Free Education and Medical Care : Fact or Myth?
-
Now, open your eyes and prepare to stretch your vestibular canals.Originally posted by Gazelle:If your intention is to proof that australians are getting more benefits than the tax they are paying, I would suggest that you use a lower tax collection number. If your intention is to argue for the sake of arguing, then I suggest you use both, cause it might make you look smarter
You have made two errors in stating that Australia's income revenue is S$149.3 billion/yr. Just admit the error and do not mislead. Otherwise, prove how you got this figure.
First error: S$149.3 billion / yr. There's no such thing as per year. Income revenue changes from year to year.
Second error: The correct figure should be A$185 billion.
Allow me to explain the concept of benefits to you. Since we are referring to budget and income tax in this topic, benefits simply refers to all social, economic, health, education etc inputs as stated in the budget. This is located under "interest expense", "capital transfers" and "current transfers".
Let me explain to you the benefits/tax ratio.
Australia:
Their income tax revenue for 2006-2007 is A$185 billion.
http://www.budget.gov.au/2006-07/myefo/html/03_part_3-03.htm Table 7
The benefits input for 2006-2007 is A$144 billion
http://www.budget.gov.au/2006-07/myefo/html/03_part_3-09.htm
Table 14
Benefit/tax ratio: 0.78 (2 dec pl)
Singapore:
Their income tax revenue for 2006 is S$13.8 billion.
http://www.mof.gov.sg/budget_2007/revenue_expenditure/attachment/Revenue_Estimates.pdf
The benefits input for 2006-2007 is S$10.6 billion
http://www.mof.gov.sg/budget_2007/revenue_expenditure/attachment/Expenditure_Estimates.pdf
(Pg 6 of 8 )
Benefit/tax ratio: 0.77 (2 dec pl)
According to the budget of the two governments, for every A$1 of tax the Australians pay, they receive A$0.78 in return. For every S$1 of tax Singaporeans pay, we receive S$0.77 of benefits.
Moreover, Australian's healthcare is free, what about ours? Oh, I forgot that our civil service is one of the highest paid in the world. People don't praise the social and edcuational benefits there for nothing.
I have asked you:
1) to explain your figure of S$149.3 b but you kept pushing the ball to me. Can't you see that I need to have a look at your explanation before I commence my benefit/tax ratio presentation??
I can only speculate that you have gotten the wrong figure but are too proud to admit.
2) I genuinely and sincerely ask you to prove the "naysayers" wrong and you mistake it for aggression. Since you have dug out the information, why not carry it through to the end? Perhaps you are afraid of a sinister attack from me.
3) I believe you are trying to corner me by asking me to explain the term "benefits". Well, it's really simple. Refer to my explanation above.
Please do not misunderstand me; I do not argue for the sake of arguing. If I'm wrong, I'm ready to face the truth....unlike you. Have you forgotten my advice to you before? Refer below.
"I have nothing to prove and given any other day, I will still beat you.......for your desire to prove one wrong is greater than your hunger for the truth."
Do try to channel your energy for better uses like responding to my post on HDBs and retirement here.
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=261207
Thanks and appreciate your effort. -
His motto is, "win at whatever the cost, even at the expense of being called an imbecile".
An equivalent question to the topic would be: Does an apple or an orange taste better? Two different coloured fruits, two different taste, but Gazelle wants to make a "fair" comparison between the two. -
That's the thing I love about Australia. They give it all to you upfront. No hidden costs, no sneaky misrepresentations. They don't hide a minefield of high health / education costs behind the promise of low tax.
So if we go according to what Gazelle claims, that free edu and med care are myths, then those schoolmates I went to school with a few years back were not receiving free education although they and their parents claimed they were getting it, and I also did not get checked into a public hospital in Melbourne once, get hooked on a drip and be pumped full of state-funded medicine using state-funded needles, then walk out after 3 days without having to pay a single cent?
A strange reality indeed. -
Originally posted by spinsugar:
He is out here to distort the truth, mislead others into thinking that Singapore is the best city on earth.
That's the thing I love about Australia. They give it all to you upfront. No hidden costs, no sneaky misrepresentations. They don't hide a minefield of high health / education costs behind the promise of low tax.
So if we go according to what Gazelle claims, that free edu and med care are myths, then those schoolmates I went to school with a few years back were [b]not receiving free education although they and their parents claimed they were getting it, and I also did not get checked into a public hospital in Melbourne once, get hooked on a drip and be pumped full of state-funded medicine using state-funded needles, then walk out without having to pay a single cent? A strange reality indeed.[/b] -
He should realise he's giving "our" beloved Singapore a bad name. If any of our foreign friends read this, they'd only be more convinced that Singapore's got something to hideOriginally posted by maurizio13:He is out here to distort the truth, mislead others into thinking that Singapore is the best city on earth.
Not that it matters to him, no? Perhaps his whole point is to try and influence a group of Singaporeans lacking in the critical thinking skills department.. the kind who form their judgements based on hearsay and a few select government mouthpieces. Then he would be perpetuating our problems, instead of resolving them. Shooting himself in the foot, in other words. -
I concur.Originally posted by spinsugar:He should realise he's giving "our" beloved Singapore a bad name. If any of our foreign friends read this, they'd only be more convinced that Singapore's got something to hide Not that it matters to him, no? Perhaps his whole point is to try and influence a group of Singaporeans lacking in the critical thinking skills department.. the kind who form their judgements based on hearsay and a few select government mouthpieces. Then he would be perpetuating our problems, instead of resolving them. Shooting himself in the foot, in other words. -
First of all , Gazelle does not live in Australia. So you all have to forgive him for his ignorance.
Second of all, I have an accountant who fills in my tax forms . Where it comes to taxes , Australia is quite liberal in the sense that they allow you to claim back anything related to work and study - yes that includes phone bills.
Third, in witholding tax from me , my employer has to add on the medicare levy ( free healthcare) - approx 680+per year of the tax I pay but I can be sure that I got something to fall back on if I cannot afford private health insurance anymore. And I claim back rebates on my private health insurance as well as get one free new spects every year and twice yearly dental checkups courtesy of Medibank Private.
Fourth , they recently changed the rules on superannuation - they won't tax the amount coming out when you are over a certain age and the govt pays 1.5 dollars per dollar you put into your super - at least that is what I see in my super statement.
Fifth, if I have kids , I probably send them to private schools but the public schooling system is good to fall back on.
Sixth , I was warded for 6 days in an Australian Hospital for pneumonia- 1 day in a high dependency unit - bill is ......$0. In Singapore, I more than likely pay like shit for it. Of course, the metropolitan public hospital is not as high tech as SGH but their technology is still consider ok and their rooms are like your B1 class. -
So we are all clear then, its not just a myth
, Now I need to save up the 4k for migration fees 
-
I think I also claimed back my accountant's fee in taxOriginally posted by Jontst78:So we are all clear then, its not just a myth , Now I need to save up the 4k for migration fees .
You have to see if you like Australia first. -
Spore is not the best country to live in but I u can ask hime despite higher taxes how come more local migrate to these countries?Originally posted by maurizio13:He is out here to distort the truth, mislead others into thinking that Singapore is the best city on earth. -
Is it only $4000 for migration fees? I am already 31 this year. Any chance to migrate?Originally posted by fymk:I think I also claimed back my accountant's fee in tax .
You have to see if you like Australia first. -
c) Are you contradicting yourself or simply in the mood to shoot yourself in the foot yet again as you've so spectacularly done from time to time? How can it be "actually not free and it cost more than what you get" if you belonged to the group of "bums" who pay no taxes but enjoyed the same benefits as everyone else?Originally posted by Gazelle:a) Why dont you just say that you choose to be a beach bum living in australia?
b) Do you have reasons to belive that the australian government will allow asian immigrants to become a beach bum in Australia? And what is the chances of Singaporeans migrating to australia will gain from such healthcare and education policy?
c) Different culture require different approach. I am not critising their system because it has got nothing to do with me. However the point of this thread is to clear the myth that the so called "Free" healthcare and education is actually not free and it cost more than what you get.
I've reasons to believe you're nothing more than an idiot - perhaps, even labelling you an idiot is an insult to those genuinely stupid.
Why can't you comprehend simple logic dictating the fact that anyone seeking public healthcare in Australia or the UK is entitled to free medical care? Morons like you will in all probability be on the dole and draining the social welfare if you lived in those countries. That said, I don't see anything precluding "bums" like you from seeking the same rights afforded to other hardworking folks who actually fund your welfare. Now, is that not free for you?
Or does an idiot who understands little in a free market economy prove incapable of even understanding what's "free"? -
Predictions by the dogs only materialise in their own kennels.Originally posted by maurizio13:b) Anything can pan out in the future, unless you are gods like P?P, then your predictions will be reality. If you need further evidence, just look to Shincorp how their predictions were wide off the mark... 
-
Failing which, you can always seek political asylum - just make sure you know which embassies to set foot on...Originally posted by Jontst78:So we are all clear then, its not just a myth , Now I need to save up the 4k for migration fees -
And do you think that such a system gives the average Australian a "crutch" mentality?Originally posted by fymk:First of all , Gazelle does not live in Australia. So you all have to forgive him for his ignorance.
Second of all, I have an accountant who fills in my tax forms . Where it comes to taxes , Australia is quite liberal in the sense that they allow you to claim back anything related to work and study - yes that includes phone bills.
Third, in witholding tax from me , my employer has to add on the medicare levy ( free healthcare) - approx 680+per year of the tax I pay but I can be sure that I got something to fall back on if I cannot afford private health insurance anymore. And I claim back rebates on my private health insurance as well as get one free new spects every year and twice yearly dental checkups courtesy of Medibank Private.
Fourth , they recently changed the rules on superannuation - they won't tax the amount coming out when you are over a certain age and the govt pays 1.5 dollars per dollar you put into your super - at least that is what I see in my super statement.
Fifth, if I have kids , I probably send them to private schools but the public schooling system is good to fall back on.
Sixth , I was warded for 6 days in an Australian Hospital for pneumonia- 1 day in a high dependency unit - bill is ......$0. In Singapore, I more than likely pay like shit for it. Of course, the metropolitan public hospital is not as high tech as SGH but their technology is still consider ok and their rooms are like your B1 class. -
Why don't you go to Australia and find out?Originally posted by Rock^Star:And do you think that such a system gives the average Australian a "crutch" mentality?
I've been there multiple times and do not detect the "crutch" mentality in the way they do their work and go about their lives. There is such a thing called personal ambition and life goals that are a large part of their life and culture. They view welfare as a "safety net" if their dreams do not make it, not as a crutch to slack through life. People who exploit the welfare system are rightfully frowned.
On the other hand, that seems to be something we do not seem to have. Any personal ambition or life goal that strays too far from the economic bottomline is deemed a liability in Singaporean life. People are unwilling to unable to take risks from a lifetime of educational conditioning, an environment stifling to creativity and innovation, and a lack of safety nets that give people a second chance. If you are anything but a cog then good luck to you.
What they have that we do not seem to have is a good reason to identify with their nation, is the average Singaporean as proud of Singapore as the Australian is proud of Australia?
If we cannot divorce our notion of nationhood and what Singapore means from the ruling party, as some have said on the Young PAP blog that "Singapore is PAP, PAP is Singapore" it is then no surprise that 33.4% of our populace have weak notions of what it means to be Singaporean. And less surprise that some in this 33.4% will choose to leave. -
Thanks for sharing. I have never been there before but I shall fly there some day to check it out.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Why don't you go to Australia and find out?
I've been there multiple times and do not detect the "crutch" mentality in the way they do their work and go about their lives. There is such a thing called personal ambition and life goals that are a large part of their life and culture. They view welfare as a "safety net" if their dreams do not make it, not as a crutch to slack through life. People who exploit the welfare system are rightfully frowned.
On the other hand, that seems to be something we do not seem to have. Any personal ambition or life goal that strays too far from the economic bottomline is deemed a liability in Singaporean life. People are unwilling to unable to take risks from a lifetime of educational conditioning, an environment stifling to creativity and innovation, and a lack of safety nets that give people a second chance. If you are anything but a cog then good luck to you.
What they have that we do not seem to have is a good reason to identify with their nation, is the average Singaporean as proud of Singapore as the Australian is proud of Australia?
If we cannot divorce our notion of nationhood and what Singapore means from the ruling party, as some have said on the Young PAP blog that "Singapore is PAP, PAP is Singapore" it is then no surprise that 33.4% of our populace have weak notions of what it means to be Singaporean. And less surprise that some in this 33.4% will choose to leave. -
Its about 3k plus for the govt and legal fees etc..Originally posted by will4:Is it only $4000 for migration fees? I am already 31 this year. Any chance to migrate?
The agent I went to, quoted his costs about another 3k plus.
Total about 7k.
I'm 29 and according to his calculations, I meet the 120 pts mark. He will refund 50% of agent fees if my app gets rejected. That is if I do decide to take his offer. Alot depends on your profession, whether its in high demand. Docs, Accountants, healthcare, IT programmers are in rather hgh demand when I last checked. -
fymk, dont mind me asking.Originally posted by fymk:First of all , Gazelle does not live in Australia. So you all have to forgive him for his ignorance.
Second of all, I have an accountant who fills in my tax forms . Where it comes to taxes , Australia is quite liberal in the sense that they allow you to claim back anything related to work and study - yes that includes phone bills.
Third, in witholding tax from me , my employer has to add on the medicare levy ( free healthcare) - approx 680+per year of the tax I pay but I can be sure that I got something to fall back on if I cannot afford private health insurance anymore. And I claim back rebates on my private health insurance as well as get one free new spects every year and twice yearly dental checkups courtesy of Medibank Private.
Fourth , they recently changed the rules on superannuation - they won't tax the amount coming out when you are over a certain age and the govt pays 1.5 dollars per dollar you put into your super - at least that is what I see in my super statement.
Fifth, if I have kids , I probably send them to private schools but the public schooling system is good to fall back on.
Sixth , I was warded for 6 days in an Australian Hospital for pneumonia- 1 day in a high dependency unit - bill is ......$0. In Singapore, I more than likely pay like shit for it. Of course, the metropolitan public hospital is not as high tech as SGH but their technology is still consider ok and their rooms are like your B1 class.
a) How much income tax have you paid over the years living in australia?
b) How much income tax will you have to pay if you are earning the same amount in singapore
c) What is (a) minus (b)
d) How much benefit have you gain so far living in Australia.
e) I know you can claim expense related to work, but how much have you claimed
f) What are the chances of someone being warded to hospital every year?
In order for this discussion to be constructive, I think it is better to put a number to what we discuss instead of just saying in Australia, this is free and that is free. -
Won't it suffice to say that the less you earn the more you benefit from the free medical, education etc...? The lower income pay almost no tax over there isn't it?
-
Originally posted by Rock^Star:
Rock_star,
Now, open your eyes and prepare to stretch your vestibular canals.
You have made two errors in stating that Australia's income revenue is S$149.3 billion/yr. Just admit the error and do not mislead. Otherwise, prove how you got this figure.
First error: S$149.3 billion / yr. There's no such thing as per year. Income revenue changes from year to year.
Second error: The correct figure should be A$185 billion.
Allow me to explain the concept of benefits to you. Since we are referring to budget and income tax in this topic, benefits simply refers to all social, economic, health, education etc inputs as stated in the budget. This is located under "interest expense", "capital transfers" and "current transfers".
Let me explain to you the benefits/tax ratio.
[b]Australia:
Their income tax revenue for 2006-2007 is A$185 billion.
http://www.budget.gov.au/2006-07/myefo/html/03_part_3-03.htm Table 7
The benefits input for 2006-2007 is A$144 billion
http://www.budget.gov.au/2006-07/myefo/html/03_part_3-09.htm
Table 14
Benefit/tax ratio: 0.78 (2 dec pl)
Singapore:
Their income tax revenue for 2006 is S$13.8 billion.
http://www.mof.gov.sg/budget_2007/revenue_expenditure/attachment/Revenue_Estimates.pdf
The benefits input for 2006-2007 is S$10.6 billion
http://www.mof.gov.sg/budget_2007/revenue_expenditure/attachment/Expenditure_Estimates.pdf
(Pg 6 of 8 )
Benefit/tax ratio: 0.77 (2 dec pl)
According to the budget of the two governments, for every A$1 of tax the Australians pay, they receive A$0.78 in return. For every S$1 of tax Singaporeans pay, we receive S$0.77 of benefits.
Moreover, Australian's healthcare is free, what about ours? Oh, I forgot that our civil service is one of the highest paid in the world. People don't praise the social and edcuational benefits there for nothing.
I have asked you:
1) to explain your figure of S$149.3 b but you kept pushing the ball to me. Can't you see that I need to have a look at your explanation before I commence my benefit/tax ratio presentation??
I can only speculate that you have gotten the wrong figure but are too proud to admit.
2) I genuinely and sincerely ask you to prove the "naysayers" wrong and you mistake it for aggression. Since you have dug out the information, why not carry it through to the end? Perhaps you are afraid of a sinister attack from me.
3) I believe you are trying to corner me by asking me to explain the term "benefits". Well, it's really simple. Refer to my explanation above.
Please do not misunderstand me; I do not argue for the sake of arguing. If I'm wrong, I'm ready to face the truth....unlike you. Have you forgotten my advice to you before? Refer below.
"I have nothing to prove and given any other day, I will still beat you.......for your desire to prove one wrong is greater than your hunger for the truth."
Do try to channel your energy for better uses like responding to my post on HDBs and retirement here.
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=261207
Thanks and appreciate your effort.
[/b]
I am really glad that you have taken up the challenge to put some numbers into your discussion. I have read through what your mentioned above and obviously there are a whole bunch of wrong data which you have quoted. However I am not really interested to go through everyone of them because I personally think it is a waste of time.
My only question to you is.
Are you sure the total benefit Singaporeans gain from the government is S$10.6 billion -
just take a look at australia income tax level and you will find the answer.Originally posted by Jontst78:Won't it suffice to say that the less you earn the more you benefit from the free medical, education etc...? The lower income pay almost no tax over there isn't it? -
I have really got to hand it to you. Just a "waste of time" 3 worder and you think you can brush everything off.Originally posted by Gazelle:Rock_star,
I am really glad that you have taken up the challenge to put some numbers into your discussion. I have read through what your mentioned above and obviously there are a whole bunch of wrong data which you have quoted. However I am not really interested to go through everyone of them because I personally think it is a waste of time.
My only question to you is.
Are you sure the total benefit Singaporeans gain from the government is S$10.6 billion
Since you say it's "a bunch of wrong data", it's your onus to prove everything that you contest, wrong. Duh.
Why haven't you given a reasonable answer as to your figure of S$149.3 billion?
Meanwhile, I am amazed at some of the past threads that you have posted.
-
You mean you didnt realise that you have included company/corporate tax as income tax revenue?Originally posted by Rock^Star:I have really got to hand it to you. Just a "waste of time" 3 worder and you think you can brush everything off.
Since you say it's "a bunch of wrong data", it's your onus to prove everything that you contest, wrong. Duh.
Why haven't you given a reasonable answer as to your figure of S$149.3 billion?
Meanwhile, I am amazed at some of the past threads that you have posted.
And please answer my question, are you sure that the total benefit singaporeans gain from the government is S$10.6 b? If you cant be sure, dont you agree that whatever ratio you are showing us are meaningless? -
Aussie Tax rates for 2007-08
Taxable income Tax on this income
$0 – $6,000 Nil
$6,001 – $30,000 15c for each $1 over $6,000
$30,001 - $75,000 $3,600 plus 30c for each $1 over $30,000
$75,001 – $150,000 $17,100 plus 40c for each $1 over $75,000
Over $150,000 $47,100 plus 45c for each $1 over $150,000
Hmmm... so the less you earn, the more you benefit from the free healthcare, education etc...
A way out of the poverty cycle, definately, the rest is up to the will of the indiviudal I guess.