Singapore Economy underfunded compared to military
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somebody's trying to start a flame war... come now, lets put things back in their proper perspective. u don't make a point by disagreeing with everyone.Originally posted by tripwire:bionix???
sar21??
...... wat you blabbering about now??
wat non-millitary organization to help millitary orgainization??? wat you trying to say??? how is this statement linked to sar21 or sar32 and bionix or bibinix???
Waaahhh..... eh.... your english is really impecable leh!! i think your screw is loose.... muahahahaaaaaa.....
the point everyone (except asdfg2) is trying to say is that there is a good balance between military spendings and economic concerns. its not a zero sum game: we need a strong military to survive politically and economically.
is too much money being spent on the military at the economy's expense? i think thats a wrong question to ask. the question we should be asking is, is the money being spent efficiently and i think yes. Sg has one of the cleanest, most efficient procurement procedures in the region (if not the world). -
tt is wat i wanna say
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"its not a zero sum game: we need a strong military to survive politically and economically. "
Strong or expeditory? Yes it does become a zero sum game when monies is used to purchase foreign equipment. Does it create local employment or does it develop any local-owned industries?
Thus it is NOT wrong to ask whether increased miltary hardware spending and not miltary spending itself. If miltary spending is part of a Keynesian effort to boost the economy and it works, then great.
I would not deign to say Sg makes efficient arms procurment. Prove it and not just iyho. Uncorrupt yes.
Also read the newspapers? the best way for Singapore to fall is go to war. Period. Does projecting an image of an aggressive army makes negotiations and relationships more favorable? U decide. -
oh yea??? then how come you dont say it properly??Originally posted by duotiga83:tt is wat i wanna say
and dont think too highly of yourself... from all the post you posted so far... there is no way you could write out in proper sentence as good as CX...
so stop piggy back others... got word learn to speak like a man... not like a chicken....
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Projecting the image of a capable and aggressive army does make negotiations and relationships more favourable.Originally posted by asdfg2:so read the newspapers? the best way for Singapore to fall is go to war. Period. Does projecting an image of an aggressive army makes negotiations and relationships more favorable? U decide. -
ook. 1 question: you wan to start a flame war with mi?
yes i admit my english is bad....since u say until like tt i have nothing to say......i not piggyback some1 comments, i jus support his 'theory'. -
first... please write in a reasonably understandable comprehensible english.... its the key to put forward your position, ideas and thoughts.....Originally posted by duotiga83:Quote from tripwire:
quote :
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Originally posted by asdfg2:
Now I am certain that tripwire is a stupid and childish adolescent passing off as a biotech and econs major. If every Singaporean was so devoid of brains like you, there would be nobody going to university.
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if everyone is as naive and as stupid as you... i will be your emperor!! hahahaaaaaa.........
BOW DOWN DOG.... muahahaa,,.......
u think u are the most clever 1?
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quote:
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Originally posted by duotiga83:
oh well oh well.....i do read the post from head to tail of it.....and i juz wan to say that u put too much empahasis on military technologies and neglected the econs of the country. Regarding all those so call terror war, i have make my stand. U need a balance of it. STRONG N BRAVE. get it?
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BURP!!!!
wat did your asshole just spewed out??
OH.... you read all the post from head to tail?? then how come your reply seems to make no sense one???
obviously...... then your english must be sibeh jialat ........
simply read and read again until you really understand......
[This message was edited by tripwire on 2002-09-19 22:26:30.] n again is ur brain is so clever that you know everithing on the tip of ur head?
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quote:
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Originally posted by duotiga83:
how do u explain the creation of bionix? sar21? and so on n so forth. u need non-military organizations to help military organizations 2.
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bionix???
sar21??
...... wat you blabbering about now??
wat non-millitary organization to help millitary orgainization??? wat you trying to say??? how is this statement linked to sar21 or sar32 and bionix or bibinix???
Waaahhh..... eh.... your english is really impecable leh!! i think your screw is loose.... muahahahaaaaaa..... 4 the 3rd time, are u the most clever 1s in the world? i thought u say this forums is to c the views of other ppl.
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Fine with mi.....well i am nuts on econs, i admit it but pls i stress again.....dun let the current issue on terrorism issues cloud ur mind. To any1 else ..i give u a priveliged to flame mi all u wan( which includes u)....i juz want to b a fundamentalist not an idealist. dun b so proud when nxt time the stock market will come crashing down in the years to come.
Since u are clever...wat are ur proposal? n would u send ur comments to the press? or even to the government?
So... could you rewrite your questions properly so that it is at least comprehensible... in order to enable me to answer you....
YOUR ANG MO SUCKS!!!
no flame here. its a fact... -
fine with mi since u look down on pple's commands of words.
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theory??? wat theory??? ai yo yo..... CX merely rephrase your position and then subsequently think that you are WRONG!!... and you support his 'theory'????Originally posted by duotiga83:ook. 1 question: you wan to start a flame war with mi?
yes i admit my english is bad....since u say until like tt i have nothing to say......i not piggyback some1 comments, i jus support his 'theory'.
this is ..... funny and weird..... so you support CX's position that you are WRONG??? ... hm.....
OK... you not piggy back him... you just kicked yourself into the longkang..... -
i look down on your command of words??? or am i merely stating a fact?Originally posted by duotiga83:fine with mi since u look down on pple's commands of words.
i didnt look down on your command of english, IT IS YOUR feeling of embarrasment and self-inferiority that give rise to YOUR perception that I LOOK DOWN ON YOU.... so.... who told you that i look down on you?
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5 words to describe u: U are way too much
to CX, thanks 4 rephrase my thoughts. -
Guys guys... lets keep our heads and dun spoil the quality of the forum with this trivial matters ok?
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Originally posted by asdfg2:"its not a zero sum game: we need a strong military to survive politically and economically. "
Strong or expeditory? Yes it does become a zero sum game when monies is used to purchase foreign equipment. Does it create local employment or does it develop any local-owned industries?
Thus it is NOT wrong to ask whether increased miltary hardware spending and not miltary spending itself. If miltary spending is part of a Keynesian effort to boost the economy and it works, then great.
I would not deign to say Sg makes efficient arms procurment. Prove it and not just iyho. Uncorrupt yes.
Also read the newspapers? the best way for Singapore to fall is go to war. Period. Does projecting an image of an aggressive army makes negotiations and relationships more favorable? U decide. -
papers??? who said that.. a human right?? its not GOD right?? so.... read it with a ton of salt ......i wont deny nor accept such a possibility....Originally posted by asdfg2:"its not a zero sum game: we need a strong military to survive politically and economically. "
Strong or expeditory? Yes it does become a zero sum game when monies is used to purchase foreign equipment. Does it create local employment or does it develop any local-owned industries? strong and expeditory..... isnt the two the same?? being strong does give one the ability to be expeditory... likewise... how to be expeditory if one is not strong? zero sum game..... between military spending and economic spending??? well... the resource are finite... no doubt about it... but it must be understood that a strong military does in forms or kinds helps to boost the local economy if not at the very least provide the local economy the security to conduct its day to day buissness.... the world that we live in are not merely measured in terms of economy, there are political factors to be considered and where politics is involved... military are usually part and parcel of it. secondly... millitary spendings does result in employment of a large number of singaporeans in the form of soldiers, pilots, sailors and blah blah blah... these people will through the ripple effect pass down their salary to others when they purchase goods and services in the market.... and as such forms a critical source of customers for many industries and firms.... in short... the military is part of the local economy... if the govt remove the millitary portion in its fiscal policy and shuts down the army... many non military personnel together with military personnel would loose their jobs as well due to a sudden lost of demand for certain goods and service.. and the ripple effect could be so great that the economy could literary shrunk!! you see.. the problem is that you make a mistake in looking at the govt expenditure based on a particular ministry.... the govt expenditure needs to be seen in its totality... because eventually... whether the govt spends the money through MOH, MOE, MINDEF or MOM or LTA or wat noughts.... these money would eventually filtered downward to the rest of the economy creating demand, jobs, opportunity and economic growth.... in times of financial crisis... the govt maintain spending on defense is effective a form of fiscal economic boost to the local economy by enabling the SAF to continue to purchase goods and services from local firms as usual, thus at least the people under SAF employement or any other govt dept employment would still have their salary and they will continue to demand their usual goods and services from the local economy, thus ensuring a certain level of local support for the local economy... this is something that we must understand. its a keynesian model... now we come to purchasing of foreign equipment... this question should be resolved economically through efficiency rather than through nationalism... it is through trade that the economy of nations flourish as we exploit each other's comparative advantage... if the french can build warships cheaper and more efficient than our local shipyard... that we should buy french... this is the economic position (INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIST)... the alternative is to have everything build locally, design locally and have every screw and nuts produced locally even if its gonna cost us 10 times more... that my friend looks stupid, but its a belief that some economist insist is correct (the DEVELOPMENT ECONOMIST) especially the moronic professors from London school of economics.... which even LKY call their theory BULLSHIT.... i agreed with LKY.
Thus it is NOT wrong to ask whether increased miltary hardware spending and not miltary spending itself. If miltary spending is part of a Keynesian effort to boost the economy and it works, then great. since you understood that millitary spending as a whole actually is part of a fiscal measure to boost or at least sustain the local economy... i am glad... but i need to stress... IF every nation only trade within their own borders... you and I in singapore would be eating grass and chewing concrete.... we need trade... trade to exploit each others strength and comparative advantage... by this... it would imply that where the local firms are less efficient... the jobs should be taken by a foreign yard...but understandably... under the same system... of comparative advantage... singapore will also build some of the same goods locallly.... and hopefully with the foreign purchase... will come transfer of technology and skills that will enable the singapore firm to move their CA upward.
I would not deign to say Sg makes efficient arms procurment. Prove it and not just iyho. Uncorrupt yes. how do you expect him to prove something like this?? bring you through an actual procurement exercise?? well.... i think the best you will get is a statement from some connected source as vindication of that.
Also read the newspapers? the best way for Singapore to fall is go to war. Period. Does projecting an image of an aggressive army makes negotiations and relationships more favorable? U decide. -
and wat about the part where he thinks that you are wrong and you so conveniety longkang yourself into the sewer???Originally posted by duotiga83:5 words to describe u: U are way too much
to CX, thanks 4 rephrase my thoughts.
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its times like these that i wished i had just kept quite and not posted anything...Originally posted by tripwire:and wat about the part where he thinks that you are wrong and you so conveniety longkang yourself into the sewer???
i neither agreed nor disagreed with anybody! just wanted to bring up a new dimension to the discussion: that its not how much u spend but how u spend it.
the two resident economists of this thread have been having a great time talking about their specialties and i've sure learnt a lot...
and Tripwire
i agree with the international economists too... the development theories don't make much sense anymore because it is impossible in this day and age to insulate your economy from external influences. one word: globalization.
the only economy today not open to international trade and only limited regional ones, is the democratic peoples republic of korea... and they're starving!
and asdfg2
actually, i can show that arms procurements are uncorrupt and moderately efficient. agree to disagree on this one but make your arguments factual and at least with slight pretensions to objectivity...
the SAF started looking for a replacement for the m16 nearly a decade ago and ST in response developed and attempted to sell to mindef the SAR80 and SAR88... other threads have dealt with the specs of these weapons in greater detail and imo, they're not very impressive.
did mindef place a large order just because it was built by a GLC and a local company? no. they bought a batch, tried it out, thought it sucked and told them go to hell.
it made more sense to keep using the m16 then as they it was still widely used and those in service were still serviceable. if mindef had been a captive market for ST junk, then they would have spent millions on replacing the m16 with a not-very-impressive weapon and spent millions more 2 years ago to replace that not-very-impressive weapon with the SAR21.
if thats not efficient procurement, then tell me what it? could u perhaps cite an occassion where an inefficient procurement was made or perceived to have been made? -
Weapons have never been produced by Military organizations, unless they are of a erm, highly secret, all-powerful kind. Steyr who produces military rifles for armies all over, is NOT a military organization is it? Heckler and Koch is not owned by any military, nor Colt, nor Smith and wesson, no, not even lockheed martin is actually owned by the US Government.Originally posted by duotiga83:how do u explain the creation of bionix? sar21? and so on n so forth. u need non-military organizations to help military organizations 2.
This is how weapons are produced around the world, with joint ventures eg. Eurofighter and collaborations between companies to put out a finished product. So whats the big problem about the SAR-21 and Bionix being produced by non-military organizations since that IS the norm. Hell, even Kalashinikovs aren't owned by the Russian government. Not even Sukhoi or MiG-MAPO so to speak.
And whoever that asdfg is, its not nice to call anybody names here.
Regarding Singapore's military growth. We must maintain a strong military, not only strong in defense, but powerful in offense to achieve a swift victory. A strong defense without an offense WILL one day give way. Building Singapore into an expeditionary force, = potential offensive capabilities. This is what people (potential aggressors) are afraid of. To cause the enemy great losses in both men&equipment and in loss of territory. If this does not convince you, think logically. If Singapore was to get into a war, it has to be a swift one. One that does not drag so our economy can recover quickly. A powerful offense would ensure that. Without it, any war will last as long as the enemy wants it, simply because, we cannot attain victory over them.
Therefore, powerful expeditionary force : YES
Increase Defense Spending : YES (When necessary)
Increase spendings now : YES, its is absolutely necessary these days.
Think about it. Israel didn't survive til today because it sat back, turtling, waiting for her enemies to run out of supplies and ammunition. She counter-attacked her enemies, driving them back to where they came from and beyond. And that is only because, she had powerful tanks, a then-advanced airforce, and well-trained soldiers and precise-to-the-second artillerymen. -
well said...i agree with you shotgun..
as quoted in Tim Huxley's book... 'we are the Israel of Southeast Asia'. -
asdfg2
In your view, military hardware spending is not part of military spending. That I must say is a flawed view. Any military expenditure in any armed forces in the world inludes a substantial amount set aside for hardware replacement as well as for upgrading. And that's military spending for you in case you do not know.
In your argument, you said that a country with strong army might not be necessary to be an economic superpower. Let's examine an example, Japan. The reason that Japan is not strong militarily is because her constitution does not allow a strong military due to her role in WW2. Looking at her defense force, it is also not difficult to see that as of now, it possesses one of the most advanced military hardware in that region. Even China is wary of Japan. Do you think other nation is not eyeing a piece of Japan? I don't think so.
Looking back at singapore, the picture here is not as rosy as it seems. Sandwiched between 2 "relatively" hostile land mass, a less than strong military is going to attract lots of meddling in our internal affairs. Imagine, if SAF does not get this expensive hardware when sg was still a young nation, do you think you and I could enjoy the economic success we have now? Chances are we will be even worse off than malaysia. No MNCs will invest in a country which is not secure. There are countless example out there, look at some countries in the africa continent. Why are they still living in poverty? It is because of their war with other neighbours over the decades that caused it.
Projecting a an image of an aggressive army shows prospective investors that sg is secure enough and there is no worries of their investments going down the drain. Likewise, the military in sg is meant to be a warning to any troublemakers that we will hit them hard if we have to in order to protect our economy.
Finally, I don't know what your problem is with the current defense spending and I am glad you are not any defense advisor. Should that happen, I will dread what holds for the future of Singapore. -
i seem to have heard u quote tim huxley more than once... at least 3 times in fact...Originally posted by kY|e-_-o:well said...i agree with you shotgun..
as quoted in Tim Huxley's book... 'we are the Israel of Southeast Asia'.
i've read the book and i am telling u now, that it is NOT the bible of SAF capabilities so will u PLEASE read and quote from somewhere else
i don't like the israel of se asia lable too because the similarities ends with the fact that we are surrounded by muslim neighbours! it is certainly not a strategically accurate picture and it is certainly overly alarmist and pessimistic in its implications.
nobody expects our neighbours to push us into the sea (except for the maniac JI people they arrested recently)
the closest u ever get is some mats yelling across the causeway telling u to pay more for water!
a little knowledge is a dangerous thing... -
The lack of intelligence is killing me here, so I had better speak slowly:
1) Did I say miltary hardware purchases is not part of miltary spending:
Your buddy is arguing that a strong and aggressive miltary creates a strong economy. Is that rational? give you a moment to think whether it is true. (I can give a full blown argument, complete with counterexamples but then I may be wasting my breath with irrational people). China is wary of Japan, because of wartime aggression in the past and China never had designs on Japan ever.
2) Israel of SEA?!! If Sg is ever like Israel, even for a day, Sg will dead or crippled. Sure we should occupy Johor now or in the future right, so that we aren't caught "turtling".
3) Just think of a war Sg's image projected by an aggressive force. Just think of Japan's image of an aggressive army and it's effect on ties with its neighbours.
As much as whoever it is is happy that I am not a defence advisor, Sg is glad that they have u ppl as diplomats or policy makers. Otherwise you ppl fall into a JI trap without a doubt.
And kudos to all the rugrats with their peashooters for not examining the need, cause and effect of war on Sg. -
Imagine in the distant future:
Sucide bombers in occupied Johor. -
Only way that Sg can have a swift war is that it has American's miltary or that My or Indo have parang men.
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CX: Uncorruptability can be easily proven; however efficiency is not. We are not miltary experts and cannot give a benchmark on what is efficient or not. Plain common sense is not optimum efficiency; and miltary hardware's efficiency procurment efficiency may not be accurately measured in economical terms. So facts gathered must neccessarily be lengthy and the peruser of sufficent knowledge.
Strong vs expeditorary?
Anti ballistic missles. A larger, well-trained, well-paid professional army. A few ballistic missles. Subs. Anti-Subs.
Sg's aircraft carrier and/or long range stealth bomber. Arsenal of Ballisitic missles. Crusier. Destoryer
Oh yeah tripwire, please stopt faking your age and your credentials. If someone was to take you seriously, then it is an bad indication that adults can have such juevenile minds and tendencies in Singapore. -
"but i need to stress... IF every nation only trade within their own borders... you and I in singapore would be eating grass and chewing concrete.... we need trade... trade to exploit each others strength and comparative advantage... by this... it would imply that where the local firms are less efficient... the jobs should be taken by a foreign yard...but understandably... under the same system... of comparative advantage... singapore will also build some of the same goods locallly.... and hopefully with the foreign purchase... will come transfer of technology and skills that will enable the singapore firm to move their CA upward. "
Trade. Define trade. Then products. Define products. Under system of abosulte compartive advantage, Sg will not be building a lot of things it is building now.