good in the eyes of the world out there.
Our government may be using their powers for their own will but don't you think picking on the Singaporean citizens are bad? Do you think they are taught the Singapore's reputation by their teachers? No, right? If they were taught, they will support the government. But no, they did not learn that, so now you see that most residents of Singapore are very ignorant about Singapore's reputation and one more thing, the residents are innocent, they did not do anything wrong. A country which might be safe now may not mean that they will be safe in the future. That I agree. But do you think a country which is dangerous now will be dangerous in the future? Hardly, it will take years and years for it to become safe. Saying "Get out of Singapore" is a habit of a average Singaporean. It was never taught by the Government. But I have to agree with one thing, a true Government is a office where the people and the residents of a country are true to one another and cares about their reputation. But "Get out of Singapore" is a habit, you can't reteach them, if not, why do you think Singapore has their own unique language: Singlish? Some other countries have their unique language too. You think the government can reteach their spirit? They can reteach themselves, when they feel like its time to do it themselves. Who says that the Government have a say about it? Other countries can't even have a say about its residents.
I'll say that if ever our Singapore's reputation goes down, PAP goes down, Chee Siok Chin/Chee Soon Juan take over Singapore, nothing where Sylvia Lim/Low Thia Khiang can do. Not even Chiam See Tong can do anything about it. And there will be the 85% that will not support the reign of these two. -
Firstly, as Anti PAP as I am, I do not think Chee is PM or cabinet material, maybe MP. But thats not the point. Many people fear that supporting the actions of Chee (not the SDP directly) will bring about the fall of the Government. Not going to happen folks. Its trying to vote out the incumbent who have engineered elections to give themselves maximum advantage.
But if reforms were to happen via the ballot box, it will happen in phases.
1. Opposition gains 1 or 2 GRCs (very possible next GE)
If the Opposition prove cabable enough.. then
2. PAP has less than 66% seats but more than 51% (probable GE after next)
This is the tipping point. This is when PAP really get a run for their money. All parties have an opportunity to prove to the people that they deserve to be in charge. Any party has to get thru this phase first, even before we start talking about SDP being in charge. So SDP in charge is not in danger of happening, not in the near future, but I would personally like to see political reforms in terms in individual rights in Singapore, which is part of what the SDP is propagating. That the Singapore Govt is supressing the voices of the people who disagree with the govt. -
It's so tiring looking at both the MIW and opposition and deciding what to do or what to think....
Sillypore society is just so superficial....altho I'm no fan of MIW...I do think they will still be aroudn for a long time...and the best thing we can do is take care of our own lives and livelihood....as many of us have found out...best solution is to move out of here and live elsewhere....may not be perfect elsewhere...at least we don't feel claustrophobic, CTE jams, and lack of space. We have mountains and lakes, no NS and we can draw out all our CPF...who knows what restrictions they will put on CPF...better scoot now with all our CPF... -
I'll clarify my position then. A Govt is a product of its citizens and its failings is also a product of the culture's failings. It is not so simple to distinguish the failings of a Govt from its citizens. Nazi Germany did not come about because it came out of no where. It came because people supported it wholesomely and cheered as they went to war. Loyalty to a country whose citizens willing stand by and do not question the Govt's actions and even if they do so but not stop the Govt, the blame rests firmly on its citizens who do not use their brains to think, becomes meaningless. Do not forget that the Govt is staffed by its own citizens and not by foreigners, though some used to be in our case. One might be loyal to only its country yes, but ultimately, it is the duty of the citizenry to think and do something about it. If they don't do a thing about it, but do nothing, what is the difference between loyalty to one's country and his Govt?Originally posted by BusSpeeder:Don't you think that PAP is trying to help people now with Lee Hsien Loong being the Prime Minister instead of the former Goh Chok Tong and Lee Kuan Yew? After Lee Hsien Loong started his term, alot of happenings have been around, such as the Progress Package which was implemented by him himself, more and such. And one more thing, most people who founded the Singapore government in the mid 1900s were from other countries like Malaysia and etc.
Read what he said, he was referring to YOU. And not me, unless he was referring it to me, he was referring to YOU, that you are confusing political loyalty with loyalty to country. If you think that's how a country makes it, why aren't most countries successful in their reputation like not being supportive with the president/prime minister and riots going on? Its already a miracle that Singapore's reputation is quite good in the eyes of the world out there.
Our government may be using their powers for their own will but don't you think picking on the Singaporean citizens are bad? Do you think they are taught the Singapore's reputation by their teachers? No, right? If they were taught, they will support the government. But no, they did not learn that, so now you see that most residents of Singapore are very ignorant about Singapore's reputation and one more thing, the residents are innocent, they did not do anything wrong. A country which might be safe now may not mean that they will be safe in the future. That I agree. But do you think a country which is dangerous now will be dangerous in the future? Hardly, it will take years and years for it to become safe. Saying "Get out of Singapore" is a habit of a average Singaporean. It was never taught by the Government. But I have to agree with one thing, a true Government is a office where the people and the residents of a country are true to one another and cares about their reputation. But "Get out of Singapore" is a habit, you can't reteach them, if not, why do you think Singapore has their own unique language: Singlish? Some other countries have their unique language too. You think the government can reteach their spirit? They can reteach themselves, when they feel like its time to do it themselves. Who says that the Government have a say about it? Other countries can't even have a say about its residents.
I'll say that if ever our Singapore's reputation goes down, PAP goes down, Chee Siok Chin/Chee Soon Juan take over Singapore, nothing where Sylvia Lim/Low Thia Khiang can do. Not even Chiam See Tong can do anything about it. And there will be the 85% that will not support the reign of these two.
And sadly, as you say, Singaporeans have to relearn their own freedom. But i doubt it would happen unless something seismic in SIngapore happens. By then, reputation is the last thing on our list to care about.
And by the way, the Govt has given some progress package before years ago under GCK. This isn't the first time Govt doled one of these packages out. And if the Govt were doing something for its citizens, it would have done more than what it is doing right now, profiting from the citizens' monies. -
War, not necessary, can lead to freedom, but in a way, war can tear families and friends apart, destroy buildings, etc.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:I'll clarify my position then. A Govt is a product of its citizens and its failings is also a product of the culture's failings. It is not so simple to distinguish the failings of a Govt from its citizens. Nazi Germany did not come about because it came out of no where. It came because people supported it wholesomely and cheered as they went to war. Loyalty to a country whose citizens willing stand by and do not question the Govt's actions and even if they do so but not stop the Govt, the blame rests firmly on its citizens who do not use their brains to think, becomes meaningless. Do not forget that the Govt is staffed by its own citizens and not by foreigners, though some used to be in our case. One might be loyal to only its country yes, but ultimately, it is the duty of the citizenry to think and do something about it. If they don't do a thing about it, but do nothing, what is the difference between loyalty to one's country and his Govt?
And sadly, as you say, Singaporeans have to relearn their own freedom. But i doubt it would happen unless something seismic in SIngapore happens. By then, reputation is the last thing on our list to care about.
And by the way, the Govt has given some progress package before years ago under GCK. This isn't the first time Govt doled one of these packages out. And if the Govt were doing something for its citizens, it would have done more than what it is doing right now, profiting from the citizens' monies.
By what you are saying, you are meaning that a country's citizens should NOT be willing to stand by, question the government's action, use their brain to think of the consequences then stop the government?
There are most adults who are in their 40s-80s who did not receive education. How do you expect them to know the meaning of reputation? -
Ya right,and u are the kind of Singaporeans who make PAP wins in the election over n over again despite we know that it sucks like hell.Give u a little sweets only,u happy until who beat u up in the past also forget.Man,u this kind of sh!t make ppl feel sad for Singapore.Sgdiehard?You might as well change name to Sgdieeasily.Originally posted by sgdiehard:
no wonder SDP is not going anyway. Even the Taiwanese themselves, KMT or PDP, are not so proud of their 'vibrant' democracy. Taiwanese in China are proud of themselves in every other areas except democracy, and never advocate that kind of democracy for China. Now SDP in Singapore is quietly admiring that.
SDP is the bloody reason why oppositions in Singapore, as a whole, are losing credibility.
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Truth is truth,what is there to hide of?Ppl from all around the world know that Singapore is a "Police state" n a dictatorial country.You think by keeping mute or by shouting 50 times to the world that we are not such country,other ppl will believe you?Or better still,like our PAP government act like an Orstrach,advertise in the newspaper saying how pretty n wonderful is our country n hope that their lies can convert to truth.Dreaming.....Originally posted by the Bear:no.. it's a matter of pride...
if the truth is that your brother sodomises goats, do you go around telling people he sodomises goats?
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Actually Lee Kuan Yew is dreaming that his form of government can be implemented around the world.I can tell Harry Lee right in his Fuking eyes:No Way!!!
Even Ma Ying Jeou become(and i believe he will become)Taiwan President,Taiwan will not go back to one party dominating situation.Taiwanese have taste what is democracy,they wont go back to the black old days just like Singapore n mainland China now.
Lee KUan Yew is hoping that Ma Ying Jeou will turn Taiwan into a one party dominating situation just like what Jiang family did.So that he can have another dictators friend.What can i say,Lee Kuan Yew,This Fuking old man is dreaming again. -
here we go again, Mr. White Pric.k Sucker from Pussieland.Originally posted by Coquitlam:It's so tiring looking at both the MIW and opposition and deciding what to do or what to think....
Sillypore society is just so superficial....altho I'm no fan of MIW...I do think they will still be aroudn for a long time...and the best thing we can do is take care of our own lives and livelihood....as many of us have found out...best solution is to move out of here and live elsewhere....may not be perfect elsewhere...at least we don't feel claustrophobic, CTE jams, and lack of space. We have mountains and lakes, no NS and we can draw out all our CPF...who knows what restrictions they will put on CPF...better scoot now with all our CPF... -
"As you have noted, Singaporean ministers are highly paid. The prime minister of Singapore is paid 12 times what Taiwan's president earns. Even the salary of a junior minister here is more than seven times that of President Chen Shui-bian (’Â�…�G). There is a difference between pragmatism and avarice. I am afraid you have mixed the two up. Perhaps this explains why consensus is reached easily in the government. When money talks, consciences keep silent"
I personally think it is kind of dumb for her to say such a thing because it will indirectly insult the Taiwanese that their politicians are poorly paid and highly corrupted. -
Actually, it only implies that our ministers are very well paid, in relation to the Taiwan officials, which builds up to her point of our ministers being kept compliant with money.
I don't read anything about corruption from that paragraph.
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Not only that I think.... Chee Siok Chin is more likely to did it purposely to put how much our ministers are paid so that the Taiwanese can see that Singapore is a very rich country. I would say that she delibrately did that to show others that Singapore is not that good in the many eyes of the world. After all, alot of people gave good comments about Singapore anyway.Originally posted by Gazelle:"As you have noted, Singaporean ministers are highly paid. The prime minister of Singapore is paid 12 times what Taiwan's president earns. Even the salary of a junior minister here is more than seven times that of President Chen Shui-bian (’Â�…�G). There is a difference between pragmatism and avarice. I am afraid you have mixed the two up. Perhaps this explains why consensus is reached easily in the government. When money talks, consciences keep silent"
I personally think it is kind of dumb for her to say such a thing because it will indirectly insult the Taiwanese that their politicians are poorly paid and highly corrupted. -
Obviously no one in taiwan will believe that their politicians, especially Ah Bian, is only earning what is stated officially, as such such statement will natually make taiwanese quess and wonder how much their politicians are actually making "unofficially".Originally posted by Jontst78:Actually, it only implies that our ministers are very well paid, in relation to the Taiwan officials, which builds up to her point of our ministers being kept compliant with money.
I don't read anything about corruption from that paragraph.
Suppose if the junior minister is making $1m per year, can Ah Bian, be making only $175,000 salary per year?? -
I am siding her. Loyalty, you mean loyalty to PAP? Loyalty to Singapore is a different issue, it should be left out when talking about the letter she wrote to Taipei. Anyone who is sensible knows she is talking all about the ruling party and not bringing down the reputation of Singapore. If you wanna talk about bringing down the reputation of Singapore, what have the ruling party done not to bring down the reputation of Singapore?Originally posted by BusSpeeder:agreed. chee siok chin is just trying to bring down the reputation of PAP. When PAP goes down(unlikely to happen), news will spread across the media, don't she will think that Singapore's reputation goes down? she doesn't care that? if she don't means she's not loyal to singapore. -
Well said!!!!Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:You do realise that by your reasoning, if a company has committed a crime, and you fail to report it to the relevant authorities, you are an accomplice to that crime?
By the same token, if you know something is wrong, but you don't do anything about it, aren't you giving your silent voice of approval to something?
At least some people are trying to spread the word around trying to get people educated, but some decide to act as children and dislike being scolded when they are in the wrong. What happens then? Let the fire continue to burn out of pride? Is pride so important that you would happily let the forest burn and you in it?
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oh yes, so you hail lee hsien loong. Oh long live lee hsien loong to you and believe you are very happy that he increased the GST, giving himself super high pay, approve so many FTs working in Singapore without quota and so on!!! May you also give yourself super high pay like what he did!!!Originally posted by BusSpeeder:Don't you think that PAP is trying to help people now with Lee Hsien Loong being the Prime Minister instead of the former Goh Chok Tong and Lee Kuan Yew? After Lee Hsien Loong started his term, alot of happenings have been around, such as the Progress Package which was implemented by him himself, more and such. And one more thing, most people who founded the Singapore government in the mid 1900s were from other countries like Malaysia and etc.
Read what he said, he was referring to YOU. And not me, unless he was referring it to me, he was referring to YOU, that you are confusing political loyalty with loyalty to country. If you think that's how a country makes it, why aren't most countries successful in their reputation like not being supportive with the president/prime minister and riots going on? Its already a miracle that Singapore's reputation is quite good in the eyes of the world out there.
Our government may be using their powers for their own will but don't you think picking on the Singaporean citizens are bad? Do you think they are taught the Singapore's reputation by their teachers? No, right? If they were taught, they will support the government. But no, they did not learn that, so now you see that most residents of Singapore are very ignorant about Singapore's reputation and one more thing, the residents are innocent, they did not do anything wrong. A country which might be safe now may not mean that they will be safe in the future. That I agree. But do you think a country which is dangerous now will be dangerous in the future? Hardly, it will take years and years for it to become safe. Saying "Get out of Singapore" is a habit of a average Singaporean. It was never taught by the Government. But I have to agree with one thing, a true Government is a office where the people and the residents of a country are true to one another and cares about their reputation. But "Get out of Singapore" is a habit, you can't reteach them, if not, why do you think Singapore has their own unique language: Singlish? Some other countries have their unique language too. You think the government can reteach their spirit? They can reteach themselves, when they feel like its time to do it themselves. Who says that the Government have a say about it? Other countries can't even have a say about its residents.
I'll say that if ever our Singapore's reputation goes down, PAP goes down, Chee Siok Chin/Chee Soon Juan take over Singapore, nothing where Sylvia Lim/Low Thia Khiang can do. Not even Chiam See Tong can do anything about it. And there will be the 85% that will not support the reign of these two. -
Originally posted by Jontst78:Firstly, as Anti PAP as I am, I do not think Chee is PM or cabinet material, maybe MP. But thats not the point. Many people fear that supporting the actions of Chee (not the SDP directly) will bring about the fall of the Government. Not going to happen folks. Its trying to vote out the incumbent who have engineered elections to give themselves maximum advantage.
But if reforms were to happen via the ballot box, it will happen in phases.
1. Opposition gains 1 or 2 GRCs (very possible next GE)
If the Opposition prove cabable enough.. then
2. PAP has less than 66% seats but more than 51% (probable GE after next)
This is the tipping point. This is when PAP really get a run for their money. All parties have an opportunity to prove to the people that they deserve to be in charge. Any party has to get thru this phase first, even before we start talking about SDP being in charge. So SDP in charge is not in danger of happening, not in the near future, but I would personally like to see political reforms in terms in individual rights in Singapore, which is part of what the SDP is propagating. That the Singapore Govt is supressing the voices of the people who disagree with the govt. -
i'll say "long live lee hsien loong" then i'll say "make gst go down to 1.5%"Originally posted by rane:oh yes, so you hail lee hsien loong. Oh long live lee hsien loong to you and believe you are very happy that he increased the GST, giving himself super high pay, approve so many FTs working in Singapore without quota and so on!!! May you also give yourself super high pay like what he did!!! -
True of what u said above. Even if chee sok ching did not write such a letter to taipei times, western media long long time ago have been writing about the political scene in Singapore. They will not stop doing so and will continue to watch over the political scene here. hip hip hooray to the western media!! Simply love to read what they write about the political scene in Singapore and the ruling party!!Originally posted by drawer:Truth is truth,what is there to hide of?Ppl from all around the world know that Singapore is a "Police state" n a dictatorial country.You think by keeping mute or by shouting 50 times to the world that we are not such country,other ppl will believe you?Or better still,like our PAP government act like an Orstrach,advertise in the newspaper saying how pretty n wonderful is our country n hope that their lies can convert to truth.Dreaming..... -
don't think he will decrease GST just because you say long live lee hsien loong!! Anyway, he has no good and caring gahmen material. he is where he is now because of his background!! He always think that just by giving "sweets" to Singaporeans we will be "pacified". Fat hope!!! lee hsien loong we are not 3 year old kids!!!Originally posted by BusSpeeder:i'll say "long live lee hsien loong" then i'll say "make gst go down to 1.5%" -
Correction: The first statement above should read " I am not siding her". Typed too fast missed out the "not". Don't worry, I don't think majority of the people will vote for her party!!! WP is the favourite!!!Originally posted by rane:I am siding her. Loyalty, you mean loyalty to PAP? Loyalty to Singapore is a different issue, it should be left out when talking about the letter she wrote to Taipei. Anyone who is sensible knows she is talking all about the ruling party and not bringing down the reputation of Singapore. If you wanna talk about bringing down the reputation of Singapore, what have the ruling party done not to bring down the reputation of Singapore? -
nope i meant loyalty to singapore, im not even that loyal to PAP with the increase of GST, etc. i'm loyal towards WP. cut down hospital fees, etc. I know that she is talking about the ruling party. People (i think the taiwanese who are reading, 60% are common people) who is reading the letter will most likely say buaya words about Singapore, about its ruling party and that they won't like Singapore anymore because got this sort of ruling party. That's why I say if they talk back about how PAP rules Singapore, PAP's reputation goes down, they will then also talk back about Singapore, so Singapore's reputation ALSO goes down. If this were to be a written letter by Low Thia Khiang/Sylvia Lim instead of Chee Siok Chin/Chee Soon Juan, I'll support the WP and not PAP now but because its NOT WP but SDP. So I'll support PAP for this. If SDP were to rule, would you think Singapore is peaceful? Instead, it may be likely to end up like Taiwan where the court people sometimes end up fighting.Originally posted by rane:I am siding her. Loyalty, you mean loyalty to PAP? Loyalty to Singapore is a different issue, it should be left out when talking about the letter she wrote to Taipei. Anyone who is sensible knows she is talking all about the ruling party and not bringing down the reputation of Singapore. If you wanna talk about bringing down the reputation of Singapore, what have the ruling party done not to bring down the reputation of Singapore? -
Taiwanese, unlike Singaporeans have gone through much where politics is concerned. They are more mature in exercising their good sense of judgement to be able to differentiate between ruling party and the country!!! I admired their guts and determination to "throw out" Ah Bian!!! They speak and act!!!Originally posted by BusSpeeder:nope i meant loyalty to singapore, im not even that loyal to PAP with the increase of GST, etc. i'm loyal towards WP. cut down hospital fees, etc. I know that she is talking about the ruling party. People (i think the taiwanese who are reading, 60% are common people) who is reading the letter will most likely say buaya words about Singapore, about its ruling party and that they won't like Singapore anymore because got this sort of ruling party. That's why I say if they talk back about how PAP rules Singapore, PAP's reputation goes down, they will then also talk back about Singapore, so Singapore's reputation ALSO goes down. If this were to be a written letter by Low Thia Khiang/Sylvia Lim instead of Chee Siok Chin/Chee Soon Juan, I'll support the WP and not PAP now but because its NOT WP but SDP. So I'll support PAP for this. If SDP were to rule, would you think Singapore is peaceful? Instead, it may be likely to end up like Taiwan where the court people sometimes end up fighting. -
one more point: don't worry, majority of singaporeans will not vote SDP. Many know they are not credible, so don't worry!! If any opposition is to win, it's gonna be WP!!! Bravo WP, hope you get many more votes in the next election!!Originally posted by BusSpeeder:nope i meant loyalty to singapore, im not even that loyal to PAP with the increase of GST, etc. i'm loyal towards WP. cut down hospital fees, etc. I know that she is talking about the ruling party. People (i think the taiwanese who are reading, 60% are common people) who is reading the letter will most likely say buaya words about Singapore, about its ruling party and that they won't like Singapore anymore because got this sort of ruling party. That's why I say if they talk back about how PAP rules Singapore, PAP's reputation goes down, they will then also talk back about Singapore, so Singapore's reputation ALSO goes down. If this were to be a written letter by Low Thia Khiang/Sylvia Lim instead of Chee Siok Chin/Chee Soon Juan, I'll support the WP and not PAP now but because its NOT WP but SDP. So I'll support PAP for this. If SDP were to rule, would you think Singapore is peaceful? Instead, it may be likely to end up like Taiwan where the court people sometimes end up fighting. oops, any PAP spy here!! ha ha! WE are made to live within the fence, sad!! -
see my point? if WP was to survive, most likely will need some help from PAP. so that's why i support PAP for now instead of SDP. if SDP was to overrule PAP, they will most likely kick out other oppositions as well. by the way fingolfin is saying it, he's supporting SDP and not PAP, but in that sense, he is not supporting WP and SDA too.Originally posted by rane:one more point: don't worry, majority of singaporeans will not vote SDP. Many know they are not credible, so don't worry!! If any opposition is to win, it's gonna be WP!!! Bravo WP, hope you get many more votes in the next election!! oops, any PAP spy here!! ha ha! WE are made to live within the fence, sad!!