Beheading: Islamic ruling
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Salaam,Originally posted by googoomuck:Perhaps the more than 90% of conflicts in the world involving the religion of peace was also taken out of context?
Since 8.55 is quoted out of context as Gauze claimed, what about the other five?
I've sift through 8.48 to 8.55.
If it is about the Egyptian pharoahs and the disbelievers before them, then it's about the Jews that the God had saved. The Quran refered them
the vilest of animals? For not believing in Islam? Islam wasn't even born yet.
May i ask,how did you derive the 90 percents of the world conflict arised from Islam?
Also for that verse,of Pharoah it is about not beleiveing in Allah,not Islam.
I am sure you know of the story of Prophet Moses as and the sign given by Allah to be given to the Pharoah?
the pharoah is haughty to say he is equal to allah and performed withcraft and abused his rights.Such are the vilest of animals who seek to palce themselves above Allah and do wrong with their might inspite of truth.
Islam is but the name of the religion of Allah,it is for worship.
worship the Creator not creation. -
For verse 066.009,uh i think you posted it to show how intolerant Islam is,but i posted the post verse to explain.Originally posted by mhcampboy:you sure? What has innocents people did that you must kill? What wrong did Singapore did, that you plan to blow us up? What Hyatt hotel did that u have to blow it up? Or Bali for that matter....
Do the innocents knew what was going on?
And i do aggree with you,those verse that you posted has nothing to do with beheading,i am happy you agree.
And you are right,we can get anglry and fight and kill,,and you say that we do not need a book to dictate how and what killing should be done..
But that just it,Islma places law on the extent of you hate and its result.
Islam forbade the murder of womena dn children,
Islam forbade to kill when maiming is enough,
Islam forbids to maim when cpature is enough.
islam forbid to capture when surrender is received.
http://www.islamonline.net/english/introducingislam/politics/System/article05.shtml
For your question on code of conduct,the answer lies in the first line of my statement..
Islam is a religion for man.
It has a code of conduct from birth to death,in war and peace.
We do not shirk the resposibility to fight when it is right.
We do not shirk the respoibility to admit wrong when we are wrong.
In short,the Quran teaches us much about the world and about divine command to fight for peace but never go to excess. -
quote:Originally posted by googoomuck:
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Perhaps the more than 90% of conflicts in the world involving the religion of peace was also taken out of context?
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Nah, most of it are just frustratingly stupid and really dumb or started off from a very anachronistic mentality.
quote:
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Since 8.55 is quoted out of context as Gauze claimed, what about the other five?
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Yes the same for the rest except 9:30. They were in the situation of war. The Quran does mandate fighting back in a defensive war, citing oppression and places of worship (not just the muslim's) being threatened.
9:30, it is typical of the Quran to chide the non-monotheistic practices among some People of the Book (Jews, Christians etc). Another is when some of them assert that only those from their faith will go to heaven. Nopes, many others will.
quote:
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I've sift through 8.48 to 8.55.
If it is about the Egyptian pharoahs and the disbelievers before them, then it's about the Jews that the God had saved. The Quran refered them
the vilest of animals? For not believing in Islam? Islam wasn't even born yet.
______________________________________________________
Is that all?Originally posted by Gauze:Eh, in the whole chapter 8, there isnt any word "Jew". At most, it references the tragedy of the Pharoah's people whom God drowned since their disbeliefs follows up with an oppression, again. -
Good Morning,Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
May i ask,how did you derive the 90 percents of the world conflict arised from Islam?
Also for that verse,of Pharoah it is about not beleiveing in Allah,not Islam.
I am sure you know of the story of Prophet Moses as and the sign given by Allah to be given to the Pharoah?
the pharoah is haughty to say he is equal to allah and performed withcraft and abused his rights.Such are the vilest of animals who seek to palce themselves above Allah and do wrong with their might inspite of truth.
Islam is but the name of the religion of Allah,it is for worship.
worship the Creator not creation.
I googled and found the figure. LetÂ’s say 90% is inaccurate and more likely 89% or even 50.5%, you canÂ’t deny this fact:
If you look around the borders of the Muslim world, you find that there are a whole series of local conflicts involving Muslims and non-Muslims: Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, the Caucuses, Chechnya, Tajikistan, Kurdistan, Turkey, Afganistan, Kashmir, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, East Timur, the Philippines, Somalia, Sudan, Nigeria, Uganda, Algeria, Tunisia, Ivory Coast, Thailand, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Muslims also fight Muslims, and much more than the people of other civilizations fight each other. -
This thread is going no where....
We have someone here justifying the killings saying codes of conducts have been set.... though its humans who actually interpreted it....Pity your code of conducts is not accepted by many in the world....
And we have apologetics saying Islam is the truth and it came from Moses and such... but sadly no evidences of it... claiming only arabic bible uses Allah as God....
Allah in arabic clearly means GOD. So obviously the bible have to adopt allah as the name of god... duhh..... Please dun say.... allah have been used in bibles since moses... cos it never existed....
Thank you.... beheading is such a barbaric, uncivilised act....
If you support it, i dunno wad to say... -
Salaam,Originally posted by googoomuck:Good Morning,
I googled and found the figure. LetÂ’s say 90% is inaccurate and more likely 89% or even 50.5%, you canÂ’t deny this fact:
If you look around the borders of the Muslim world, you find that there are a whole series of local conflicts involving Muslims and non-Muslims: Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, the Caucuses, Chechnya, Tajikistan, Kurdistan, Turkey, Afganistan, Kashmir, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, East Timur, the Philippines, Somalia, Sudan, Nigeria, Uganda, Algeria, Tunisia, Ivory Coast, Thailand, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Muslims also fight Muslims, and much more than the people of other civilizations fight each other.
Can you pls provide the links>>
Just a read for you..
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,476599,00.html500 Terror Attacks in EU in 2006 - But Only 1 by Islamists
Also another Professor has made a study of worldwide suicide ..
There were almost 500 acts of terrorism across the European Union in 2006 -- but only one, the foiled suitcase bomb plot in Germany, was related to Islamist terror, a new EU report reveals. Meanwhile the trial of one of the main suspects in the German plot has been adjourned in Lebanon.
Do read Dying to Win.http://www.amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html
So i hope you cna provide me with the relevant link for me to read.
Robert Pape: Over the past two years, I have collected the first complete database of every suicide-terrorist attack around the world from 1980 to early 2004. This research is conducted not only in English but also in native-language sources—Arabic, Hebrew, Russian, and Tamil, and others—so that we can gather information not only from newspapers but also from products from the terrorist community. The terrorists are often quite proud of what they do in their local communities, and they produce albums and all kinds of other information that can be very helpful to understand suicide-terrorist attacks.
This wealth of information creates a new picture about what is motivating suicide terrorism. Islamic fundamentalism is not as closely associated with suicide terrorism as many people think. The world leader in suicide terrorism is a group that you may not be familiar with: the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.
This is a Marxist group, a completely secular group that draws from the Hindu families of the Tamil regions of the country. They invented the famous suicide vest for their suicide assassination of Rajiv Ghandi in May 1991. The Palestinians got the idea of the suicide vest from the Tamil Tigers.
TAC: So if Islamic fundamentalism is not necessarily a key variable behind these groups, what is?
RP: The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide-terrorist campaign—over 95 percent of all the incidents—has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw.
Inshallah i shall be waiting -
Salaam,Originally posted by mhcampboy:This thread is going no where....
We have someone here justifying the killings saying codes of conducts have been set.... though its humans who actually interpreted it....Pity your code of conducts is not accepted by many in the world....
And we have apologetics saying Islam is the truth and it came from Moses and such... but sadly no evidences of it... claiming only arabic bible uses Allah as God....
Allah in arabic clearly means GOD. So obviously the bible have to adopt allah as the name of god... duhh..... Please dun say.... allah have been used in bibles since moses... cos it never existed....
Thank you.... beheading is such a barbaric, uncivilised act....
If you support it, i dunno wad to say...
In Islam a code of conduct exist.
in simple term or if you use one word it is moderation.
But Islam does not eschew the facts that human are frail and weak,it does not omit the fact that we are sometimes consumed by hate/love/greed/lust and human emotions.
But for all those emotions are rules,guidelines and so on.
As my post have clearly said that the beheading done int eh videos are unIslamic,but the in Islam there is a punishment for beheading and cutting of the hand.
In Islam we beleive in accountability and the rule of law and justice.
should you do a deed that is wrong,face the consequences.
Face the music,as you so exceed Allah rules,you then must be punihed.
thus laws and punishment exist in Islam as DIVINE COMMANDS.
For us,it limit trangression.
Just like in SG law,would you bring in heroin to a large extent knowing you will be hanged?
Of course not,it is a detterent and ENFORCABLE by LAW.
If you have the law but do not enact it,then you lose the purpose of the law.
Just take the Asutralian who was hanged as an exaple.
Islam is a religon and it din not come Propeht Moses as or any Propeht ,it came from Allah.
And the name Allah mean ONE GOD,not just GOD.
there is a difference but a large one .
Do you know that many Peranakan chrisitan also use the term Allah?
For your other remarks i dont quite understand what you mena,so i cant answer,hopefully you will explain yourself.
As for me supproting beheading,i would say yes,i support all form of punishment that is in the Quran and Sunnah.
All punishemnt that meets the criteria for punihement and judged by a learned group.
Accountability and responsibility cannot be just removed from amn.
Even in the most safest coutnries,wihout law/punishment you wont have peace.
Boundaries are set.
do not murder,do not kill,do not rape,do not steal.do not lie and so on..
So either the morals are skewed for more and more people love to be immoral but not face acountability or...LOL... -
Good Morning,Originally posted by Zulkiflim:So i hope you cna provide me with the relevant link for me to read.
Inshallah i shall be waiting
HereÂ’s the link.
http://markhumphrys.com/islamic.world.html
You should have also quoted these 2 paragraphs from the same Spiegel article. They are definitely the punchier paragraphs.
_______________________________________________________________________
The vast majority of terrorist attacks were carried out by separatist terror groups targeting France and Spain. Almost all attacks "resulted only in material damage and were not intended to kill," the report's authors write.
However, Islamist attacks such as the German plot and the foiled airplane mass bomb attacks in the United Kingdom were aimed at mass casualities, the report points out. As a result, "investigations into Islamist terrorism are clearly a priority for member states' law enforcement," the report writes. Half of the 706 terrorism-related arrests made in 2006 were related to Islamist terrorism, with France, Spain, Italy and the Netherlands having the highest number of arrests of Islamist terrorist suspects.
_________________________________________________________________________
LetÂ’s not forget that these 2 events were not mentioned because it did not happen in 2006.
2004 Madrid train bombings 11 March 2004
2005 The London terrorist attack 7 July 2005. -
Stop all these can?
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i think i heard of enough preaching for today..
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Go tell the Buddhist and Muslims in Southern Thailand. Ha ha ha. You make me laugh.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Islam is a religion for man.
It has a code of conduct from birth to death,in war and peace.
We do not shirk the resposibility to fight when it is right.
We do not shirk the respoibility to admit wrong when we are wrong.
In short,the Quran teaches us much about the world and about divine command to fight for peace but never go to excess.
We do not fight those who dont fight us.
As the Quran say,Fight them as they fight you,but never be the aggresor.
Islam has two faces. One political, the other religious.
Of the two the religious face is the dangerous one as cause us to lower our guard against the political aspect of Islam.
They convince us that Islam is a religion of peace.
But really it is a matter of one brother covering up for another.
There are just too many explanations for the actions of the "misguided" Muslims, because there are just too many misguided Muslims around.
Abdul Basheer, is he misguided?
That religious leader in Australia, just removed, is he misguided to.
Was the late Ayatolla Khomeini misguided too?
How many more misquided Muslims are there undiscovered?
Something is wrong in perfection.
That issue will never be addressed unless it is acknowledged.
Basic principle of problem solving.
Acknowledge there is a problem.
Identify it.
Tackle it.
Thats not happening! -
Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Are you trying another fraudulent attempts at justifying the greatness of killing in the name of a Religion ?
For verse 066.009,uh i think you posted it to show how intolerant Islam is,but i posted the post verse to explain.
And i do aggree with you,those verse that you posted has nothing to do with beheading,i am happy you agree.
And you are right,we can get anglry and fight and kill,,and you say that we do not need a book to dictate how and what killing should be done..
But that just it,Islma places law on the extent of you hate and its result.
Islam forbade the murder of womena dn children,
Islam forbade to kill when maiming is enough,
Islam forbids to maim when cpature is enough.
islam forbid to capture when surrender is received.
For your question on code of conduct,the answer lies in the first line of my statement..
Islam is a religion for man.
It has a code of conduct from birth to death,in war and peace.
We do not shirk the resposibility to fight when it is right.
We do not shirk the respoibility to admit wrong when we are wrong.
In short,the Quran teaches us much about the world and about divine command to fight for peace but never go to excess.
Why should a 'Religion' be involved with maiming and killings and set out the 'Code of Conduct' for such inhumane acts ?
Should not a 'Religion' be advocating 'Peace, Love, Respect, Tolerance and Forgiveness' amongst all in this Human Race ?
What kind of religion will encourage the death of innocents by way of the ultimate act of self-destruction, with the message that 7 Virgins will wait in Heaven as rewards for this ultimate act of Self-Sacrifice ?
If Islam does not condone capture when one has surrendered - is there any jusitification or reasons for the beheading of the helpless prisonsers in captivity; as well as all the other cruel acts that have been executed by the Islamist Jihadists in the name of Islam - as much as you have painted a glorious defence in the Islamic guidelines ?
Which Human Being will not shirk one's responsiblity to fight when it is right ?
We do not shirk the resposibility to fight when it is right.
We do not shirk the respoibility to admit wrong when we are wrong.
In short,the Quran teaches us much about the world and about divine command to fight for peace but never go to excess
Even the aetheist will take up arms and fight when the human sense of justice is violated.
Unfortunately, you have yet to honestly admit the wrong acts carried out in the name of Islam, but continue to put up excuses by misquoting the verses of a Holy Book that is largely created by human effort in writing all that have been carried down through several generations by oral recitals.
What kind of Holy Book will even take the trouble to spell out ''the divine command to fight for peace but never go to excess'' ?
Killing a single ''God created Human'' should already be excessive act, let alone the killing, injuring and maiming the thousands of innocent lives.
The September 11 destruction of the World Trade Center in New York City had killed thousands of non-combatant civilians in a peaceful environment, in which innocent men, women and children were killed, injured and maimed - some were also Muslims.
The acts of destruction by Islamist morons in the Bali Bombing, the Jakarta Marriott Hotel Bombing, the killing of Budhist Monks and innocent school teachers are all 'acts of terror in the name of Islam'.
These acts were executed for the wrong and skewed justification in the interest of protecting and revenge on behalf of the oppressed World Muslim Communities- especially in the Middle-East region. -
Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Are you now attempting to move out of the 'Islamic Teachings' and move into the 'World of Academia' to justify the violent acts of 'Suicide Bombings' ?
Salaam,
Can you pls provide the links>>
Just a read for you..
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,476599,00.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
500 Terror Attacks in EU in 2006 - But Only 1 by Islamists
There were almost 500 acts of terrorism across the European Union in 2006 -- but only one, the foiled suitcase bomb plot in Germany, was related to Islamist terror, a new EU report reveals. Meanwhile the trial of one of the main suspects in the German plot has been adjourned in Lebanon.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also another Professor has made a study of worldwide suicide ..
Do read Dying to Win.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html
Robert Pape: Over the past two years, I have collected the first complete database of every suicide-terrorist attack around the world from 1980 to early 2004. This research is conducted not only in English but also in native-language sources—Arabic, Hebrew, Russian, and Tamil, and others—so that we can gather information not only from newspapers but also from products from the terrorist community. The terrorists are often quite proud of what they do in their local communities, and they produce albums and all kinds of other information that can be very helpful to understand suicide-terrorist attacks.
This wealth of information creates a new picture about what is motivating suicide terrorism. Islamic fundamentalism is not as closely associated with suicide terrorism as many people think. The world leader in suicide terrorism is a group that you may not be familiar with: the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.
This is a Marxist group, a completely secular group that draws from the Hindu families of the Tamil regions of the country. They invented the famous suicide vest for their suicide assassination of Rajiv Ghandi in May 1991. The Palestinians got the idea of the suicide vest from the Tamil Tigers.
TAC: So if Islamic fundamentalism is not necessarily a key variable behind these groups, what is?
RP: The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide-terrorist campaign—over 95 percent of all the incidents—has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So i hope you cna provide me with the relevant link for me to read.
Inshallah i shall be waiting
You should be ashamed of yourself by making such a comparison, as the Tamil Tigers did not need any 'Religious Cover' for their violent acts of terror.
The Tamil Tigers were more honest with their ultimate acts of Self-Sacrifice for the sake of their Political Agenda without having to cast any blemish on their 'Hindu Religion'.
There were no promises of ''7 virgins waiting for them in Heaven for their ultimate acts of Self-Sacrifice''.
All those who sacrificed themselves for their Political Cause were not misled with such 'weak human temptations for the 7 waiting virgins' - they died for their personal political conviction for a Free Tamil State in Sri Lanka - misguided as it is by the personal political agenda of the Tamil Tiger Leadership. -
Hmmm....this is just my opinion...
I think all religions are good.....
However in some conflicts, there are some people who involve religion....This is where some religious teachings got tweaked to embolster the morale of the fighters, and that's why some religions become having a bad image as a result......because religions are supposedly teaching good stuff, and so people are shocked and disappointed when they see religion being involved in a conflict.
I think alot of conflicts in the world are actually nationalistic/ territorial, and to a certain extent, ethnic strife.
Perhaps during those difficult times, the people refer to their religion for inner strength, and also to mobilize and embolster the morale of the people.
During the conflicts, atrocities happen, and since there was wide religious reference in those times, some of the atrocities are commited in the name of religion. This further tarnish the image of religion. It is totally opposite of what religions are supposed to be. Peaceful, good.
I think basically the problem lies in....mixing religion with nationalism.
War is war.....people shouldnt mix it with religion. Religion should not be used as a banner. Use some other banners, whether ethnic or something else. If there is a problem which is nationalistic/ territorial/ ethnic in nature, then fine, use those, but dont bring up religion.
For instance.....when one group of people are fighting another group of people with different religion......sometimes there are leaders who will say.....it is a religious duty to kill enemies, or it is holy, those kinds of religious aspects. But when fighting groups who are of the same religion, then the leaders will say other things, they will talk about lands, about ethnicity. So what does this mean??? Basically religion is being inappropriately used as a banner in an otherwise nationalistic/ territorial/ ethnic conflict.
It is very unfortunate and it causes alot of confusion in this world.
Meat Pao. -
Islam is a good religion
Christianity is a good religion
Judaism is a good religion
Hinduism is a good religion
Taoism is a good religion
Buddhism is a good religion
In the above religions, I have known of good people who are trying to contribute positively to the society they are in.
Most religions are good religions and aim for the salvation of the human soul or preach righteousness as a good path to follow.
Mud get thrown on a religion when there are fanatical idiots around using the words to carry out their own personal agendas and history has alot of them - some being from christianity , judaism and islam. Even the taoist majority in China in some past ancient time tried to suppress buddhism. So it happens....fanatical idiots and their brainless followers subversing a good meaning path to life for their own selfish agendas...that is the way I see things.
I don't give a damn about suicide bombers - whether they are the tamil tigers or the al qaeda....they are just very selfish buggers or terribly misguided idiots to take a human life in the name of a religion which does not support their actions in the first place. -
Salaam,Originally posted by googoomuck:Good Morning,
HereÂ’s the link.
http://markhumphrys.com/islamic.world.html
You should have also quoted these 2 paragraphs from the same Spiegel article. They are definitely the punchier paragraphs.
_______________________________________________________________________
The vast majority of terrorist attacks were carried out by separatist terror groups targeting France and Spain. Almost all attacks "resulted only in material damage and were not intended to kill," the report's authors write.
However, Islamist attacks such as the German plot and the foiled airplane mass bomb attacks in the United Kingdom were aimed at mass casualities, the report points out. As a result, "investigations into Islamist terrorism are clearly a priority for member states' law enforcement," the report writes. Half of the 706 terrorism-related arrests made in 2006 were related to Islamist terrorism, with France, Spain, Italy and the Netherlands having the highest number of arrests of Islamist terrorist suspects.
_________________________________________________________________________
LetÂ’s not forget that these 2 events were not mentioned because it did not happen in 2006.
2004 Madrid train bombings 11 March 2004
2005 The London terrorist attack 7 July 2005.
that why i always post links intead of making statement,i hope in the future you will too. -
Salaam,Originally posted by Atobe:Which Human Being will not shirk one's responsiblity to fight when it is right ?
[color=red]Good,we agree.
Even the aetheist will take up arms and fight when the human sense of justice is violated.
Good,we agree.
Unfortunately, you have yet to honestly admit the wrong acts carried out in the name of Islam, but continue to put up excuses by misquoting the verses of a Holy Book that is largely created by human effort in writing all that have been carried down through several generations by oral recitals.
Can you pls tell me whre did i misquote?
i posted the pre and post verses that other posted single verses,i even posted the links to the entire chapter for ALL to read.
And the Quran is not man made,the author of the wordsis Allah not man
I did inform you before that when ever the verses came down to the Prophet Muhammad saw they written down by scribes as well as memorized by all muslims.
Also the entire Quran was compiled by the Prophet into one book,that how we get the chapters are they are now.
Hope that clarify your misunderstanding.
What kind of Holy Book will even take the trouble to spell out ''the divine command to fight for peace but never go to excess'' ?
casue the Creator knows us well,he did create us.He knows our weakness and thus tell us to prohibit from trangression..
Killing a single ''God created Human'' should already be excessive act, let alone the killing, injuring and maiming the thousands of innocent lives.
You will find that thur out history man kind has waged war and did many despicable things.
But in Islam it is clear what is Islamic and what is not.
Let me share with you an exaple..
Once in the time fo the Prophet,2 warriors faught and their blood lust rose,but upon winning the battle,the killing stroke never came.
The captured warrior asked,Why did you not kill me,,the Muslim warrior said,If i had killed you it is for my hate,for my sake,not for Allah.
.
The September 11 destruction of the World Trade Center in New York City had killed thousands of non-combatant civilians in a peaceful environment, in which innocent men, women and children were killed, injured and maimed - some were also Muslims.
Yes we know the stroy well,as life in lost in many palces in the world thru acts that are far more larger in extent.
And if the US had followed Islamic law,then they would have been able to attack 2 coutnries and casued the murder of innocent.
in Islam ,as you can see form Saudi ,it say an eye for an eye,an arm for an arm,but if ye fear Allah forgive is better.
thus human emotion always get the better of us,thus we should always be moderate in reaction,Inshallah.
.
The acts of destruction by Islamist morons in the Bali Bombing, the Jakarta Marriott Hotel Bombing, the killing of Budhist Monks and innocent school teachers are all 'acts of terror in the name of Islam'.
The actions are un Islamic,as i have pointed out to you..
These acts were executed for the wrong and skewed justification in the interest of protecting and revenge on behalf of the oppressed World Muslim Communities- especially in the Middle-East region.
[/color]
what you view as skewed is dependant on your perception.
Do open a new thread so we can discuss this further..Inshallah..
Pls read my reply in red..thanks.. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
Are you now attempting to move out of the 'Islamic Teachings' and move into the 'World of Academia' to justify the violent acts of 'Suicide Bombings' ?
[color=red]May i ask,did you read the article?
If the Professor is wrong in his insistence that the suicide bombers of every religon are not fighitng for their own reliogn but rahter for something more secular.
You should be ashamed of yourself by making such a comparison, as the Tamil Tigers did not need any 'Religious Cover' for their violent acts of terror.
You do know that i did not write that article,it was the Professor.
tamil tigers do what they do for their own land,nationality.
The Tamil Tigers were [b]more honest with their ultimate acts of Self-Sacrifice for the sake of their Political Agenda without having to cast any blemish on their 'Hindu Religion'.
Yes,thus the article proves that religion has nothing to do with it,also Islam is not the reason the suicde bomber do what they do,as the artcile say.
There were no promises of ''7 virgins waiting for them in Heaven for their ultimate acts of Self-Sacrifice''.
Just to correct you,it is 72 virgin,but trully i wish you would open a new thread so that this misconception cna be addressed,inshallah.
It seems irregardless of the finding,i beleive you still wish to blame Islam.
May i ask did you read the article?
All those who sacrificed themselves for their Political Cause were not misled with such 'weak human temptations for the 7 waiting virgins' - they died for their personal political conviction for a Free Tamil State in Sri Lanka - misguided as it is by the personal political agenda of the Tamil Tiger Leadership.
[/color]
May i ask,where do suicide bombing occur in the midlde east,Palestine,Iraq..Let see.
Palestine they want their own land
Iraq in also fighting for their own land.
the bali bombing are towards Aussie,a ntaion that supported Iraq invasion.
Can you provide for me one suicde bombing to force a people to convert to islam?Or has a direct link to Islam.
Would really love tyo hear your views.
[/b] -
Zulkiflim, you are asking to be PWND left and right.
You are like a coarse Quran reciter and everybody hearing you cringed so hard as a result. Originally posted by dakkon_blackblade:I agree with sg mata and felirox. Zul should stop posting on such topics related to religion. In the present circumstances, they do not seem to do any good at all, and in fact tends to lead to misunderstandings. -
Hmm....yes if someone commit suicide bomb against soldiers in a war-zone, for defending his land and his people, I actually agree he is a martyr.
But bombing civillians sitting in a restaurant, who dont know anything about politics, or maybe even oppose wars....killing families on vacation.......waiters working there......passers-by.......well, that is just very wrong no matter what.
When they bomb people in restaurants, its not something religious, its a dirty war tactic. It's a terror tactic. It's something like war atrocity.
For sure many sides in conflicts commit dirty war tactics. For instance some military will create militias to wreak havoc without their men in uniform perpetrating the violence. A lot of dirty tactics in times of war.
But this one....why bring in religion.....if they commit dirty war tactic by killing civillians in restaurants through suicide bombing.......ok.....then they are playing very rough, very dirty....and I think in times of war, this kind of dirty plays happen. People become beasts.
But dont bring in religion....because its not religious....not related to religion....its a dirty war tactic....its already bad enough on its own to commit an atrocity, but its worse to commit an atrocity in the name of a religion. If you become beast, dont bring in religion...or u 'em-beast' the image of the religion....
Meat Pao. -
Salaam,Originally posted by Gauze:Zulkiflim, you are asking to be PWND left and right. You are like a coarse Quran reciter and everybody hearing you cringed so hard as a result.
PWND? what is that?
People are most uninformed about Islam and beleive what the media say.
Some poeple hold the quran before suicide bombing and then say they are defending the faith.
So such information that is the job of every muslim is to teach to both those who can be easily misled.
Like the singaporean lawyer,i am very sure he was carried forth in waves of righteous indignation not knowing he was casuing himself more harm than good becasue o misguided teachings.
thus the information spread here is to show for both the muslim and non muslim.
Many people become misguided and tend towards violence for tehy fell that their views are not being met,especially in SG who support the US invasion of iraq and Afghan.
unless we muslim ourselves make it clear what Islam is toward the entire populace,we are bringing harm to ourselves.
So keep silent no more,do not let our misguided brother and sister to be fuel for the hell fire.
Let us help them to elarn of Islam,and it laws,as is in the Quran and Sunnah.
Let them learn the full truth and the condition for it. -
I realize that Muslims often oppose people who quote the offensive verses of the Quran with ‘out of context’ arguments.
So hereÂ’s small hint from an Arab in understanding Islam.
Understanding the concept of abrogation is very important in order to understand Islam. Within the Qur'an itself are statements which contradict others. For example, one person quotes this verse :
"the only permissible war (in the Koran) is one of self-defense. Muslims may not begin hostilities (2:190)."
Another person quote verses from the Qur'an like: "Let there be no compulsion in religion" (2:256)
Theis verse seem to say clearly enough that the Qur'an teaches a peaceful response to those who oppose Islam.
But there are other verses in the Qur'an which say quite the opposite.
For example:
" But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful”(9.5)
How to solve this conflict? and which verse should the Muslims follow?
HereÂ’s a brief explanation.
There is a concept called "Abrogation" in the Quran , and that is: The Quran was (supposedly) revealed to Muhammad in a sequence of events, the latter verses supercede and nullifies the earlier verses.
Out of the whole Quran, there are 124 verses that teach some tolerence towards non-Muslims...but here is the striking fact....all of these verses are void, and were abrogated by the last verse (supposedly) revealed upon Muhammad, and that is verse 9:5 (listed above)
Jalaluddin Suyuti (One of the most respected authorities in Islam) in his book "Istenbat al tanzeel" says: "Every thing in the Qur'an about forgiveness is abrogated by verse 9:5."(listed above)
Al-Shawkani in his book "Alsaylu Jarar" (4:518-519) says: "Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jiziah (special tax paid only by Christians or Jews) or being killed. [The verses] about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case."
Finally here is what Muhammad the prophet of Islam himself said:
Ibn Haban in his Sahih, vol. 14, p. 529, narrates: Muhammad said: "I swear by Him who has my soul in his hands, I was sent to you with nothing but slaughter." -
Like I said , I know good muslims too and good people from other religions. I did not support the Iraq war at all for that matter, I took part in a protest against it in Australia. And on a personal level , I oppose the occupation of Palestine by Israelis.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
PWND? what is that?
People are most uninformed about Islam and beleive what the media say.
Some poeple hold the quran before suicide bombing and then say they are defending the faith.
So such information that is the job of every muslim is to teach to both those who can be easily misled.
Like the singaporean lawyer,i am very sure he was carried forth in waves of righteous indignation not knowing he was casuing himself more harm than good becasue o misguided teachings.
thus the information spread here is to show for both the muslim and non muslim.
Many people become misguided and tend towards violence for tehy fell that their views are not being met,especially in SG who support the US invasion of iraq and Afghan.
unless we muslim ourselves make it clear what Islam is toward the entire populace,we are bringing harm to ourselves.
So keep silent no more,do not let our misguided brother and sister to be fuel for the hell fire.
Let us help them to elarn of Islam,and it laws,as is in the Quran and Sunnah.
Let them learn the full truth and the condition for it.
I don't think what you are doing here is helping. Those certain people who felt misguided and went towards violence are using your religion to shield their own wrong doings. You should be concentrating on doing something in the muslim community to prevent such misguidance.
Those who would be interested in learning your faith will probably go to a muslim forum in sgforum , I think it is minaret or something. Do it there.
Don't mix politics with religion - it gets very messy. -
Is it not odd that twice you have avoided addressing the crux of the weakness of a Religion that has been ''hijacked by the poor Human Interpretations'' of the ''Original Message''.
You avoided addressing the entire text in my opening remarks given in my post in this thread, as well as in the other thread which you had also started.
No, there is nothing to agree or disagree, as your original statement was simply misleadingOriginally posted by Zulkiflim:
Original Post by Atobe:
Which Human Being will not shirk one's responsiblity to fight when it is right ?Good,we agree.
Even the aetheist will take up arms and fight when the human sense of justice is violated.
Good,we agree.
Are you not attempting to justify the killings from your clear references made to the Quran ?
Unfortunately, you have yet to honestly admit the wrong acts carried out in the name of Islam, but continue to put up excuses by misquoting the verses of a Holy Book that is largely created by human effort in writing all that have been carried down through several generations by oral recitals.Can you pls tell me whre did i misquote?
i posted the pre and post verses that other posted single verses,i even posted the links to the entire chapter for ALL to read.
If ''the Creator knows us well,'' and ''thus tell us to prohibit from transgression..'' - should we then say that the ''Great Book'' written by the ''Human Hand'' has even dared to trangress the Creator by illuding with ''the divine command to fight for peace but never go to excess'' ?
And the Quran is not man made,the author of the wordsis Allah not man
I did inform you before that when ever the verses came down to the Prophet Muhammad saw they written down by scribes as well as memorized by all muslims.
Also the entire Quran was compiled by the Prophet into one book,that how we get the chapters are they are now.
Hope that clarify your misunderstanding.[/quote]
The supposed ''Words'' in the ''Great Book'' is supposedly from ''GOD'' as said by ''The Prophet'' - who is a ''Human''.
No one else were able to corrobrate those ''Words'' that ''The Prophet'' said was from ''GOD'', and some of these ''Words'' were supposedly recited from one generation to another since the ''Beginning of Time'' and 'BEFORE' the birth of ''The Prophet''; and his contribution were added into the ''Great Book'' after his own 'supposed Divine Experience with GOD'.
Even then these ''Words'' were NOT recorded into the ''written works to form the Great Book'' until much later in the adult life of The Prophet', with the writing effort ending in his death in 632A.D.
If - as you have mentioned - 'The Prophet' had compiled everything into ONE Book, and since he is known to be illiterate and dependent on others to write all the words into this ''Great Book'' - how can this Book be NOT Man-Made when the whole exercise is an entirely HUMAN EFFORT ?
It seems that you are misleading yourself with the wrong understanding of the events that have led to the existence of the ''Great Book'', which even the Jews will not deny that theirs is also a result of human writings, or that of the Christian Community to their Bible - considering that the Judaism, Christianity and Islam originate from one source.
[quote]
What kind of Holy Book will even take the trouble to spell out ''the divine command to fight for peace but never go to excess'' ?casue the Creator knows us well,he did create us.He knows our weakness and thus tell us to prohibit from trangression..
Is this not a contradiction in your own understanding of the 'Great Book''', and the inaccurate interpretation of the ''Original Message'' ?
Tell that to those Muslim Radicals in Iraq who beheaded their hostages and prisoners while video recording the process, and posting it on the internet.
Killing a single ''God created Human'' should already be excessive act, let alone the killing, injuring and maiming the thousands of innocent lives.You will find that thur out history man kind has waged war and did many despicable things.
But in Islam it is clear what is Islamic and what is not.
Let me share with you an exaple..
Once in the time fo the Prophet,2 warriors faught and their blood lust rose,but upon winning the battle,the killing stroke never came.
The captured warrior asked,Why did you not kill me,,the Muslim warrior said,If i had killed you it is for my hate,for my sake,not for Allah..
Tell that to the Islamic Radical in Pakistan who calmly sliced off the head of a helpless journalist - Daniel Pearl, who was an American and an ethnic Jew - with the entire process video recorded and sent for broadcasting by the Arabic broadcast service.
continue below -
continuation
Did you not state your understanding of God's Words' that '' the Creator knows us well,he did create us.He knows our weakness and thus tell us to prohibit from trangression '' ?
The September 11 destruction of the World Trade Center in New York City had killed thousands of non-combatant civilians in a peaceful environment, in which innocent men, women and children were killed, injured and maimed - some were also Muslims.Yes we know the stroy well,as life in lost in many palces in the world thru acts that are far more larger in extent.
And if the US had followed Islamic law,then they would have been able to attack 2 coutnries and casued the murder of innocent.
in Islam ,as you can see form Saudi ,it say an eye for an eye,an arm for an arm,but if ye fear Allah forgive is better.
thus human emotion always get the better of us,thus we should always be moderate in reaction,Inshallah..
Are you attempting to justify the 9/11 incident as ''an eye for an eye'' - even as you contravene the ''Words of the Creator'' ?
As much as you have tried to point out the actions to be un-Islamic, you are also suggesting - ''An Eye for An Eye''.
The acts of destruction by Islamist morons in the Bali Bombing, the Jakarta Marriott Hotel Bombing, the killing of Budhist Monks and innocent school teachers are all 'acts of terror in the name of Islam'.The actions are un Islamic,as i have pointed out to you..
Why do you contradict yourself ?
Are you being confused by the duplicity of the Human Interpretations of the ''Great Book'' - despite your best effort to defend a Great Religion ?
These acts were executed for the wrong and skewed justification in the interest of protecting and revenge on behalf of the oppressed World Muslim Communities- especially in the Middle-East region.
How many different ways do you wish to interprete your basic statement that the Creator knows us well,he did create us.He knows our weakness and thus tell us to prohibit from trangression... ?what you view as skewed is dependant on your perception.
Do open a new thread so we can discuss this further..Inshallah..
How many different ways should our perception take ?
Are you not attempting to create the opportunity to trangress the ''Creator's Words'' ?
Like I said before, be your ''Original Self - as a Southeast Asian Malay'' , and you will at least be known as one closer to the neighours
Salaam,
Pls read my reply in red..thanks..