Just to Look Good, Singapore Signs On...
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It is not about being ''dead set against the PAP'', or about being ''damn if you do, damn if don't''.
It used to be so...... until we have ppl here who can't agree with anything the Govt do. Few weeks ago, so many here was questioning the power of the ISA.... saying that it should be remove from the law and that it could be abuse.
It is about blatant dishonesty and hypocritical behaviour that blemish the honor and good name of Singapore with the hypocritical politics at work.
When I state my view that I support the ISA as a way to defence against Terrorist, I was flamed by soooo many Sage about human right abuse that could have happen... etc. And YET when the newest DIY Terrorist of S'pore was detain under the ISA..... no one even 'protest' or even say anything against it
Where are all those ppl who's view were ''I would rather have a Terrorist walking among us... then have a would be innocent man under detaintion'' went to
Therefor if Govt's is being dishonesty and hypocritical..... what about those same ppl here 
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Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:
Sign - wrong
Don't sign - wrong
In other words, some are so dead set against the PAP that whatever it does/doesn't is wrong.
Rather than write so much, be a sage. Preach and practise what you say.Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:
In a situation largely created by the Ruling Party itself - in the manner described by the TS - has the Ruling Party any choice other then be a signatory to ''Non-Violence'' ?
Read my last paragraph. Words alone can't do anything. Changes come when there's interaction.
Edit: I should add that this is just another general statement.
Surely you are not blaming all the ''die hard' critics'' for the cul-de'sac situation that the Ruling Party has found itself in ?
Yes, I agree with you that ''words alone can't do anything. Change come when there's 'interaction' '' - but what kind of 'interaction' do you intend to mean ?
Under the present circumstances, with a government that believes it has the exclusive right to rule as it sees fit, and with its Patriach believing that :
''... between being loved and being feared, I have always blieved Machiavelli was right.
If nobody is afraid of me, I'm meaningless...''
How would you propose to handle a ''Machiavelli's Tiger'' ?
Patience has always been considered a virture, as everything has its own time and place... -
Originally posted by hloc:
Unfortunately, it remains a fact that the government has also abused the use of the Internal Security Act to serve its own political agenda of driving credible and capable Singaporeans from challenging its political supremacy.
It used to be so...... until we have ppl here who can't agree with anything the Govt do. Few weeks ago, so many here was questioning the power of the ISA.... saying that it should be remove from the law and that it could be abuse.
When I state my view that I support the ISA as a way to defence against Terrorist, I was flamed by soooo many Sage about human right abuse that could have happen... etc. And YET when the newest DIY Terrorist of S'pore was detain under the ISA..... no one even 'protest' or even say anything against it
Where are all those ppl who's view were ''I would rather have a Terrorist walking among us... then have a would be innocent man under detaintion'' went to
Therefor if Govt's is being dishonesty and hypocritical..... what about those same ppl here
There were many honest and abled Singaporeans in the past who have been incarcerated for their political stands, and falsely accused of being a threat to the security of Singapore - on the same threat level as those incarcerated for mixing their ''Religion with their brand of Politics''.
In any case, with so many legislation that make Singapore almost air tight, are there no other legislations - besides the ISA - that the Government can use to prosecute those caught for attempting to plant bombs in Singapore ?
Even with the seeming checks to any abuse in the use of the ISA, such checks are dubious when the checks are made by appointees all of whom are selected by the government . -
Originally posted by ShutterBug:No, I'd rather they be themselves and not act Saintly...
Basically, stop the masquerade...
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My POINT is that the same ppl who is refering the Govt as a Hypocrite, are themselve Hypocrite too.....Originally posted by Atobe:Unfortunately, it remains a fact that the government has also abused the use of the Internal Security Act to serve its own political agenda of driving credible and capable Singaporeans from challenging its political supremacy.
There were many honest and abled Singaporeans in the past who have been incarcerated for their political stands, and falsely accused of being a threat to the security of Singapore - on the same threat level as those incarcerated for mixing their ''Religion with their brand of Politics''.
In any case, with so many legislation that make Singapore almost air tight, are there no other legislations - besides the ISA - that the Government can use to prosecute those caught for attempting to plant bombs in Singapore ?
Even with the seeming checks to any abuse in the use of the ISA, such checks are dubious when the checks are made by appointees all of whom are selected by the government .
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I disagree that the ISA have been used to stop people from challenging Govt's political supremacy. If that is true..... then won't all Opps already be inside And yet that clown CSJ is still roaming around. And we here..... still air our views as Pro, Anti or Neutral. BUT I do AGREE that the ISA had been used for their own agenda. But no more than any other Govt would from any other Countries....... remember its political. Remember the CIA report about WMD from US just before the 2nd Gulf War
Are the checks dubious or not..... again depend very much on your own view. If you have no trust in the system...... no matter who is the appointees assign to do the check, u would still be unhappy. It is a fact, that if that appointees criticize the system..... many here would agree with him even if no prove could be shown. But if that appointees was to say that the system was not abused.... many here would just say that the appointees were under Govt's control, pay, threat..... etc. Again a 'Damn if you do, damn if you don't' situation..... -
Agreed. The media just refuse to highlight those cases and remind people of them because the mass media is under their control...Originally posted by Atobe:Unfortunately, it remains a fact that the government has also abused the use of the Internal Security Act to serve its own political agenda of driving credible and capable Singaporeans from challenging its political supremacy.
There were many honest and abled Singaporeans in the past who have been incarcerated for their political stands, and falsely accused of being a threat to the security of Singapore - on the same threat level as those incarcerated for mixing their ''Religion with their brand of Politics''.
In any case, with so many legislation that make Singapore almost air tight, are there no other legislations - besides the ISA - that the Government can use to prosecute those caught for attempting to plant bombs in Singapore ?
Even with the seeming checks to any abuse in the use of the ISA, such checks are dubious when the checks are made by appointees all of whom are selected by the government . -
Originally posted by hloc:
Noted.
My POINT is that the [b]same ppl who is refering the Govt as a Hypocrite, are themselve Hypocrite too.....
I disagree that the ISA have been used to stop people from challenging Govt's political supremacy. If that is true..... then won't all Opps already be inside And yet that clown CSJ is still roaming around. And we here..... still air our views as Pro, Anti or Neutral. BUT I do AGREE that the ISA had been used for their own agenda. But no more than any other Govt would from any other Countries....... remember its political. Remember the CIA report about WMD from US just before the 2nd Gulf War
Are the checks dubious or not..... again depend very much on your own view. If you have no trust in the system...... no matter who is the appointees assign to do the check, u would still be unhappy. It is a fact, that if that appointees criticize the system..... many here would agree with him even if no prove could be shown. But if that appointees was to say that the system was not abused.... many here would just say that the appointees were under Govt's control, pay, threat..... etc. Again a 'Damn if you do, damn if you don't' situation..... [/b] -
Originally posted by hloc:
Of all the spineless stick your head in the ground doesn't even read the newspapers indulge in double speaking defends the Govt in the name of patriotism.........
My POINT is that the [b]same ppl who is refering the Govt as a Hypocrite, are themselve Hypocrite too.....
I disagree that the ISA have been used to stop people from challenging Govt's political supremacy. If that is true..... then won't all Opps already be inside And yet that clown CSJ is still roaming around. And we here..... still air our views as Pro, Anti or Neutral. BUT I do AGREE that the ISA had been used for their own agenda. But no more than any other Govt would from any other Countries....... remember its political. Remember the CIA report about WMD from US just before the 2nd Gulf War
Are the checks dubious or not..... again depend very much on your own view. If you have no trust in the system...... no matter who is the appointees assign to do the check, u would still be unhappy. It is a fact, that if that appointees criticize the system..... many here would agree with him even if no prove could be shown. But if that appointees was to say that the system was not abused.... many here would just say that the appointees were under Govt's control, pay, threat..... etc. Again a 'Damn if you do, damn if you don't' situation..... [/b] -
Originally posted by Atobe:
What do you think by what kind of interaction I meant? The current state of Singapore - most of us don't care. For those who care, other than words, it's still words that I see.
In a situation largely created by the Ruling Party itself - in the manner described by the TS - has the Ruling Party any choice other then be a signatory to ''Non-Violence'' ?
Surely you are not blaming all the ''die hard' critics'' for the cul-de'sac situation that the Ruling Party has found itself in ?
Yes, I agree with you that ''words alone can't do anything. Change come when there's [b]'interaction' '' - but what kind of 'interaction' do you intend to mean ?
Under the present circumstances, with a government that believes it has the exclusive right to rule as it sees fit, and with its Patriach believing that :
''... between being loved and being feared, I have always blieved Machiavelli was right.
If nobody is afraid of me, I'm meaningless...''
How would you propose to handle a ''Machiavelli's Tiger'' ?
Patience has always been considered a virture, as everything has its own time and place...
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Filling up feedback form for community centres to improve - OK. But why not start from ourselves first? For example, there is a lack of tables and chairs. Filling up a feedback form to tell them that it's lacking is good. But we shouldn't rely on them. We could for example, sit around the void decks that's near the CC. Or bring back the kampung spirit, bring our chairs or stools.
It's this NATO attitude that we have that made PAP fearless. In Grace Fu's talk at RP, she was bold enough to say that the government won't be afraid that all rising costs will make the voters cast the votes to the other parties.
It already showed a lot, not just the government's attitude, it's the people's attitudes as well. If we just say say only and don't do, this is what we get.
With such people, we will get such a government. NATO people and its NATO government.
If we are more reactive and interactive, would today's Singapore be different? Chances are that we will be. -
woah bait and switch... (trying to change the subject) Will not work in an open forum... gahmen controlled press and mass media, maybe....Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:What do you think by what kind of interaction I meant? The current state of Singapore - most of us don't care. For those who care, other than words, it's still words that I see.
Filling up feedback form for community centres to improve - OK. But why not start from ourselves first? For example, there is a lack of tables and chairs. Filling up a feedback form to tell them that it's lacking is good. But we shouldn't rely on them. We could for example, sit around the void decks that's near the CC. Or bring back the kampung spirit, bring our chairs or stools.
It's this NATO attitude that we have that made PAP fearless. In Grace Fu's talk at RP, she was bold enough to say that the government won't be afraid that all rising costs will make the voters cast the votes to the other parties.
It already showed a lot, not just the government's attitude, it's the people's attitudes as well. If we just say say only and don't do, this is what we get.
With such people, we will get such a government. NATO people and its NATO government.
If we are more reactive and interactive, would today's Singapore be different? Chances are that we will be. -
No, all of us are the same as the government, a NATO country.Originally posted by hloc:My POINT is that the [b]same ppl who is refering the Govt as a Hypocrite, are themselve Hypocrite too... -
Huh?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:woah bait and switch... (trying to change the subject) Will not work in an open forum... gahmen controlled press and mass media, maybe.... -
Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:
It is not the NATO attitude of Singaporeans that have embolden the Ruling Party.
What do you think by what kind of interaction I meant? The current state of Singapore - most of us don't care. For those who care, other than words, it's still words that I see.
Filling up feedback form for community centres to improve - OK. But why not start from ourselves first? For example, there is a lack of tables and chairs. Filling up a feedback form to tell them that it's lacking is good. But we shouldn't rely on them. We could for example, sit around the void decks that's near the CC. Or bring back the kampung spirit, bring our chairs or stools.
It's this NATO attitude that we have that made PAP fearless. In Grace Fu's talk at RP, she was bold enough to say that the government won't be afraid that all rising costs will make the voters cast the votes to the other parties.
It already showed a lot, not just the government's attitude, it's the people's attitudes as well. If we just say say only and don't do, this is what we get.
With such people, we will get such a government. NATO people and its NATO government.
If we are more reactive and interactive, would today's Singapore be different? Chances are that we will be.
It is their ultimate knowledge that they have 82 seats in Parliament - (with half of it taken uncontested due to walk-over - that allow them to change the system as they see fit so as to keep themselves in power) that has embolden them.
It is NOT the NATO attitude of Singaporeans that have done ourselves in, it is the ''Kiasu and Kiasee'' attitude of Singaporeans that have allowed the Ruling Party to continuously abuse Singaporeans by manipulating the Constitution, the Electoral System and holding Singaporeans' Future under threat.
Singaporeans have participated in at least two rounds of ''Talking'' - after the 1987, 1997 and 2002 Economic Downturn, when Economic Reviews were set up with multiple sub-committees tasked to gather feedback from Singaporeans who cared.
At each of this Economic Sub-committee, PM LHL had chaired each one since his first entry into the Political Limelight in the 1980s - and his most infamous remark was : ''we have turned over every stone, studied it, and carefully placed each stone back in its original place; as it is best not to disturb these stones''.....
Who do you think is doing all the NATO acts ?
Yes, of course, LHL is also a Singaporean.... the Number ONE NATO actor ??? -
Originally posted by hloc:
Unfortunately, quoting LKY's aggressive retort to the impudence of a University Student - '' How old are you ? Where were you when the Marxist Plot burst out over the heads of the Catholic Church ? ''
My POINT is that the [b]same ppl who is refering the Govt as a Hypocrite, are themselve Hypocrite too.....
I disagree that the ISA have been used to stop people from challenging Govt's political supremacy. If that is true..... then won't all Opps already be inside And yet that clown CSJ is still roaming around. And we here..... still air our views as Pro, Anti or Neutral. BUT I do AGREE that the ISA had been used for their own agenda. But no more than any other Govt would from any other Countries....... remember its political. Remember the CIA report about WMD from US just before the 2nd Gulf War
Are the checks dubious or not..... again depend very much on your own view. If you have no trust in the system...... no matter who is the appointees assign to do the check, u would still be unhappy. It is a fact, that if that appointees criticize the system..... many here would agree with him even if no prove could be shown. But if that appointees was to say that the system was not abused.... many here would just say that the appointees were under Govt's control, pay, threat..... etc. Again a 'Damn if you do, damn if you don't' situation..... [/b]
If you are not aware of the abuse of the ISA against the Opposition Members - try Googling - if you have not already clicked on all the references that I have given in my recent posts.
Is there any point of discussion if you will not educate yourself, but prefer to absorb Singapore History as carefull prepared for your digestion; resulting in your expected perception of everyone who criticise the Government and the Ruling Party as ''die-die must criticise'' no brainers ? -
Going by your logic, are you suggesting the Holocaust is actually a myth since there're still Jews roaming around on this planet?Originally posted by hloc:I disagree that the ISA have been used to stop people from challenging Govt's political supremacy. If that is true..... then won't all Opps already be inside -
Originally posted by hloc:
ISA has been used much less often lately, with regards to political supremacy, but still used. Was with the subject about all opposition being locked up, well its highy probable that the Singapore Govt has to maintain some semblence of being fair and just, due it Singapore having a much higher visibility in the international arena. Imagine what will the Govt look like if it locked up all the anti PAP challengers.
My POINT is that the [b]same ppl who is refering the Govt as a Hypocrite, are themselve Hypocrite too.....
I disagree that the ISA have been used to stop people from challenging Govt's political supremacy. If that is true..... then won't all Opps already be inside And yet that clown CSJ is still roaming around. And we here..... still air our views as Pro, Anti or Neutral. BUT I do AGREE that the ISA had been used for their own agenda. But no more than any other Govt would from any other Countries....... remember its political. Remember the CIA report about WMD from US just before the 2nd Gulf War
Are the checks dubious or not..... again depend very much on your own view. If you have no trust in the system...... no matter who is the appointees assign to do the check, u would still be unhappy. It is a fact, that if that appointees criticize the system..... many here would agree with him even if no prove could be shown. But if that appointees was to say that the system was not abused.... many here would just say that the appointees were under Govt's control, pay, threat..... etc. Again a 'Damn if you do, damn if you don't' situation..... [/b]
There were some lower profile targets like Robert Ho(I think is his name). Then again all the detainees under ISA have not have the evidence agianst them independently verifed. Which brings me to the system of government, again there are no checks on the Government that are by independent from the government.
How does the fact that EDB was not audited in 46 years, sit with you? How about GIC? Temasek? When was the last time these organisations were audited by external auditors, or even the AGO, with the audit findings made public? They shoud be made public, due to the fact that they are using public funds.