Why People Leave SG
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state pension systems are mostly bankrupt. retirement age is being pushed back to more than 60 (similar to debt restructuring in the private corporate sector). free medical systems' quality standard falls. -
hi old bird, nice to talk to you again.Originally posted by soul_rage:Laddie just want to make a point to you.
We only live our life once.
Who is the winner in the example below?
Assume both are grads
1) Earning pay that is low in terms of 1st world standards, and works literally > 10 hours a day, burning weekends and holidays
2) Earning pay that is higher than 1), and having a better life so that work-balance is REALLY true
Note that I used the word 'better', NOT 'easier'. Since we have not worked in Australia, I don't think its fair to label people over at Australia as having an easier life.
honestly, i believe many people emigrate out of singapore because, a) they either have enough money or highly educated or working professionals to choose, b) they believe that they are going to better their lives.
for instance, for example, if the rest of the world is like Iraq, then these people will stay put.
so emigration is not 100% a political issue. It can be one's dream since childhood etc -
i think you will be surprised that the % of total tax revenue from singaporeans will diminish over time. so the issue of how many singaporeans emigrate wont be tied with tax and $$$.Originally posted by rane:hey, cannot tahan, I really cannot "tahan" your article above. If the figure of the citizens migrating keeps going up, it does not reflect well on the gahmen of Singapore. Besides, they will lose the chances of "earning" $$$ at these people's expense and losing talents as well. So it goes without saying why gahmen is so keen to encourage them to come back.
Who cares if the citizenship in Singapore is not easy to get?? If those who have migrated are enjoying their life there and find that it is better to be there than Singapore , so why worry about obtaining Singapore citizenship in future!!! Mind you, those who have migrated are not coming back to Singapore for good.
It is because of people like you that the ruling party is getting more and more daring to do so much at our expense to please and satisfy themselves!!! Wake up!!!
it will be more difficult to take back your singapore pink ic in the future, whether you want or not, does not matter. but it does matter to the generations of singaporeans who stay put.
there people who will contribute to making singapore a more formidable place, like soul_rage.
so far, are you one of those who calculate how much the singapore government taxes and how much better it is to gain by moving to somewhere else? i dont think like you. i think, is there a profession which teaches others to succeed and yet without getting paid ? how to improve the situation for my family and close relatives ? -
Singapore government also generates revenue from state owned monopolies, like Singapore Power, SMRT, Singtel, Starhub, HDB public housing, etc.Originally posted by Gazelle:Total Australian government revenue : S$289.9b (S$14,483/capita)
Total Singapore government revenue : S$45.5b (S$10,111/capita) -
It seems to me that a certain person counting cents and dollars is missing out the real issue at stake here.
Why are we then, still losing people to more expensive countries with higher crime and taxes?
Maybe some people are content with the way things are here and are perfectly happy to give their pound of flesh to keep the status quo. If this status quo is morally justified is of no concern to them. Naturally they would get angry and fustrated with those people who are not content with this and seek to rock the boat.
But the fact is, Singapore consists of people who both like the status quo and those who seek to change it, either by voting with their feet or seeking change within the country. And in recent times there are even less people who are willing to accept things as they are.
Dollars and cents can be counted, but other things like freedom, democracy, justice, space and quality of life are not so easily crunched into numbers. And maybe that's something the status quo accepters cannot easily understand, all they see in these concepts are threats to their own world.
But the number we do have, and the number that is worrying is the number that seeks to leave and have left. -
well singapore isn't unique when comes to losing people. there are several other western democratic countries who have the same trend.
there are certain people who will try to politicize on every opportunities. i wonder what these people stand to gain. -
What's unique is that we seek to blame the citizen when he decides to quit and brand him as a "tame cat" and a "quitter", resorting to short-term solutions instead of going to the root of the issue and thinks that settles it instead of looking into our own nation and see what exactly needs to be done about it.Originally posted by CannotTahan:well singapore isn't unique when comes to losing people.
In our case, we havenÂ’t really fixed the issue of losing people by trying to replace them with FTs and other stopgap measures. It is akin to giving a soldier with a gunshot wound anaesthetic and sending him back out to the battlefield.
The local hasnÂ’t stopped leaving at worrying rates not because they are stubborn, whiny or too tame to stand the heat (though logically speaking, it is those who dare to migrate that are the tough ones), but because the root issue that is behind all the push factors still hasnÂ’t been dealt with.
And why hasnÂ’t it been dealt withÂ… because I suspect it involves rocking the boat and affecting the status quo, things that some might not want to touch. -
And who are the ones really politicizing on these things? Which party has been making the most noise, making parliment speeches about "quitters", using it to justify FT policies and the like?Originally posted by CannotTahan:there are certain people who will try to politicize on every opportunities. i wonder what these people stand to gain. -
hi, singaporeans are confronted with many events recently. progress package, gst increase, ministers salaries, record high stock prices, rising property prices, integrated resorts, f1 formula race, etc. i talked to some older people. many are not educated and much older than myself. they used to be status quo accepters as described by you. even them, they told me that government policies are getting shorter and shorter term in nature. if i draw any inference, it means that they are more confused than ever. when is the next general election? my gut feel is that you are right to assume that "And in recent times there are even less people who are willing to accept things as they are".Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:It seems to me that a certain person counting cents and dollars is missing out the real issue at stake here.
Why are we then, still losing people to more expensive countries with higher crime and taxes?
Maybe some people are content with the way things are here and are perfectly happy to give their pound of flesh to keep the status quo. If this status quo is morally justified is of no concern to them. Naturally they would get angry and fustrated with those people who are not content with this and seek to rock the boat.
But the fact is, Singapore consists of people who both like the status quo and those who seek to change it, either by voting with their feet or seeking change within the country. And in recent times there are even less people who are willing to accept things as they are.
Dollars and cents can be counted, but other things like freedom, democracy, justice, space and quality of life are not so easily crunched into numbers. And maybe that's something the status quo accepters cannot easily understand, all they see in these concepts are threats to their own world.
But the number we do have, and the number that is worrying is the number that seeks to leave and have left. -
A nation founded on dollars and cents will cease to exist independently.
Those that seek to uphold the status quo better understand that. -
who seek to blame the citizen who emigrates? come on, we are immigrants' roots too.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:What's unique is that we seek to blame the citizen when he decides to quit and brand him as a "tame cat" and a "quitter", resorting to short-term solutions instead of going to the root of the issue and thinks that settles it instead of looking into our own nation and see what exactly needs to be done about it.
In our case, we havenÂ’t really fixed the issue of losing people by trying to replace them with FTs and other stopgap measures. It is akin to giving a soldier with a gunshot wound anaesthetic and sending him back out to the battlefield.
The local hasnÂ’t stopped leaving at worrying rates not because they are stubborn, whiny or too tame to stand the heat (though logically speaking, it is those who dare to migrate that are the tough ones), but because the root issue that is behind all the push factors still hasnÂ’t been dealt with.
And why hasnÂ’t it been dealt withÂ… because I suspect it involves rocking the boat and affecting the status quo, things that some might not want to touch.
honestly, dont be afraid or be worried of locals leaving. dont blame the government for people leaving. singapore is by nature at disadvantage. even we have the best government in the world, people can and will still choose to leave. there are nicer landscape, space, seasons, road sceneries elsewhere. they make the decision, their lives. we should wish them best of luck. -
sadly to say. the whole world is converted to capitalist system led by usa. talk to europeans who complain about eroding cultural values. singapore is not unique to be capitalist. if you are in london, you smell capitalism.Originally posted by LazerLordz:A nation founded on dollars and cents will cease to exist independently.
Those that seek to uphold the status quo better understand that.
to say singapore will cease to exist because it is capitalist is bit naive. -
the difference between us and them is that they have socialists who can play counter-weight in politics.Originally posted by CannotTahan:sadly to say. the whole world is converted to capitalist system led by usa. talk to europeans who complain about eroding cultural values. singapore is not unique to be capitalist. if you are in london, you smell capitalism.
We don't.
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[quote]Originally posted by LazerLordz:
the difference between us and them is that they have socialists who can play counter-weight in politics.
We don't. [/quote
it does not matter. capitalist system dominates and it simply means $$ profits winners, $$ loss losers. very inhumane, i think. but there isn't a better leadership. -
Who came up with the term of "quitters" and "stayers" in the first place?Originally posted by CannotTahan:who seek to blame the citizen who emigrates? come on, we are immigrants' roots too.
honestly, dont be afraid or be worried of locals leaving. dont blame the government for people leaving. singapore is by nature at disadvantage. even we have the best government in the world, people can and will still choose to leave. there are nicer landscape, space, seasons, road sceneries elsewhere. they make the decision, their lives. we should wish them best of luck.
Who told us if we could look into the mirror and tell ourselves that we can quit on Singapore?
Was all this invented by the common man, or did this come from the mouth of the common man?
So who seeks to blame the citizen who leaves? The same one who invented, and used the "quitter" label. -
Incorrect, capitalism will dominate as long as it keeps the working class at bay. If it becomes inhumane enough, it will eventually destabilize and destroy itself.
it does not matter. capitalist system dominates and it simply means $$ profits winners, $$ loss losers. very inhumane, i think. but there isn't a better leadership.
And that's why, aiming for the economic bottom line in every choice we make as a nation can be disasterous. Some things just can't be crunched down into numbers and dollars and cents.
Simply put, if we were so concerned about the economic bottom line in all cases, the most pragmatic thing to do would simply be to do away with Singapore altogether and indeed leave for greener pastures.
If we are aiming for the economic bottomline and "bread' and "butter" stuff, then let's not blame the NS dodger who is simply doing what's best for his future. -
Originally posted by CannotTahan:
Ya know, would you please explain why it is good to be inhumane to people? You seem to have indulged in a round of double speak.
it does not matter. capitalist system dominates and it simply means $$ profits winners, $$ loss losers. very inhumane, i think. but there isn't a better leadership.
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So I suppose this regime's policies doesn't have any bearing on the lives of those subjected to the constitution of this regime?Originally posted by CannotTahan:dont blame the government for people leaving. singapore is by nature at disadvantage. -
I can't speak for other people, but here's why I am now working in Vancouver, and will continue to do so for the next 2 years at least.
1. I am a video game programmer. The video game industry is in its infancy stage in Singapore, so I can't foresee myself going back unless the industry matures. This may never happen, so I could be stuck overseas forever.
2. I am better paid here. Even after deducting the high taxes and accounting for the higher living expenses, I calculated my net savings to be 30% higher that my previous job in SG (including CPF). This was assuming I don't drive in either city. I now own a car in Vancouver, so the savings is even more.
3. The climate is really, really much better here. I used to get heat rashes and ezcema in SG. All that is now gone. You could say that I am not made to live in SG
4. Vancouver is truly a multicultural city. As I am typing out this post in Starbucks, 2 korean gals are sitting at a table at 10 oclock, 2 japanese gals at 3 oclock, and 2 taiwanese gals at 6 oclock. Tell me why I should go back
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1. you have a job which you probably likes. gain experience in your industry. once experienced, you can then decide. you are never stucked. singapore is one of the many places you can choose by then. in singapore, you wiould be heading a team because of your knowledge. so at the moment, dont let your home (i assume in singapore) affect you. focus on your job and do well.Originally posted by Panache1976:I can't speak for other people, but here's why I am now working in Vancouver, and will continue to do so for the next 2 years at least.
1. I am a video game programmer. The video game industry is in its infancy stage in Singapore, so I can't foresee myself going back unless the industry matures. This may never happen, so I could be stuck overseas forever.
2. I am better paid here. Even after deducting the high taxes and accounting for the higher living expenses, I calculated my net savings to be 30% higher that my previous job in SG (including CPF). This was assuming I don't drive in either city. I now own a car in Vancouver, so the savings is even more.
3. The climate is really, really much better here. I used to get heat rashes and ezcema in SG. All that is now gone. You could say that I am not made to live in SG
4. Vancouver is truly a multicultural city. As I am typing out this post in Starbucks, 2 korean gals are sitting at a table at 10 oclock, 2 japanese gals at 3 oclock, and 2 taiwanese gals at 6 oclock. Tell me why I should go back
2. certainly a good news.
3. if health is in the equation, i also see little point of coming back to sg.
4. thats fun. -
when i said it is inhuman, i literally meant it is robot like. the best place to feel capitalism is the stock market itself. stock prices move mainly there are many people buying and selling (long term or short term trading) with the aim of making profits. if you are close to the stock market, you would realise that stock market is inhumane, it does not care about you and your personal situation. yet, lots of people are in there around the globe. this is the system we all live in, irregardless of where one is. i did not say it is good to be inhumane to people.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Ya know, would you please explain why it is good to be inhumane to people? You seem to have indulged in a round of double speak. -
capitalism dominates everywhere and its influence is spreading. muslims are currently converted too, usa is in middle east big time spreading democracy (and capitalism).Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Simply put, if we were so concerned about the economic bottom line in all cases, the most pragmatic thing to do would simply be to do away with Singapore altogether and indeed leave for greener pastures.
the most pragmatic thing to do would simply be to stay put. -
Well yes, the capitalist system is intrinsically inhumane, but you also said there was no better leadership. The point is, that the purpose of the Govt is to temper the inhumane nature of the capitalist system and ensure the have nots can at least benefit in some indirect way from the capitalist system. But our Govt does not believe in any form of welfare though it does to an extent.Originally posted by CannotTahan:when i said it is inhuman, i literally meant it is robot like. the best place to feel capitalism is the stock market itself. stock prices move mainly there are many people buying and selling (long term or short term trading) with the aim of making profits. if you are close to the stock market, you would realise that stock market is inhumane, it does not care about you and your personal situation. yet, lots of people are in there around the globe. this is the system we all live in, irregardless of where one is. i did not say it is good to be inhumane to people.
The Govt terms it workfare to ensure everyone has a job, but it quietly ignores the reality that having a job does not mean a person can still survive with the cash he receives. In Singapore, families own flats and not rent them and house ownership becomes an unnecessary burden here. But people are suckered into buying a flat regardless. The Gini Coefficient for Singapore itself says it all: A sizable portion of the population earn less than 2K a year. Work out the math and figure out what happens when one buys a 3 room flat. -
no. on the contrary, without this regime, singapore would have been wiped out from the map long ago during the asian financial crisis.Originally posted by walesa:So I suppose this regime's policies doesn't have any bearing on the lives of those subjected to the constitution of this regime? -
Actually no. The most pragmatic thing is to go where the money is.Originally posted by CannotTahan:capitalism dominates everywhere and its influence is spreading. muslims are currently converted too, usa is in middle east big time spreading democracy (and capitalism).
the most pragmatic thing to do would simply be to stay put.
And as for the Middle East, the US is discovering that democracy has its drawbacks when the majority of hte population supports anti-US extremism.