Singapore Economy underfunded compared to military
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unless u think the Govt is dumb..enuff just to buy onli jetplaneOriginally posted by kenhor:Terrorism is not new. It has been around since the time of the persian empire. How one kingdom had some kind of assasins willing to kill and die for their king.
We see plenty of terrorists .. be it in Belfast, Columbia, Philippines, India, USA and now even in neighbouring countries. How to win?
Well, we have to see what they want. And see if we are willing to sacrifice to get peace.
In Isreal, there was a land for peace program .. but failed as the hardline jews could not accept it.
In Belfast, there is now more or less peace, with N.Ireland giving into some demands of the catholics
We are waiting for peace in Sri Lanka, if only the Singhaless allow for a seperate homeland for the tamils.
In our case, the al qaeda is not out to get us. They are out to hit usa's interests by causing terror in Singapore and maybe Malaysia. How to prevent it? Well, thats the job of the government. . they are paid millions to find a solution. But I can tell you, buying aircraft is not a solution.
so is the solution solve for terrorism??
is there a attack in SG??
no rite?
so the govt have not done anything abt fighting terrorism n reviving economic..is tat wat u mean? -
Originally posted by kenhor:
you confuse FL with FT and its not just a matter of semantics. Foreign Labour are much more easily recruited than Foreign Talents... They come mainly due to Push factors back home.
Government policy gone wrong with FT.
What is the purpose of FT? The correct purpose of FT is
a) To do work that Singaporeans DO NOT WANT to do or is to LOWLY paid to do. Like Maids, road sweepers etc
Foreign Talents will come mainly because of Pull factors here. They won't go where there are no perks for them.b) To TEACH us how to do things that we do not know how to do as yet.
and by teach, you should know that it is a process and all processes takes time! you can't tell someone "o.k. teach me how to be a world class technopreneur/fund manager/scientist so i can change the world tomorrow!"
i like learning from them and to be honest, i have learnt a lot from them. it will take at least one generation for the lessons to be adapted for the local context. don't condemn them just because u have a lousy ang-moh boss or u're not willing to open your mind.
learning is not an event. its an experience. don't blame ang-mohs for not saying "hey, i'm gonna teach u this today" because nobody does that outside the classroom!c) If we do not have the people in a important field, FT are needed so as to ensure that the industry can still grow.
which is true. we don't have enough in some industries.But this trend has also creeped up to affect CAPITAL intensive industries (like call centres, programming and IT Support) And now both skilled and unskilled workers are being thrown out of work. People want the job also can not get because FT is cheaper. So policy a) failed
ha ha... i don't like all manners of FTs as well, but for very different reasons... because some of them are overrated and over-paid... Expats? Cheaper? get outta here...c) No need to say this policy failed as FT are being inserted even in fields that they are not needed like banking, manufacturing & IT, in which we have plenty of willing and able people to do the work. But greedy bosses need the FT to keep costs low.
again, you confuse FL with FT... its a painful transitional process but you can't be stuck in a low-cost manufacturing economy forever... H.K faces the same problems... people are moving plants to shenzhen cos of cheaper costs. they have to find new niche to survive.For MNCs, its a different policy. Dr Mati of Malaysia has carped about the new colonialsizm. I thought he is talking to just Malaysians .. but it seems he is talking also to singaporeans.
Dr. Mat also had to re-assure MNCs that there would be no restrictions on the number of expats they can bring in as long as they're willing to invest. case in point: microsoft. They don't have the pool of educated programmers and engineers and he knows it.We live in a country where our economy is NOT big enough to be self sustaining. we need to sell to our neighbouring countries and we need FDI. Hence, we need the good graces of the MNCs. Hence it will be very easy for expats to put whoever they want into Singapore. Australia has a tougher policy on jobs than Singapore (even for fellow whites) I was told that if a position open in Sydney, and american can not be sent to that position unless they can not find a suitable australian for the job, even if the company is an American MNC. In singapore, where got such policy.
that is why it will be economic suicide if u insulate your economy from outside influences. U can't do that anymore! u see, if that position in sydney cannot be filled by a local, it will still go to a foreigner! if a local fills it and screws up, it still goes to a foreigner! the labour markets is globalised too. nobody has a strictly local labour market anymore.We also allow our womenfolk to be subject to the rape and molest of the white expat (who 90% will not marry our girls after having a good time with them)
and you would lock up your sisters and daughters in the basement and make them cover themselves head to toe when they go out????? it takes 2 to clap... its not solely the fault of the expats. if the trashy SPG wants to have it on with expats, u thank them cos it keeps them away from the respectable women.We suppport their home country foreign policy blindly (remember how we had to be pro_america during that incident with China shooting down the USA spy plane)and become their overseers for their businesses in SEA.
not much else we could have done wouldn't u say? support china? for what??? we pretty much stood on the sideline ready to help mediate if called upon to do so.
that, is the people's fault. ask anyone who voted in the last elections and ask those who voted PAP WHY???
So what have we become? we are independant from tryanny of the Malaysians but we are now under different masters. We don't even vote 75% of the time.So all this ranting is this .. if the govt fail in their FT policy and don't even admit it, how can we be sure that their policy of buying white elephants is true?
nice rhetoric. doesn't work. 2 different matter. u wanna prove your white elephant theory, prove it with facts that shows we don't have a credible defence force. don't draw an obscure linkage. see... if i screwed up once, going by your logic, it would mean that i screwed up everywhere... doesn't make sense. -
how can u be so sure..tat the money goin into economy is less den military??Originally posted by kenhor:I am not saying that the government is doing NOTHING. I am saying that the government piority is wrong and that the ECONOMY is UNDERFUNDED compared to the amount of resources put into the MILITARY.
I am also challenging those who think that we can still afford to fund our military in the same way. I want people here to think and question on what better use of the money in other parts.
You buy less one squardon of fighter jets or less 1 submarine .. see what we can do with the 500 million saved.
so its better to ask the govt to pump more money into the economy..so as to revive it...when the whole world is goin into economic halt??
no one owns us a living -
To nathan,
One must wonder what cause that Malay guy to work for al qaeda. To be able to prevent terrorism is to prevent our own citizens (of all races, religions and backgrounds) from hurting our own country.
Is he alone? Are there other poor misguided, hungry buggers who want to kill his fellow citizen? What drives him to hate his own countryman .. if our govt can answer it, they can deprive terrorist cells from happening here. -
up there u were toking abt Al Queda is onli targetting the USOriginally posted by kenhor:To nathan,
One must wonder what cause that Malay guy to work for al qaeda. To be able to prevent terrorism is to prevent our own citizens (of all races, religions and backgrounds) from hurting our own country.
Is he alone? Are there other poor misguided, hungry buggers who want to kill his fellow citizen? What drives him to hate his own countryman .. if our govt can answer it, they can deprive terrorist cells from happening here.
but now ur telling me that certain fellow is poor n misguided tat turn into a terrorist all of sudden becos the Govt have not treat him nice enuff..so the govt is not doin anything in the psylogical defence?? y u so sure?
if any govt in tis world can prevent a terrorist cell to grow in its homeland..den it must be a perfect govt..super duper perfect..how many peaceful years has past since the last bombing in SG??
how many years??
the govt have the answer even u have the answer..he is misguided
n now he is caught
where can u find a perfect country tat has no trouble?? -
lets go back to the very basis of the laissez faire economy: adam smith.
what is the role of the gorvernment in such an economy??? negligible.
we don't have a 100% free economy, but people are already raising hell that the gov'ts presence in the form of GLC is hindering entrepreneurship.
what would u have them do then? implement massive public work projects to inject capital into the economy? what for? u end up employing more banglas and the long term effect of this is INFLATION!
give money to startups to encourage entrepreneurs? already done. give money to train, re-train older workers? already done. give money to companies to buy new equipment? already done also! give money to the people? u never got NSS
reduce income taxes? already done!
what is your argument here? that the ping-pong team is not singaporean? that we don't have a class of bohemian hippies patronising the art scene? that some white trash ang-moh are screwing SPGs?
find the root of the cause of terrorism? good luck. you don't seem easily convinced that you're stirring shit for nothing... u think they'll just stop believing just cos u tell them to?
its tragic that many people lost their jobs of late but i say do something about it instead of just blaming the gov't, uncle sam, globalisation and god. -
To CX,
I agree with you on the defination of FT and FL.
A) is a FL.
B) is for FT
C) is a grey area.
So you are agreeing with me on a)
Now lets look at b) Teaching locals. Understand this. Singapore has been under british rule for long time. Our people already know how to do business. We are not some communist country like vietnam that need 1 generation to catch up. So I have to strongly disagree with you that we need that long to learn from the FT
Sorry .. FL is cheaper .. FT is expensive .. so all these companies are suppressing costs by hiring FL.
Yeah .. but Singapore has not moved into higher value service industries. We are still in manufacturing, and the latest attempt of moving into biotech is not bearing fruit yet. So in the mean time, we local workers get cut off with our greedy businessmen hiring FL to keep costs down.
There is plenty of visa restrictions in Malaysia .. so not so easy for them to get PR and change jobs. They are hired by microsoft, they stay in microsoft. They quit, they have to leave the country. Much better for local there than over here .. some company hire FL or FT, they get PR within 12 months, and then they can compete with fresh grads for jobs all over the place.
Yes on that Australian case, but the case is that there is a law to at least consider a local first .. there is none here. I hear how some foreign bank is now full of indian expan as their new india-mari boss is bringing in all his kaki from munbai to fill up all the positions.
We did not sit on the sideline .. we had to allow the USA to land their aircraft carrier here .. not really neutral are we?
My rhetoric is the same one used by the government, we, the PAP were correct in the past, we are correct in everything else now. Sorry, since I am a product of our system, I will have to use the same logic that they have been spoon feeding us for 2 generations.
My logic does not make sense to you, but neither is the government policy of never letting us question its intentions.
You are are good person to debate with. I did post my other responses on why I feel the govt is underdeveloping our economy and youth. Feel free to debate. Cheers. -
To nathan
That person was willing to blow up a MRT station. I am not sure if his original plan was just the Isreali embassy or the USA embassy. But what drives such a person?
As I said, the government has to find out how to prevent it from happening. Buying a bunch of new planes is not going to prevent this kind of terrorism from happening. -
To CX,
You said, "lets go back to the very basis of the laissez faire economy: adam smith. what is the role of the gorvernment in such an economy??? negligible. we don't have a 100% free economy, but people are already raising hell that the gov'ts presence in the form of GLC is hindering entrepreneurship. what would u have them do then? implement massive public work projects to inject capital into the economy? what for? u end up employing more banglas and the long term effect of this is INFLATION! "
Wrong. I already said my suggestions .. allow true businessmen to form competitors to the state run companies .. how come Silk air is the second airline and thus saturating the market and preventing any one from going on head to head with SIA. Same goes for Singtel and DBS .. it is not inflation.
You said, "give money to startups to encourage entrepreneurs? already done. give money to train, re-train older workers? already done. give money to companies to buy new equipment? already done also! give money to the people? u never got NSS reduce income taxes? already done! "
Answer is above
You said, "what is your argument here? that the ping-pong team is not singaporean? that we don't have a class of bohemian hippies patronising the art scene? that some white trash ang-moh are screwing SPGs? "
My answer is how come we screwed the entire sports scene in Singapore. We have made Singaporeans totally apathetic towards sports by importing FTs. We have not use this FT to develop home grown talent. We have no young, up and coming artist, cartoonist, etc .. what funds is the govt putting here?
You said, "find the root of the cause of terrorism? good luck. you don't seem easily convinced that you're stirring shit for nothing... u think they'll just stop believing just cos u tell them to? "
I am here to stir shit. I am here to let people have a breath of fresh air. I am here to have people THINK for themselves. I am not here to keep on going on and on about how many missiles can the JSF shoot per minute.
You said, "its tragic that many people lost their jobs of late but i say do something about it instead of just blaming the gov't, uncle sam, globalisation and god. "
Yes .. thats why I am attacking the sacred cows. Our government told us in the last election that no sacred cow will be spared. They have since moved on to other issues (like allowing for more bar top dancing) so I have to bring out this cow to be sacrificed.
We have to think. -
so the has govt bought a bunch of new planes yet??Originally posted by kenhor:To nathan
That person was willing to blow up a MRT station. I am not sure if his original plan was just the Isreali embassy or the USA embassy. But what drives such a person?
As I said, the government has to find out how to prevent it from happening. Buying a bunch of new planes is not going to prevent this kind of terrorism from happening.
read my post again up there...how u gona prevent a bugger frm becoming bad..if he wans too?
so has any bombing started in SG for now?(lets hope not in the future)
the jetpplane is bought to fight against enemy we noe...intelligence is use to fight both terrorist n enemy who is coming to invade us...
as ive have said..y r u so sure the govt have not done anything abt terrorism in SG?? -
Read this carefully before u comment about singapore's effort in combating terrorist:
Counter Terrorist Force
In March 1997, Singapore formally announced the existence of a unit responsible for counter-terrorist operations within its commando forces - 13 years after it was secretly formed. The Special Operations Force (SOF) is a company-sized unit with three operational platoons. It is an independent element under the army's Commando Headquarters.
Singapore acknowledges that the SOF dealt with a 1991 aircraft hijacking incident at Singapore's Changi Airport. All 188 passengers were rescued unhurt; the four hijackers were killed.
Together with commando training, SOF personnel undergo a specialized eight month counter-terrorist course. They are known to have trained with their US and UK counterparts and perhaps with other similar units such as Australia's Special Air Service Regiment
This article already tells u that singapore is well prepared in case of a terrorist attack way before sept 11 2001 incident -
To orkwarrior and Nathan,
Good reading about the special squad that we have to DEAL WITH TERRORISTS WHO LAND THE PLANE. However, USA also has that. It can not prevent September 11 from happening. It can not prevent people who want to die (note .. not willing to die for the cause .. but WANT TO DIE for the cause .. there is a difference)
I think the govt is doing something. (It better be) But like I said, a way to dealing with terrorist is to find out what they want and deny it to them. (or to give it to them, depending on who these terrorist are)
What does the terrorist want to do in Singapore? Well, my personal guess is to kill americans (and I am also in danger for I work in a very famous USA MNC) and Isrealis. Why? Because of the perceived crimes against their group. How to prevent? You tell me .. but buying new planes will not be a solution. -
u dun get it do u...if we noe wat the govt is doin..den y not invite the terrorist in for a chat rite...u toking abt terrorist not invasionOriginally posted by kenhor:To orkwarrior and Nathan,
Good reading about the special squad that we have to DEAL WITH TERRORISTS WHO LAND THE PLANE. However, USA also has that. It can not prevent September 11 from happening. It can not prevent people who want to die (note .. not willing to die for the cause .. but WANT TO DIE for the cause .. there is a difference)
I think the govt is doing something. (It better be) But like I said, a way to dealing with terrorist is to find out what they want and deny it to them. (or to give it to them, depending on who these terrorist are)
What does the terrorist want to do in Singapore? Well, my personal guess is to kill americans (and I am also in danger for I work in a very famous USA MNC) and Isrealis. Why? Because of the perceived crimes against their group. How to prevent? You tell me .. but buying new planes will not be a solution.
tis 2 THINGS R DIFFERENT!!!
u asking me how to prevent?? how the hell i noe? im not the govt..btw i never ask u how to prevent??
since when i did?
if the govt is doin something y cook it up agin n again again abt y the hell the govt is doin this n that things which u dun seem rite to u??
my fren do u noe that im repeating wat ive said for the last few post?
u wan to prevent a plane frm crashing into a building?? get more intelligence..step up security..let the pple noes that the military is doin their job..so they can have a nice slp at nite
n a peaceful dream to noe they r safe
i say it one more time...have SG kena attack yet??
have we kena attack yet?
did ISD arrest the 18 terrorist?? did they??
they did rite..they done their job -
kenhor:
Continuous military expenditure is required to ensure that our armed forces remain on par with our neighbors. Obsolete and aging equipment must be replaced, and new capabilities acquired just to keep up. It is a treadmill. This is the price of security. You can call it an arms race if you like -- same difference.
While we have one of the highest per GDP expenditures on defense and one of the highest per capita GDPs in the world, our defense expenditure is actually quite low, due to our low population. $4b a year really is not that much, and I never cease to be amazed at how much is done on this shoestring budget. Our military and intelligence apparatus are very well-adapted to its mission, including counterterrorism and external defense against likely agressors. I have no complaints about how the money has been spent.
You advocate spending this money instead on the economy. How? This is not a stupid question, since "spending money on the economy" is not an obvious concept. You propose handouts for local businessmen. This will create moral hazard and destroy their incentive to excel -- we are not Malaysia (no offense to our neighbors). You propose reducing the chilling effect that GLCs have on entrepreneurship. The government does not give the GLCs free money, by the way. The GLCs compete freely and fairly, and dominate the market through excellence and economies of scale. Singapore is one of the friendliest countries for SMEs (small-medium enterprises), with affordable capital, accomodating laws and good infrastructure. The reason why large enterprises find it hard to compete in Singapore is not because of government interference, but because they just do not make the cut. The telecoms market (M1, StarHub, etc.) is one of the few sectors where they did manage to compete -- and it looks OK to me.
So where will this money be spent? As a previous poster points out, the government already spends extensively on infrastructure and training -- more and better than any other country I have seen. A tax cut is possible, but Singaporean taxes (including indirect taxes like COE and ERP) are already one of the lowest in the world. This means that a tax cut would greatly reduce our defensive capabilities for only a tiny economic stimulus. If anything, our military expenditure is simply on top of our government's already extensive and prudent expenditures on the economy.
You seem to have a problem with foreign talent. The government did not "create" foreign talent, by the way. It exists out there regardless of whether you like it or not. It is just a fact of life that there are people out there who are better than Singaporeans and willing (in some cases) to work for less pay. So what do we do about it? Wishing will not make them disappear. We can either welcome them and try to benefit from them, or we can shut them out, either selectively or completely. Shutting them out just means that we will fall further and further behind, as other countries welcome these individuals. You cannot hold back the tide.
In the long run, the solution is for Singaporeans to improve enough to beat these foreign talents in all fields. The government is already spending extensively on education to do this -- more than Singaporeans are able to absorb, in fact. Only so many people can be in school at a time, and Singaporeans are only so smart as a whole. However, as long as Singaporeans harbor your escapist attitude toward the issue of foreign talent, we will never catch up.
You also have a problem with the Singaporean standard of living. A typical middle- to upper-class Singaporean, if he were to go overseas, would be able to own an estate with a mansion, and several cars. We are not poor, it is just that certain things here are expensive. Why is this so? Another poster mentioned supply and demand, and this is the key. Things are expensive here simply because supply is so low. Homes are expensive because the land they need to stand on is in short supply. Cars are expensive because the land they need to drive on is also in short supply. This is just another fact of life. There is nothing that any form of financial stimulus can do to rectify this. Reducing military expenditure will not help anyone get a car. After living in the USA for a total of 10 years, I can say from personal experience that, if anything, it is easier to own a car and a house in Singapore.
I did not mean to sound harsh, and I apologise if I did. However, I am tired of Singaporeans complaining about things that cannot be changed. It is probably due to a lack of basic economics knowledge that Singaporens do not realize they do this.
I really have been enjoying this discussion. Keep it up! -
Why we spend so much??? Just look at what type of neighbour we have??? We need it.
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all i wan to say is: balance both in military budget n economics...u can't have a gd military but have a bad econs. this is the same in visi versa. This is wat the sg gov is trying to do now..
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Now lets look at b) Teaching locals. Understand this. Singapore has been under british rule for long time. Our people already know how to do business. We are not some communist country like vietnam that need 1 generation to catch up. So I have to strongly disagree with you that we need that long to learn from the FT
yes, Sg knows how to do business under the OLD model... business today is not what business was yesterday. its a lot harder, a lot more complex... if the new economy centered on globalisation and IT means business like usual, then why do we have a new name for it?
the fact is, its very different and it impacts all of us in many ways. some more than others and we need to learn from the best to get acquainted with it.Yeah .. but Singapore has not moved into higher value service industries. We are still in manufacturing, and the latest attempt of moving into biotech is not bearing fruit yet. So in the mean time, we local workers get cut off with our greedy businessmen hiring FL to keep costs down.
its all part of the big picture... they can either hire foreign labour or go outta business... globalised labour market... i mentioned that before.
biotech, IT and the other new high tech industries Sg is going into will take time. of course it will. its a radical change. thats why i say, the learning process will take at least one generation.Yes on that Australian case, but the case is that there is a law to at least consider a local first ..
and u would rather they made a law to pay lips service to local concerns, scare foreign investors and would not make a difference anyway? at least the gov't told u the truth this time: that times are tough and times are changing. there is no time to stop the train to allow those who missed it to hop on.We did not sit on the sideline .. we had to allow the USA to land their aircraft carrier here .. not really neutral are we?
their ships have been docking here fo a long, long time now... a bit inconsistent to refuse them just cos u wanna look "independent"... pointless.My rhetoric is the same one used by the government, we, the PAP were correct in the past, we are correct in everything else now. Sorry, since I am a product of our system, I will have to use the same logic that they have been spoon feeding us for 2 generations.
come now... thats just a lazy excuse on your part . they were right in the past, they're doin o.k now, but its up to us, the people, the electorate to assess this "success". the numbers look ok and the alternative is crap so... well...My logic does not make sense to you, but neither is the government policy of never letting us question its intentions.
they are moving away from that... still a long way to go, but freedom of thought and freedom of expression is a process, not an event. you and i and everybody else is part of this process. this could never have happenned 20 years ago. it takes time. u open he flood-gate, u drown. -
My answer is how come we screwed the entire sports scene in Singapore. We have made Singaporeans totally apathetic towards sports by importing FTs. We have not use this FT to develop home grown talent. We have no young, up and coming artist, cartoonist, etc .. what funds is the govt putting here?
i make no apologies to the fact that i am totally apathetic towards sports because i honestly find it unproductive. i don't like the idea of gov't funding sports to begin with.
it doesn't bother me as much as it bothers u that we have no artists, cartoonists and sportsmen.Yes .. thats why I am attacking the sacred cows. Our government told us in the last election that no sacred cow will be spared. They have since moved on to other issues (like allowing for more bar top dancing) so I have to bring out this cow to be sacrificed.
defence isn't merely a sacred cow. its a covenant. i like the way this money is being spent. call it nationalism, jingoism or plain belligerence. i don't like the idea that my motherland is being
f!@#ed around and unable to make an effective response.
i like to be able to shout in their face and say "up yours!" when they go too far and talk about crushing the little red dot. -
I would say that the amount spent in military has paid off. Some years back, PM Goh used the poison shrimp analogy to describe Singapore. Today, we are no longer just a poison shrimp, irritating to any potential aggressor, but we are highly capable of holding our own in any regional war. And how do you think our ministers are able to speak with conviction abroad? Why is it that people bother to listen to a tiny red dot called Singapore? Alot of these have to do with the armed forces of each country, though it is not publicly stated. We have proved we are able carry out the basic duty of defending ourselves. This is very important as it shows capability.
And pls do not mention Japan here, Japan has the most powerful armed forces in the whole of Asia.
In my opinion, the US presence is not needed in Japan to protect it at all. I feel that the world is not ready to forgive Japan for its deeds. It currently still refuses to admit its war crimes. Until that happens, an expansion in the role of Japanese military shouLd not even be considered.
I would also like to add that buying of aircraft to replace our aging A-4SU airframes has been in the pipeline for some time. It is only natural that we should get the best we can afford.(best not only in terms of technology and effectiveness, but also in the entire package with each purchase, for example, the provision of training grounds, technology transfers, etc)
I am also of the opinion that ensuring the sovereignity of Singapore through the maintaining of its defence a capability is more important than having our sportsmen win trophies overseas. However, this is not to say SIngapore ignores the sports scene. It is trying to groom its own sportsmen and also attract foreign talent here. Grooming is done through allowing schools to have extensive sports programmes for people with talent. For example, Anglican High School has a sports class where students there spend alot more time on their sports training and are allowed to make up for lessones later.
Also, the Singapore government is also very willing to spend on its economy, the Suzhou Industrial project, although it ultimately was unsuccessful, demonstrates that. How else can you explain why Singapore was not as affected by the economic crisis in 1997 as compared to our large neighbours.
It is also not appropriate to compare defence spending by size of a country. For example, the US is 15,000 times the size of Singapore, does this mean that the US has to spend 15,000 times the amount Singapore spends on defence? Also, if you were to judge by size, then Canada must have one of the lowest defence budgets in the world.
I would also like a clearer definition of middile class in Malaysia. I visited Penang last year, and the taxi drivers were complaining about their government and telling me and my family how good our government is and we still complain. We would have to look at the majority that forms up their middle class. If it is indeed made up largely of bumiputras who are middle class only or at least largely due to government polices, then this would adversely force the creation of a lower class and divide the races further in an already racially split Malaysia, whose political parties are based not on ideology but more on the race of the people. Such parties include the UMNO (United Malay National Organisation), MCA (Malaysian Chinese Association) and the MIC (Malaysian Indian Congress).
Thus, I am of the opinion that we need to take a closer look before we criticise Singapore and praise the Malaysian government. -
To Nathan,
The Sri Lankan govt and the tamil tigers are going off to Thailand to negotiate peace terms .. after 19 years of terrorism.
The Singhalese will see all those thousands who are dead as they have died for nothing. They will also have to give up huge tracts of land in the NE and E of the country.
For the Tigers .. they did not get independance, but autonomy, for many of the fighters, that was not enough.
But the Norway negotiated peace mandate brokered a middle ground. If both sides accept it, there will be peace.
Such is what I am saying .. some sacrifice needed by both sides for PEACE. And it was achieved not fully through military might. -
To dkhoo,
Welcome .. may you post many more replies here!
Continuous military expenditure is required to ensure that our armed forces remain on par with our neighbors. Obsolete and aging equipment must be replaced, and new capabilities acquired just to keep up. It is a treadmill. This is the price of security. You can call it an arms race if you like -- same difference.
The key word you use is ON PAR .. we have gone beyond on par.
While we have one of the highest per GDP expenditures on defense and one of the highest per capita GDPs in the world, our defense expenditure is actually quite low, due to our low population. $4b a year really is not that much, and I never cease to be amazed at how much is done on this shoestring budget. Our military and intelligence apparatus are very well-adapted to its mission, including counterterrorism and external defense against likely agressors. I have no complaints about how the money has been spent.
The $4 billion you mention is in USD. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sn.html
That is about 4.5% of GDP.
Malaysia is spending $1.7 billion at 2.3% of GDP. (my.html)
Thailand is spending $1.8 billion at 1.7% of GDP. (th.html)
Indonesia is spending $1.3 billion at 1.3% of GDP (id.html)
We are not on shoestring.. we are definately overspending.
You advocate spending this money instead on the economy. How? This is not a stupid question, since "spending money on the economy" is not an obvious concept. You propose handouts for local businessmen. This will create moral hazard and destroy their incentive to excel -- we are not Malaysia (no offense to our neighbors).
I do not propose handouts .. I propose subsidies. For example, the USA has farm subsidies. We can have a healthcare subsidy for private centres catering to the old, the diabitic, the sick. We can have more subsidies for our hdbs .. We can have more funding to churches and other religious centres. We can put extra 4% (courtesy of govt) into our epf while our companies are facing this difficult time .. anything.. to make our personal life better. It saddens me to hear that our CPF is not enough for our old to live out their old age with, it saddens me to see old people working in mcdonalds.
You propose reducing the chilling effect that GLCs have on entrepreneurship. The government does not give the GLCs free money, by the way. The GLCs compete freely and fairly, and dominate the market through excellence and economies of scale. Singapore is one of the friendliest countries for SMEs (small-medium enterprises), with affordable capital, accomodating laws and good infrastructure. The reason why large enterprises find it hard to compete in Singapore is not because of government interference, but because they just do not make the cut. The telecoms market (M1, StarHub, etc.) is one of the few sectors where they did manage to compete -- and it looks OK to me.
The GLCs are the worst offenders of destroying private business initiative. How many mom and pop grocery shops are left? Is there a price war for our ticket fares (and when there is an increase of our price, can we protest?) And in telecom .. worse .. SingTel has to be forced to give good prices (once telecom market opened up) They were charging US$100k per E1 to USA in 2000, and that price dropped to US$15k in 2001 .. see how much they were gouging the market .. same goes for IDD ... USA carriers were giving them a wholesale rate of US$0.01 per minute even back in 2000. And they charged S$0.38 (since dropped to $0.18 now)
You seem to have a problem with foreign talent. The government did not "create" foreign talent, by the way. It exists out there regardless of whether you like it or not. It is just a fact of life that there are people out there who are better than Singaporeans and willing (in some cases) to work for less pay. So what do we do about it? Wishing will not make them disappear. We can either welcome them and try to benefit from them, or we can shut them out, either selectively or completely. Shutting them out just means that we will fall further and further behind, as other countries welcome these individuals. You cannot hold back the tide.
The USA offers these individuals WORK visas .. they have to stay for a pretty long time before becoming PRs ... I have nothing against people becoming FT. But I sure have problems with people becoming PRs after just 1 year .. especially the P part .. these people are not P in Singapore .. they make their bundle they leave .. they don't want our citizenship. My company once gave our India customer 2 tickets to the NDP. We asked him after the great show if he wants citizenship. He said "Why? India better."
In the long run, the solution is for Singaporeans to improve enough to beat these foreign talents in all fields. The government is already spending extensively on education to do this -- more than Singaporeans are able to absorb, in fact. Only so many people can be in school at a time, and Singaporeans are only so smart as a whole. However, as long as Singaporeans harbor your escapist attitude toward the issue of foreign talent, we will never catch up.
Hello. Our dear FT are not teaching us much .. they ingraine themselves into our economy and society so much that we will not improve .. e.g how many Singapore ping pong or badminton players have improved since we have all the imports? In fact, probably no local want to try and compete against them. Same goes for business .. after all the FT bosses at DBS, when are we getting the next Singaporean in charge?
You also have a problem with the Singaporean standard of living. A typical middle- to upper-class Singaporean, if he were to go overseas, would be able to own an estate with a mansion, and several cars. We are not poor, it is just that certain things here are expensive. Why is this so? Another poster mentioned supply and demand, and this is the key. Things are expensive here simply because supply is so low. Homes are expensive because the land they need to stand on is in short supply. Cars are expensive because the land they need to drive on is also in short supply. This is just another fact of life. There is nothing that any form of financial stimulus can do to rectify this. Reducing military expenditure will not help anyone get a car. After living in the USA for a total of 10 years, I can say from personal experience that, if anything, it is easier to own a car and a house in Singapore.
Yes .. you are right .. we are beggars in our own country. We can afford all this outside our own country but not where we are born, and definately NOT WHERE WE ARE DEFENDING WITH OUR LIVES. What then is our NS for? To defend a country where we are not able to afford cars, condos and golf clubs? To defend a country where 75% of the population can not even vote? Thats why I am writing this thread .. we need to see that the white cows exist while life still suck.
I did not mean to sound harsh, and I apologise if I did. However, I am tired of Singaporeans complaining about things that cannot be changed. It is probably due to a lack of basic economics knowledge that Singaporens do not realize they do this. I really have been enjoying this discussion. Keep it up!
Just as our government says .. we need to sacrifice the sacred cows .. thats my purpose of this thread. I will go it alone if I have to. -
? my fren may i noe y r u posting abt Tamil Tiger n Norwegian freedom fighter all of sudden??Originally posted by kenhor:To Nathan,
The Sri Lankan govt and the tamil tigers are going off to Thailand to negotiate peace terms .. after 19 years of terrorism.
The Singhalese will see all those thousands who are dead as they have died for nothing. They will also have to give up huge tracts of land in the NE and E of the country.
For the Tigers .. they did not get independance, but autonomy, for many of the fighters, that was not enough.
But the Norway negotiated peace mandate brokered a middle ground. If both sides accept it, there will be peace.
Such is what I am saying .. some sacrifice needed by both sides for PEACE. And it was achieved not fully through military might.
in SG also got freedom fighter??
wat u toking abt...we did not say we gona use military might??
i say using intelligence to crack terrorist cell...r we in a big conflict wif another country now??
has the govt done not enuff on security for the country??
so wats ur point?
i ask again..has the country done not enuff for the security in SG?
u tell tat to the NSF guarding the Airport n other security area tat the govt have not done enuff..he will spit in ur face
pls think abt wat the NSF n NSmen have done for security
im not sure if u have been thru NS..but tis kind of feeling abt SG have not done enuff for security is suddening
btw...we r very out of topic
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yes, Sg knows how to do business under the OLD model... business today is not what business was yesterday. its a lot harder, a lot more complex... if the new economy centered on globalisation and IT means business like usual, then why do we have a new name for it? the fact is, its very different and it impacts all of us in many ways. some more than others and we need to learn from the best to get acquainted with it.
Do you really believe what you are writing or just want to post it as a come back to me? If you see half of our FT, they come from third world countries (who are even more in the OLD model.. and alot of them are not really coming with a NEW PARADIGM to teach us. Maybe your MNC is different from mine.
its all part of the big picture... they can either hire foreign labour or go outta business... globalised labour market... i mentioned that before. biotech, IT and the other new high tech industries Sg is going into will take time. of course it will. its a radical change. thats why i say, the learning process will take at least one generation.
To you maybe .. but I can see plenty of other companies around the region that can exist without all this so call FT. But, I guess that the govt chose to invite all these MNCs to set up shop in Singapore, they have to allow them to bring in anyone they like .. after all, the industries that these MNCs set up in Singapore can be easily replicated somewhere else .. our FT policy is about the only thing that is keeping them here.
and u would rather they made a law to pay lips service to local concerns, scare foreign investors and would not make a difference anyway? at least the gov't told u the truth this time: that times are tough and times are changing. there is no time to stop the train to allow those who missed it to hop on.
And thats why we do not have democracy. The voters have a say. In Singapore, the government will do what it THINKS is best for the country, but not willing to consider anyone's else's opinion on the matter. If they tried it in Europe or Australia, the local citizens there will have thrown out the government by now.
their ships have been docking here fo a long, long time now... a bit inconsistent to refuse them just cos u wanna look "independent"... pointless.
Yes .. remember that when China and USA has a conflict and threatens us.
come now... thats just a lazy excuse on your part . they were right in the past, they're doin o.k now, but its up to us, the people, the electorate to assess this "success". the numbers look ok and the alternative is crap so... well...
You are saying the government is also lazy. yes .. I know the standard of opposition is crap .. but that does not mean we have to give carte blance to the government on everything. The white elephants and sacred cows must be questioned and if unneccessary, sacrificed.
they are moving away from that... still a long way to go, but freedom of thought and freedom of expression is a process, not an event. you and i and everybody else is part of this process. this could never have happenned 20 years ago. it takes time. u open he flood-gate, u drown.
They have been "moving" from that for 20 years? Nope .. the last 2001 GE proved you wrong. The govt has not changed much. They believe they know best. They have even brainwashed us to "defend" the sacred cows (and publicly asked us to spare none of it) .. I am not asking for a flood gate to be open. I am asking for the white elephant to be questioned. -
To CX,
i make no apologies to the fact that i am totally apathetic towards sports because i honestly find it unproductive. i don't like the idea of gov't funding sports to begin with. it doesn't bother me as much as it bothers u that we have no artists, cartoonists and sportsmen.
Well, then I guess I came to the wrong forum. The funny thing is that 90% of Malaysians are really ignorant of the military. I was watching their NDP with my Malaysian cousin. A MLRS launcher rolled past. My cousin look blur and asked if that is a lorry for what?
The whole world is not competiting in military hardware. Who excells in sport is often respected more. Like China. Everyone is in awe of the chinese atheletes. Even the Aussies worry about the chinese one day winning more golds than them.
defence isn't merely a sacred cow. its a covenant. i like the way this money is being spent. call it nationalism, jingoism or plain belligerence. i don't like the idea that my motherland is being
f!@#ed around and unable to make an effective response.
i like to be able to shout in their face and say "up yours!" when they go too far and talk about crushing the little red dot.
Our motherland is being F#*&ed around in sports .. I feel the same way about you when we get destroyed in sports. And guess what, sports gets lots more international coverage than military purchases.
And another thing .. we did not develop the planes. Its american. I feel no national pride about our airforce as we have no locally developed plane. Its still american. Unlike the IDF. Or the Brits. Or even the Indians .. they have made their own stuff. They can be proud of showing the hardware off as it is their own design. We are just users.I am proud of our soldiers as it is 100% local. But we have to get rid of the sacred cows. -
To lazer51088
I would say that the amount spent in military has paid off. Some years back, PM Goh used the poison shrimp analogy to describe Singapore. Today, we are no longer just a poison shrimp, irritating to any potential aggressor, but we are highly capable of holding our own in any regional war. And how do you think our ministers are able to speak with conviction abroad? Why is it that people bother to listen to a tiny red dot called Singapore? Alot of these have to do with the armed forces of each country, though it is not publicly stated. We have proved we are able carry out the basic duty of defending ourselves. This is very important as it shows capability.
You know what? We are more than capable of defending ourselves. That is not the question here. The question here is the overkill to fund our military industrial complex. Right now, we have cuts in our cpf, our healthcare, transport costs rising. Is it bad to ask that we cut our defense budget as well?
Also, during the water negotiations, did Malaysia back down from their price increase because of our military? Nope. They still want an increase. Even if we are going "threaten" them with our military, they are stilll going to ASK for a price increase. So in any international negotiations, having the moral high ground is more important than the threat of launching an offnsive attack if your negotiations fail.
And pls do not mention Japan here, Japan has the most powerful armed forces in the whole of Asia.
Yes .. but Japan also has the best healthcare, and economy in Asia. Apples to apples.
In my opinion, the US presence is not needed in Japan to protect it at all. I feel that the world is not ready to forgive Japan for its deeds. It currently still refuses to admit its war crimes. Until that happens, an expansion in the role of Japanese military shouLd not even be considered.
If you did not already notice, the japan culture and economy has already swept over SEA and won. Shit for their military. Their culture and certain lifestyle has made more progress than their army ever could. Can you see how many fashions, electronic equipment and other stuff is influencing us here? How come our singapore lifestyle not being promoted that well in other countries? See .. they have more money to spend on their economy and culture, and people all over asia emulate them.
I would also like to add that buying of aircraft to replace our aging A-4SU airframes has been in the pipeline for some time. It is only natural that we should get the best we can afford.(best not only in terms of technology and effectiveness, but also in the entire package with each purchase, for example, the provision of training grounds, technology transfers, etc)
It can be delayed. Just as our CPF cut is not restored, we can jolly well wait until that happens before getting the upgrade.
I am also of the opinion that ensuring the sovereignity of Singapore through the maintaining of its defence a capability is more important than having our sportsmen win trophies overseas. However, this is not to say SIngapore ignores the sports scene. It is trying to groom its own sportsmen and also attract foreign talent here. Grooming is done through allowing schools to have extensive sports programmes for people with talent. For example, Anglican High School has a sports class where students there spend alot more time on their sports training and are allowed to make up for lessones later.
Well, sorry to disagree with you then. To me, a country glory in the international arena is more important. Anyway, we HAVE ENOUGH to defend ourselves. I am asking for some small increase in the other parts of the economy at the expense of the military. You can disagree .. its your right. Just as its my right to disagree with you. Lucky for you, it seems that this entire forum is on your side. Poor me.
Also, the Singapore government is also very willing to spend on its economy, the Suzhou Industrial project, although it ultimately was unsuccessful, demonstrates that. How else can you explain why Singapore was not as affected by the economic crisis in 1997 as compared to our large neighbours.
Suzhou was money INVESTED in CHINA . OPTUS was money invested into BRITAIN and AUSTRALIA. Singapore was not affected by the economic crisis in 1997 as we did not have overheating economies. However, how come we were in recession in 2001 when our neighbours did not?
It is also not appropriate to compare defence spending by size of a country. For example, the US is 15,000 times the size of Singapore, does this mean that the US has to spend 15,000 times the amount Singapore spends on defence? Also, if you were to judge by size, then Canada must have one of the lowest defence budgets in the world.
I am comparing to Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia. Our budget exceeds all of them. Its unneccessary.
I would also like a clearer definition of middile class in Malaysia. I visited Penang last year, and the taxi drivers were complaining about their government and telling me and my family how good our government is and we still complain.
Funny, I spoke to many Singapore taxi drivers. .. they same the same thing about we Singaporeans.
We would have to look at the majority that forms up their middle class. If it is indeed made up largely of bumiputras who are middle class only or at least largely due to government polices, then this would adversely force the creation of a lower class and divide the races further in an already racially split Malaysia, whose political parties are based not on ideology but more on the race of the people. Such parties include the UMNO (United Malay National Organisation), MCA (Malaysian Chinese Association) and the MIC (Malaysian Indian Congress).
The middle class of Malaysia is growing. Not shrinking. The income gap between our middle class and our upper class is growing. This will lead to much disatisfaction between the haves and have nots. The upper class in Singapore drive cars, live in condos, play golf. They travel overseas, they hire FT to run business for them. The middle class here live in HDB, use MRT, worry about FL taking over their jobs.
In Malaysia .. the antagism is between races, I agree. But in Singapore, its between hearlander and cosmopolitian. I am proposing a solution to improve the lives of the poor. By sacrificing a white elephant.
Thus, I am of the opinion that we need to take a closer look before we criticise Singapore and praise the Malaysian government.
I am not praising the Malaysian government wholeheartedly. I just want us to emulate the best. Don't care who its from. Our government does not know best. Its time to question the existance of the white elephants and sacrifice the sacred cows.