Why People Leave SG
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Yes and this would make it bleaker with PRCs here who undercut locals' already Low Wage disadvantage.Originally posted by soul_rage:The middlers and low incomers are used to attract the rich.
That's what I meant when I said its beneficial for the govt to keep the average wages low
With our gov throwing their arms open to PRC, our locals will die a slow death - especially those who cannot leave for various reasons.
They are populating SG with low wage PRC workers to attract investors, so naturally our locals are left to their own devices... who wouldn't choose to up and leave/ Even fellow workers I know, who fast approaching 50, have save up substantially with a view of "retiring" In Thialand where his Thais wife's parents live...
As such, we can see that in future, Singapore will be populated by Iffy Foreign Citizens...
Why do I say Iffy? Because when there happens to be another economic downturn, you will see these Iffy Foreign citizens, taking flight back home...
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Coming to pay issues:
I am now at a US MNC, where I am paid almost 2x more than the previous job at a Singapore company.
With my current experience, going to HK will earn me about almost a double of my current pay at the US MNC (though I will probably work like !@#@), but you can see that this pay is 4x more than the previous job at a Singapore company.
In Australia, my current experience can get me a job that is about 40% more than my current pay.
Ultimately, if you look at it, Singapore is a comparatively cheap place to invest it, coz employees here are cheaper than other developed economies.
So now you know why I am also considering moving overseas to try to secure a job with a better income.
The only thing that is holding me back are my parents... I am very attached to them, and they would not want to emigrate. -
You forgot to add one more, which is seriously in my agenda of push factors for leaving SGOriginally posted by ShutterBug:It is really pointless to argue about why people leave SG...
No matter HOW you beg to differ that SG is better to live in, no one can deny the following facts:
>> Land Scarce
>> Greying population with low birth rate
>> Gov's vision of 6 million population to make living even less condusive
>> Rising costs in general living, and healthcare inadequacies
>> Dubious education system
>> Ever increasing salaries of gov
>> Ever increasing GST
>> NO retirement
>> Favortism of FTs
>> Age discrimination
>> An Election System that is "fixed"
... it can go on...
Where are the BENEFITS for locals to stay on???
"Serve reservist"
Note that reservist is no longer as relaxed as in the past. These days, they demand more from the reservist
Thinking about it, now that SG has become a corporation with a diverse people from different nationalities (no longer a country), I cannot find any reason to justify why I should continue doing reservist and even have to protect these people whom are here to compete and do not even have to serve NS like us.
OF coz, the only reason I am serving NS now is that I will be charged if I dont' serve
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Yes, NS and Reservist issues goes without saying... therefore my foot note "...it can go on..."Originally posted by soul_rage:You forgot to add one more, which is seriously in my agenda of push factors for leaving SG
"Serve reservist"
Note that reservist is no longer as relaxed as in the past. These days, they demand more from the reservist
Thinking about it, now that SG has become a corporation with a diverse people from different nationalities (no longer a country), I cannot find any reason to justify why I should continue doing reservist and even have to protect these people whom are here to compete and do not even have to serve NS like us.
OF coz, the only reason I am serving NS now is that I will be charged if I dont' serve
Obviously, there many Mandatory and "Chargeable" obligations as citizens, and at the same time, we are EXPECTED to work more than hard but hand to mouth as well, while they ushering in the FTs and up their salaries....
Inclusive? Condusive? - hardly any relation to these two words... -
If your parents are both healthy, I would encourage you to take the plunge, soul_rage. Step out and see the world. Mine are 56 and 60 and they are both healthy, thankfully. I do plan to return to Singapore if this situation changes though. Honestly, I don't think I can support them in Canada, even if the Canadian immigration law allows it.Originally posted by soul_rage:Coming to pay issues:
I am now at a US MNC, where I am paid almost 2x more than the previous job at a Singapore company.
With my current experience, going to HK will earn me about almost a double of my current pay at the US MNC (though I will probably work like !@#@), but you can see that this pay is 4x more than the previous job at a Singapore company.
In Australia, my current experience can get me a job that is about 40% more than my current pay.
Ultimately, if you look at it, Singapore is a comparatively cheap place to invest it, coz employees here are cheaper than other developed economies.
So now you know why I am also considering moving overseas to try to secure a job with a better income.
The only thing that is holding me back are my parents... I am very attached to them, and they would not want to emigrate. -
Hey thanks for the advice. Just curious why you cannot support them in Canada, do let me know in a private message since its unrelated to the topic.Originally posted by Panache1976:If your parents are both healthy, I would encourage you to take the plunge, soul_rage. Step out and see the world. Mine are 56 and 60 and they are both healthy, thankfully. I do plan to return to Singapore if this situation changes though. Honestly, I don't think I can support them in Canada, even if the Canadian immigration law allows it.
Well ya, my preference would be to leave Singapore, go work outside and gain invaluable experience, then come back to Singapore and take up a high-ranking post (since they prefer overseas exp than local exp) -
Nothing secretive about it. It simply doesn't make economic sense to retire in a more expensive country. Estimate they will burn through their savings in 5 years if they live in Canada. On my current pay, yes, I can support them, but my own retirement plan goes to hell.Originally posted by soul_rage:Hey thanks for the advice. Just curious why you cannot support them in Canada, do let me know in a private message since its unrelated to the topic.
Well ya, my preference would be to leave Singapore, go work outside and gain invaluable experience, then come back to Singapore and take up a high-ranking post (since they prefer overseas exp than local exp) -
I wouldn't friggin come back at all...Originally posted by soul_rage:Hey thanks for the advice. Just curious why you cannot support them in Canada, do let me know in a private message since its unrelated to the topic.
Well ya, my preference would be to leave Singapore, go work outside and gain invaluable experience, then come back to Singapore and take up a high-ranking post (since they prefer overseas exp than local exp)
I love fire arms, and where I am going I am allowed with license to collect small arms as a hobby... firing pins in collection must be removed as well.
Oh and being a photographer, sceneries are plentiful there..!
I'm also leaving in due course.... -
Originally posted by CannotTahan:i only share with people i trust. sorry. but i am not bull-s..ting hor.
but i should rephrase
if we talk only about money and nothing else then one could get rich about 3 to 4 times faster in singapore than in western countries.
You know, your argument rests on nothing without something more firm to stand on. -
In some countries, pride is defined by the real greatness of the country and the ability to change things with your own strength.Originally posted by CannotTahan:you are correct about the hard disk drive industry. what i notice is a hollowing out of manufacturing jobs to china everywhere in the world. china is the manufacturing base for the world.
while the regional countries were fighting the hedge funds and then lost, what did monetary authority of singapore do? find out yourself
but i can tell you a bit. it was incredibly smart and filled me with lots of pride to be a singaporean.
Here, apparently, pride is defined by being led by the nose... -
Hmm.. speaking of hard drives; these days all my NEW hard drives have been crashing and failing a lot - and these were all Made in China..
back when they were Made in Singapore, they hardly failed... -
My 2 poor sons who are working more than 12 hours per day in hospitals but salaries earned per month are a half of the ministers' pay a day!!!
What is the justification?????
Do u think they will stay put in Sinkapore after they had served their bonds??
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Hey, your minister say that he works 10 times harder than your sons, and earn 10 times lessOriginally posted by foomwee88:My 2 poor sons who are working more than 12 hours per day in hospitals but salaries earned per month are a half of the ministers' pay a day!!!
What is the justification?????
Do u think they will stay put in Sinkapore after they had served their bonds?? -
ya silly me. You are right about that.Originally posted by Panache1976:Nothing secretive about it. It simply doesn't make economic sense to retire in a more expensive country. Estimate they will burn through their savings in 5 years if they live in Canada. On my current pay, yes, I can support them, but my own retirement plan goes to hell.
Not that Singapore's a good place to retire anyway, sigh... -
Maybe you scrape off the stick on brand, it will reveal pagoda brand underneath. China is renowned for making imitation stuff.Originally posted by ShutterBug:Hmm.. speaking of hard drives; these days all my NEW hard drives have been crashing and failing a lot - and these were all Made in China..
back when they were Made in Singapore, they hardly failed...
By the way, what brand hard drives were they? I hope they are not Western Digital.
Hehehe........ -
Singapore only is a good place to retire if you have the deep pockets for it, and you belong to the generation that paid less than 100 K for a flat.Originally posted by soul_rage:ya silly me. You are right about that.
Not that Singapore's a good place to retire anyway, sigh... -
NOw I see this Gazelle for who he truly....a pathetic MIW dog who licks them upOriginally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Seems Gazelle has finally dropped all pretenses and shown his true colours by resorting to trolling?
Frankly to use his terms, wild cats are only bred out in the tough conditions of the wild, since he is so enamoured with them he should indeed have no issue with the tame cats of Singapore wanting to experience the tough life abroad and becoming the wild cats he seems to think is so cool.
More seriously he can post all the pictures of food and culture he wants, but seriously can he really post any picture in Singapore that can match the splendour of the Grand Canyon or the Angel Falls? Can we find rolling mountain plains or snow? Do you think our IR resorts and the like can match up to what mother nature has carved for other nations.
Not saying Singapore is bad, but I think by only wanting to emphasise the bad points of other countries and toot our own horn he is but missing the big picture and the true reason why Singaporeans leave and many do not come back.
Are they willing to risk the drugs and guns and crimes because they are stupid and donÂ’t know better? No, the real reason why we are losing are people lies in ourselves, his lionnoisy-style of trying to find solutions to our migration problem by tooting our own horn and highlighting the problems of others is like saying whatÂ’s good about our house and bad about others while ignoring the fire that is in the kitchen.
ItÂ’s not that Singapore is a bad place to stay, but there are strong factors that are alienating the locals from it and until the root is found the problem will contuine and all of GazelleÂ’s attempts to curse the local as a tame quitting cat, paint our local variety of food as worth staying for, and the crime rate of other nations will simply not help the problem at all.
Basically he is just screaming, and rather ineffectively as well.
If he truly wanted to be productive, he ought to face the true root of the problem instead of declaring the local is a tame useless cat and ought to buck up.
The irony is that they are indeed bucking up and becoming wild, that’s why they are leaving the safety and tameness of Singapore. It is the tame cats that stay and take whatever is happening lying down, not saying that all locals are tame cats, but that if you want to find a tame cat, the “quitter” is certainly NOT one.
If anything all too often the “quitter” is the WILD cat that our government is so desperate to keep, to the extent that it has become a problem. -
Hi CoquitlamOriginally posted by Coquitlam:NOw I see this Gazelle for who he truly....a pathetic MIW dog who licks them up
Frankly, I have no disagreements with you, and admire your courage to pick up and leave Singapore
But do be sensitive about using Sillyporeans, etc. becoz there are many people who want to leave, but cannot leave. So they are not silly, just not fortunate enough like you to be able to make the move -
Some were Seagate, soem were Maxtor...Originally posted by maurizio13:Maybe you scrape off the stick on brand, it will reveal pagoda brand underneath. China is renowned for making imitation stuff.
By the way, what brand hard drives were they? I hope they are not Western Digital.
Hehehe........ -
I have no problems with my Maxtor and Seagate, but I have problems with Western Digital. It's not the first time I have had problems with WD, my previous purchases of WD resulted in lost data as well.Originally posted by ShutterBug:Some were Seagate, soem were Maxtor... -
And why do they find it worth the while to stay put?Originally posted by CannotTahan:people emigrate because they dont find it worth the while to stay put and they made it happen. but i dont quite agree with you that these are necessarily smart people.
Our government would disagree with you, having highlighted that losing our top talents is a real and pressing issue. We are losing our smartest people, naturally because as it turns out the smart people are the ones with the vision, and the means to make the decision to vote with their feet. And this has our government very concerned.
Unfortunately you seem to try to paint the main reason for us losing people as due to "childhood dreams" and other non-pragmatic reasons, but I think even our own government knows better then to believe in self-deluding reasons like that.
There are very pragmatic push factors for making Singaporeans want to leave.
And of course, there is also an issue of what your money can buy you. Unfortunately no matter how much you make, chances are you, like most Singaporeans will never have a house beyond a hole in a flat. And of course cars are yet another issue.
In short Singapore is like a theme park then a real nation, there are only so many rides that you can take before you realize that you are paying the tourist dollar for something that you can get for a lot less, and also a place in which people try to convince you that the limited number of rides are all your options of fufillment you can ever have in life.
Chances are being in a theme park is safer (due to the security) then being outside in nature or in a real town, but eventually one realizes life is more then the reverse bungee gimmick at Clarke Quay.
The question is, fine then we have these limitations, so what are we going to do about it? By making them felt even more by Singaporeans by devauling retirement, lowering wages, and raising the costs of living?
Actually there is no need to say so much, just go live with a family from one of the nations that are the top destinations for Singaporeans to move to for two weeks or so and experience their kind of life and ask them questions about their lifestyle and the costs they have to pay and the like.
A lot immediately becomes clear to most people once that happens.
It is true Singaporeans are decended from immigrants, the problem is this: if Singapore expects to survive as a nation it needs to move out of this phase and transit into one that makes nationhood into a solid concept. Unfortunately the latest policies aren't helping too much. -
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
I love the way you put it with your analogy.
And why do they find it worth the while to stay put?
Our government would disagree with you, having highlighted that losing our top talents is a real and pressing issue. We are losing our smartest people, naturally because as it turns out the smart people are the ones with the vision, and the means to make the decision to vote with their feet. And this has our government very concerned.
Unfortunately you seem to try to paint the main reason for us losing people as due to "childhood dreams" and other non-pragmatic reasons, but I think even our own government knows better then to believe in self-deluding reasons like that.
There are very pragmatic push factors for making Singaporeans want to leave.
And of course, there is also an issue of what your money can buy you. Unfortunately no matter how much you make, chances are you, like most Singaporeans will never have a house beyond a hole in a flat. And of course cars are yet another issue.
In short Singapore is like a theme park then a real nation, there are only so many rides that you can take before you realize that you are paying the tourist dollar for something that you can get for a lot less, and also a place in which people try to convince you that the limited number of rides are all your options of fufillment you can ever have in life.
Chances are being in a theme park is safer (due to the security) then being outside in nature or in a real town, but eventually one realizes life is more then the reverse bungee gimmick at Clarke Quay.
The question is, fine then we have these limitations, so what are we going to do about it? By making them felt even more by Singaporeans by devauling retirement, lowering wages, and raising the costs of living?
[b]Actually there is no need to say so much, just go live with a family from one of the nations that are the top destinations for Singaporeans to move to for two weeks or so and experience their kind of life and ask them questions about their lifestyle and the costs they have to pay and the like.
A lot immediately becomes clear to most people once that happens.
It is true Singaporeans are decended from immigrants, the problem is this: if Singapore expects to survive as a nation it needs to move out of this phase and transit into one that makes nationhood into a solid concept. Unfortunately the latest policies aren't helping too much.[/b]
Its just so... aptly put
Frankly, you don't need to go overseas to see how much we as a bunch of losers (I am not being offending, but just stating in a way that mean the govt made us a bunch of losers) have been cowed by the govt.
Just ask any of my friends. They will tell you that their pay in Singapore companies are the best they can do. And they are so surprised that I can double my pay.
Many many years of control, that caused people to think so lowly of themselves, and don't even dare to ask for the value they deserve.
i once had a friend, whom went for his interview with a UK firm. They asked him how much he is asking for. He stated his expectations, thinking its still high. The interviewer laughed and said "hahaha, tell you what, we add another $300 for you"
You see, if you are stupid, and you ask for a pay that is much lower than their budget, most companies won't tell you (the UK firm was good to my friend). Most would just laugh their way to the bank. -
yeah, I understand what you are driving at! Referring to your last para, I am "victimised", too!Originally posted by soul_rage:I love the way you put it with your analogy.
Its just so... aptly put
Frankly, you don't need to go overseas to see how much we as a bunch of losers have been cowed by the govt.
Just ask any of my friends. They will tell you that their pay in Singapore companies are the best they can do. And they are so surprised that I can double my pay.
Many many years of control, that caused people to think so lowly of themselves, and don't even dare to ask for the value they deserve.
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I secured my parents' entry into Australia - they can now leave and enter as they wish as permanent residents and I am their connecting line into Australia. Dad is still working to make sure that nothing financially goes wrong with them and waiting for his boss to give him a nice golden handshake under the terms he was employed in. My mom come often and stay for a while then when it gets cold - she return to Singapore.Originally posted by soul_rage:Coming to pay issues:
I am now at a US MNC, where I am paid almost 2x more than the previous job at a Singapore company.
With my current experience, going to HK will earn me about almost a double of my current pay at the US MNC (though I will probably work like !@#@), but you can see that this pay is 4x more than the previous job at a Singapore company.
In Australia, my current experience can get me a job that is about 40% more than my current pay.
Ultimately, if you look at it, Singapore is a comparatively cheap place to invest it, coz employees here are cheaper than other developed economies.
So now you know why I am also considering moving overseas to try to secure a job with a better income.
The only thing that is holding me back are my parents... I am very attached to them, and they would not want to emigrate. -
To migrate , you either need alot of money or a skill in demand.Originally posted by CannotTahan:people emigrate because they dont find it worth the while to stay put and they made it happen. but i dont quite agree with you that these are necessarily smart people.
Are they necessarily smart people? I don't know. To stay overseas and be viable still - that takes alot of smarts and hardwork.
The ones like others and I , we start building a new base in Australia and we have to work hard for it . Of course , there is the lucky few who make the millions within a couple of years but I am not one of them - I am contented to have enough for my future to sustain me if anything goes wrong.
If I were to stay in Singapore - I probably won't even own an apartment in the CBD. I am not talking about owning some expensive penthouse apartment - just one nice and cosy enough to call home. I won't have capital at all in Singapore - I probably still stay in my parents' home until god knows when unless I want to risk a HDB mortgage and get thrown out in the streets when my employer decides that a younger person is cheaper to employ. How about my parents? They gain by becoming permanent residents in Australia thru cheaper healthcare and better healthier living conditions. I know that I will have a roof over my head and so will they. I know Australia have a safety net I can depend on if I need help looking after mom and dad.