Singapore Economy underfunded compared to military
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bigballs11, there is some problem with your calculation. If you divide S$5 billion over 4 million, the answer is S$1250 and not 125 and therefore it should be around 2% load class of thir economyOriginally posted by bigballs11:Well, the yearly expenditure for red dot defence budget is approx SGD5 billion, divided by our population of 4 million works out about SGD$125/year/head. This compared to our annual GDP of lets say USD$35,000(SGD$61,250)/head works out approx 0.20% load class of our current economy.
In contrast Malaysia yearly defence expenditure is RM12++ billion or SGD6 billion, dividied by their population of 20 million works out about SGD$300/year/head. This compared to their annual GDP of lets say USD$10,000(SGD$17,500)/head works out approx 1.71% load class of their economy.
This shows that the red dot is actually quite stingy in defence, Interesting huh?
Now imagine this, SGD5 billion is split into SGD3 billion for pay and expenses, SGD1 billion for equipment maintance/top-up/bills and left only SGD1 billion for new equipment development and purchase, this sort of money U can't even buy half a B2 bomber, perthatic huh? -
To nathan,
I was trying to show you that to get rid of terrorists, you need to know what they want. We either accomodate (involving sacrifice on both sides) or we destroy them utterly.
But it also goes to show that military force could not destroy them for 19 years. -
Oops
my mistake 
too many zeros 
BTW, a little mistake on Mat land side, their budget is more to RM15 billion, and population is about 18 million, so end up about same same laOriginally posted by silkmagic:bigballs11, there is some problem with your calculation. If you divide S$5 billion over 4 million, the answer is S$1250 and not 125 and therefore it should be around 2% load class of thir economy -
[quote]Originally posted by kenhor:
To lazer51088
[b]And pls do not mention Japan here, Japan has the most powerful armed forces in the whole of Asia.
Yes .. but Japan also has the best healthcare, and economy in Asia. Apples to apples.
Well, sorry to disagree with you then. To me, a country glory in the international arena is more important. Anyway, we HAVE ENOUGH to defend ourselves. I am asking for some small increase in the other parts of the economy at the expense of the military. You can disagree .. its your right. Just as its my right to disagree with you. Lucky for you, it seems that this entire forum is on your side. Poor me.
tats obvious..cos ur wrong
pls be glad on wat u have now..dun ask for anything more
u toking abt the poor?? do u noe wat is the meaning of poor??
poor is tat u dun have enuff money to eat..no place to slp..cant enjoy watching tv..poor?
have u been to India?? have u been to Indonesia?
have u been to any 3rd world n c wat is poor all abt
pls be happy tat u have enuff money to spent n live thru per mth
dun ask for too much... -
oh izit?Originally posted by kenhor:I am not saying that the government is doing NOTHING. I am saying that the government piority is wrong and that the ECONOMY is UNDERFUNDED compared to the amount of resources put into the MILITARY.
I am also challenging those who think that we can still afford to fund our military in the same way. I want people here to think and question on what better use of the money in other parts.
You buy less one squardon of fighter jets or less 1 submarine .. see what we can do with the 500 million saved.
i did not say that the Govt is doin nothing..read carefully at my post
i say not enuff..n tat was frm u..not me
unfunded? y r u so sure?
im askin u one more time...how come u so sure?
u say that the Govt is wrong..so who is rite?
u?...if tats the case..y not give some solution for the Govt now n we can discuss it at the same time
n pls read my post properly..thanx -
I actually been to both India and Indonesia . they do not spend so much money on military .. true India is spening more money than Singapore, but its less in PER CAPITA basis .. 2.5% vs our 4.5%
We are not poor. But our ecomony is supporting a white elephant. We have to get rid of it. Reduce our expenditure in terms of % per capita.
Why want to compare to India and Indonesia when we can compare to Australia or Malaysia? We must compare with the better countries .. not the worst. -
To Nathan,
My solutions are in some of the posts in page 2. Improve healthcare, care for the aged, sports, education, transport hike deffered, subsidize CPF cut etc. -
wait a min here...im saying tis again n againOriginally posted by kenhor:To nathan,
I was trying to show you that to get rid of terrorists, you need to know what they want. We either accomodate (involving sacrifice on both sides) or we destroy them utterly.
But it also goes to show that military force could not destroy them for 19 years.
is SG under attack frm terrorist like Hamas of the Palestine?
or the Tamil Tiger..or watever freedom fighter?
r we?
u r out of point...did i say use military force?
i say use military intelligence..make the rite decision n prevent anything frm happening..so wat izit gotta do wif buying military stuff?
Military can use on both preventing invasion n Terrorist...we can use less of Military equipment on terrorist..but can we use less of it on preventing invasion?
slight changes
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is Msia n Australia better shape den us?Originally posted by kenhor:I actually been to both India and Indonesia . they do not spend so much money on military .. true India is spening more money than Singapore, but its less in PER CAPITA basis .. 2.5% vs our 4.5%
We are not poor. But our ecomony is supporting a white elephant. We have to get rid of it. Reduce our expenditure in terms of % per capita.
Why want to compare to India and Indonesia when we can compare to Australia or Malaysia? We must compare with the better countries .. not the worst.
now u telling me India dun spent less money in military..but how come their country in such a bad state?
i did not say our country is poor...u say help the poor..yes!!
we shld help the poor..but is the majority poor now?
we dun compare? wat im telling u now is be happy wif wat u have now
how much more u wan? a perfect country???
if there is a problem wif the economy..find the problem..
dun pull Military expenditure into it -
there WILL NVR have a perfect country with everything so balance...yes terrorism is a major factor now..but we r not usa.....we still depend on them....n i say we got onli hav human resource for our econs.
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Originally posted by bigballs11:
Well, the yearly expenditure for red dot defence budget is approx SGD5 billion, divided by our population of 4 million works out about SGD$125/year/head. This compared to our annual GDP of lets say USD$35,000(SGD$61,250)/head works out approx 0.20% load class of our current economy.
In contrast Malaysia yearly defence expenditure is RM12++ billion or SGD6 billion, dividied by their population of 20 million works out about SGD$300/year/head. This compared to their annual GDP of lets say USD$10,000(SGD$17,500)/head works out approx 1.71% load class of their economy.
How did you arrive at the RM18 billion defense budget of military per year for Malaysia?
I am looking at the CIA factbook . Singapore spends 4.3 Billion in 2000 and Malaysia spend 1.8 billion .. how they are going to jump from 1.8 to 4.7 billion in 2 years? -
Dear Nathan,
Why so afraid of pulling the military budget into it?
Its a white elephant and must be questioned.
When there are increases in our healthcare and transport and a cut in our cpf .. why can 't we question about our military defence budget?
Mind you .. I am only questioning .. why can't we question? You know of any skeletons in the closet that you can share? -
im not afraid of Military budget being cut...true we have enuff for now...but it will never be enuff for the next 10 years to come..Originally posted by kenhor:Dear Nathan,
Why so afraid of pulling the military budget into it?
Its a white elephant and must be questioned.
When there are increases in our healthcare and transport and a cut in our cpf .. why can 't we question about our military defence budget?
Mind you .. I am only questioning .. why can't we question? You know of any skeletons in the closet that you can share?
ok gotta go now..BBL at nite to discuss wif u again -
I just dun get this. Singapore buys what it needs for defence, but the cap remains at 3% of GDP. So? No big deal, because the money is spent on things that are needed. The sum largely remains similar because things have to be replaced, facilities upgraded. It is already quite amazing how the Government manages to keep the sum under a certain limit given our current capability, but that does not mean for the next 10 years we dun have to buy anything for the military. What you are suggesting is putting the money into the economy, which just doesn't make sense. The money for the military has been calculated and appropriated already, it has no connection at all to our economy. I dun understand why FTs and terrorism is brought into the topic. FTs dun affect the distribution of the money, so lets leave that out. Terrorism. Terrorism cannot be countered by military means at best. It is the role of the ISD and Police to subdue terrorism within our shores.
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Not RM18 billion hor, I say around RM15 billion hor up from RM12 billion because of their latest spending spree.
BTW, you don't take everything in the CIA factbook as gospel words, especially when it come to figures, and not to mention those figure is 2 years back. The red dot highest budget for any one time is in the range of SGD7-8 billion only, but most of the time is hovering around SGD5 billion. Mat land budget is a bit weird, although on paper they do set aside a sum of money for their yearly expenditure, but it always sway a lot (big cuts or big spendings) depending on their government mood.
P.S. Pls take note of the currency conversion rate between USD-SGD-RM
quote]Originally posted by kenhor:
[b]Originally posted by bigballs11:
Well, the yearly expenditure for red dot defence budget is approx SGD5 billion, divided by our population of 4 million works out about SGD$125/year/head. This compared to our annual GDP of lets say USD$35,000(SGD$61,250)/head works out approx 0.20% load class of our current economy.
In contrast Malaysia yearly defence expenditure is RM12++ billion or SGD6 billion, dividied by their population of 20 million works out about SGD$300/year/head. This compared to their annual GDP of lets say USD$10,000(SGD$17,500)/head works out approx 1.71% load class of their economy.
How did you arrive at the RM18 billion defense budget of military per year for Malaysia?
I am looking at the CIA factbook . Singapore spends 4.3 Billion in 2000 and Malaysia spend 1.8 billion .. how they are going to jump from 1.8 to 4.7 billion in 2 years?[/b][/quote] -
as a shrewd businessman, the solution to your problem is to disband the armed forces. So what to do with our SGD 5 billion dollors? How about spend SGD1 billion as protection money for the US 7th fleet, so they permanently station their troops here to protect us, as for the rest of the SGD 4 billion, will be offered as bonus so each of us can get SGD1000, moreover no NS liabilities Originally posted by kenhor:To Nathan,
My solutions are in some of the posts in page 2. Improve healthcare, care for the aged, sports, education, transport hike deffered, subsidize CPF cut etc. -
To exco
If the cap is only 3%, then we have already exceeded it .. Do a search in the internet .. we can see that the spending for our defense was 6% in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Now in 2000, its at 4.5% .. so way over your figure of 3%
While we see our neighbours spending < 2%. Even if our cap was 3%, how come our neighbours spend less than 2%?
And for your information, their budget also goes to maintaining things that are needing replacement etc. Then also, our spending was so high in the past .. so how come we still have to buy so much today .. for 20+ years, we spend more than the neighbours. And we still are .. so we still will be for the next 10.. how come .. not enough to defend ourselves?
Mind you .. that means that since 1965, (37 years) we have been spending more than malaysia and add on 10 more years (close to 50 years) and we still think it not enough? 50 years of having a military budget higher than malaysia and its not enough? That is sick.
The reason I bring all the FT and Economy into the picture is that I want to show you that the economy and society needs more help presently than our military. I want an improvement in our education. I want lower transport costs. I want better healthcare. I want better local sports performance. I want lower HDB costs. etc. I don't want another submarine or another squardron of F16. -
To bigballs1
If we don't trust the CIA, then how did you also arrive at the RM15 million for Malaysia's budget? Where did you get it from?
I also know that Singapore has probably off balance sheet spending for our military for our certain hush hush units.
So I am taking a realistic figure from a reliable source and comparing it apples to apples. In my figure, Singapore is overspending. -
as a shrewd businessman, the solution to your problem is to disband the armed forces. So what to do with our SGD 5 billion dollors? How about spend SGD1 billion as protection money for the US 7th fleet, so they permanently station their troops here to protect us, as for the rest of the SGD 4 billion, will be offered as bonus so each of us can get SGD1000, moreover no NS liabilities
Haiya . no need to be so big time reaction one . All I am asking and saying is to question our overspending on the military. Noo need to drastically offer our backside for the USA to poke.
We have to learn to question what our government spend on and make them justify it .. good times are not coming (although the govt promised more good years during GE2001)
Don't you all prefer to argue against some clueless 9 year old Malaysian kid rather than me! Easier to bash him right! -
After looking at the discussion going on, I hope to give my two cents worth of opinion.
I agreed that military spending must be kept in check but this does not mean that we should reduce our military spending but rather put it at a cap to a percentage of our GDP if it is not already been done so. We should look at the efficiency of the SAF. I am sure that those who have serve NS will know that there is a lot of wastage in the SAF like stores and how many have actually waited more than 2 hours to go to the next activity. Better scheduling and efficiency could reduce the waiting time and it should not be hurry up and wait. A lot of saving could be done in these areas. But these not mean that we should reduce our spending on military equipment just because we have been spending more than our neighbours for the last few years. Due to the advancement of technology, purchasing military hardware is like buying a computer. You might pay top dollars get the state of the art pc but few years down the road, your computer may not be as good as the present low range computer and it might even be obsolete. Why are our neighbours not spending as much? It is because their economy is badly affected and they do not have much cash to go around (and who would want palm oil for weapon sale) and spend big bucks on the new weapons. Furthermore, their countries do not face many threats. Do you think that they are not jealous that we can spend so much on our defence? They will die to be in our shoe. Because of our size, we need superior weapons to deter our neighbours from harbouring any funny thoughts. Just treat this as a detrimental cost like hospitalisation insurance whereby you will not appreciate it until you are hospitalise but if you do not use it then it goes to waste.
To put more money into healthcare is not good ideas as the cost of healthcare will forever increases. We have already one of the best healthcare in the world and if the government subsides more, it will be a burden to our economy. I have spoke to Danish tourists and in their country healthcare and education are free. But they are paying taxes from 40% - 80%. Therefore the poorest will still have to pay 40% taxes. I shudder at the thought of it happening in Singapore.
Kenmore, investing in sports and art is a good idea but you must understand that we are a young nation and this sector takes time to develop. We should give it a gentle push in the correct direction but they should learn to stand on their own. You mention that Malaysian has groomed youth to become world beater but you must understand that the opportunity cost to remove a person from the labour force and divert it into these sectors are much higher as we have a smaller population and the only resources we have is human capital.
Furthermore, getting the government to pour in more money into the economy is a very bad idea. Take for example the mobile phone industry. Who do we have? Singe, M1 and Star hub are owned in one-way or the other by GLC so what competition do we have. The government should privatise the GLC and allow healthy competition because in this way our company will be battle harden and compete effectively in the global market.
Oops look like I am giving more that twenty cents of opinion.
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Originally posted by kenhor:
I questions your position of the SAF being overfunded... on wat basis do you make such a claim??
[b]as a shrewd businessman, the solution to your problem is to disband the armed forces. So what to do with our SGD 5 billion dollors? How about spend SGD1 billion as protection money for the US 7th fleet, so they permanently station their troops here to protect us, as for the rest of the SGD 4 billion, will be offered as bonus so each of us can get SGD1000, moreover no NS liabilities
Haiya . no need to be so big time reaction one . All I am asking and saying is to question our overspending on the military. Noo need to drastically offer our backside for the USA to poke.
We have to learn to question what our government spend on and make them justify it .. good times are not coming (although the govt promised more good years during GE2001)
Don't you all prefer to argue against some clueless 9 year old Malaysian kid rather than me! Easier to bash him right! [/b]
is this your personal opinion??
For those of you who think defense is high simply because its base on percentage per GDP... i think you are all pretty wrong...
GDP stands for Gross domestic product... aka... all the goods and services produced within the a nation's border irreguardless of who really owns the profit... either foreign or local...
The better measurement should be however base on GNP... which is gross national product... aka... all the money made by SINGAPOREANS only... excluding money that will leave singapore as remitance because its gained from foreign investor's investment...
I ask... isnt it right to base defense spending on GNP rather then GDP simply because the money spend on defense is aimed at protecting singaporeans and its generally money earned by singaporeans....
Based on the above point... malaysia defense spending based on GNP is acutally higher at approx 5 to 6 percent of their GNP... this is becuase much of their GDP (as high as 50 percent) dont belong to malaysians...
On the other hand... singapore defense spending base on GNP is actually less then 4 percent of GNP... this is because... alot of our money are gained from overseas investments...
SO.... in real fact... malaysia spends far more on defense from their available resources compare to singapore which actually spends less despite the figure being higher...
the reasons for the descrepancies is due to the fact that in malaysia their GDP is higher then their GNP (as much as 100 percent higher) while singapore GDP is lower then our GNP...
therefore... it would seems to me... that the MAF is overspending while SAF does not appears to be so if using MAF as comparison...
lastly... about spending on economics... such a policy is termed fiscal measures where govt attempts to prop up local economy by spending huge sums largely on infrastructure and also through susidies... THESE methods cannot work in singapore... because our economy is O P E N.... as such... the money spend thrown into singapore economy would actually ends up in foreigners pocket because our doors (trading) is not CLOSED....
Other measures that the govt can take to boost local economy is by practicising protectionalism... UNFORTUNATELY... its not possible to do that in singapore because our local economy is too small and we are afterall a trading center.... and protectionalism only results in higher prices for singaporeans as it limits foreign competition....
Lastly... any form of protectionalism would invite reprisal protectionalism.... which will affect us even more... in short... it would translate into mass unemployment.. economic implosion...
THerefore... kenhor... go home... light a candle and start reading your economics 101.... -
defense expenditure is base on threats and percieved threats... its also based on who the potential enemy is and wat they have...Originally posted by kenhor:I actually been to both India and Indonesia . they do not spend so much money on military .. true India is spening more money than Singapore, but its less in PER CAPITA basis .. 2.5% vs our 4.5%
We are not poor. But our ecomony is supporting a white elephant. We have to get rid of it. Reduce our expenditure in terms of % per capita.
Why want to compare to India and Indonesia when we can compare to Australia or Malaysia? We must compare with the better countries .. not the worst.
YOU DONT BASED DEFENSE EXPENDITURE ON PER CAPITAL... only KUKU idiot do that.....
SAF performs a functions which is crucial and is dependent on sufficient adequate funding to perform its task... it only becomes a white elephant when you reduce its fundings... thereby reducing its deterrence value ... and thus becomes ineffective... then its called a white elephant... because it can no serve its purpose...
AND... excessive spendings on defence at times actually enhances its deterrence value as the enemy would be worried of wat secret abilities that the SAF might be developing.... -
Originally posted by kenhor:
if CIA factbook can be trusted... your uncle sam wont need a GAO to check up on pentagon....
[b]Originally posted by bigballs11:
Well, the yearly expenditure for red dot defence budget is approx SGD5 billion, divided by our population of 4 million works out about SGD$125/year/head. This compared to our annual GDP of lets say USD$35,000(SGD$61,250)/head works out approx 0.20% load class of our current economy.
In contrast Malaysia yearly defence expenditure is RM12++ billion or SGD6 billion, dividied by their population of 20 million works out about SGD$300/year/head. This compared to their annual GDP of lets say USD$10,000(SGD$17,500)/head works out approx 1.71% load class of their economy.
How did you arrive at the RM18 billion defense budget of military per year for Malaysia?
I am looking at the CIA factbook . Singapore spends 4.3 Billion in 2000 and Malaysia spend 1.8 billion .. how they are going to jump from 1.8 to 4.7 billion in 2 years?[/b]
And who can be sured how much malaysia really spend??
For your info... the CIA factbook only listed annual millitary spending without taking into account other spendings, special provisions and hidden spendings that the MAF may really be entitiled too...
and while it is true that SAF too may have secret fundings... but then the questions becomes.. how you know singapore spends more on defense then malaysia?? how you know the figure is true??
but it seems that you are pretty confident of the numerical numbers provided by so and so... that you are here declaring that SAF is overspending... i ask... your logic upside down one har/???
and while aussies may spend less... but make no mistake... they have to pay for it in other ways... such as sending their men to fight alongside americans to ensure americans alliance... they may also have to give up some of the soveriegn rights by kowtowing to the americans once in a while....
SO... there are prices to be paid for security... if not monetary, then it will be exacted from the nations in other forms and manners... nothing is free in this world.... -
we can question... only if first you use your brain.... instead of your ass....Originally posted by kenhor:Dear Nathan,
Why so afraid of pulling the military budget into it?
Its a white elephant and must be questioned.
When there are increases in our healthcare and transport and a cut in our cpf .. why can 't we question about our military defence budget?
Mind you .. I am only questioning .. why can't we question? You know of any skeletons in the closet that you can share?
increases in prices... i beg to ask... which prices never increases?? do your salary always goes up?? well... somebody gotta pay for it...
ITS CALLED INFLATION... just in case you dont know....
and lastly... you didnt question SAF spending... remember... you declared SAF a white elephant... therefore... you already believe that is the point, the truth.
and that wat you really want is not to discuss or questions... you simply wants others to accept your presumptive position based on paper figures from the internet....
FOR GOD SAKE.... have a brain... be responsible.. you are talking about national defense... the defense of your mother, wife ,children and your own freedom.... DO you not think that your mother and wife and children are worth defending??? perhaps you should tell your girlfriend that defending her is a chor and simply too expensive an affair... perhaps she should consider surrendering her body to the enemy for your cowardly sake.... -
lastly... please do not consider this a personal attack... but i think
that based on your post kenhor....
YOU lack mature thoughts...
YOU lack sufficient information...
YOU lack experience and understanding in gobal affairs...
AND lastly you seems to lack a spine....
finally i offer my apologies for the above points... BUT i sincerely thinks you should read up more, see more, experience more, talk to more people and finally think more before you speaks....